FinOpsPod Year End 2024

Speaker A: Hi, this is Sam Benson. And, um, this is the world famous Finops Pod.

Speaker B: Good job.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Now, do you want to see how hard it is for Joe to do the exact same thing? You ready, Joe?

Speaker B: What, for the regular intro?

Speaker C: Yeah, a regular intro.

Speaker B: There's no. This is.

Speaker C: Here we go. You ready?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Hi, this is Stacey Case.

Speaker B: And, uh, I'm Joe Daly.

Speaker A: 200% every time.

Speaker C: And this is Finops Pod.

Speaker B: And this is Finops Pod.

Speaker C: With special guest.

Speaker B: With special guest today, Sam Benson.

Speaker C: I wanted to make it a real formal name, but I don't know your middle name. I was going to say Samuel Sammenton.

Speaker A: Samuel James Benson.

Speaker C: With our special guest, Mr. Samuel James Benson.

Speaker B: Stacy, how you doing today?

Speaker C: Well, Joe, I'm doing great. How are you doing?

Speaker B: It's a great day to do Finops.

Speaker C: Aw, shucks. That was cute and corny and I like it.

Speaker B: That's my new catchphrase. Well, this is the end of your episode, meaning that we've successfully continued to put out podcast episodes for another year.

Speaker C: How many years is this now, by the way? Is this two full years? Three years?

Speaker B: We've done two full years. We are marching into three full years in March. March 2025 will be the third year marching into March. Marching into March.

Speaker C: March will be three years. That's amazing.

Speaker B: March 2025. We will be three years old. Thanos pod will be three years old. It could walk on its own without any assistance. It'll be out of diapers and,

Speaker C: uh, so many things. Just keep packing.

Speaker B: But it still needs a nap time.

Speaker C: It's the same.

Speaker A: Still needs. Don't we all?

Speaker C: Don't we all?

Speaker B: Yeah. And our year end episode, we bring on a staff member and we talk about what just happened over the last 12 months. And this year is a hard one. This year's a tough one.

Speaker A: It's been a big year. Big year.

Speaker B: So much stuff.

Speaker C: A lot of things have happened, not only within the community, but events. Like there's been a ton of things. When you started writing a list of. Here's the things we should talk about. Don't tell them we. Things I don't know anything about. Yeah. That was you being prepared. I was very impressed.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: I forgot that all these things happened this year, so.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: All right. Do you want to just dive in?

Speaker B: Dive in.

Speaker C: I feel like we usually have, like, a preamble because we're introducing a guest. Well, yeah, actually, that is good, because not everybody knows Mr. Samuel James Benson.

Speaker A: Not everybody does. Yeah.

Speaker B: Sam is basically the glue that makes all of this Work.

Speaker A: That's a big statement, Joe.

Speaker C: That's a lot of ego building there. But I'm not going to disagree.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's so many things going on and Sam pretty much makes it possible. Otherwise it'd be very, very, very hard to do everything that happens.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think when we were in re invent somebody asked what you did and I was standing there and I was like, how do you say what Sam does? And when I start listing all the things and I'll list a few here, all of the things that he has done or is working on currently, it's like, whew, better wrap this man in bubble wrap and not let anything happen to him.

Speaker A: He's not allowed to cross roads on his own anymore.

Speaker C: Exactly. Sam is really part of our, we call it our shared services teams. But really what Sam does is you like our website. Thanks Sam. No, Sam does all the coding. He's like the backend developer for that, I don't know, builds the apps for things, makes m. All of the programs talk to each other. This is really bad because we're spin offs and people are technical and I'm using stupid language like that. So Joe, you go on.

Speaker B: He does the thing, he connects the thing to the other thing.

Speaker C: He connects. So when you see the memes of like the pictures and all the strings and they're attached to the tacks, Sam is all of the strings, he connects the pictures and the tacks. No, really? Really Sam, you um, describe what you do instead of us because that would be better for you.

Speaker A: Well now you've shared in the difficulty that I have describing my job to anybody dying. I am the lead developer FinOps Foundation. So I work with our uh, amazing design team and all of the beautiful things that they design, I make them work and I uh, connect the dots and so all of the websites that we have, the apps for the events, that's all me. That's it. I'm a developer basically. And at the events I also run registration. So you'll see my bearded smiley face at the reg desks printing badges and saying hi to everybody.

