Unlocking Geothermal Energy :career insight with Gabrijel Grubac

Speaker A: Hello everybody. You are warmly welcome to another episode of Energy Buzz. Yes, Energy Buzz. My name is Richard Boubier and I'll be your host for today's podcast. The Energy Buzz podcast is proudly brought to you by the Career Guidance and Outreach committee of the Society of Petroleum Engineers Ghana section. We are here to explore bold ideas, breakthrough technologies and the professionals shaping the future of energy. And today we are talking about falling in love with something sustainable and transformative. Geothermal energy. In this episode, we are unlocking geothermal energy. Yeah. Login and to unlock we need a key. Right. Introduce. Introducing our key guest speaker and seasoned engineer, Mr. Gabriel Rubach. So, giving a brief of Mr. Gabriel's. Mr. Gabriel is currently a senior completions engineer at uh, at Mazama Energy where his work is focused on enhanced geothermal systems and super hot rock geothermal development. He is a completions and stimulation engineer with over uh, a decade of experience in the global energy industry, working across the United States, Europe and the Middle east in onshore and offshore assets. His current focus lies in enhancing the future of super hot rock and building systems that enhance uniformity in stimulation. He is also actively involved and engaged in geothermal and energy education through sp. Wow. I really want to be like you when I Grow up, Mr. Gabriel. That's.

Speaker B: Yeah. If uh, if you follow your passion, you'll probably be able to do something a little more meaningful than uh, some people that don't follow their passions do. So that's the one big advice I can give you.

Speaker A: Okay. So very good day Mr. Gabriel. And please, how are you doing?

Speaker B: Hi. Good uh, day Richard. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. And thanks for um, bringing up this really important topic, energy world, that's really gaining a lot of momentum and my belief is going to redefine the energy structure of the world in the coming future.

Speaker A: All right, once again, welcome to Energy Bars podcast. So first of all we'd like to ask, what is geothermal energy? What I see is geology, heat and energy. How does, how are these linked together?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, so geothermal energy is essentially a form of energy that has existed for as long as we know of the planet itself. And it's essentially the heat beneath our feet. One super interesting thing about that is as you go deeper into the ground, um, the temperature increases, there's a geothermal gradient and this heat is being generated and flows through different kind of layers to different parts of the planet itself. And you'll see that in some areas in the world you'll have hotter temperatures, the shallower Depths because of a difference in geothermal gradients and the structure and geology that comes with it. And something that comes to mind would be, you know, the famous geothermal, uh, settings like Iceland, where you know, you're in drilling 2km and you start seeing really, really hot temperatures. Or Indonesia or Philippines for that matter, Turkey, Italy, some areas that are extremely famous in this domain. But one thing that's also changing recently with what geothermal is the ability to harness this heat. No matter, um, the depths that we would have to reach to get it, it's very abundant. If you were to run the numbers, current potential of available geothermal energy surpasses any kind of numbers that the planet needs on a daily basis. And that's why it's extremely important. The potential is there, it's how do we harness it? And it's been around for years and decades, but in the past five years it's gained a lot more momentum from, from all sorts of, um, domains starting with shallow geothermal. So essentially you drill some meters into the ground and see how can you harness that heat through for heating houses, um, or even cooling houses during the summer, right, there's that application or you know, as you start getting deeper, using it for district heating and little, um, building complexes or cities, little districts that you can use it for. And then as you go hotter, start utilizing it for power production. And this is where a very strong beauty of geothermal comes around is the ability to harness hotter temperatures, right? You convert that thermal energy into mechanical energy on surface and then use the power that comes with it to essentially power cities in the future. And that's been one of my main focuses within the super hot rock and super hot rock, if you think of it, is that limit beyond 374 degrees Celsius and 22 megapascals, this is where fluids become super critical. The density of the fluid starts changing, starts behaving differently. But what this temperature does is, is bring enthalpy, right, a lot more energy that you can harness. And why is this important? Because then with a smaller footprint, you can harness more energy, which then makes the projects more economic and they can start competing with the current energy resources around the world. So it's a very exciting time. Again, I repeat, we did not just discover geothermal energy. It's been around for ages. But what we have discovered is that it has gained tremendous momentum around the world. And this is the time to work on it and make it a real, a real contributor to the, to the world energy mix.

