Energy Conservation and Reducing Building Carbon Emissions

Speaker A: Welcome to the Everything Building Envelope podcast. On this show we discuss topics relating to the exterior building envelope, such as waterproofing, glazing, cladding, roofing and more. You can subscribe to this podcast on itunes and Stitcher. For previous episodes, show notes and bonus video content, check out our website, everythingbuilding envelope.com. now here's your host for the Everything Building Envelope podcast.

Speaker B: Welcome everyone to our Everything Building Envelope podcast. I am Dan Johnson, senior consultant for GCI Consultants, and I will be your host today. I am really excited today to have our guest, Todd Frederick, who is the owner and CEO of Freemark Innovations, which is a highly performance curtain roll company located in central Wisconsin that was established in 2016. Prior to that, his company is FM Enterprises, which was established in 1996. Uh, I believe we have an interesting topic today which, which is all about how Freemark's technology helps with energy conservation dollar savings and reduces buildings, uh, overall carbon footprint. So Todd, let's start off by having you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and your area of expertise and then we can jump right into our podcast.

Speaker C: Great. Thank you, Dan. Well, I started in the curtain wall window industry in 1981 and I worked for a, uh, large window curtain wall manufacturer here in Central Wisconsin until 96, at which time I started my first company, FM Enterprises, which primarily we did a lot of storefront doors, custom fabrication, uh, and gradually built into the curtain wall market. And um, that lasted until about 2010, which time I decided I was going to retire for a while. But that didn't last long. And in 2015 I decided it was time for someone to look at curtain wall framing systems primarily to provide a high performance thermal product. Up until that time, um, most people, architects, designers, would refer to the center of glass and really didn't take the account of the framing aspects into place. So like I said, in 2015 I started, um, to look at that. In 2016 I, uh, develop free market innovations. And that's what we do today is we, uh, look at framing. We provide highly thermal products to, um, improve thermal performance of the building envelope and save money for, uh, building owners.

Speaker B: Okay, well that's quite a, quite a history. And I know as we talked a little bit earlier, you and I have worked together, you know, in our former lives also, and I'm glad we're able to talk again. So I know you had talked about this a little bit. Why is it important to have a high performing building envelope?

Speaker C: Well, our research has found that buildings account for approximately 40% of all carbon emissions globally. Which is a huge impact on our climate change. Um, in addition, approximately $20 billion of energy leak out of commercial building windows each year. So both new and old windows, making this an economical issue for building owners. A high performance envelope, which includes windows and curtain wall will, um, not only make a positive impact on our environment, but it will also save money for building owners by reducing energy and maintenance costs, which I feel is a win win for everybody.

Speaker B: Yep, I do agree with you 100%, but kind of the old adage out there, you know, money is everything. Um, so how has the industry responded to so far to high performance products?

Speaker C: Well, you know, there's been, ah, a mixed reaction. As I said, we started in 2016 and the response then, you know, ranged from, uh, well, we are already providing this to we don't need to worry about that yet. And those products are too expensive. And we found that architects, contractors, owners, basically design teams, did not understand the value of high performance and what it meant for the building. Uh, the few that did realize the savings and took advantage of it and uh, are seeing a huge ROI on putting those products in their building. So today we still hear some of the same responses, but not as often. Although nationally thermal codes, um, have not improved to the extent we feel they need to. There are regional areas of the country that have, uh, for instance, Massachusetts, New York City, um, Oregon and Washington have all adopted thermal codes that, you know, for commercial buildings that are more stringent than the ASHRAE recommended codes. Uh, this tells me the industry is starting to move in the right direction. But, you know, it's the old adage, you know, it takes time for things, uh, to shift, but it's slowly going in the right direction.

Speaker B: Okay. You know, I know you alluded to it a little bit just um, now, but traditionally, you know, higher performance products, you know, come at either a slightly higher or a far higher price. Is this true for the fenestration industry also? Or are they virtually the same?

