UK data centres in practice: permitting, delivery and decarbonisation with Amberside Advisors

Speaker A: Foreign

Speaker B: welcome back to another episode of Energy Transition Today. I'm Maya and uh, we're here with a special guest, Lorcan McCalloden from Amberside, uh, Advisors. So Lorcan, you've recently joined Amberside, uh, Advisors.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. So, um, I joined Amberside at the start of the year, um, so proud of that. I had uh, 13 years of experience in the decentralized energy sector. 10 of those were at Engie, so they were the largest developer and operator of decentralized energy networks in the uk. So in my last role as development director, um, I was responsible for the growth and the expansion of some of our flagship cityscale district energy networks. So I work with a range of different technologies from chp, biomass energy from waste, ah, heat pumps, deep geothermal, and then after 10 years I joined a company called One Energy. So they were an independent developer and operator of low carbon heat networks in the uk. So I worked there for three years as the project director for the Milton Keynes Energy Network, um, as part of the energy strategy there. Um, central to what we did was to prioritize waste heat that was sourced locally. So I was able to identify uh, an energy center location close to an existing data center which was operational. And then I went on to negotiate um, terms so that we could secure a future waste heat supply, uh, from that data center. And that's really what got me interested in data centers and where I started to see the synergies uh, between them and heat networks.

Speaker B: So the decentralized energy, that's the crutch here, isn't it? Because the main problem with data centers appear to be the grid connection. The grid in most parts of the world is not ready to upload the kind of energy we need or download it. So for data centers the drawdown is a big issue. And uh, we have people coming up with solutions to circumvent the issue. And decentralized, uh, energy is one of them. So how does that work?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean just to set the scene, I mean data center demand in the UK is absolutely booming. Uh, and that's largely been driven by the explosive growth in AI. And so just, you know, even we expect, uh, by 2030, data center demand, AI driven demand is going to quadruple. Um, and that's largely been driven by the fact that just essentially the racks, which essentially was, holds the servers, uh, even about five years ago their typical capacities was about 5 to 10 kilowatts. And since then that's now increased to between about 100 and 150 for AI driven facilities. Ah, and what that really represents then in terms of the, the power demand is there's about 100 planning applications currently in the pipeline for data centers across the UK and that's about 50 gigawatts of additional capacity. But just to put that in perspective, um, the UK's current electrical output is only about 60 gigawatt hours. So there's currently a huge, huge bottleneck. And I think it's safe to say that we are very much moving away from a world where connectivity and land was the issue to one actually where it's secure in the electrical capacity is going to be the key constraint. So I mean in terms of a typical data center, traditionally uh, they have of their base load uh, provided by a connection to the grid and then for resilience and for backup they use on site generation. So that can be diesel generators and gas turbines. Um, but now in the uk what we are starting to see because of the long lead in times to secure the grid capacity, data center developers are coming up with innovative solutions to basically remove the reliance on a connection to the grid. And so what we are starting to see more of, um, not so much in the UK but I do think it's certainly um, going to come forward in the years to come are what we call micro grids. So essentially that's localized generation where all of the power is generated uh, locally through a combination of gas turbines, battery storage and smart demand response. And a really good example of that uh, that we've seen recently is in Ireland. So I don't know if you are aware but back in 2020 because of the huge amount of data centers being uh, constructed in and around the Dublin area, the Irish government introduced what was basically a monitorium. And what that meant is it was prohibited from developing any data centers in and around the Dublin area. So pure renewables. To get around that they partnered with AVK and what they developed was a M grid, um, that would power 110 megawatt hyperscale data center in and around the Dublin area with no connection to the grid for the initial phases. And so the power that was generated came through a combination of gas turbines, hm, battery energy storage, um, biodiesel for backup. Uh, and ultimately the PPAs that were entered into with ABP meant that up to 40% of the gas that was uh, utilized was purchased green gas via graph, um, green regos. And what that meant is that the um, all of the biogas was generated on site with within Ireland.

