Jennifer Flanagan - President and CEO of Actua

Speaker A: Hey everybody.

Speaker B: Welcome to Fearless Women Podcast. Thanks for joining us as we bring you inspiring true stories from around the world. I'm Janice McDonald, your host and global champion for women. For more great stories, pick up a copy of my beautiful best selling book, Fearless Girls with Dreams, Women with Vision. It's available everywhere.

Speaker A: A big shout out to our listeners from all around the globe, including Canada, of course, usa, uk, Australia, Japan, and so many more countries. Hello and thank you for being part of our fearless community. I love sharing stories of impact from

Speaker B: leaders around the world and love, love,

Speaker A: love having you join us. I'm thinking about you and hope you're doing all right out there. My fearless friends, I'm excited to introduce you to another remarkable person with a fascinating career who is making the world a better place. My next guest is unlocking youth potential in Canada through stem. Jennifer Flanagan is the president, CEO and visionary behind actua, Canada's leading science, tech, engineering and mathematics youth outreach organization that includes a national network of of 43 universities and colleges that engage youth age 6 to 26 in STEM learning experiences. So much to talk about about her work and life and her career and so much more with this visionary and friend. Welcome to the show, Jennifer Flanagan.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. Um, I'm super excited to have the chance to, well, to chat with you anytime, but in this context especially, I'm really happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Oh, so delighted. So, together with a national network of universities and colleges, ACTUA engages youth from all corners of Canada in transformational STEM learning experiences that build critical employability, skills and confidence. Tell us about the journey your big fat vision, you know, to create actua. Take us back.

Speaker C: So, you know, I, I always feel like I disappoint people with the answer to that question because I, I'm not sure that, uh, in fact, I, I, I definitely didn't have the vision, you know, that I think would make a better story when ACTUA first began. But I definitely had the passion and the optimism and, you know, just the belief that things could and should be better. And I think that's what's continued to guide the actual growth trajectory for all of these years. But it started really when I was in an undergraduate student in New Brunswick and was really kind of stumble, had the opportunity to stumble into this amazing summer job that had a group of students. I mean, I was 18 at the time. Like I, you know, we start, we only went to grade 12 in New Brunswick, so we started early and I traveled around the province doing science workshops. At the time, very focused on science with kids and it was like the best summer job ever. I was traveling with my friends, I was visiting parts of the province that I'd never seen. I felt like I was making a difference every day because of the response of the kids. And I just had the best summer. And then at the same time as I was having this, you know, great time, you know, eating lobster on docks and you know, doing all the things that 19 and 18 year olds do in university, I also had this like, undercurrent of holy smokes. I had no idea what a lot of kids are facing. I grew up in a, you know, typical middle class family with professional parents and, you know, with tons of encouragement and lots of privilege and, and I, that summer saw, you know, the, the opposite of that in terms of very rural communities, communities that were struggling with, you know, high, high levels of unemployment. Kids that had not only not met someone who had been a sci, you know, in science or engineering, but had never met even anyone that had gone to university. A lot of kids, uh, that just did not grow up the way that I did. I also visited first nations communities and that was incredibly impactful and eye opening for me because I grew up in a system, in a school system where systemic racism was rampant for first nations kids. Luckily, I grew up in a house where my parents always said, that is not right, like that is wrong, that is not how we, what we think in this house. But it was seeing it firsthand. So those things, those, those things were obviously very formative for me. And you know, I went from there sort of fast forward a couple of years. There was a group of us across the country. This model was, was sort of spreading through student organizations. And um, we all just thought, you know, we need to do something nationally. A lot of kids don't know about science and engineering. And in the back of my mind I was also thinking about, you know, those kids who just didn't have the same level of educational opportunity as I had. So the opportunity came up for me to come into the organization and lead it nationally, like recreate a new model, which is when ACTUA was born. And you know, those same tenants of this, you know, working at the intersection of science and technology and inclusion has remained, you know, the core of this business, even though it's changed dramatically.

Speaker A: Well, and it needs to because the world keeps changing and so you have to, you know, adapt and, and provide that resilience to youth so that they understand, uh, the opportunities that are available. But as you indicated, you Know, it's employability, skills and confidence. And wow, those are incredibly important no matter where you live in the country or in the world. You know, those are two things that are never going to be out of fashion. Employability, skills and confidence.