Speaker C: So yeah, if you're not sure whether it's J.R. or Sam, it's probably Sam. If you're like questioning. There has been some confusion especially we'll get into it maybe at xe about a pillow we can get into that. But yeah, he's a. Sam is a smiley face that you'll see a lot of the registration.

Speaker B: Super friendly, super smart at ah, making

Speaker C: things happen and it's gross, it's really pathetic how talented he is. It's really disgusting.

Speaker A: Guys, I'm gonna have to come back again. This is great. This is great.

Speaker C: Listen, trust me, by the time this gets published, you might not think so

Speaker B: when I listen back to this, if I'm like, oh, uh, this is too much. I'm gonna delete it. So I'll delete. I'll scale it back, be like, sam's good.

Speaker C: Sam awesome.

Speaker B: I'll take it.

Speaker A: I'll take it.

Speaker B: So we had, basically, there are like tent poles. From a Finops foundation staff perspective, there are tent poles in the year and usually those tent poles are community events, big ones being Finops X. This year we had Finops X Europe as well. We also had a number of community days that plus virtual summits. We were at Google Next, we were at AWS Re Invent. There were a lot of events and it's hard to remember them all. So, Stacy, you start. What? Start, start. What are you remembering for the events?

Speaker C: Well, I kind of going to that. It is hard to think of them all because on staff we have a tendency to think of our years as June to June because it's Finops X to Finops X. A lot of times you'll hear us say last year. And then someone says, you mean January? I'm like, oh, yeah, that's still this year. The real yet the real year. This is the real year. I mean, listen, I think it's gonna be really easy. We could talk a lot about the Finops X and Finops X Europe, which was just an amazing event. But we really did more community days where we're bringing people together. I was able to go to the Washington D.C. one where is a public and private sector event. And looking back on how we first started with our events where we would go out and maybe do a couple hours of content, a little bit of networking and then say things. Thanks for coming. So even over a year ago, just going to Washington D.C. doing that, and then this year it's like two full tracks of content, a chalk talk track. I mean, it's a lot. It's not just the community days have become these mini conferences where it's one day that is solid content that is relevant to the community members, that the community members are presenting on. And things are coming out of it that we're actioning on. So it's not even like that's a nice idea and then it just falls to the wayside. It's things are coming out of that that then we're actioning on. And bringing back into the broader community. So that was without going into X and M. Xe that was one of the things that I noticed is just how wonderful it is, that progression from where we were 18 months ago with uh, an event, an in person event to what we're doing now. And it's kind of phenomenal. And I'm going to do it right now. I'm going to be the one that shouts out our event director, Jessica Brandis, who puts on all of these events. I think people don't realize, you think of X and X Europe of what she's done. But all of these community day events, she's the one that's finding these really cool, unique locations for us to go to and making sure that behind the scenes things are smooth and painless so that the community members can show up and just have this amazing experience. And I think that's, that's really neat

Speaker B: to see just to give that team a shout out. Sam, Jessica, uh, James and Tom, these are all the people that make us look good. Like if they weren't here doing it, I would just.

Speaker C: I've seen your design work. It's not great.

Speaker B: This would be an Excel file is basically. So let's start with June FinOps X. So second year in San Diego, third FinOp X overall. Do you guys remember there was a marriage proposal at uh, that event?

Speaker A: There was on the midway.

Speaker C: That was crazy. That was there gonna be a wedding this year then.

Speaker B: I'm hoping that's a breakout session.

Speaker C: I want you to be the flower girl if it is.

Speaker A: Oh, I'd pay to see that.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker C: That's kind of crazy that there was a marriage proposal at fan off sex. That was amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah. With. With uh, California Tom Cruise.

Speaker B: California Tom Cruise is there midway. It just, it seems like a million years ago. I know it was only five, six months.

Speaker A: It really does.

Speaker B: It seems really far away. And we're starting right now, we're starting work on next year's Finops X. And so I already kind of visualized that. So I'm trying to differentiate plans and reality of what happened, but just great content coming out of that. And I think one of the themes this year is every event we do like the community is able to build on the past content to keep iterating on. Great, great presentations to share, which is

Speaker C: a great signal of our community and what they're capable of and what makes me really excited even for, for the next round of uh, content proposals. The community shows up with content and great ideas and lets us know what they want to hear for sure.