Speaker B: Biogas?

Speaker A: Yeah, so biogas. So that's the process through which anaerobic digestion creates electricity. And the byproduct of that, the biogas can be used to generate electricity and gas turbines.

Speaker B: So these are biogas plants, uh, on site?

Speaker A: No. So the biogas was procured via green gas, the ppa. Yeah.

Speaker B: In the US we've seen a lot of gas plants being built specifically to power data centers. But uh, from my discussions with other developers, it's not as easily replicated in Europe because of the higher ESG standards and higher decarbonization, uh, metrics. So building, getting permits for a new gas plant, even for a microgrid, is that feasible?

Speaker A: Yeah, it is getting more and more difficult, as you rightly point out, with ESG requirements. But what you tend to see is a combination. So for example, if a data center secures, um, a planning application and they have a connection to the grid, they have to be able to demonstrate that the ppa, the green PPA that they've signed up to, is actually generating additional generating capacity on the grid. And what I mean by that is that they're not cannibalizing existing grid capacity. So they have to be able to demonstrate that through this green PPA that has triggered investment in additional renewable generation in and around the area. Or at the very least it's reducing curtailment on existing renewable assets. And that's one of the ways that developers can get around the ESG requirements and continue to use, um, PPAs.

Speaker B: M. How straightforward is that in practice? Because, uh, with the capacity that you've rightly pointed out is currently being proposed, you would need to have developers that are, uh, I suppose that are, uh, very experienced or that have done these projects in the past to have all these. The PPAs, the generation, the uh, we're going to get into this. But the other, um, decarbonizing the ancillary facilities of data centers, that seems like, uh, a very large undertaking for the kind of developers we see actually proposing these projects.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean they're very, very complicated energy systems. So you need a lot of technical expertise right across the project lifecycle. You know, not just in terms of the energy generation, but in terms of the commercial structure and the financial leveraging. But I think you have to remember that, you know, data centers have been around for a long time. Um, the financial boom in the 1980s really triggered that explosion in data centers. So we do have a lot of experienced personnel, not just in UK but across Europe. And what we are starting to see is much, much more innovative solutions. Like I mentioned about the pure data center in Dublin, whereby actually coming up with creative solutions to reduce reliance on the grid, uh, for an electrical supply and ultimately being able to generate a greater proportion on site in and around the data center.

Speaker B: So you've brought this up uh, briefly the uh, aspect of AI data centers, which I mean every data center application uh, lately will have some sort of an AI inference to it which also brings up the problem of heat generation and how you kind of sequester the waste heat. And one of the uh, again this has been around for a while, sequestering the waste heat for district heating in the UK and that's been, correct me if I'm wrong, that has been done in the past in the uk.

Speaker A: Uh, so it's an interesting question actually and I think just, just to me, just to set the scene in terms of district heating in the UK, um, there's currently around 14,000 registered heat networks but that only equates to around about 3% of their supply and around 3% of the um, UK's overall heat demand. So for the government to reach its net zero by 2050 commitments that number is going to have to increase to around 18 to 20% and that's going to take around um, 80 to 100 billion of investment between now and 2050 to be able to deliver that critical infrastructure. But we are way, way, way behind mainland Europe um, so district heating is much more developed over there. So just to put that in context, if you look at Scandinavian countries like Denmark, like Sweden, um, district heat and penetration is anywh 50 and 70%. And a good example of that is in Copenhagen where 95% of the city's heat demand um, is delivered by district heating. So there are lots of examples in mainland Europe of where data center waste heat is being effectively captured and utilized within heat networks. So you only have to look at Helsinki, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, um, for example. But in the uk as far as I'm aware we don't have a single data center that's providing waste heat to a city scale heat network. There's lots of really exciting projects in the pipeline that I can talk you through but we're really, really at the infancy in terms of how that's um, developing in the uk.