Speaker C: Especially now, I think, you know, we're in a time that we've, you know, we've never seen certainly, uh, not in our lifetime, around a, uh, major hit to confidence of kids, a hit to their academic achievement. You know, all of this caused by, by the pandemic and couple that with the rise of technology and this relentless social media and you know, all the pressure that, that kids are facing. It. It is a very complex world that kids are growing up in. And so, you know, uh, our work continues to evolve, to meet, meet them where they are. And I believe it's, you know, uh, our work's never before been more important for the skills piece, as you mentioned. Absolutely. You know, skills are changing, our workforce is changing. We need to, you know, make sure kids are staying, keeping up as well. You know, now our focus is on mental health and wellness and I mean those are life skills as well. And there are skills that are critically important, as we both know, to employment is dealing with stress and dealing with, you know, challenges and failures and things like that. So I'm really, really proud of this organization for continuing to meet kids where they are.

Speaker A: So give us a sense of the impact that your organization is having because, you know, I don't want to steal your thunder, but wow, the numbers are staggering when you look at what you've accomplish and continue to accomplish across the country of Canada.

Speaker C: So the numbers are. I agree. I'm also astounded by the numbers and it's because of people like I was when I was an undergraduate student. Our network still employs a thousand undergraduate students. So the organization itself has professionalized, the infrastructure has professionalized. There are hundreds of full time staff, uh, people who are making careers of this, but they still employ undergraduate students to do that delivery. And those undergraduate students every year travel to 600 Canadian communities and they engage close to 400,000 youth. And that is, it's a huge number. It's, you know, you, you add it up over the years, it's millions of kids in this country have um, gone to or you know, know, experienced an actual network member program. And that's important. It's. The big numbers are important. What matters to me and what matters to my team and the people that do this work every day is one kid at a time. And I take a ton of Leadership on this from our indigenous leaders who work at actua. One, one child at a time. Just one, you know, focus on the experience of one child, and that will add up, and it does. I mean, we have an amazing story, both from the quantitative perspective of hundreds and thousands of touch, uh, points, but also, at the end of the day, it's about every individual child and again, just, you know, being where they are and. And figuring out not only what. What they need, but what I love about this market, what keeps me here as a leader, is that we are relentlessly identifying and trying to remove the barriers for them to continue to participate in science and technology. And the barriers are still huge. So we're doing it on both sides.

Speaker A: And is there one story, you know, we're talking about one child at a time? Is there one child story that, um, you might want to highlight for us?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a. That's a tough one because I've just had the opportunity to. To meet and have these moments with. With individual kids so often. And I think often when I get, uh, asked this question, I think back to, like, my first experiences in the North. So when I. When the early days of actua, I was, you know, there were. There was me. There was, uh, you know, eventually a second person. And so I did the delivery, if you can believe it. Like, I. They, you know, I answered the phone one day and someone said, I'm calling. I'm a teacher in Baker Lake. At the time, it wasn't Nunavut, but in Nunavut. And could you come and do workshops? Like, I'm this. I do this off the side of my desk. I've heard that you do these great science things. Anyway, that I went and it was the most incredible experience. You know, this was like early 2000, 2000 maybe. And it was astounding. And meeting those kids, I remember their faces, I don't remember their names, but they were so engaged and interested. And you could just see sort of them at this cross section of the traditional ways of living and traditional, um, knowledge and the guidance that they were receiving from the elders in their community, but also this sort of, you know, and just, uh, you know, expanding and exploring and, you know, how does this all fit together? And we have just been so lucky to be guided by, you know, those. Those communities. And we now deliver, you know, fast forward. We deliver in every community in Nunavut, so 24 communities, multiple times a year. We deliver across the Northwest Territories in Yukon. Um, so that has become a massive program for us. And you know, again, it's, it, it's never about us coming into community and you know, but bringing that knowledge. It's really to facilitate and to coach and to co learn with community. And you know, again, that just remains such an important part. But that was those early days of meeting those kids and being, you know, part of their, part of their lives for a short amount of time was super, I mean, super impactful. And I obviously has had a big impact on actual.

Speaker A: And you've continued to lead this organization for decades now. What are some of the new challenges you face as a leader? You know, you go back to the early days. It's, you know, you, as you said, first it was you, then there were two, and now you have hundreds and, you know, thousands of university students. It's a much more complex organization and the times are different too. So can you give us a sense of maybe some of the new challenges you're facing as a leader?