Speaker A: Thank you very much. M. Mr. Gabriel, I heard you talking of other countries, Asia and then several other countries, but I didn't actually grab any African country or any of that. How is geothermal energy going to benefit or be implemented in the. Africa. In Africa and any country that's actually located in Africa.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question Richard. You know, I mean Africa has one of the biggest potentials and one of the countries that has, that's, that's a leader essentially in the geothermal world and that would be Kenya. Right. Um because that area is driven by the East African Rift. Right. And the capacity, it's in gigawatts, so it is a leader. And actually Kenya is ranked within the 10 global leaders in the world of installed gigawatt capacity. Right. And if you think about the percentage of electricity that comes from geothermal in Kenya, it's pretty high. It's uh, it's in the tens of percents and even more. And so that is a great example of how geothermal energy works in Africa. There's quite uh, some events that are being planned this year as well in terms of workshops and focuses on how can this be expanded not just within Kenya but in other areas in Africa. Nations like you know, in Ethiopia, in Djibouti, in Tanzania, Uganda. Uh, so you know there's, there's work that's being done in terms of continue developing geothermal India, uh, in the, in the continent itself. So it's really the question going to be what kind of projects are we looking at? Because if you're looking for shallow geothermal, those are quote, quote easier projects to implement because of the experience and the physics that's already well known. Um, and you can quotes, codes, copy paste projects from around the world depending on what the use for it is. Right. But as you start drilling deeper it's a very simple one to one situation. Right. Some countries will have temperature at shallower depths and so it's easier to drill, cheaper to drill, it takes less time, it makes the projects more economic. And in some countries you will find that the geothermal gradient is not as great. Right. And you will have to drill deeper to get to hotter temperatures. And once you start drilling deeper, these are longer wells, it takes a longer time, it changes the whole economics. Right. You have to keep in mind that in order to make geothermal part of the whole system you have to, to merge it with a, ah, with the infrastructure. Right. So there's work that needs to be done in that domain. But Africa is seeing a big um, is led by the Kenyan geothermal Potential and all the work that has been done there. And now we're figuring out that, you know, there's a lot more countries that have this capacities and capabilities. And, and this is where some of the investment needs to go in, is to start, uh, spreading out the capabilities.

Speaker A: Okay, great. Ah, talking of the drilling, you know, in the oil and gas industry, also drill at all as well. But how is the drilling in the oil and gas industry different from that in geothermal energy? Is this similar?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's, that's a, that's another great question. Um, one of the big things about the geothermal world is this. It has a very strong synergy with the oil and gas. Right. If you think of it, it's subsurface in the oil and gas. We're going after the hydrocarbons and trying to extract them to surface so we can use it for energy purposes. Now you look at your thermal. What we're trying to do is trying to extract the heat, right? So what that is the value that you're looking for is how do I extract the heat? And you target this. You know, speaking more about the potential itself, you can kind of divide it in two groups. Let's say one would be more permeable layers. They're called hydrothermal systems. So you have a piece of rock that has permeability, and, and now you can pump some cold water from the surface. It, it permeates through the reservoir through this available permeability, and you harness the heat and then you bring it back to surface. Or this has been very famous. Um, it's been around for a long time. And a lot of the systems exist in that way. But the challenge with that is you don't really find permeable rocks everywhere. And so what do we do with that? And then the next part is, okay, we can find rocks that are really hot, super hot, but they have low permeability. So now we have the chance to create our own reservoir, create the permeability itself in order for you to pump that cold fluid through those pathways that you've created and stimulated and bring the heat to surface. On the drilling side, rocks can be different. The mineralogy is different, right? Sedimentary rocks in the oil and gas are different from, you know, let's say volcanic rocks and geothermal systems. But some hydrothermal systems will occur in sedimentary systems, right? So it's about permeability. When you get to, to systems where you want to develop an geothermal system, then those rocks are more abrasive, they're harder, harder to drill through. They can take a longer time in terms of ropes, which stands for rate of penetration as you're using the drilling technologies. But it's been done, it is being done, it is being optimized. So from that perspective, really the biggest difference that I see is thermal management. Because if you were in oil and gas, usually the temperatures, most of the projects will, you know, the hottest be between 150 and 200C. There's obviously some, let's say, um, some other examples that might exist. Right. But in geothermal you have to drill a lot harder than that. And the technologies that we have now, they can safely drill up to 175 degrees C with, you know, proper cooling down hole. Some of them are being pushed to the limit of 200 to 210C. But that is uh, one of the biggest differences. How do you manage cooling, the tools that you're using for the drilling? And big strides are being done in this. We have done projects where we can prove that we can drill a 330 degrees C and be able to manage all this efficiently. So drilling is turning out to be not the biggest challenge, um, just because of the strong synergy with the oil and gas and really good planning and good thermal management down hall. So yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So considering the global energy transition, what role does geothermal energy play?