Speaker B: That's quite interesting because even uh, um, three, four years back, writing about hyperscale data centers, the heat uh, sequestration was always an element and that's never been

Speaker A: actually implemented to my knowledge, no. So I think it has previously been seen more of a box ticking exercise. But as you know to refer Back to Europe as an example. In Germany it's now a legal requirement. So under the Energy Efficiency act which was recently passed, uh, from, from this year, from 2026, all the all new build data centers have to be able to secure an offtake for at least a proportion of their waste heat. And it's similar in Paris which again there's you know, much, much larger penetration of heat networks across the country. All data centers over a megawatt have to future proof in anticipation of a future waste heat supply. And at the minute whilst it's nice to have in the UK it's not a requirement as part of planning um, to be able to, to provide that waste heat to um, local heat networks

Speaker B: but does that again when we talk about these data centers there's a lot of innovation in the cooling systems. You have air cooling, liquid cooling and I'm sure there's gel cooling of some sort in Australia. Um, does that affect your ability to sequester the heat?

Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. So I mean traditional data centers up until very recently before the AI boom would have, would have just been air cooled systems. There are you know obviously dependent on the demand. There are sort of wet chilled systems. But now with the ever increase in data center demand and capacity that requires much more electricity, which requires much more coolant and as a result of that we're looking at more liquid cooling systems and that's absolutely ideal for district heat networks because that means that the waste heat comes out at a higher temperature. So for a heat network developer to capture that then they have to use less electricity to heat that up to the required temperatures which is anywhere between maybe 60 and 80 degrees to um, pump that round via their um, district heat network. So we're definitely seeing a movement towards higher volumes of waste heat at a higher temperature which is only beneficial for waste heat offtakes.

Speaker B: So um, liquid cooling is ideal for waste heat. Are there any that are close to implementation?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great question and I'm really glad to be able to say that actually there are several in the pipeline that are very, very close to construction. So a really good example of that is a company called Deep Green. So they are an independent data center developer and operator. So they're actually backed by Octopus Energy. And um, central to Deep Green's business model is that they co locate their data centers in proximity to city scale heat networks. And um, actually I used to the company I used to work for before I joined Amberside Advisors so that was one energy they were a developer of low carbon um, Heat networks in and around the uk and their heat network is currently under construction and due for commissioning later this year. And Deep Green has just secured plan and approval for a 5.6 megawatt data center to be located just next door to the Bradford Energy Network. And the idea is then that that low grade heat will be supplied to the Bradford Energy Network and that will in turn be heated up and transported around the city to the council buildings, to Bradford University, Bradford College and several other buildings in the vicinity. So really exciting project and it's really great to see that that's the first one, uh, to get off the ground. There's also quite a few in the pipeline on much, much larger scale that I can talk to you about. So, um, there's a major redevelopment area called Old Oak and Park Royal or OPDC. So that's one of the UK's major redevelopment projects. So it's earmarked for I think up to 10,000 residential units. It's in West London. And um, there's also about five existing data centers there. It's more of a sort of, you know, industrial site. As part of the plans for that site, Hemico, which is a developer and operator of heat Networks, they secured 36 million of government grant funding in the form of the Green Heat Network Fund. So that's a government grant that's open to the public and the private sector. So they secured 36 million million to develop a city scale heat network there. And the initial heat studies indicate, um, that there's actually enough waste heat from both the existing data centers and the five data centers which are currently in plan to supply that whole site with low carbon heat. And it's estimated that those phases are going to build out way past 2040 and that could be up to a 600 million pound investment by Hemico to develop a cityscale heat network in that redevelopment area.

Speaker B: Just the heat network or does that

Speaker A: just the Heat network 600 million.