Speaker C: So I'll say a couple of things about that. One is that I think a lot about the fact that I've been with one organization for the majority of my career because, uh, that's not the norm for people. And it is because I feel like I have led 15 different organizations and the challenges are they keep coming and I, you know, I love building and I love growing and I love innovating. And so that has, you know, been possible because the context that we are operating in changes so, so drastically, dramatically, it, you know, constantly. And so I am, I feel those challenges come on a steady basis right now. There's challenges in both, you know, growing an organization. So we're, we're, we just received a significant investment, $40 million from the federal government over the next five years. It's the single largest investment ever made in a, uh, in a STEM outreach organization. Um, and with, uh, that comes a lot of, you know, we're, we're building. I want to continue to build this organization to do more of the good things we're doing, but I also want to keep the entrepreneurial spirit that we have had from day one. Um, so that is, that is a challenge. And how do we maintain all of the incredible business development that we have done to get us where we are, which is corporate sector partnerships and you know, being really strategic and innovative in the way that we approach raising money for this work, um, and keeping that while we have this incredibly important foundational funding from the government. Um, so there's that challenge from a business running, a business perspective, leadership perspective on the content side of what we do. I am extremely concerned about the state of education, about where kids are, about the challenges that they're facing, about the rise in mental health issues. And we work in a space of technology, Technology and helping kids embrace technology to take, you know, use, um, the opportunities that technology brings. But it also brings massive potential, uh, safety issues and dangers and all of those things. So I, I'm spending a lot of time thinking about how we as an organization address and serve our communities vis a vis those kinds of challenges. So the mental health piece, for example, online safety, you know, what kids have, how they have emerged from the pandemic and in helping, you know, teachers and parents to, to get them back on track. So it's, it's a different, you know, focus than maybe in the past where it was like, okay, how do we, uh, how do we bring digital agriculture into classrooms and how do we, you know, promote mining and how to. Like, that stuff is still there, but there's this, you know, bigger piece around. You know, what I've just, what I've just described that is really, for me, um, engaging and, yeah, keeps me here, keeps me, keeps me up at night, but also keeps me here because I, I, you know, I, I honestly love coming to work every day. It makes me happy to come to work. And that's, you know, I say out to my team all the time. I want, I want people who are excited when they walk into the office. Not every day is as exciting as every other day, but I want people to really feel like they're doing important work and that, you know, they're excited to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah, your passion rings, uh, true. It's just, it can be felt and the work is so incredibly important. Uh, you're also Jennifer, a mother, and so, you know, those tech concerns, uh, they come right into the household too, you know, but you're also leading an organization in a complex world and a very successful organization. So can you talk a little bit about the demands of motherhood and leadership and, you know, how you, how you, um, integrate all of it successfully? Or do you. I don't know.

Speaker C: I was, I could answer it until you said the word successfully. I'm not sure that I. Although it depends how you define success in this, in this sphere. So, yes, I will say that. So I have, I have two girls. My partner also has two children. So we've got four kids in the house. And they're, uh, ranging in age from, you know, nine to almost 16. So there's a big age range. And they are all experiencing this they're all very different kids. They're all experiencing this whole world that I work in in very different ways. And it has. It has hit home in a, you know, this, this piece around social media engagement, you know, and. And what social media is, is doing positively and negatively, especially for girls. And I have three girls in my house. It's been a, for me, a game changer as an. As a practitioner in this field in terms of balancing, you know, it. I just have a very. I have a very busy life and a very busy household. And as I will say this as my oldest daughter is. She's only got two years left in high school, and I am watching some of my girlfriends have kids that go off to university. I am just so much more aware of time and time with them. And, um, that has been such an anchor because I. It just makes decisions a lot easier in terms of how I'm spending my time or how I prioritize. I would never want to say that this is an easy thing to do. It's not easy to run a company. And I say this all the time in my house. Like, if you could come inside. I often think I should just record what happens in my house because people will then, you know, understand that it is so messy. But often I'm like, I. I run a company. How can I not get these kids out the door in the morning? Like, get your shoes on. Like, get your. It's all the same, right? No one can find what they need in the morning. And I hate making lunches. And, you know, I'm constantly running behind all the things, all the. The tough things. But I am, um, also very. Because of the work that I do and because I'm so deeply committed to social justice, I also always have at the back of my mind, like, whoa, this could be a lot harder. Like, I'm still super privileged and so are my kids. And I try to make sure to. To remember that. Um, I also am just so much more annoyed by not even. I mean, I would say, as far, like, angry about the lack of balance in, you know, what women take on in. In traditional heterosexual households, but what women take on, what men take on, um, where the responsibilities are. Who. Who needs to balance and who doesn't need to balance? Like, I am so, um, aware of that as a massive barrier to women in work that. I don't know, I'm not sure even how to articulate it other than to say that it just. It happens like it does for men. You know, they walk out the door and they Come home and, like, things happen, and they fit in some exercise and they, you know, go about their lives. Like, I do the same thing. And I. I think it's. I, uh, want to show my kids that it. It is messy, but it's doable. And I want them to see someone who is, like, passionate at work, who cares a lot about the people I work with, who, you know, cares about doing meaningful things in the world. And that could look very different, um, for different people. But it's also about them seeing, like, me finding joy and things. And I'm all. I'm just. I. I'm just so aware now, like, did I do a good enough job? Did I tell them all the things I wanted to tell them before they went to university? And I think it just creates this really special time where I'm like, I want them to see all these things. I want them to see all the best parts of work. And also, you know, seeing someone who can struggle and get angry and get frustrated, but recover. And so I don't know if that was a. That was a very roundabout answer.