Speaker B: Well, you know, I could talk about that for hours. I know we don't have that much time, but this role is extremely important as the world looks for solutions of decarbonizing the energy realm. Um, it has been successful in some areas and very unsuccessful in others. And but the beautiful thing about geothermal, not only that it's sustainable and clean, it's very abundant. So that will never be the issue. And it's baseload. And if you hear the word baseload, really what it means is available 24 7. Right. You think of other sources of energies. And by the way, I am not, I'm saying this is a sense of comparison. Um, every form of energy has its own place and its own applicability. But solar energy, for example, will work when the sun is out there. Right? Um, or wind energy will work when wind is available. And then when it's not, some other system will have to kick on. And that's where the synergy with geothermal has also been seen as. Can you build a system that relies on solar and wind and then when they're not available, kick on the geothermal system and you know, there's, there's much value in that. But geothermal comes with abundance so numbers are not an issue. Comes with already pretty good experience in drilling and developing the systems. Comes with the fact that it's around 24. 7. And comes with another big point point which is it doesn't always have to be just the areas that are famous today. You know, where there is volcanics and we know that these temperatures are close to the surface because the technologies that are being worked on today should allow us to drill anywhere deep enough to reach these temperatures. And so if you think of that, then a place that doesn't have access to hydrocarbons and struggle struggles in the energy round. You know, for having to import energy, you have the availability to drill and get the heat out. This changes the whole concept. So the impact on the transition for the future is huge. Yet realistically right now geothermal doesn't play a huge role. Percentage wise we're in a.0.5.6% as a primary source around the world. But the plans and the investments that are being made right now should be kicking that number up in the coming future. So you got to keep an eye out. One thing I'd like to say is the 2000 and twenties, this decade is really like the decade that used to be in the 2000s for quote, the Shaler revolution where it changed the whole energy system in the US and abroad. Uh, this decade is the one where we're investing in geothermal and we will see the results of that in the coming years. So long as this is continued.

Speaker A: All uh, right. Looking out, I just got a grasp of uh, geothermal energy. This is actually my first time hearing of something competing with the oil and gas industry. Like the same drilling. When I hear Julian, what comes to mind was mining in the petroleum industry. But now I've gotten to know about geothermal energy. So I wanted to know your journey, how you discovered this field of geothermal energy and what are the skill and academic requirements to get into this space?

Speaker B: That's a great question, Richard. Um, my background is in the oil and gas. So I've been around in the oil and gas for a while since I graduated in the United States and started working. I worked internationally quite a bit offshore and onshore and had the privilege to see some beautiful places on this planet and work with some pretty amazing people. You learn through the process. And then at one point I uh, attended a webinar that talked about completion systems. And then there was this very renowned scientist from Switzerland that spoke about enhanced your thermal systems and really that, that, that got me really intrigued. So I started reading about it and you know, you start reading about your thermal energy and you realize, wow, it just makes a lot of sense, right? It really does. We have the skills in the oil and gas to, to transpose. So when you think of the skills, right, Think of it this way. You look for oil and gas, you drill, you look for geothermal, you drill the oil and gases. The subsurface, whether it is trapped or not, is within rocks, types of rocks, mineralogy, porosity, and the systems themselves. You look for geothermal, we're looking for systems that can flow fluids, okay? So we're talking for permeability again. Then we're talking about hot rocks. So the deeper you go, the hotter it gets. Makes a lot of sense. So we're trying to extract energy. And what are those kills? Well, those are subsurface kills. So whether you're in drilling or whether you're in completions or you are in geo geosciences or, you know, geology, geophysics and production operations, each and every facet of that is very applicable to geothermal. So that's the beautiful part, right, is the skills that you've attained now through college, if given the opportunity, you can transpose them into geothermal. Obviously you need some refining, right? You need to shift your mind a little bit because now you're not extracting hydrocarbons, but you're really trying to get the heat out of the ground. So what are the systems that require that from a physics standpoint? But the transition is extremely, um, can be extremely smooth. Given the right environment around you, it can be very smooth. And the other beauty of it is that you can do both things at the same time, right? You can be involved in any kind of subsurface engineering and still be able to get to geothermal. So when you think of skills, if you're doing geosciences, drilling, completion, production, very transposable. So if you're in it already, it shouldn't be too hard to transition. If you're in the AI world, data worlds, basically, it's the amount of information available is different than in the oil and gas world, right? Because the number of wells is different. We know we're talking about hundreds of thousands of wells with hundreds of wells, of thousands of wells. So that part quotes, quotes is lacking. But if you have the skills, you can transpose them. So that's the easy part. If you're interested in geothermal and you like the concept, depending on where you are geographically and what are the capabilities within your company and companies available, you'll have to do your own homework. In that domain. But when it comes to knowledge, if there is a passion, the transition is quite smooth.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm um, I'm already convinced to transition from petroleum down to Joe Tail. Yeah, I really, I really want to switch.