Speaker C: Well, you know, I can't speak for all trades in the, you know, in the industry or in regards to an envelope. But as far as a, uh, commercial window and curve wall, um, industry, yes, traditionally high performance equal higher pricing. However, we've worked extremely hard at driving our cost down. So we're relatively about the same, although slightly more, you know, it's the old adage, if you want to, you know, buy a car, Cadillac's going to cost more than, you know, you know, a Volkswagen, if you will, but, uh, you get what you pay for. But in the case of, you know, High performance products that we provide. We, um, found that although the costs are slightly higher, they're easily offset with the energy savings and the savings in H vac sizing. The challenge we face is getting the building team, you know, the architect, mechanical contractors and general contractors to look at a building holistically to see where savings can be realized that will offset any added cost of the envelope. So if you put in a high performance envelope, you should be able to downsize your H vac. So we have case studies that we have done that with.

Speaker B: Okay. Based on those case studies and uh, your experience in research, what is some of the cost of not having high performance products or fenestration products in the building? Like, for example, will you have to have, um, larger heat pumps, larger, um, air conditioning or lighting and that type of thing?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, uh, you know, when we talk about high, when I talk about high performance, it's going beyond code. Right. You know, so our products perform anywhere from 30 to 60% above traditional products on the market. And so the cost of not putting that in is really. You're not going to realize the savings of the energy cost. You know, we have done case studies where we have reduced energy, um, spends on buildings of up more than 20 to 25,000 per month on large buildings. In addition to that, you know, with high performance that we provide, uh, you can downsize H vac. So even in warm climates, you reduce tonnage for cooling, you know, which typically is a bigger savings than tonnage or, excuse me, savings on heat. So I think, you know, the cost of not having high performance is, you know, in addition to that is you're still going to have the continued carbon emissions and energy leakage, uh, out, you know, downgrade our global climate. And, uh, so I think not having it in there is detrimental to not only our, our environment, but also the building owners and will continue to lose money out the window and even occupant comfort. You know, with high performance. You know, in cold climates, you can move right out to the window. You know, our framing stays at roughly room temperature. So, uh, not like the old days where you could keep your pot cold in the winter and coffee warm in the summer. So those to me are the biggest trade offs by not doing this.

Speaker B: Okay. When you talked about, you know, the aluminum framing being cold and hot, you know, I remember back in my prior life doing the actual thermal testing, and that is definitely the case. I remember some of those horizontal vertical members being very close to below freezing, you know, during the cold temperatures.

Speaker C: Yeah, especially on those cold Days in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So based on the US Codes and regulations, how have they been pushing for high performance products? And if you can kind of elaborate now, who are the main pushers?

Speaker C: Okay, well, as you know, codes are decided on a state by state basis. Right. So we have several authorities in the industry, um, International Energy Conservation Code, iecc, and then of course ashrae, they'll make recommendations on um, you know, different climate zones where your thermal performance should be. But it's up to each individual state to adopt those. And as you know as well as I do, Dan, um, sometimes the states aren't up as up to date as we would like them to be. But as far as uh, adopting codes, I think there are several areas in the country that are going beyond and doing a great job. I think of Massachusetts is one. They just adopted a new stretch code. City of New York has stepped up because of carbon and of course the Northwest has done a great job, um, in Seattle, Portland areas. So I think there's code changes coming in, uh, certain areas and eventually I hope they spread throughout the country. But as far as uh, you know, where we are with codes today, a lot of the states are still back in the, you know, IECC 20M12, 2015 and uh, they just came out with their new 2020 um, one version. So I think we're behind in a lot of areas and I would like to see that move up.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was just on ah, a seminar yesterday that they were talking about the Canadian energy codes, how they're becoming more and more strict and they're almost by 2024, 1-1-2024, that there's a possibility or most products are going to have to be triple glazed in order to meet the energy codes. So based on your designs, with the additional thermal breaks that you have built in, is your design be able to work around the triple glaze or will your design kind of adapt and work with triple A's?