Speaker A: Well, um, I mean, the demands are real.

Speaker C: They are in. In.

Speaker A: In work and home life. And your point around the additional demands that you feel that women experience, you know, that there's. There's a lot. There's a lot going on.

Speaker C: I mean, it's an overused term now around mental load, but it is very, very true. And as, you know, as we're headed back into school year and all that that entails, it's. It's a lot to, um. It's a lot to worry about your kids, and I worry about them. Um, and I'll tell you, it makes me a better leader. And I say this to every employee that I have that is, you know, going off to have her first baby. And we have lots of employees that now we have a lot of, you know, wonderful, um, people starting families. I say it will make you a. It will make you better at your job. It'll make you a better leader. Because now I. I recognize, like it is, it's impossible to. To not acknowledge real life at work. And I say this all the time. Real life happens, and you don't need to hide it at your job. We support you. You know, we know you need flexibility. We also know that you, you know, are passionate and work hard. So it has made me, uh, without a doubt, a much better leader, because I just, you know, the empathy, the understanding, and not to say that you need to have kids to have that. I think it's More maturity and life experience and things like that. I. I just didn't. I was so driven when I was young, and I'm driven now, but I'm driven in a more holistic way, maybe. Yeah, well.

Speaker A: And it puts a spotlight on the fact that those that do have children or. Or, you know, they may have other demands, but sometimes you put in a whole day before you even get to work, you know, and you're wondering why people come and they're, like, frazzled, and it's because, you know, maybe they're caring for elderly parents or, you know, whatever. Everyone's situation is unique, but there's so much happening, and then you got to walk in the door and.

Speaker C: That's. Right. And I think. I think it's. It's. It's just meaning, uh, you know, it's just validating and recognizing that. Right. I mean, you and I had a quick chat before we started recording about, you know, I have a daughter, one of my kids, at a program right now, and she's, uh, you know, unhappy, and she's having a tough day and that, you know, not just a tough day. I don't want to say we all have tough days. It's more than that. But it weighs on your mind. That doesn't. I don't park that for my whole workday and not think of it till I walk out the door. And I just want. I want all of the people at work to know that, you know, I see that. I see that you have those things, whether it's aging parents or children or, you know, pets even, um, that people, you know, care deeply about or other things. So I think it's important to be very real about how this all. How it all happens and that it isn't, you know, it isn't always as clean as maybe people project.

Speaker A: So what else is something you wish you knew earlier?

Speaker C: Goodness. I feel like I have never. I don't know about you, but, like, I just feel like I learn. Like, every day is full of just being, like, astounded by how much I'm learning and how much I, um, am putting, you know, new. New pathways together in my brain around, like, just how things work and. And what motivates people and what, um. And what doesn't and how. How I even learn. Um. So, you know, I. I think so this. A couple years ago, I started coaching my. One of my kids in hockey and all. We're a big hockey family. Three of them play hockey, and I. None of the other. They wanted women coaches and women on the bench. And so few of us had that experience as kids. I grew up in a hockey house, so I had that experience, but I wasn't a hockey player per se, so I was like, I'll do, you know, uh, I'll do it. Like, I, I love interacting with girls anyway, so that has been like a joy for me, coaching hockey and learning about that. But what I realized like a year ago is like, I always wanted to play. And, um, I just had in my brain, kind of shut that off as a possibility and then saw. Saw something that sort of inspired me. And, and I looked into it and there's like, beginner hockey programs. I've always wanted to play, but I was terrified of, like, my skating's not that strong. How would I ever start playing, like in my late 40s. Um, and I did. I finally did. And you know what? It was like, I wish earlier I had pursued a lot more new skills. Like, you know, I, and, and it's not regret. Like, I did it at the right time. I, you know, but I have learned, like, just again, like learning a new skill that's super difficult. That's really challenging, both for myself as an example, but also for my kids to. Because they think it's hilarious. But I can see that they also. I, uh, feel like it's making an impact in terms of saying, like, just go do it. Like, learn the new skill, try the new thing. You know, do something that you didn't expect to do. Uh, I. It's just been eye opening and I think I. They won't admit it, but I feel like they admire it, you know, and, and so we'll see. I hope, I hope later on they say, oh, yeah, that time when my mom, like, always wanted to do something and then she went and did it and kept at it and it was super hard. And uh, but yeah, I love that. Uh, and then honestly, I, I again going back to thinking about, am I doing the right thing? Am I having the most impact? Am I? And I. The answer is just I feel like I am. I feel like I am doing the right thing. And I also feel like I have a lot more work to do and I'm, you know, open to different ways of doing that and, you know, side projects and just things that are of interest to me. Like, I'm really interested right now in how girls participation in sports at a young age develops critical skills that are necessary for things like entrepreneurship and leadership.