Speaker B: What is it that drives you?

Speaker A: My drive?

Speaker B: Yeah. What is it that drives your, your, your switch to Geotroma?

Speaker A: Looking at how the energy, the petroleum industry is looking down, everyone is switching from. Yeah. The normal of petroleum to the green energy. Yeah. So I don't know, it might not be now, but in some years to come.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Petroleum might not have that ah, dominance it has now.

Speaker B: Well actually Richard, you bring up a good point and really when you say that it really depends where.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because you have to think of it from a holistic standpoint. Yes, we want more sustainable sources of energy, but what does that mean for the local communities? Right. If you want a uh, true change, you have to change the infrastructure and you have to make the system in such a way that it helps you grow locally. Right. So if I'm in a community that doesn't have an infrastructure that allows a variety of energy systems and in order for me to do geothermal it means changing the whole concept, um, and having to pay really high prices from the get go. I'm not sure that that is the best way to go. Right. The best way to go is somewhat of a transition addition. So hydrocarbons have been around for so long, they've enabled the lifestyles that we live and it's pretty, I would say it would be unfair to ask from some countries to just directly switch to a single system. Now if they have the ability to, and uh, the community is designed for that, then yes. Otherwise oil and gas is still playing a pretty big role. And I can tell you for the development of geothermal oil and gas has been critical because we're transferring technologies, we're transferring knowledge. There's a lot of oil and gas companies around the world that are now investing heavily, try to invest heavily in geothermal and keep supporting it. So you will find yourself, Richard, at one point where the skills you created now will not mean switching completely, but it will mean you having multiple skills that you can switch if you want to. Right. And then you can always go back if you wanted to. And I think this is where the real value lies is that you'll have the choice of where you can apply your skills only if you spend the time right now in learning about your thermal and educating yourself and becoming better at, you know, the discipline that you're doing. So Ah, yeah.

Speaker A: Speaking of the skills to switch, what do you think are the key technical and soft skills required to succeed in this career path? That's geothermal energy. So it could switch between.

Speaker B: It so depends on the domain that you're in. You know, if you're into drilling, then it's drilling itself. Right. So if you're highly technical in one domain, you will just have to transpose that into the geothermal world. One of the big helps that I found if you're starting in geothermal is understanding the subsurface, the reservoir. So you always want to, uh, start from the basics. You know, one is like, what type of geothermal systems do we have? Um, what are these temperatures ranges that we're talking about? What temperature range do I need for district heating? What temperature range do I need for power production? What kind of geothermal plants do we have on surface? Depending on the fluid that you're bringing from the subsurface, what kind of systems does geothermal energy usually come? Like the type of rocks, the type of permeabilities, the type of depths. So I would always start from, from the subsurface. So I think from a reservoir engineering standpoint, I really like it because you start understanding the dynamics of subsurface pressure, temperature, um, modeling from the geosciences, flow data. And then how do you harness, you know, some in your career and, you know, in your student days, you always hear of OGIP or oil in place oip. Right. So, uh, the original oil in place and the original gas in place, and now you have heat in place. Right? How much heat do I have available? So my advice is start from a subsurface standing, you know, geosciences and reservoir, and then walk your way up. Because from a completion standpoint, it's really about material, uh, integrity. The sizes of the completions will vary. You know, you will run a, you'll run an oil and gas well with a four and a half inch or five inch or five and a half inch completion. Now you go to geothermal, you have to go 7 inch or 9 and 5, 8, because you need more flow area for, for more flow, because that flow will drive the amount of energy that you can get on surface. So it's really cool because you see.

Speaker A: Aha.

Speaker B: Uh-huh. I can use what I already know. I tweak things and need to understand what are the other factors that affects it. So start from a geoscience perspective. Do some geology work. It's always the basis of it all, and then take it from there.

Speaker A: All right. All right, so looking at uh, the oil, original oil in place and original gas in place, is it the same for the geothermal energy field where you have to determine these true exploration before you make decision to drill, to make commercial production quantities, to produce commercial quantities of the oil or maybe the heat energy?

