WHY THIS LEADER SEES THE CRO ROLE VERY DIFFERENT AND HOW IT WORKS

Speaker A: Hey everybody, welcome to the show. We got a great interview for you today. Uh, before we dive in, make sure you check out the website over@b2b revenue.com and if you happen to see some of my content fly by on LinkedIn, please give it a like comment and share. I'll sum up, uh, the interview at the end.

Speaker B: And here we go. Hey Sal, thanks for joining us today as well. Getting started. Give us a little background on yourself.

Speaker C: Sure, Brian, I'm happy to. So, um, uh, my background is actually backwards. I started, um, as an entrepreneur, spent about 15 or so years of my career, uh, building startups, uh, having exited two and then somehow I fell backwards. I ended up in Fortune 500. Um, don't know how that happened. Odd, um, story, but I did, um, and uh, had a lot of fun, uh, there. And most recently I've come back to my roots, uh, working with a close friend of mine, uh, back in a, in a smaller company right now.

Speaker B: And which do you prefer?

Speaker C: You know, the jury's out on that, Brian. I'm trying, I'm trying to figure that out right now. Um, I'm not sure. Uh, there's a lot of activity in the marketplace right now and I'm watching a lot of friends, you know, move around and bounce around. But right now, you know, we're having a lot of fun, um, over at my Matrix, the business is going gangbusters and love, uh, the people I'm working with. So right now, uh, really kind of digging what we're doing.

Speaker B: Cool. And what do you like about sales leadership?

Speaker C: Um, you know, sales leadership is something I fell into. I mean, I never sat back in college and said, hey, I'm going to go into sales or marketing or anything like that.

Speaker B: Nobody seems to, you know, I don't

Speaker C: think any of us really, really have. Um, and uh, I'd started my own company when I was 16 and kind of rolled into that. I got down to the University of Miami, ended up starting more companies, so kind of fell into it. I don't know that it's really just sales leadership. I think for me it's leadership overall. It's being able to come in, take the risks, um, try to move things forward, um, build loyalty, um, drive, passion and compassion. Um, have a lot of fun with it. And when you talk about that, it comes down to sales. But really, I guess more pointed answer, um, to your question is I'm a storyteller. I like to tell stories. Um, um, I could be front and center, like to be on stage and all of that. And um, if you're a good storyteller, by definition you're a good salesperson. And if you're a good salesperson, um, you got about a 50, 50 shot at maybe, um, leading some folks. Um, I think it's kind of part and parcel with the role as a good salesperson. By definition, I think there's some leadership there. So, um, what do I like about it? Uh, it's in my genes. It's, it's just sort of, it's how I'm wired. Was it the way you were raised?

Speaker B: Was it a family thing? Was your dad that way or.

Speaker D: Actually no.

Speaker C: Um, I come from a very blue

Speaker D: collar family, um, tough, um, environment, uh,

Speaker C: grew up in New York. Um, and uh, I stepped in and took a leadership role in the family.

Speaker D: I'm the oldest of four. At a very early age, um, had no choice due to circumstances. So I guess I sort of fell into what you call a, uh, quasi leadership position and I just sort of flowed into it. But no, there was no family background here. I did come across a couple of folks early in my career, um, and even in high school that I would have to say had a big influence in driving me towards a leadership role or helping me bring out some of the, um, I'd like to think some of the natural qualities that a lot of us have, uh, have to lead. But mostly I'd say I'm a risk taker, storyteller and a risk taker. And I think that just was bred into me and I kind of fell in that direction.

Speaker B: And what is it about the risk? Is it the excitement kind of all encompassing, kind of absorbs all your attention?

Speaker D: Um, well, I'm not someone, I mean, I don't like to skydive or rock climb or anything like that. So I'm not at that level of risk. But, um, I guess I always took the position that coming from the background I did and the struggles and having to, you know, I mean, we didn't have the benef a lot of folks had growing up. Um, I saw risk as the one way to really get ahead, to jump ahead. You know, I didn't have the financial backing, um, had the education, was fortunate there, but didn't grow up with, you know, a set of parents that sort of taught me this and taught me that. I mean, great mom.

Speaker C: Mom was amazing, um, and still is.

Speaker D: But, um, the risk, I guess, was my quickest way to jump from point A to point Q.

Speaker C: And that's what I did.

Speaker D: And candidly, again, I enjoy it. Um, I like risk reward.

Speaker C: Um, I like hitting a home run. Um, I play hardball even today.

Speaker D: Um, and I'm not a singles hitter.