Speaker A: And I think there's lots of research on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, there's. There's a Lot. There's a lot of research, but in terms of like a gateway into science and technology leadership, um, there's not as much. So I'm, I'm looking. You know, it's so fun to do that at this point, to really sort of explore things and be able to pursue things that I think are going to change the conversation or change the narratives, because that's really needed in the space of a education. Right. Um, some of the things that we're doing are not working. Some of the ways we're engaging youth are not working. Building skills. Like, it's not, you know, it, it isn't the way that we learned skills or the way that we learned leadership. Um, and so I think all of these things are really important to explore so that we can bring that into the way that we're delivering programs across the country.

Speaker A: Yeah, it has a practical application in the work that you do, but also, you know, just that quest that you have for new knowledge all the time and, and, um, and new skills yourself. Right. Which just rings so true. Then even, you know, through the communities that you work in, when you can actually show, hey, I'm learning new things too, you know, it rings true.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And it's the number one skill. You know, parents ask all the time, like, what. What is the thing that I need to make sure my kids have to be successful in the future in terms of work? And that's a hard question to. To answer, but at the end of the day, if I had to pick one thing other than being kind, I would pick, uh, like really being open to learning new things and learning new ways of doing things and be. And knowing how to actually go about that. Right. So how do I learn something new? How do I learn a new skill? How do I find people who can support me in learning something new? Um, because that will always. That will. No matter what happens in the workforce, that will serve them forever. And it. We know that that's what makes people successful at work. It's what makes successful leaders. Um, so that, yeah, lifelong learning.

Speaker A: I mean, I am, uh, an advocate of that. Absolutely. So you gave us one example of your fearlessness in taking on a, uh, love of sport and figuring out the order to put the pads on and get out on the ice and all of that, which is so fun. But give us another example of a time that you, Jennifer Flanagan, were fearless in your word, like your view. Fearless. Other people may not say, but for you, where you felt fearless.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, you know, I, I think I've had a Safe. A good safety net for my, my whole life in terms of supportive family, supportive friends, you know, privilege, great job and colleagues and all of those things. Safety, Safety in my community, safety in my house. Um, I think one of the biggest changes that I've made in my life that, I mean, I won't. I was terrified, but I did it anyway. So to me that is part of being fearless is like the acknowledgement of like, it is terrifying sometimes to do what you're, you know, is the right thing to do, but you do it. And that was, you know, making a change in my personal life, changing my, the structure of my family, uh, moving away from a marriage that's a big

Speaker A: one, it's a huge one.

Speaker C: And it. In an. In it. It's uh, really tough. And I don't often talk a lot about it. I mean, I do talk about it, I suppose, but I think it's important to, um. Especially for people in my kind of stage of life where you, your kids are not teeny tiny anymore, they're not fully grown yet. Um, you're exploring different things. I never imagined in my entire life ever being someone that would be, you know, not married to the person that I had children with. And, and so that was a, uh, really huge thing. And luckily I have a very great, uh, situation of, you know, super amicable co parent that was feeling the same thing and, you know, it. But, but making that change in life changes everything else. And if anyone, you know, tries to say that those two things are very separate, it's just, you can't, you can't separate. It's your life, who you, who you surround yourself with and who your partner is and what. But they, you know, how you're inspiring them, how they're inspiring or supporting you, that matters so much. And I remember one of my mentors, Dr. Monique Fries, who was the first person to really show me the whole path of gender equity and what, you know, what it meant to be unapologetic. She is the most unapologetic person I've ever known. And she continues to do that. She's a woman. Uh, sorry. She's an engineer, one of the first biomedical engineering graduate from the University of Ottawa. And um, she had a talk once. I was in my early. Like she had employed me. But then I would go watch her speak and she said, the most important decision you will ever make in your life is who you choose or don't choose to, to be with, married or not. And I remember defying at the time and being like, like okay. You know, I'm my own person. I do my thing. You know, I. And it just. It's. She's right. She's totally right. Um, and I see that. And it isn't necessarily to ever lay blame on someone else to say, you know, they'd be critical. It's just who you are and what you need and how you want to live your life. And I think it is really, really hard to make the decision either way of what to do in your personal life when, you know, things aren't ideal. And so I hope. I worry a lot about the decisions that I've made. And I think it's okay to be honest about that, because I think a lot of women and men are just. They struggle with that, and they struggle with the weight of that. I know we made the right decision, and, you know, I hope my kids see that someday. And again, it's made me a more empathetic leader. It's made me, um. It. It's like that. That concept of sort of creative destruction, right, where you just, you know, forest fires, as destructive as they are and as awful as they are, created the fertile ground for new growth and new opportunity. And that is.