Speaker B: That's a very good question, right? I mean, and yes, it depends on the type of system, right? So there's different kind of methods to determine what the heat in place is or hip for these resources because that's going to drive your field development plan. I mean the one thing about your thermal, it's sustainable and renewable. But as uh, you start extracting heat, that heat will replenish itself. So you have to plan for these things, right? And there's different ways of doing this. You know, if you, if you think from the reservoir engineering side of world, you know, a volumetric method, right. Um, you gather the data, you start understanding what the porosity, permeability, temperature looks like from the well log seismic data. You start doing stochastic analysis, you know, and then 3D modeling. Can you build a model itself of the area that you're looking at with the geological components to it and then you basically do a heat loss mapping, right? So what kind of processes do you have, whether it's conductive or convective and how is that looking like? And then you start putting your system in place depending on how you're planning to harness this heat. These projects, for example, in deep geothermal, when we're looking at hotter enhanced geothermal systems, you want them to last 20 to 30 years. You know, oil and gas wells sometimes last five to eight years, 10 years maybe. And then you got to start reworking them and doing all sorts of other interventions. But economic models allows you to. But when you think of heat in place and developing this, you have to start looking for long term production, right? And these systems can hold for that long, so long as you design them, correct? Right. So it's extremely important that you can get a, um, resource quantification at the beginning. What is the heat in place? How fast do I want to harness the heat and what is the purpose of it? Am I using it to heat houses and cities? Am I using it for power production, so clean electricity and where will it be? That's also extremely important. How am I tying this whole concept to the, to the areas that will be used? So, so it's really quite a, quite a process of putting it together. But the methodology or the analogy is very similar to oil, uh, and gas except the timelines are different.

Speaker A: Speaking of the production, as in the oil and gas industry, we have uh, the life cycle of the world where it gets to a point it starts to decline. So I wanted to know, is there a similar situation in relation to the geothermal energy where the energy, the heat energy in the subsurface is not enough, so you have to abandon the wall or, uh, get a different field to explore and develop?

Speaker B: Yeah, so that's, that's a concept that needs to be taken in consideration. If you're circulating a fluid and you're harnessing the heat from a certain area, there will be a limit to that. It depends what kind of reservoir have you created. But you run the calculations for this to last you 20 to 30 years. And then what you can do is start developing different segment. Remember, it is to go deeper, shallower, or laterally move into the rock where you haven't contacted and where you haven't taken the heat out. Why is your thermal beautiful? Because that heat that you have extracted will replenish itself through time. Right. Except that these timelines could be pretty long. So when you're doing the plan for a field development, you want to make sure that you take that into consideration. But you know that this is going to come back. Once you extract oil or gas, you know, you've extracted those molecules to start surface, you will have to look for more. It doesn't generate itself in a way. Right. And geothermal replenishes itself. It's exhaustible, but it replenishes itself. So really from a life cycle perspective is you want to plan all these from the exploration phase. Have you identified the site then you did your initial studies and you want to assess the resource. Right. So you, you will have to do like exploratory drilling like in oil and gas cc, if you've hit targets that you wanted, then you start constructing and developing the field. You have multiple wells, you, you do production drilling, you know, you want to do commissioning. So you want to uh, build a plant, get it ready for what you're expecting the surface, uh, production to look like. And then you operate and maintain these plants for long years. There's plans that have been around for decades in some places in the world. And then at the end, you know, you get into decommissioning phase in the site restoration, where, okay, we've, we've managed to harness what we were looking for. We now found a different prospect and you start getting into, you know, essentially like a PNA process, like nail and

Speaker A: gas knowledge and looking at Your experience in the oil and gas industry and the switch from that to geothermal energy. What are some practical tips for students currently navigating their early careers in the energy?

Speaker B: Practicalities in what sense?

Speaker A: Like tips for them to navigate their wage throughout the energy industry, whether they are status or already. So.