Speaker B: That was going to be uh, another aspect to it, this heat networks, um, uh, sort of not powered by, but that use waste heat from data centers. How uh, economically efficient are they? Like do you need uh, public funding to make them commercially viable for the developer?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a really good question and I think just to go through sort of brief history in the UK of how heat networks have developed previously. The main source of heat was from combined heat and power units. So they use gas to generate electricity and the heat was a by product and that was sold because of the margins on the electricity sales. Heat networks were really, really profitable. But as we transition to net zero and we want to move away from fossil fuel gas, we're using less CHPs and we're looking at more electrified heat. And the margins on that are much, much less. So quite often they do require government grant support or subsidies. But what it really depends on, you know, location is absolutely key. So if you have a high heat demand, so when you're a dense urban area with lots and lots of, of big buildings using a lot of heat, and that's coupled with um, waste heat sources in close proximity, so that could be data centers, that could be, you know, industrial heat, that could be energy from waste plants. And as long as you have that high density plus the um, low carbon heat in close proximity, then these networks do wash their face without subsidies. Um, but again it's really on a case by case basis.

Speaker B: So it's not latency, but it's the distance. But don't you have, don't you run into the chicken and egg problem? Because they want uh, these data centers to be in less populous areas for obvious reasons, for uh, you know, uh, to reduce the load uh, on the grid. But you need them to be closer to populous areas for this uh, additional infrastructure to be profitable.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're absolutely right. But I think what we are starting to see more and more of and especially in the UK are edge data centers. So that's much, much smaller data centers only maybe from 100 couple of hundred kilowatts up to a few megawatts. And what that means is it's much, much easier to get a grid connection. They don't have to do reinforcement studies. They can get planning much. And the advantage of that is latency as you suggest. So they're much, much closer to the data center demand. And what that means is from a location perspective, they're ideally placed right next to city scale heat networks where there's high heat demand. And it's really, it's a match made in heaven if you can line those up. The key thing, it's really a question of timing. It's much, much difficult to go back retrospectively and retrofit a heat network or retrofit an existing data center. So the key thing is really, you know, during the development stage is, you know, the data center industry speaking to the heat network industry and making sure that where there are opportunities, that there are co location and that they develop um, along the same program.

Speaker B: So this has to be from the very start. But is there a scale element to this? Like does the data center or the facility need to be of a certain size or capacity for the heat network. The uh, investment to be profitable.

Speaker A: Yeah, so there's no hard and fast rule. I think the key thing to bear in mind is the cost of the infrastructure to connect the data center to the heat network is extensive. So the further the data center goes from the heat network, the more capital you have to invest. And it's basically underground pipe, but it can be anywhere between 2,000 and 5,000 pound a meter to instruct that, to construct that. So the further the data center is located from the heat network then the more difficult it is to make the business case work. But equally, if you have a data center with large, large volumes of higher grade waste heat in proximity to a heat network which is developed, which is mature, which is a high, high heat demand, then maybe the distance start to matter. A But there's no hard and fast rule. It's not quite black and white. It really is a combination of, you know, what's the available waste heat, how far is that from the network and what is the capacity of that heat

Speaker B: network, but the uh, underlying infrastructure. So for the smaller edge data centers, so you would need to sort of um, replicate the same uh, investment several times over as opposed to doing it once maybe at a bigger scale. At um, the 400 megawatt uh, project in Slough they're proposing, let's see how, where that will go. But is there an element of like beyond a certain um, uh, below a certain capacity, the, the sunk cost, the infrastructure cost would be not.

Speaker A: Yeah, potentially. I think the thing to bear in mind that the technical solution is really straightforward. So you know, you know, all the data center has to be able to do is ring fence a footprint, you know, within their site. So that's for a small plate heat exchanger. So that's basically you know, a metal plate with a high surface area that can transport that heat. And then you need an easement within the site to run the pipe between the data centers and the heat network. So you know, smaller scale projects can work. Again, it just comes down to that question of, you know, does the demand match with the supply?

Speaker B: Okay, um, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So, okay, now moving on to the bigger facilities. Is that actually possible in London? Building a 400 megawatt facility, is that actually sustainable?