Speaker B: Well and there was a big theme coming out of finops X that mhm. There are no runners. And I remember when JR proposed that as a theme I was like oh, I hate it. No one's gonna like it attracts. But I know, I mean that's just, that's usually the seal of approval. Uh, it's gonna be really successful. Um, if Joe hates it, Joe's always

Speaker C: like lags a little behind. Yeah.

Speaker B: But it is so funny six months later if you, if you disagree with there are no runners. You're not paying attention to the industry. There are so much change and so many new technologies like AI, um, just change in business landscape. There's just a ton of work that needs to go into continuing rebuilding your business processes and finops processes. And what I was really surprised at there was someone that I was talking to him, I was like what do you feel about this? There are no runners. Because in my mind envisioned this person as leading a run mature level organization. And he said oh, this takes so much pressure off. Uh, just like it was so much better. He said nobody sees how much work goes into maintaining the appropriate level. And it's always a struggle to stay at the right level. And sometimes we let something go down so that we can focus on something else. And it's just really affirming to hear that not everyone's doing everything at the highest level all the time. And so when a very experienced person says that to me, I was like, oh, uh, we hit it.

Speaker A: It's a good point as well that it's a foundation of actually having a finops practice. Right. Is that you're adaptable and you're resilient and you can change and it's okay to not be running all the time. It's okay to walk on some things and focus on other things. I think we were Talking about it, JR was talking about it back in 2022 at the London Roadshow where he mentioned being resilient and always being open to change and having to adapt as you go along. And now we're pointing it out now and saying hey, it's okay. This is part of the finlance practice. Change is a good thing.

Speaker C: Mhm. I think it's important too. Like you said, it takes the pressure off of them to feel like they have to perform at a certain level and also gives them the permission to, to do that change and not feel stagnant and maybe adopt something new. And if it doesn't work to either iterate or revert Back to what was working. Doing finops is not so rigid that you don't have that flexibility and you need to be able to iterate and change and there's going to be sometimes feel like two steps forward, one step back, but other times it's going to feel like you're sprinting, you're doing so great and it's just that you sound bolt of like you just got it. You're just gliding at that point. That's awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm going to show off that I've done my research here. Right. I've seen one of our inside posts by Rob. Mine described the whole there are no runners as being like phenops is like tending a garden. Right. So, you know, one minute you're aerating the soil and you're getting all ready to go and that's your primary production. You get really good at that and all of a sudden you have to shift because then suddenly you're talking about pruning and weeding and it's okay to shift your focus from that thing that you were really good at and you were running at to something else. I thought it's really poignant. It's a really good point.

Speaker C: Totally. Do you know he's a master gardener?

Speaker B: Is he really?

Speaker A: Is he that? No, wait, I don't feel I was going to say I'm surprised by that. But it's Rob.

Speaker D: It's Rob.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: I'm surprised by that.

Speaker C: He can bring a Guardian analogy into anything.

Speaker B: When does he have the time? Is December 11th. I just took tomatoes down. They're like bricks. I have no idea how they were staying standing up.

Speaker C: I looked at a plant today that obviously was not supposed to stay outside in the cold, and I knew that and I still didn't bring it in. And today it's like, like falling over.

Speaker A: Maybe you need to talk to Rob.

Speaker B: All right, well, Rob's a master gardener. We learn new things all the time.

Speaker C: Hey, can we talk about Ex Europe though, really quick again? Not to give Sam too big of an ego, but for the folks that were at XE Europe. So Sam built our registration system for FinOps X, which is amazing for all of our event stuff. But we also listened from finops X there was a great agenda page where you would have to log in to it, but you couldn't save things. So Sam built an app that we were able to get released by X Europe that allowed you to save all of your items that you wanted to see, favorite them. Um, have that really like real time on your phone. It's really cool. But the coolest thing about it is Sam was getting real time feedback from folks at X Europe and then spending the evening up implementing it and implementing the changes. He's like, yep, that's good. Let me see if I can do that. And then he was showing us the next day like, this is how I'm going to do this. So Sam built an app and then was real time implementing changes based on feedback of, uh, participants at X Europe this year.