Speaker A: Is there a tipping point for you, Jennifer? Was there something where you're like, you know, was there a question or a thought or something that you, you know, because it sounds like you were kind of mulling it over or, you know, or. You said it wasn't necessarily ideal, but, you know, life is ups and downs and, like. So what. What crystallized it for you that led to creative destruction?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think it. It was, um. I mean, it's impossible to say what the. The exact, you know, thing was. I think it's. It's over time, right? You have young children, you are so absorbed and busy, and you just can't even. You don't even have time to think at that. At that time. Especially when you have, uh, a partner who's, you know, themselves running a very successful business that demands a lot of time. I think it's just recognizing, like, that you as a person are an individual outside of your children and, you know, deserve, uh, as does your. Your partner, to be happy and to feel like this is gonna. This is doing what you need it to do. Right? It's giving you what you need in terms of encouragement and support and, you know, being inspiring and, um. And listen, I'm, you know, I'm not for everybody, and I know that.

Speaker A: Supposed to be exactly. Supposed to be.

Speaker C: Exactly. And sometimes it's just it's okay. Like you don't have to make a decision all the time. You know, when you're in your 20s that lasts your whole life. Like I get what the. I get it. I get why that matters. And I wish it was different for me, um, uh, for my kids sake. But I also, uh, love that the option is there to make a change. And I think that's it. Right. If something is really not working, you just, it is so scary. But you should. You know, we do it scared. And I say that to my kids all the time. Like it's the feeling.

Speaker A: Hm.

Speaker C: Scared is okay. It doesn't mean don't do it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Sometimes it does. Like, sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it does. And that's like exactly. Context.

Speaker A: Context matters.

Speaker C: Yes, yes. But then other times, you know, I do hope, I hope they, they look at some of the choices that I've made and they think, they understand that it was, that it was brave. And a few, I've had people say that to me, like, what you did was really brave. Mhm. And I think it is because it is not for the faint of heart.

Speaker A: Oh my goodness.

Speaker C: You know, and, and again, I have such a great supportive. You know, I have a better situation now, um, with my co parent than, than before. And you know, my kids see that, um, have these. Yes. And they now have these other wonderful, supportive adults in their lives who care about them. And so I think it's, it's really important to just give people a different story of what um, post divorce looks like and what it can look like. That it isn't always awful and it can be something really, um, wonderful and, and um, good for, for kids and for work and for all the things. So I, I hope that in sharing, you know, a little bit about what I'm doing, um, a lot of people push back against that and just um, you know, I've had a lot of comments that I, you know, uh, or feedback that I shouldn't, you know, shouldn't. This isn't how it should be. It should be, you know, contentious or it should be negative or I shouldn't have parties and invite, you know, my co parent and his girlfriend and all the people and you know, like it, it's things like that where people just have these stories in their heads about how things should be. And I, I think this is one example of those and really important to challenge, um, to challenge that when the story is in fact different.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: There's a great book, uh, Pamela Jeffers, Feel the Fear and Do It Anyways.

Speaker C: Yes. I love that.

Speaker A: It kind of distills down what you're talking about.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a, that's a great one. Feel the fear and, and, and do it anyways. Or like even. I also love the concept of just like it's the first time. Like I have a. I, the. I think it was Lennon Doyle who, um, coined the term. Or she. I might not have that. Right. But I love the way she looks at the world and she calls it, I won't swear, but um, um, she calls it the first effing time. So. Fft. And I have it like in a big post it note on the fridge and in my office and I talk to the girl and I. We have a swearing household. So I say first thing time. But when I'm like, it's. It's just the first time, right? So if it's the first day of camp, it's the first time you've met this new friend, it's the first time you've tried this new thing. The first time should feel the way it feels right now. It should be scary. It should feel like, oh, you should feel yucky in your tummy. You should. Because it's the first effing time. Um, and so I think about that often. I think about that when I'm feeling that fear. And um. And again, it doesn't mean you should, should not do it because you're not going to feel like that the second time in the third time.