Speaker A: I mean difficult from a planning perspective. In the first instance I think there's, you know, with all the community benefits in the world that, that a uh, developer can put on the table, it's going to get a Lot of pushback both from politicians and the local community. So I think it's going to be difficult to see many hyperscalers in the center of London. But actually an exception to that is in um, opcd, which I mentioned before, they are actually looking at pretty large data centers, hyperscalers in and around that area because it's a redevelopment area, it was previously an industrial zone, it wants to develop as a digital hub. And actually in those specific areas you know there could be opportunities. I think the biggest challenges that we have in the UK first of all is for hyperscale data centers is the cost of electricity. So you can see most of the hyperscalers, they're very well developed in the States and the Nordics for example. That's one of the big barriers. The other barriers, as the data center gets bigger then that's more and more difficult to get, get uh, a connection to the grid. But even at local level, you know the gas infrastructure to be able to secure enough green PPAS MHM to deliver a 400m megawatt data center, to be able to demonstrate that the power that you're utilizing is incremental is quite a challenge in the uk.

Speaker B: You must be aware of Drax, uh Group, the energy utility listed energy utility. They're also kind of uh, it feels like everyone is uh, trying their hand at data center development but what they're doing is using the existing infrastructure to place a data center. So they have a drawdown at their power station drawdown um, so they have technically the grid connection place and they're going to put a large scale facility. So I think initially they're talking about something around 100 megawatts. So once you have all that in uh, place so the uh, source to power the primary um, infrastructure asset which is the data center, once you have that in place, how would you go about um, the ancillary facilities? So there's a lot of using uh, solar on site, solar generation, battery storage to power the heating system, the cooling system. Not the heating system, the cooling system that the data centers uh, use. So how would you go about uh, developing that? Is that a requirement, like to have that decarbonisation element to the ancillary facilities in the uk or can you just do it without?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I mean it really depends on the space that's available in and around the site because you know, as you can appreciate, you know, you know whether it's a solar farm or whether it's um, on site, wind does tend to require quite a large footprint and it doesn't tend to provide the capacity needed for these large data centers. So yeah, there could be a small element of the renewables which are generated and delivered on site. But I think ultimately the majority of the renewable um, electricity that these large data centers are going to procure is via green PPAs and that's essentially you know, off site generation. But been able to demonstrate that the um, that the power is incremental.

Speaker B: Is that a requirement of the planning permission that they do have some element of a renewables uh, mix into the power usage?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, so essentially trying to utilize the space on site. So as you say whether that's you know, on site solar, you know, battery storage, etc. So yeah, but, but again I think the planning departments across the UK appreciate that data set. It will be close to impossible to uh, power, you know, a hyperscale Data center with 100% renewables.

Speaker B: Yeah, just coming back to uh, well we're here in London, but the wider flap d markets as well, the amount of capacity in data center capacity, processing capacity that's being pledged to these uh, markets. Is there a bubble element to it? Like how much of that is really deliverable?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I mean it would certainly be easy to conclude that there's a bubble not just in the UK datacenter market but you know, all across Europe. So you only have to look at the large number of um, speculative grid applications that we're seeing on the grid. We're seeing significant land banking from um, developers and investors. And what does that mean? Land banking essentially means that developers choose not to sell the land. They're holding on to it because they think there will be more value in the future whenever grid connections do become available to develop data centers. So the constraint is being able to secure the capacity from the grid.

Speaker B: Is that a big problem now?

Speaker A: Not so much of a problem but it's a bit of a telltale sign that um, there's an expectation that data centers are going to continue to be a requirement and the value associated with that land is going to go up and up. I think really the telltale sign is actually the volume of announced capacity far exceeds what can physically be delivered with the existing infrastructure. So I don't think anyone can agree with the fact that the demand is real and that's largely ah, driven by AI and machine learning, cloud computing and you know, digitalization right across the economy. And because of this we're really starting to see a transition, you know, from a technology led market, um, to an infrastructure led market. But in terms of um, I don't think we're seeing a classic demand bubble. Uh, I think it's just that the market is restrained because the grids are constrained.