Speaker C: No, that's a, that's a great question. Um, our products, our product line, we have um, what we call our Fort Max thermal barrier. And in uh, for instance Massachusetts right now they just adopted where every curtain wall um, has to meet an assembled U value of 0.25. So we can still reach that with 1 inch insulated glass. And everyone else needs to go to triple. So that's how well our systems perform. You know, we can get into, down um, the road as far as, you know, where our products are today, where we're going. But right now we're able to meet Some pretty stringent, uh, code requirements. Still utilizing one inch insulated glass.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can definitely see that as a benefit, not only with the cost factor of, you know, going to triple blaze, but also just the, just the additional weight factor and labor and everything else that goes along with that additional weight. Um, with the triple, I see that as a huge benefit.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And you know, in today's climate too is embodied carbon. So you've got two lights of glass instead of three, so it reduces carbon of the product as well.

Speaker B: Um, based on your research and pre mark spots, do you feel like the industry is on track to meet the global carbon reduction targets that are out there?

Speaker C: I, in my, this is only my opinion, but I believe, uh, I do not feel the industry's on track to meet the global carbon reductions that it wants to. As it relates to the facade. I know they're doing a great job with other things like you know, the heating system, solar and you know, those types of things, renewable energy, heat pumps. But uh, when it comes to the facade, no, I don't believe they're on track because the codes just aren't moving fast enough or being um, aggressive enough for that to make an impact. For instance, you know, in Wisconsin, the code requires an assembled U factor for fixed penetration of 0.36. This hasn't changed for several years and it's not expected to change for at least another year or two. But this U factor is equivalent to an insulated value of an R, uh, 2. 7. Well, that's not very good. And by decreasing the U factor to 0.32, which is where they're really trying to push it to, that's only an R factor of an R3.1. And I call these minor improvements. And to make any significant change, a more impactful increase needs to happen in the code. You know, we really need to start providing windows and curtain wall products with U factors of 0.15 and lower, uh, in order to make an impact in carbon reductions.

Speaker B: If you get down to 0.15, can standard glass or does it have to be vig?

Speaker C: Um, I can get there with standard glass. In fact, we just certified, um, I was going to go down to that, but we just certified one of our products that has a U factor of 0.138 and it's, it's done within triple glass. Okay, so we can get down there. That's where we are today.

Speaker B: Okay, so based on your previous comments, up. So it's basically the code officials or the codifier, so to, so to speak, are the ones that kind of pull, push industry and then industry needs to perform to the codes. So a majority of the manufacturers are just kind of waiting for, you know, doing, going status quo and waiting for the code to push them to the next level.

Speaker C: Right. That's how I feel. I think it's like a three legged first we have, we need to uh, you know, really make an impact on the codes. And I know the authorities out there, ashrae, um, iecc, they're, they make recommendations, um, and then they get pushed back from, from the industry because they feel it's too expensive or it takes, you know, some companies just can't get to those points. But then we also need the states to adopt codes that'll push the industry in those directions. So I think it's a, it's a three legged stool and um, I think we all need to do better.

Speaker B: Okay, yeah. I know that you've kind of talked about this a little bit, but what do you feel is the biggest barrier when proposing high performance products to customers?

Speaker C: Okay, I run into two of them really. Um, the first one has always been a challenge to overcome is that getting the architects and designers to understand how the framing affects the overall performance. You know, for a long time the industry viewed the center of glass as the wall performance and didn't uh, take into account really how the frame affected the glass performance. They also didn't really look at, you know, the performance of the edge of glass, as we all know, is much worse than the center glass. Although the industry is starting to understand this issue, you know, manufacturers in the industry, the framing manufacturers, are struggling to provide products that can actually reduce this effect and thus create confusion for spec writers and designers. So you know what I mean by that is there's, there seems to be some confusion in the market right now is how do we specify a product with glass in order to meet these lower code requirements. So there's some education that has to be done. And then second biggest barrier we run into, you know, is the cost. Even though we have reduced our cost, they're still approximately about 5% more than a traditional code compliant product. But however, the savings they can realize in energy and the upfront H VAC reductions, you know, will more than offset the small increase. The challenge is getting everyone to realize that and look at a project holistically.

Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And especially with the additional benefits, you know, in order to reduce, you know, the H Vac and that type of thing, you know, you can put less glazing in it in the building. But in the long run that actually reduces user comfort and you know, with the uh, daylighting, you know, so it's a big trade off there, you know. You know you want as much light as possible, but you want that to be, be high performing daylight.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Yep. We don't want to reduce the glass in a building if we, you know, we want to, we want to help architects put more in a building and be efficient.