Speaker A: No, because it's more familiar already.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's not easy to go forward in a new way because in a sense you've got a new identity now because it used to be linked to that person. It still is because you're co parenting, but, you know, it's, it's all different. Uh, how does that look, Jennifer? What. How did you kind of move forward in that again?

Speaker C: It's, it's what you, you referenced in terms of, you know, what. What's the next challenge? What's. What's ahead for you? What story do you want to, to build for yourself? It was that I needed to build a new narrative, a new story for myself, a new structure for myself. And you know, that's. That story initially was I, you know, I am married and I have these children and we live in this house and we do this together. I never had a plan B. There was no plan B in my head ever. Ever. I didn't grow up. You know, my parents have been married for, uh, 55 years. Um, I didn't grow up around that. But what I have learned and what I hope people can learn from me and me sharing the story is that you can create a new story that is very positive both for yourself and your kids and I think the world. And again, I've had a lot of pushback on this, that and I haven't always known if I was doing the right thing. But like for example, I have pushed to have a very positive relationship with my co parents, new girlfriend, partner. I have pushed for that and a lot of people told me not to do that. I have pushed to encourage my children to have those relationships and to be supportive of that, to have strong relationships with my former in laws. Like those types of things that I think are so important for my kids to see. And you know, part of it some days I think, oh my God, it's just me overachieving again. Like I need, you know, I need to be the best at divorce that you know, if anyone's ever been like a competition with myself and I do, I acknowledge that that's probably what this is. Um, in large part I want to do it the best that anyone's ever done it. And that doesn't mean every day isn't a challenge. It still is. But at the end of the day I'm guided by something which is like, what is the best thing for my kids and what is the best thing for bringing me peace? And I like, I have gained these wonderful people in my life and other additional children and like my kids have these wonderful adults who like love them and support them. So I just, I just, it's not always possible and I don't want to be, you know, trite by saying, oh, just you know, have a. Be friends with your uh, you know, ex and all the people. And it's not that, but there are ways to do it and you can create a plan B. And as um, Sheryl Sandberg. Yes, says Sheryl Sandberg or Cheryl says, you know, kick the, kick the shit out of plan B. Right. Um, and that has been a big guiding force and I hope is inspiring to other people to know you can create a whole other new story that is amazing for you.

Speaker A: So talk to us about so we know what it's like to take those big steps and do it. What about the first time when you kind of put your hand up and you say yes or you're going to go for it? And some of the lessons learned from those experiences. What when you are pushing yourself kind of out in new territory, which kind of sounds like, uh, a Day in the life of Jennifer Flanagan.

Speaker C: Um, yeah. It's interesting now with kids that are of an age where they can sort of counsel you and you get some of that feedback. So I will openly now, I feel confident enough that they are, they're okay. I will doubt myself in front of them. Like, I will say, uh, like. Or I will express like fear or, um, you know, uncertainty. And I love to hear what they say back. Right. They say back what I hope they say to themselves, which they probably don't. Right. We don't, we don't counsel ourselves often the way that we would counsel a friend or our child. Um, but I love that because it's exactly, you know, what I would, I wish I, I said to myself more consistently, when I do put my hand up to go forward with something, I'm a pretty confident person, like in terms of putting my hand up to do something. I'll put my hand up and then think about it after. Um, so it's a, it's an impulse that has, you know, led to good and challenging times. But I, um, I just, I, uh, love a challenge. I love, especially if it's about like, equity, if it's about making someone, like giving someone an opportunity to be more included or, you know, fighting for something that isn't right. That has always been who, you know, at the core of what I do in my private or my personal and professional life is just what you believe, passionate. Absolutely. So, yeah, putting my hand up, I, I don't know that I, I, you know, I think very few people are willing to put their hand up. Like, I, I'm experiencing that in the, the sport, like in this sporting world, which is new to me, it is entirely driven kids sports, entirely driven by volunteers. It's driven by people who I, uh, I, I cannot, the people that I interact with that give so much of their time not only for their own kids benefit, but for like all of these kids who are having these very formative experiences. And there are some incredible parents doing that and there are a lot of parents and for whatever, like, I don't, it's not a judgment necessarily, but I think people are afraid. Right. I don't know enough. I don't, I wouldn't be good at it. I wouldn't like, know what to do. Um, and so I, it's like a challenge for me to try to get more, especially more women engage, you know, engaged. And I get it. No one ever, they didn't have the same kind of, for the most part, same kind of opportunity in terms of engagement. But I do think more people need to be putting their hands up. I, I hope that they do. It's not, again, not to be critical. I wish they would. I wish they would see that they have. They don't have to have it all to, to put their names forward. And, and honestly, this is, this goes back to the, the, the sort of gender equity or gender issues discussion again around, you know, what women need to. To have, what the research shows that women need to have to put their name forward on something versus what, what it shows for men. And it's vastly different. And I see that in every sphere of my life.