Speaker B: So one advice I would give, and I would have given myself when I was a student and I missed those beautiful days. So if you're listening to this right now and you're a student, bless the day when you wake up. Um, bless the opportunities that you have. Bless the time that you have because it doesn't come back and it is the time when you have a lot of energy and you're very, you know, hopefully you uh, have the privilege to have access to education and resources. Right. And we live in a world where information is quite available now. So, so my biggest tip from the very beginning would be, is find your passion. I mean, I am biased. I would love to see that there is more people in geothermal and that is happening right now. But find your passion. Find, find what drives you. You know, if you, and I say this a lot when I do my talks with students and young professionals is if you wake up in the morning and you don't feel like going to work a couple of days, that's fine. Or you don't feel like studying what you're doing, that's fine. But if this is a continuous thing, then that means maybe you're not doing what you're meant to be doing. So question that. Have the courage to pick the things that drive you because that's how you get good at uh, what you, you know, what drives quality is passion. If you're passionate about something, there's no doubts that you will be good if you put in the time. So the biggest advice I can give you from the very beginning or even later in your career, diversify your portfolio. There is situations where you are a niche specialist, right? So example, I specialize in completions and stimulation, but I always try to expand my knowledge. So I do readings on geosciences, I do readings on productions and heat harvesting. And you want to understand the system as a whole, to be, let's say, uh, a more full energy professional. So in order to do that, invest your time from the very beginning in courses. There is websites out there, there's resources that are free. Actually there is SP based events and even other organizations like the one that's coming this year. And in Nairobi, Kenya, the SP Geothermal Workshop, you know that we're organizing Together with SP Africa. And that's the whole goal is try to bring the community together, show them the opportunities that are available. So be curious in that sense. You know, see what can you learn and say, oh, I'm interested in reservoir engineering, but I want to understand how heat in place works. Okay, well let me see what I can find out on the Internet. What are the courses that are available? What are the processes? Talk to the people. Right? So start early. That's the biggest tip I can give you. Ask variable questions, look for different, you know, different sources of information and just keep educating yourself along with what you're doing right now. Because you find yourself when you graduate and you start working that what will make you stand out in the crowd is obviously a big part of, is your academic success. And that's. We can talk about it all day because it's a subjective approach, but it's also who you are, are as a person. How are you approaching problems? Are you curious? Are you inquisitive, Would you like to learn more? Or are you fully okay with what you're doing? And then that's completely understandable and acceptable. But if you want to push forward in geothermal, you're going to have to reach out, find resources, start reading about it. There's a bunch of webinars online. We have a website actually the Geothermal Technical section has a website from SPE where you can access tens of videos with data webinars on geothermal energy. So it is true, where there is a, uh, will, there is a way. I guess I can, you know, leave you with that message if you think of tips and tricks.

Speaker A: Great, great. Ah, looking with every job you find yourself in, there's always a challenge, a hurdle you commonly face in your line of work. What are some of the hurdles related to a geothermal, uh, energy engineer?

Speaker B: That can be a full day of answers, not because it's so difficult, but because the challenges are variable. Um, from a technical standpoint, right. In terms of what I do is okay, can we drill to these depths in these temperatures? Yes, we can. Can we create and engineer a reservoir? Because essentially that's what enhanced geothermal system is. Those are the questions that we have answered and we've, we've proven that we can. But the challenges still lie. Is what is the longevity of this system? So you have to think of how long can this system. I don't want the system to hold for days or weeks or months. I wanted to hold for years. So how do you build longevity factor of these? So I would Say that's a big, big one. Um, and the integrity aspect is these materials are subjected to high temperatures, corrosive environments. In terms of fluids, how often do I need to rework these wells? How will that affect the economic models for this system? So those are two aspects that you really link to think of from a technical standpoint. Um, the other challenges that lie as well, and those are true not just for geothermal world, but any energy world is, you know, earlier Richard, you mentioned soft skills. You have to find a way to work with people and make and build an environment where you grow. And you know, a lot of times you hear the word oh, communication is important. Absolutely. Communication is key. But what I find out throughout my career is that everybody talks about communication but nobody puts in the work. And while this might sound funny, it unfortunately it is true. And if you don't find a way to communicate, what are your goals, your technical goals and your career goals? And if you don't find a way to connect with your peers, build an integrated approach to a, ah, project, then it becomes a lot more challenging. Right. Because if I'm a stimulation engineer speaking to a drilling engineer, I need to convey to the drilling engineer of how m am I planning to create this reservoir? What do I need? The drilling engineer should be able to understand that. And then they plan the drilling operations to drill the wells exactly where we want them. And then it's a process where you work through it. Right. So it's a combination of things. Um, longevity of systems, how long can the system hold, Integrity of the systems, what materials are we using and how are they when you're subjecting them to different kind of systems, cycles, cooling the wells and the wells heat back and pressures. And then from a soft skill standpoint, interdisciplinary work, learn how to work with others. Learn that you will never always like everyone and never will everyone like you. And that is okay. But that is not what drives harmony in a team. What drives harmony in a team is understanding what the ins and outs are and then finding the common way of getting the project done.