Speaker A: That is cool.

Speaker C: Wait till X in June to see what the latest iteration is. Good job, Sam.

Speaker A: Thank you. I had some really good direct feedback as I. And that feedback is actually influencing the next version of the app for, uh, x25.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker A: So thank you everybody that gave me feedback. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Maybe that's how we describe what Sam does. He is the community's developer.

Speaker A: I like that. I really like that. That's great.

Speaker B: There we go.

Speaker A: I'll take that.

Speaker C: Nailed it, nailed it, nailed it. But as far as the rest of X Europe, unbelievable, unbelievable. Barcelona. We had the weather. We had a beautiful weather start and then it rained and stormed. But it was so dramatic and perfect because we were able to enjoy it from this gorgeous venue. Just looking out at the stormy waters of the beach and having a nice cozy chat inside with community members. And I mean, the sponsors that were there were outstanding. Like, they just were so lovely. The community members that showed up were just amazing. The content was phenomenal. Did we talk a lot about AI at that one? Yes, yes, we did.

Speaker B: Lots of AI.

Speaker C: Um, yes, yes, we did.

Speaker B: AI was a huge topic at, uh, Finops X Europe.

Speaker C: And I'm not going to name any names on this one because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. But one of my favorite things that came out of there was talking to someone at the end because I kept seeing these two women together the whole entire time. Finally, by the end, I'm like, why did you guys travel together? Did you come together? Do you work together? And it was very much like, oh, no, I just met her on day one and now we connect over work. But this is like a lifelong friend vibe that I have now with this person. Like, it was so supportive, uh, like connecting through networking and working and they do the same thing. But it was also just like a connection, just on a human level, like, dude, I like you, I totally hang out with you type of vibe. And we saw that again and again there. It was super fun to see and experience because, um, as Joe and I learned quickly, a Lot of these people didn't know who we were.

Speaker B: Oh my God.

Speaker A: That's true. That's very true.

Speaker B: Where do you work? What do you do there? I host a podcast.

Speaker C: I'm employee number one.

Speaker A: Yeah, that was an eye opener.

Speaker B: It was a good time. And, and that's, I think that's the goal. One of the goals for next year is to keep that vibe, that open, engaging vibe going. We're shifting into FinOps X 2025 and there's so many great lessons learned from last year. And from what we heard a lot from the people, uh, who attended FinOps X Europe were all of these different themes that, that were coming, uh, together or merging. And it's interesting because there are a lot of different approaches to this. Uh, so I'll, I'll mention finops Scopes. There were very passionate debates about this, um, finops Scopes and basically that represents, it's a reflection that Finops practitioners are being asked to extend their purview past public cloud spend. Some are being asked to do SaaS management, some are asked to be license management, some are asking to assist with on prem capacity management. However, every company is doing this differently. So it's really interesting to see what are the best practices that are going to emerge and what are the problems you're going to want to avoid in this space. Because I talked to Jordi Esperanza in Barcelona and he was like, hey, this is a Pandora's box. You're opening up to a brand new set of people who have their own preconceived notion of what I do. And, and I have to spend a lot of time um, re establishing what this is and how we can help. And there are others who say we've been doing this the entire time. Chris Reed from Priceline shared an excellent talk about how to manage SaaS. So that's really interesting to see how that's impacting practitioners across the globe. Stacy, what other topics started emerging?

Speaker C: Well Joe, we really did talk a lot about how adding the term focus confuses all of our conversations because it can no longer say focus in any conversation without someone thinking it is focused. Well, if we could go back to Finops X, probably the biggest topic that we're talking back in June and it continues to be a uh, through line through the whole year is obviously around focus. Right. That is just something that's continuing to grow. We released an introduction to Focus course that was free this year we released the then up certified Focus Analyst to support it in adoption.

Speaker A: I'm really happy with how we've done this year, um, and releasing 1.1. And from my perspective, updating the website, making it much more accessible for people to turn on, you know. Yeah, humble brag. I didn't design it, I just built it. But it's, it's my perspective.

Speaker C: It's amazing.