Speaker C: You know, I don't hit a lot

Speaker D: of home runs, but I'm always looking for extra bases and I like to hit the ball hard. So I think. I think that's where the whole risk reward thing comes in. I'm not. I'm not, you know, I don't hit for average.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Um, and what do you think makes a great leader?

Speaker C: Well, that's the. That's the question, right? We can go online and find a million different positions on that one. Um, I think there's a difference between a leader and a manager. Um, I think a leader can be a manager, but I'm not sure a manager can be a leader. Um, I think really what it comes down to is possessing the courage of your own convictions.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: Um, being able to listen to the smart people you're surrounded by, um, and taking everything to an account, but then at the end of the day, making the hard decisions, knowing where to take some risk and bearing the blunt and accountability what you do. Um, but to me, most importantly, it's really developing a culture. A leader develops a culture, and you don't develop it in a vacuum. You certainly don't develop it alone. Some will tell you you do. I don't believe that. Uh, it's a tribal thing. You work with the people around you and you develop a culture and you develop a loyalty. Um, and from that standpoint, I think it helps fuel leadership. And if you're any good as a leader, um, what you're doing is you're breeding more leaders underneath you. Um, and I'm pleased to say that throughout my career, a large number of the people, um, I've worked with, uh, many of whom reported to me have gone on to, uh, have great success in leadership roles. So I think that's also the sign of a leader is being able to coach and mentor, et cetera, et cetera, but knowing how to get people to be willing to understand, to take a little bit of risk here and there, but at the end of the day, taking the. If it comes down.

Speaker B: And you brought up one of my favorite points about the difference between leadership and management. And I think today there's a whole lot of management going on and not enough leadership.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think that was, um, amplified by everything we've gone through over the last 18 months. I think we saw, um, I think we were given an opportunity to really step through the looking glass and really take a hard look at people, how people were being managed, how managers were being managed, how leadership, uh, was taking place. We really did go under a microscope during this whole pandemic. Uh, it wasn't as easy, um, to keep things on the surface or to hide things or a lot of folks who, uh, sorry to say, but a lot of folks hide in roles in corporations and they, they keep their head down low. I think this pandemic took a lot of that coverage away. Um, and to me, more things have become transparent. I don't think productivity has increased in the way we've had to work, frankly. I believe it's decreased from my perspective. Um, but I do think it's given us a very keen insight into how we structure organizations, how we manage teams, how we lead teams. Um, a lot of transparency has come to the surface, Brian.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Any examples there?

Speaker C: Well, I gotta, I gotta be careful here. I think the most glaring example, and we all know this, I'm not telling tales out of school here, has been the way, um, finance, the finance, financial, uh, teams and the financial divisions within organizations really look at how organizations are run and how sales and marketing and customer success take place. I think they've always had a, um, they've had a skewed perspective. You know, finance, Finance has a. Give me an example. Finance has a very simple way of doing things. And I've seen this in Fortune 500. I won't mention companies by name, but you cut headcount, you cut expenses, everything keeps running cool. You cut a little bit more, keeps running cool. And you keep doing this right, you whittle away at the poodle piece by piece. You know, you trim the poodle's hair and see how. Until eventually you make some cuts in the train derails. And then finance goes, okay, that's it, you know, no more, right? And during this pandemic, what's happened is finance, um, has come back and said, this is great. Look at all the money we're saving and the business is still running and things and our numbers are still good, etc.

Speaker D: Etc.

Speaker C: Um, and that's BS, right? That's BS. That's not how it works. Um, finance is not the tail that wags the dog, right? Nothing happens in any company until someone sells something. I don't care if you're a surgeon, I don't care if you're outselling software or building cabinets. Until someone sells something, nothing happens. And I think what we've seen here is, we've seen finance come to the forefront. And you're really getting a look at what they're doing. You're saying, geez, these guys and gals are not necessary for the most part. There's exceptions to every rule. But they're not really understanding what we do and how to fuel us. In their mind, keep everybody working from home.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: In their mind. Nobody needs to travel to trade shows. Hell, we don't even have to run trade shows anymore. All of these. And none of this is true. It's categorically false. Now, will there be some shift? Yes. But is it to the extent that the finance teams are saying it? Absolutely not. So that would be the one example I would give you of what's come to the surface. And by the way, we're going to need to deal with this because it ain't over yet.

Speaker B: Well, that's it. Because when you're. That's kind of what I call bunker thinking. When you just think that everything's going to happen automatically and you don't understand the cause and the.

Speaker C: I may use that one.

Speaker D: I may use that.

Speaker C: It's all yours. That's a good one.

Speaker D: I like that.

Speaker B: Well, because they assume that it's a machine instead of people. Yeah. It's very different point. Right. And it takes a while for the machine to slow down once you. You take the oil out of.