Speaker B: Yeah, based on my experience, I agree with that. You know, it just has more helpful benefits, you know, for the people in the building also. So what's the next big step for Freemark in terms of high performing products?

Speaker C: Okay, well as I said before, you know, we've already improved our product performance level down to a U factor of 0.138, you know, which is in just like an R7.2. Um, that's available today. Um, we're just finishing R and D on our next release that will uh, provide an assembled curtain wall, both unitize and stick that will provide a U factor of 0.098 assembled. And this is an R10 assembly and I believe it's the first to be available in the market. And we made that our goal 10 years ago and we're going to complete it in less than 8. That particular product will involve uh, vig. I um, think that's the next step in uh, glass performance and we're pretty excited about being able to work with. I believe they will be the first domestic manufacturer of vig and it'll be market ready the first quarter of next year.

Speaker B: Okay. And for those, my apologies for our listeners. I know I said it and Aminata said it too, but vig is um, on vacuum insulated glass. Know it's the next technology. It's been out there for a while, um, but mostly, mostly in Europe and Asia. Uh, but it's the next technology in glass that will enable um, higher performing thermal products here. Thermal and acoustic products here in the states.

Speaker C: Yep, you're absolutely right. I think that's going to be the next step and it's going to be um, I believe it'll become very economical to um, use as well. Um, and the reason I like vig is either we can make it a hybrid, you glaze it into a 1 inch unit and we get better performance yet, or you can use the vig itself. Uh, my only concern is um, in the testing that we've done is that the glass edge is very, has a very poor conductance if you will. So um, that's one thing that we're working on here, uh, but it's great. I think it's a great opportunity for the market. And uh, like I said, first quarter of next year we're going to be available with it. So we're excited about it.

Speaker B: All right, Todd, we're coming to the end of our podcast here. Is there anything else that you would like to let us know that we haven't touched on, um, in the fenestration industry? Just kind of, um, words of wisdom, insight or anything like that that you would have for us?

Speaker C: Well, as you know, Dan, we could talk all day, but, um. But one of the things I would really like your listeners to understand and realize is that the framing in the commercial market plays a huge impact on the assembled value or assembled performance of any current wall or window. And I stress to please take that into account when you're looking at a design. You know, we, we've been working on this now since 2016, so we have a tremendous amount of experience, um, in the thermal performance walls. And uh, we look at everything from, you know, the U values or R values if you will, to the condensation. You know, we do dew point analysis. Um, and just recently we start, really started looking into the performance of the spandrel areas. So that's the next area of, um, concern, I guess you could call it. But that's where the market is moving now, is really looking at that performance.

Speaker B: Yep, I agree that the spandle areas is keeping the condensation out and that's a whole, whole other whole nother animal there.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is. Uh, it's all new software and so it's going to be a long game to get to there, but something that needs to be done.

Speaker B: Well, Todd, um, I want to thank you for our conversation. If any listeners want to reach out to you or your team, what's your website address and the best way for them to contact you?

Speaker C: All right, well, Our website is www.freemark f r e M M A R Q Innovations. And the best way to reach out and get in touch with me would be, um, probably, uh, email, which is, uh, Todd to D D period Frederick F R E D E R I c k@freemark.com and our office number is 715-842-6842.

Speaker B: All right, thank you Todd. Um, and listeners, we also invite you to take a further look at our very own GCI consultant services on our website at, uh, www.gciconsultants.com. or you can also reach GCI at 877-740-9999 to discuss any of your Building Envelope needs. Thank you again, Todd for our conversation, and I look forward to talking with you and our listeners the next time on our Everything Building Envelope podcast. Thanks.

Speaker C: Thank you Dan.

Speaker A: Thanks for joining us today. Please subscribe to this podcast on itunes or Stitcher for For more information on the Everything Building Envelope, previous episodes, show notes, bonus video content, and, uh, much more, check out our website, everythingbuilding envelope.com.