Speaker A: Very easy. It's a great website. You should definitely check it out. No, it just makes it a lot easier to get your data exports for Focus. And it's really encouraging to see how many people are doing that and how many people are talking about doing that and um, enabling focus and getting their data in that way.

Speaker B: It's really interesting conversations because there are teams that are adopting focus right now and we're learning a lot. They're helping share their implementation stories. There are teams that are getting ready to use Focus and they're giving feedback on what sort of development they still need. And there are folks who are like, well, it's not ready yet. And it's like, yeah, it's version 1.1. Help guide the direction of where this needs to go. And then they're starting to get involved in user groups to give that feedback. We had at, in Barcelona we had a focus lounge lab. That's amazing.

Speaker C: That was so cool.

Speaker B: Every time I peek my head, oh, the breakout room, it was full, it was jamming in there. Lots of post it notes. So, you know, things were happening.

Speaker C: Well, having the sandbox, uh, so people can actually get, you know, fingers on keyboards and use it and see what it really could do. And I think that was a game changer for a lot of people too is let's see what this can really do and how to do it and how would we adopt it. But here's a safe environment to do that in with people that are aware of how to do it. So we had the subject matter experts, we had Sean Alpe, who we, you know, is one of our newer FinOps foundation staff members.

Speaker A: He's an incredibly talented musician as well.

Speaker C: I know, right?

Speaker A: And listen. Yeah, I just listened to his stuff today. It's really, really good.

Speaker C: You know, it's really humbling when you have to work with so many talented people and you're like, I got goats.

Speaker B: We got a master gardener, a professional

Speaker C: cello player, a Broadway actress.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, Broadway actress.

Speaker A: That's true.

Speaker C: We have um, a lot of people that think they're comedians, but they're not.

Speaker B: Other emerging topics that are coming out, we need to get this closer to 15 minutes instead of one hour long. Another topic, Finops Aware Product decisions also referred to as cost aware product decisions, also referred to as shifting left, has emerged this year kind of in response to the historical getting engineers to take action. A, uh, lot of the reason why engineers weren't taking action on recommendations was because it was too damn late. And it's much more effective to get those decisions and information in earlier in the product development life cycle than when things are already in production with customers leveraging the system. I think that is a, uh, reflection of the maturity of the community there, that a large part of the community is able to do that. Now if you are not there yet, definitely check out Chris Boeberly's presentation from FinOps X Europe, shifting from Cloud Cost Police to Cloud Cost Orchestrator. I thought that was probably one of my favorite presentations in my breakout room that helps legacy companies get towards shifting left. Uh, also. AI. It's happening.

Speaker C: What is that? AI.

Speaker B: It's happening. Uh, what I was really pleased about. Someone who I respect very highly, uh, said they listened to our AI episode, which was totally dumb and it was just me trying to learn about AI and I had to ask all the stupid questions before I can get to a smart question. Um, which I'm not sure it's debatable if I ever got to the smart question, but they said it was very helpful in getting their feet planted in learning about AI and I thought they would have already been experts in AI. So very few people are yet. Maybe James Barney, who is our guest, is probably the closest I've talked to on that. So it's out there, it's happening. People are implementing it for their finops processes. People are trying to learn how to perform finops upon it. So that's going to be huge as well.

Speaker C: I think that especially when it comes to the learning and understanding of AI, it's a term that's been around for so long in, in the world that people have. It's like one of those times where you don't maybe want to raise your hand, say I don't totally understand, because I feel like I'm supposed to understand. So by you asking this question so that you might have thought were a little bit basic to get to that more in depth question is probably a lot of people like we need. I know I do. I need to. I feel like I need to get that base level knowledge because there's some preconceived notions of what I've thought AI, uh, has been or evolved to, but that's not necessarily accurate. So definitely a lot of learning's going to be coming In I know we have some outstanding working groups happening right now that we expect some cool output by the beginning of the year. So if you want to get involved, that's a great area to get involved in.

Speaker B: Looking forward, what do finops practitioners need to do in your mind? There's a lot of things happening out there right now.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: What do finops practitioners need to do in 2025?

Speaker A: Keep learning.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: Always be learning.

Speaker C: ABL ABL baby.

Speaker A: ABL baby. Always be learning.