Speaker B: Yeah. So the grid connection is one of the major elements of uh, permitting and again like you said, the availability um, of land is there for uh, is there a um, technology risk with uh, data centers where we're talking about the technology is evolving so quickly and if it takes you anywhere from what, three to 10 years to get a good connection agreement, I think 10 is the uh, seven to 10 years, the average in the UK right now. So at that point you need to have your PPAs, green PPAs in place, potential energy generation on site if that's the way you're going, uh, end user in place and the kind of technology or um, I suppose uh, end use that is more suitable for the ultimate end user. So when you have so many ducks that you need to get in a row and there's one element which is the technology side of it that is so quickly evolving, is there a risk of these projects falling apart halfway through?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a huge problem and I think data center developers are totally put off. I think if they have to wait anywhere between five and years for grid connection, uh, it's a project killer. Because as you rightly suggest, the speed of the evolution of the technology, the amount of power that the technology is requiring really does mean that data center developers have a very short term outlook. So it's, it's becoming I think more and more common that you know, they will require developments to be able to get off the ground within a couple of years as opposed to waiting six, seven years.

Speaker B: That's certainly not possible. Come on, couple of years. You can't build a solar farm in a couple of years.

Speaker A: Well, I mean again I come back to the smaller scale. Mhm. Okay, so you know, again back to you know, back to the edge data centers co location in the uk. Mhm. I think they can get off the ground much quicker and I think the key thing is you know, if you can stay below maybe 10 MBA, that means that you know, you don't need reinforce, you potentially don't need reinforcement studies which again can fast track those grid applications and particularly if they are located within some of the AI uh growth zones that the government has announced.

Speaker B: So would it be ah, fair to say that the actual inference, when it comes to AI inference it would be the smaller uh, edge data centers that will uh, bear the brunt of uh, the usage rather than the Big hyperscale facilities that are being uh, pledged. Yeah.

Speaker A: So I mean certainly in the uk I think that's definitely uh, what we're going to see in the market in the coming years. And again it just comes back to the grid constraints and the long lead in times to secure in the capacity. So these smaller edge data centers can secure capacity much, much quicker. There's also, as I mentioned before, AI growth zones all across the uk so the government is really encouraging um, data center developers to invest in key strategic areas where they can fast track planning applications, they can invest in the reinforcements required to deliver the power on site. Ah. And all of this means that I think we are going to see smaller clusters of um, edge data centers dotted around London, Birmingham, Manchester. Um, so yeah, I can certainly see that as a trajectory of travel in the uk.

Speaker B: When we talk about data centers and AI and the growth of this sector, there's a lot of comparisons between uh, UK and us but it's not uh, apples to apples is it? Uh, it's not like for like not quite.

Speaker A: I think some of the parallels is we're definitely starting to see a much more favorable policy landscape in the UK and I think that that's comparable to the US so for example just uh, in 2024 I believe data centers have been classified as critical national infrastructure. In addition to that, uh, the government has identified several AI growth zones. And basically what that means is within these areas there's potentially going to be reduced electricity costs to facilitate uh, data center investment. There's also going to be fast track planning applications. So that's filter down even to local levels. So local planning teams are aware of the significance and the importance of the sector. And as a result data center planning applications aren't getting caught in all the bureaucratic red tape that we've seen previously. And then really the um, final point is just being able to facilitate and fast track grid connections. So that's basically prioritizing investment in upgrades to the transmission and the distribution within these AI growth zones. Which means we are going to start to see much, much more investment in data centers. So maybe on a smaller scale compared to what we see in the U.S. but equally, you know, a similar policy landscape.