Speaker C: Takes a while for the engine to seize.

Speaker B: Yeah. It still goes another mile or so.

Speaker C: It's like one flat tires. Right. I know I can get about 50 miles out, so I can't drive on them for the week.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that's the difference between leadership and management. It's like you take a myopic view instead of a holistic view.

Speaker D: Fair point.

Speaker B: Fair point. And have you found any particular group you like leading more? It seems like sales has been a consistent pattern.

Speaker C: Well, sales has been a consistent pattern over the last 15 years or so. But really going to my background running small companies as a CEO, um, I really enjoy touching just about every aspect of a business. I enjoy the heck out of it. I don't mind jumping from finance meeting to marketing meeting to sales meeting to dev meeting to ops. And not to go off topic here, but I've done a fair amount of public speaking. And one of the things I've talked about is the role of the CRO. And I think this is an interesting, um, this might be interesting to your viewers and listeners. Um, so in the old days, say, going back 10, 12 years, CRO was a title you gave to a senior salesperson where you had no place else to go, evp, sales, global, whatever it was, Managing Director. And we started giving out the CRO title. It was like great. Gave he or she a title. We're good. That's changed. That's not the case anymore. The Chief Revenue Officer is a very well defined, um, much accepted critical role in organizations because we've started to make it that way. We've opened our eyes. But here's the thing. I got asked a question after doing um, an address I did up in Toronto to about 300 um, ah, c level executives in the manufacturing industry, Maytag, a bunch of others. And the question was, what's the difference between a CRO and anyone else in the C suite, particularly CEO? And the answer I gave was that the CEO is the visionary. He or she is there. They set the vision, they're out there, they're front and center.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: The CRO has a slightly different role. The CRO has to understand every discipline in the company. Like I just said, marketing, development, operations, support, sales. He or she has got to be able to go into any meeting in any discipline and be able to hold his or her own and not get BS and not get railroaded and not let one slip by into the net. Right. That's the job of a Chief Revenue Officer. So therefore you could, and again present company excluded. But you can make an argument that says the CRO is probably the most well rounded, versatile person in the C suite. I firmly believe that. Not because it's a title I've held, but because I've watched this and studied this in the industry. So I think when it comes to leadership, to your earlier question, the CRO is a very interesting role to study. And if you look at some of the more successful CROs and names are not popping into my head now, but I had six or seven of them in my presentation. If you look at them, they're exactly that. They're not CEOs. Maybe they were at some point. They're not CFOs, they're certainly not COOs, although we're starting to see the lines blur between the two right now. Um, the CRO really has to get it. They've got to get it all, Brian. They've got to be able to walk into any room and have the conversation. That's my position.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. Because certainly today they're dependent on people who make the product, people who market the product and uh, the operational elements of the company to understand what will work and what won't work.

Speaker D: True. That's True.

Speaker B: I think your point about them not being snowed, I mean, think about it, right?

Speaker C: If you think about the role of a CRO, if he or she gets, as you say, snowed in any one area, ability to drive revenue, to achieve targets, to really lead, literally can get crippled. They can have the legs cut out from underneath them like that, particularly on the dev side. And this happened to me. I was at a business where the dev team went off, much to my chagrin, and built something that was not consistent with what we in sales were expecting. This happened because I had a partner in the business running that side of the business. Shame on me, right? I let it go too far. And by the time they came back with what was close to, um, a finished product, it didn't even resemble, you know, we were going to have a cat and they built a dog. And, um, that's really when it struck home for me. I said, geez, I got to figure out how to go sell this. This is not what I'm geared up for. This is not what marketing is set up for. This is not even in our gene pool from the sales team. What do we do? So you pivot and you recover, and there's no sense crying over. Once you get all of that in place and you got the business hopefully running smoothly, then you go back and you have the discussion with your counterpart. Which I did.

Speaker B: Yeah. And how did you become good at that? Because that is the hard part. Because everyone's got their own metrics, bonus system, personal wins. Like, in that case, that was what they wanted to build, not what the market wanted.

Speaker C: Well, if you're asking. So your question is, how did I deal with that?

Speaker B: How do you get their buy in? Because.