Speaker A: So yeah, yeah, with soft skills, a lot of students, yeah, we sometimes find hard to develop these skills because we are just as engineers, uh, engineering students, we are less likely to be exposed to these technical skills. So how do we should we find a way or what are the resources we should try to implement to get these skills hands on, on our alone, without the classroom?

Speaker B: Yeah, good question. Um, so there's plethora of platforms out there that will educate you on soft skills. Right. There's A lot of webinars that you can attend that give you a sense of presentation skills, time management, communicating with others. And this is well known. So if you were to go Google right now, Richard, and look for these courses, you'd find them. You just have to want to do it. You mentioned earlier, we're engineers. True, the energy world is abundant in engineers, but it's also abundant in other aspects. Right. People that come from different domains and everybody comes in with a different package of characteristics. Right. And engineers always, we want to solve problems, we want to look at a problem, we want to solve a problem. And that's our goal, how we do it. That's where the process come in place. And so I think this is really important from a technical standpoint is to, to understand that your opinion of something and your analysis doesn't always have to be the best. Analysis in most cases won't be the best. But you have to be open to feedback. When you're open to feedback, that drives your soft skills capabilities. Because if you're able to allow someone else to give you an opinion and tell you, hey, I think you can do this better by doing this or this or I think you did this great, but you can change this and that. That's what defines your skills in working in these teams. Right? So courses are available, the resources are there. SPE plays a big role in this. And that's one of the reasons why we're so motivated within the geothermal section, which I really hope you guys are part of, and, um, it's very easy to join, is we have multiple resources, from technical webinars to webinars on, you know, soft skills. You can find them. Uh, the workshops that we're organizing, the collaborations with the other organizations, the YPS and Student chapters. Chapter One thing that for example, we're planning to do through our YP chair, who's quite an amazing individual, is start connecting universities more together to talk about geothermal and support them in ways that we can. Right. So you look at this holistic picture, one plus one will be two. And that's exactly how we're trying to build society is built bricks and give people the resources to build this house. And those resources will be through SP in our volunteering work through educational platforms and then what you do with it, well, uh, that is going to be on you. And we will just have to trust that you can extract the best out of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you very much. With the rise of innovation around the globe, AI, quantum computing and fast processing of information and all that how does these innovations look for geothermal energy?

Speaker B: Amazing. It looks great. And I can tell you there's actually a direct example. There was currently recently a big, uh, geothermal operator in the United States. I don't need to name them, but you can find them online. They managed to leverage the AI platforms, the AI capabilities and find a way to tag geothermal plates and essentially find them. Right. So can you use the AI capability capabilities for geothermal? Absolutely, yes. Is being used. Absolutely, yes. And it's growing a lot more. Right. So what we're trying to do within, for example, the work that I do as well is coupling different disciplines together, coupling the subsurface data together. Can we take a human approach to it and then allow the artificial intelligence part of it to give us, you know, insights? It is being done and it is being suggested. So big application, big synergy, big possibilities and very, very, very similar to what the oil and gas world would do, except the amount of data is less. So as we're building on that, we'll see what the future will hold.

Speaker A: Okay, looking at the markets gap right now, how does it look like for geothermal energy?

Speaker B: You mean, how does it look like in terms of development?

Speaker A: Yes, please. Like the value of the markets for geothermal energy?

Speaker B: That's a good question. Um, because of the moment momentum and the investment it has created, it's looking good. Um, the investments have grown quite a bit in 2025 and 2026. And if you look at, you know, the install capacity has increased, uh, from last year to this year as well, in the top 10 countries around the world. So those are all positive sites, right? We are. Well, because a lot of these technologies are in stages that will define their commercialism. Right. So a lot of pilot projects, for example, there's, there's projects that are very commercial right now. I mean, that is horizontal drilling and stimulation for lower enthalpy geothermal. It works in the sense that it works within that domain. Right. The work that we do is in hotter temperature super hot rock because we want to do more with less. So we want to drill less wells, but be able to harness a lot more energy. So the pilot project that we just had was successful in the United States and it's opening up the path to tap into super hot rock, you know, hit all those challenges. Because once we do that and it becomes a success, then the whole market changes. Because now you have a lot bigger capabilities and the growth can be exponential. But in order to get that, there's work that needs to be done and that's being done right now. So yes, more investment. Yes. More momentum. Uh, uh, yes, we're getting more success. And I'm really thinking in the next three to five years, really hope if you and I, Richard, talk in three to five years and look back, we'll say, wow, look at, where's your thermal status? So yeah, yeah, ah, I really hope

Speaker A: it gets that market value. That's appreciation. And to end it, how can we stay informed, um, and get involved with these geothermal, uh, energy industry leading organizations?