Speaker A: Vastly different. Okay, so what, uh, right now, Jennifer, are you most looking forward to m.

Speaker C: So we have this incredible opportunity, uh, over the next five years with this, you know, giant investment to do some really big things. And I, um, part of that it's going to be delivering a lot of the same, uh, programs, you know, in a bigger way with more kids. But we have this opportunity as well to engage in research, and research is not an area. Research on the development of STEM skills, on, um, diversity in STEM and how we build that at a young age has not been something that has had investment. It's tons of interest in it in Canada, but whereas, like our counterparts in the US have long had significant government investments in researching what is effective to build skills and use and to build STEM skills and to make sure it's done with. With a diverse audience. So we have that now we have the next five years to engage in research that is going to allow us to formally document, you know, what works, what's critical, what the tipping points are, what the, you know, what the levers are with parents, with teachers, with youth with different use, with different communities to make the changes that we need to make, to make sure that we are preparing youth for the future that they're facing, that we're helping their parents recognize their role, that we're supporting teachers in the classrooms to feel more confident in teaching about these subjects. So I am super excited about that because we have the resources to do something that will allow us to then not only improve our own programs to share that across the country, but globally to share it. Our vision is to, you know, is for Canada to be looked to as a leader in STEM engagement and in, um, broadening the diversity of STEM fields and so that global leadership will happen because we're amazing practitioners, but also because we have the research to back it up. So that's my, um, that's the biggest that's the big goal. That's the thing I'm most excited about. Um, and I think it's going to have a very, very significant impact on the field of innovation on a whole. It's taken a long time to get the recognition that engaging youth is a nice to have, it's a must have. In this space of innovation um, and of skills development, you can't start thinking. Yeah. You can't start thinking about it in university. It has to come early, sooner.

Speaker A: Yeah. And if I look to um, myself and my co, co author Claire Beckton and we did three national studies on women entrepreneurs and you know when you, you do the research and you gather the information and you make the recommendations, you can absolutely change the conversation and have real impact because you know, you point to it and that uh, credible information, it's, it's just, it's so powerful. So kudos to you because I love the bold vision of this. It's very exciting and it's going to increase uh, your impact and so kudos to you and your whole team for this uh, next five years of really exciting um, path forward. Final question for you Jennifer. What's your dream for the world?

Speaker C: I think about it from the perspective of kids and youth and I want at the end of the day, uh, really want every single child in this country to have the support systems and the opportunities to you know, bring their potential to the table, to feel safe, um, to be themselves and to you know, develop their talents into you know, what we need in the world. And we need those. You know, I say this to kids all the time. We need your, your exact voice, we need your voice, um, to change the world and all of those voices together make you know, such a big difference. And I think we have a long way to go in this country. Um, I love where I live, I'm such a grateful Canadian. But I've also been to communities where kids are severely, severely lacking in having the safety and the resources to achieve their potential. And so you know I, this is how I'm, I think I can make the greatest impact is at actua doing this work to um, improve opportunities for, for kids. Uh, but that, yeah that's my dream is you know, a world, certainly a country. You know, I think about it in a very like even at the level of teeny tiny, you know, in my kids school, is there anything else we could do to make sure kids have exactly what they need to show up every day and feel okay and safe and well fed and you know, and then that that's how it. That's how it is. It goes back to that indigenous. My indigenous colleagues who say, one kid at a time, right? M. And that's how you change. That's how you change the bigger picture.

Speaker A: You've been listening to the fabulous and fascinating and inspiring Jennifer Flanagan, president, CEO and visionary behind actua. If you want to get involved, if you want to volunteer, you want to give her some money, you want to learn more, give us the website. Jennifer.

Speaker C: It's Actua ca and they can follow me on. On Instagram, for better or for worse. Uh, ACTUA CEO or at Jenny Flanagan. Actually it is, um, so my. My nickname and Flanagan. Enny. Ah, Flynn.

Speaker A: So will you, uh, promise to come back on the show and, uh, keep us posted on your research and the important work you're doing? Okay, you heard it here. You heard it here, folks. So thank you again to the very inspiring Jennifer Flanagan and we look forward to welcoming you on an upcoming show.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening. We want our community to grow. Tell your friends, follow us on Instagram and sign up for our newsletter@ah, fearlesswomenpodcast.com

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Speaker A: Stay fearless.

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