Speaker C: Oh, oh, oh. Well, I mean, not to sound. Not to sound, you know, redundant, which you hear from everybody else. And I don't like the word collaboration. I think collaboration has gotten to the point where it's now become a bad thing, which we can talk about if you like, but, um, you get it through very open dialogue, accountability, um, and no fear of having a confrontational conversation. You know, we've gotten to the point where everything is so politically correct. And I'm not talking about, you know, some of the DEI topics, but, um, everything has gotten so politically correct that somewhere along the way, people have gotten it in their head the confrontation is a bad thing. I'm not saying you get in a room and you slug it out, but, uh, confrontation's okay. Typically, if folks come up with the right intention and they're interested in A common outcome and a common good. Confrontation is fine. We call it debate.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Sometimes it escalates a little bit beyond that, but that's okay. And I think the way you do it is quite literally by maintaining open communication lines and not being afraid to walk in and say, brian, listen, dude, this is not where we were.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: This is not gonna work. And some people don't wanna do that either. They're afraid to have the conversation. Cause they think again, they're gonna get snowed. It's like, oh, geez, he's gonna talk his way around me. Or they just don't want the confrontation. To which I, you know, again, I call bs. Look, uh, you've gotta be able to go in and have those conversations. Now, unless you live in a benevolent dictatorship and your CEO that can come in and say, heard it, listen good. No.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: And you can do that. I mean, I did it in smaller companies on occasion. I didn't do it with a smile on my face. I didn't like it. But occasionally I did.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Because the buck stopped with me, as Truman said. But, um, I do think it can be healthy. Human beings, um, by our nature, we can be confrontational. There's a reason we're wired that way. It's not so we can run out and hit each other over the head with clubs. There's a reason for it. It's how things progress at times.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: It's healthy conversation. So to answer your question, you know, you got to be willing to go in and have the conversations. You can't hide from them, you can't skirt those things.

Speaker B: And how do you keep such a broad bandwidth? Because understanding the product and not getting snowed, understanding marketing and not getting snowed, and dealing with finance and having them understand what you're really trying to achieve.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: I would say there's two things. One, um, you have to love it. You have to be passionate about the job and the roles that it comes with. And two, more importantly, um, you got to have a good team. You have to surround yourself with people who are trustworthy, high integrity, who typically move at whatever your rate and pace is. If you're more analytical, um, and you tend to take your time. As you know, I worked at Lenovo. So Lenovo is a company where there's a great deal of thought that goes into long term planning culturally, um, or, you know, I've worked at other companies. Whereas like CA was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, fast happen now and you've got to have good people around you. I was I was really fortunate in that the last couple of teams, you know, I've been lucky enough to build, have inherited some and I've built some of it have been outstanding. Um, they really have. And I didn't have to necessarily go quite as deep as maybe some folks needed to in marketing. Why? Because I had a brilliant CMO and, you know, she crushed it. We had a friendship, we had a relationship, we were colleagues, we were intellectually connected. So the team you build will really feed you with enough where you're typically not going to get bamboozled. And also surrounding yourself with honest people is important. I know we take that, uh, for granted, right? We think in our industry, everyone's honest. Well, guess what? They're not. People have their own agendas and it's not always the best interest of the company or following whatever the leadership objectives are. So be honest with yourself. Ask yourself, are you working with a team or a group of people? And you don't have to go tell anyone what you determine, but are they honest? Are, uh, they of high integrity? You read these, um, job definitions that we've been writing for 30 years and they all have that, you know, self, starter driven, passionate, you know, honest integrity. Come on, it's boilerplate. How many of us do an interview and really dig into those questions? We're afraid to. We're afraid we're going to cross an HR line or we're going to do something like that. I disagree. I think there's ways to ask those questions that are in no way politically incorrect. And I think the person on the other end will appreciate the fact that you're bringing them up. And I've done, I've done some of that in executive interviews I've done to bring people on board.

Speaker B: And how did you adjust going from entrepreneurial to. You went to some pretty big companies?

Speaker C: Um, that was just, that was like jumping into, jumping into the, you know, the North Sea, you know, naked. It was like, it was just, it was boom. I got thrown right in and I never expected it. Um, the adjustment is difficult. I'm, um, not going to tell you anything else. It was very difficult to go from under 200 people at my last company to IBM at the time with 500,000 employees or something. At the time, um, the adjustment was made easier by the people who supported me and brought me over to the business.

Speaker B: Ah, was that through an acquisition or was that.

Speaker C: No, no. I was actually brought into IBM as a professional hire to, uh, come and do some pretty significant work around channel transformation globally. And I was brought in by some very senior, um, executives who, uh, believed in me and felt I was the right person to do the job. And they gave me significant support. That helped a great deal. But candidly, you know, did I have issues, um, throughout the entire six years I was there? I did, um, I learned that I learned certain behaviors and I had to throw away certain muscle memory in terms of how I participated in meetings and what I said and how I said it. Um, yes, you know, it's like sort of meeting your in laws for the first time, you know, which, which was how it was for six years. Um, and it got a bit easier. Um, uh, particularly at Lenovo, um, I was running an incubator or, you know, co. Running an incubator and driving the business. And um, that was a bit easier because Lenovo sort of left us to our own device to get our job done. But it's hard, Brian, I gotta tell you, particularly for someone of my nature, um, I break a lot of glass,

Speaker B: right, and it takes a lot longer than you anticipate. Uh, you gotta, you know, figure out the matrix and you know, there's a lot of phoniness going on.