Speaker C: 100% I agree with you, Sam. I feel like because there are no runners, right? We've gone through that. You constantly learning and having to apply what you've learned when it's applicable to your own practice. But also I think what's really important is to make sure that you're getting involved. I think one of the biggest call outs is there's so many people that. And again, I kind of joked about X Europe being humbling because people didn't know who we were as individual people. But that just shows how many people out there in the community that maybe aren't coming in and joining a working group or participating in the community calls that we have. And um, I go back to an old Allison McEntire podcast where she didn't believe she necessarily had what it took to contribute to the professional course. And there's a lot of these people out there that are doing finops. And by the fact that you're doing finops, you have something to contribute to this community. So don't wait till you think you are in that I won finops category because you never will be. But start getting involved. Come to the community calls, be just a listener if you want, but we'd love to hear your voices, get involved this next year and hear what you have to say so we can continue to grow this and grow this community

Speaker B: in practice every time that comes up. Allison McIntyre is still one of the most inspirational people in the community.

Speaker C: I know, right?

Speaker B: It's just like, you know, there's that vulnerability and bravery and courage. Uh, she totally embodies all of it and she kind of says the things you're feeling and thinking inside out loud. So definitely check that out. I actually have some specific advice for practitioners going this new year, because I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little nervous for practitioners going in. I've always up to this point felt pretty confident in that. I know I could predict what's going on, but there are so many things going on right now. This adoption of AI and AI, I wouldn't necessarily say is ready for prime time, but here it is being inserted in primetime. The expansion of scopes expands expectations and also finops Aware product decisions is there's more pressure of helping support people further away from where the centralized FinOps team sits. I have a slight concern that some practitioners may get taken for granted and overwhelmed. So I think what I'm going to encourage for 2025 is stakeholder management and making sure you are establishing good foundations with your stakeholders, your finance partners, your leadership. Whoever is a stakeholder for your team, make sure you are connecting with them and staying in touch and make sure you're aligned with what their needs are. Because there may come a time that you need them to help show what the value is that you're bringing to the team and to help iterate and build upon that value. Uh, so I think that's one of the lessons I'm seeing out there and I'm a little nervous but I think it's going to be, it's going to be okay. We're going to get through it, but we're entering a part. I don't know what it looks like. I look out what Finops teams look like in two years from now and I'm, I really don't know. So I'm really interested in that. So I think it would behoove us all to make sure we are touching it with our stakeholders and keeping aligned there. So with that in mind, Stacy and I talked a little bit about this. My goal for finops pod in 2025 is to help the Finops practitioner. What do they need to do? How can they ABL always be learning? How can they, how can they keep engaged and find allies in the community? And how can they manage the value that they're driving for the business? So my goal for 2025, granted it'll change in February, is to have episodes published that uh, are focused in those areas for you all.

Speaker C: Cool.

Speaker B: Thanks for the endorsement, Stacy.

Speaker C: No, I mean there's nothing I could say that could talk. That was really well thought out and it was. I was very proud of you.

Speaker B: Stupid. Please prove this is not deepfake Stacey saying that.

Speaker C: Hello, I am Stacy Case. This is my deep fake voice.

Speaker A: Oh man, that's really good. It's a really good deep fake of your deep fake voice. Mhm.

Speaker C: Thank you. I've been practicing. Thanks for joining us Sam Vincent. It's a lot more tolerable than uh, we can see what Joe's really like.

Speaker A: I knew it all along, Stacy. Don't worry I've known him a while now. You're fine. Uh, you are. You're fabulous. And I love you both very much.

Speaker C: Aw. I love you too.

Speaker B: Um, Happy holidays and Happy New Year to you two and to all the phenoptonauts out there.

Speaker C: Phenopers Keep on Phenopenied

Speaker D: Hi, this is Stancy the Deepfake Stacey AI voice all of the real and not real people of phenopspad. Hope you have a great holiday season and a happy New Year. Our favorite thing is getting to meet you all in real life. It was a joy to meet you at each of our community events and we hope to see you again in 2020. 2025, whether at the London Member Summit, Finops X in San Diego or at any of the other events we have in the works. We appreciate you for bringing us into your day. Also a BL check out learn.finops.org to check out the latest in Finops training. This wraps up finops spot for 2024. Looking forward to next year and the stories we hear from you all. Until next time, keep on Finops in.