Speaker B: So at ambersight Advisors, have you seen a, uh, change in the market attitudes towards these developments? Is there more demand for the smaller ones? Is there increased uh, I suppose projects going through to permitting, um, and ultimately delivery?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I think you know, previously data centers, you know, maybe people didn't know too much about them. They have started to get maybe a bad reputation just because of the amount of power they consume, the constraints that they're causing on the grid, the amount of water that they consume. So I mean there, I think there sort of needs to be clear message from the industry in terms of, you know, this is absolutely critical infrastructure. It's, it's not a nice to have. It's not just for powering TikTok or watching videos on your phone. It's you know, across all sectors, whether it's healthcare, whether it's defense. Data centers are absolutely critical. And you know, as I mentioned before, they're now classified as um, national critical infrastructure. One of the key sort of drivers which can improve the perception of data centers, particularly in the UK is if they can actually demonstrate sort of being able to supply waste heat to the local community. And I think, you know, as I mentioned before, deep, deep green or a data center developer, they're demonstrating that really clearly that's a core part of the business model. Ah. And if you can show that actually you're going above and beyond minimum requirements and you're actually actively looking at ways in which you can, you know, reduce uh, your power requirements, drive efficiencies, um, and ultimately give something back to the community, whether, and that's, and that's quite often the case of low carbon heat, then that will be deemed favorably from a planning perspective.

Speaker B: So you're seeing a lot of developers uh, having to uh, sort of bring on board different skill sets before they even come to planning these facilities. Unlike just this is the shell, this is what it will host.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's even things, you know, you know, battery integration, demand response, being able to show that they're actually an energy producer, not just an energy consumer. And that's something that really you know, we're starting to see with these localized offs off grid, micro grid data centers across Europe. And I think if that can be develop more in the uk, that's definitely going to you know, improve the image of data centers. Um, yeah, across the uk.

Speaker B: So again uh, I think everyone across the uh, board will complain about the grid, but it's uh, crucial to these assets. Um, and we have uh, quite a substantial pipeline that is scheduled for delivery by 2027 which is less than a year away now. So is there enough being done from the public side, the policy side in the UK to actually make this happen?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I mean it's very, very challenging and I think you know, there's a very finite window as to how you can fast track some of these developments coming online. But one interesting thing that we have seen recently in the market is that niso, so that's the National Energy Systems operator, so they essentially control the, they run the electricity grid in, um, Britain. So they have actually introduced quite a few reforms to try, um, and remove some of the speculative or the zombie applications within the pipeline. So as a good example of that, just very recently now, if you submit, uh, an application to the grid for a power supply, you have to be able to demonstrate that you have heads of terms in place with the landowner. In addition to that, they have some really stringent milestones. So you basically have to demonstrate that from when a connection offer is signed within a certain number of months that you actually have to have spades in the ground and you're constructing this. And the hope is that that will start to remove some of that speculative demand. And it's, I think at the minute really clogging up the electrical supply on the grid.

Speaker B: So, uh, you think we'll see a lot more greenfield activity in the sector very soon?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's the key thing really that I think we're going to start to see more of is actually data center developers partnering with, um, renewables developers, because they go absolutely hand in hand. And as I say before, you know, you really need to be demonstrating that, that the power that you're consuming is, um, incremental and it's not cannibalizing existing power. So I think, um, much more frequently you're going to have, you're going to see data center developers really acting more like energy generators, uh, as opposed to consumers. Um, and I think, you know, across mainland Europe, that's, that, that's, that's much more mature than what we have here in the uk.

Speaker B: Zorkin. I think, uh, I, we need to have another part to this chat because I feel like there's a lot to unpack. Not just on the technical side, on the permitting side, and obviously at Amberside, um, advisors, you advise, uh, these deals through to delivery. So, uh, I would very much like to understand how it works in practice as opposed to just the theory and the astronomical amounts of money being pledged to the sector. What, uh, people would have thought as fringe maybe five, ten years back are becoming central to these developments. And it's uh, the energy aspect you have to think about from day one. So it'll be interesting to see how this, uh, sector evolves. But Lorcan, thanks again for your time today. It was a very interesting chat and I think I've learned quite a bit.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me on the show.