Speaker D: Right? Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, calling the spade a spade, you know, it's. So I live in Raleigh, North Carolina. Right. From New York City, 30 years in Miami and then Raleigh. So they call us halfbacks because we went to Miami, came halfway back.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Um, and in the south, um, as you may or may not know, in the south, people have a reputation for not necessarily saying what they mean in front of you. You know, they're all very, you know, very kind and they chatter and they talk, but then once you're not around, it's a whole different thing. And we've seen this, we've heard people talk about it, we've seen it in movies, and take my word for it, it's true.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Um, and I think the same, unfortunately, um, is true in large corporations. And that's why I think this whole pandemic has opened up some transparency. It's been harder to do that. Um, you know, people are being, I really think people are being held accountable more so now than they were. And these Zoom meetings or, you know, WebEx or GoToMeeting, whatever you use, we're face to face, I mean, different than sitting in a meeting room or being on the phone. I mean we are, you know, if we were sitting this close in the

Speaker B: meeting room, you would move to another chair.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: But we're really on top of each other. So I, ah, think I Think you do.

Speaker D: What's that book?

Speaker C: Swim with the sharks without being eaten alive. Um, McKay.

Speaker B: Harvey Harvey McKay. Yeah.

Speaker C: Great book. Great book. And it'd be interesting if he came out and wrote another edition of that based on current times. I'd be really curious to see what. What he would say.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, it's filtering and trying to understand reality versus perception, or

Speaker D: accepting reality versus perception.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker D: I mean, I tend not to be as much a realist. Um, I'm a dreamer. I'm a risk taker. It's my nature. So to me, everything's always based on perception. I'm also a marketing guy, so it's based on perception. And I get criticized, um, by my partner all the time that, uh, the

Speaker C: world is black and white and by

Speaker D: a number of friends who say the world is black and white. And there's probably a great deal of

Speaker C: truth to that, but I live in

Speaker D: the gray, and most of the people

Speaker C: I know live in the gray, and I'm much more comfortable in the gray than I am in the black and white, so.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, it gives you a little bit more flexibility to not be upset. Black and white. You're either happy or you're unhappy.

Speaker C: Yeah, from a. Yeah. And from a spiritual standpoint, that's true as well, right? I mean, from a life standpoint, um, yeah, it does make things. It can make things difficult. You're right.

Speaker D: Cool.

Speaker B: Hey, Sal, really appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Speaker C: Um, pretty easy. Um, you'll find me at MyMatrix, and its first initial last name S. Patilano. Um, and I'm sure the spelling will be available when you publish this. S. Patilanoindmatrix.net and, uh, be happy to communicate with anyone. I love these things. And it's always very flattering, Ryan, to, um, you know, to receive an invitation like this from one's peers. So I say thank you very much, very much.

Speaker A: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that interview. Hey, I want to make sure you're checking out b2b revenue.com. that is where you can get a free copy of an ebook that I did. It's a real ebook. It's not, um, a, uh, fluff book. It shows and talks about how companies make buying decisions and how you can influence that from both a marketing and a sales standpoint. How to find all the people that are in the decision path and what they need to see, know, and touch and feel before they make a product selection. If your team needs some coaching, some help, some training, some systems, some processes that do work today because we know what doesn't work or you know what doesn't work. I'll show you what does work and how to connect and get into pretty much any account. Uh, it includes steel coaching and content community. And I can customize it for your particular company. Just go to b2b revenue.com, look under training, schedule a call with me, we can talk it over or just sign up. Uh, you can pay per month or all at once, whichever makes most sense for your budget. Also, I put out videos pretty much daily on, uh, LinkedIn and on YouTube. On LinkedIn it's Brian G. Burns, and on YouTube it's Brian Burns Sales. Just search for that if you like to consume some video content. And if you see me on LinkedIn, please put a comment and a share and a like on some of the videos. I really appreciate it. I've got a company page for each podcast. Uh, this one, the B2B Revenue Leadership Podcast, where I put both content and humor, uh, videos out daily and tell a friend about the podcast. Really appreciate you listening. Check out the show notes for all the partners and the connections you can make there, uh, the coupon codes for the products to evaluate them, see if they're the right match for you and we'll see you next time.