Speaker B: Very good question. Also pretty easy to do that. Uh, there's multiple sources that I can share with you maybe after this talk and maybe you can publish it as well. But one of the big ones, as the vice chair of the Geothermal Technical Section, I can tell you if you get involved with the SP Geothermal Technical Section, you're going to get access to a lot of educational materials, to a lot of um, conferences, conference opportunities, um, and it will open up the path for you to get more educated in this domain. So if you're an SPE member, you can opt for the geothermal Technical session. It's only a tick, it doesn't cost extra. And then you start receiving uh, geothermal news. We have a geothermal newsletter that we do every three months. And when we do this newsletter, it includes all the biggest, let's say the newest things. Geothermal. It includes links, it includes educational aspects to it. That's one, we have the webinars. That's two. We're organizing conferences like the one that we're co organizing with SP Africa Region and Nairobi, Kenya. And that will be a beautiful opportunity to be part of. And then you can always reach out to us directly and to our membership chairs. Because for every continent we have a membership chair and then we have a, uh, young professionals chair that works with students. So very available, very open. Any help that we supply. Um, if you only have the, you know, the interest and the curiosity that, that access to information is there.

Speaker A: All right, thank you very much Mr. Gabriel for the informative insights shared with us. So to end it all, what's your primary piece of advice? Like a final words for our listeners right now? M. Final words.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Richard. I, uh, always appreciate, appreciate the opportunity to reach out to students and young professionals out there. Really as some parting words on this, um, discussion and podcast would be what I said earlier, if you want to do something right, you have to like it. Most of the time there's people that can be good at what they do even if they don't like it, but that's not a very happy life. So you want to be passionate about what you do. You will hear a lot of the times this big bombastic news in the world. Oh, we are at the forefront of this and the forefront of that and that needs to stay around and stay ambitious. But this decade is one that's defining the geothermal world. And I think if we can push through in the next two to five years with all the work that is being done, with all the effort that is being done, like I just came back from a geothermal workshop at Stanford and presented there and we talked a lot about this and you could feel the energy of the people. So if we can keep investing into this right now, I really think this decade could be the turning point for diversification, uh, of energy. And then you just ask yourself at the end of the day if it's there, if it's available, if it's abundant and can be there 24, 7 and we can safely harness it, what is it that's stopping?

Speaker A: So before we officially close, we have our last session where we get to know our guests because we asked a few questions and get answers from you.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So our first question is, what has been the most defining moment in your career so far?

Speaker B: Good question. It's a great question and I will tell you, very straight answer. You actually caught me at a time where that has happened. And that was essentially last week presenting the work of the last two years of work we did in, um, the United States as the lead completion, stimulation engineer of this project. Being able to drill a, uh, 331C, being able to stimulate and connect the fractures, being able to create an engineer reservoir at these temperatures, working together with our team, with the peers and achieving that. I think that's been the turning point in a sense because I've realized that it's possible and that we are at the um, really important milestone for what the future of geothermal is. So I'd say the last two years, big sacrifice, big efforts, but it's high risk, high reward.

Speaker A: And outside of work, what keeps you inspired and energized?

Speaker B: M. Good question. Um, my family. You know, I've had my family support since the very beginning when I, when I left Libya a long time ago to go to college. Well, not so long ago. I'm not that old. But when I went to college and traveled the world around and what always kept me inspired were two things is the ability to go the support from the people you love, because with that you can do anything. And the second part is, you know, having the courage to make those decisions that are sometimes very uncomfortable. Whether that means having to leave the people you love for some time and have to invest in yourself. Because in life, everything comes at a price. And if you're willing to pay it, you will reap the benefits later. So those are the two things. It's the love and support from the people around you, and it's your ability to take the next step even when things look uncertain.

Speaker A: And last but not the least, what skill do you believe will be the most critical? Um, the next decade of energy development.

Speaker B: I would like to get very technical, but honestly, I'm going to tell you common sense. Um, if you. If you're educated and you give yourself an opportunity to improve yourself, you just need the ability to talk to people, the ability to connect with people, the ability to. To be open to this. Right. I really see this sometimes as a struggle in the energy world because. And not just the energy world. Even beyond that, when it comes to technical skills, there's specific skills that you can harness. Right. And I would be biased if I told you, okay, go learn about completion systems, because that's what I do. But that doesn't mean that it's. What would you want to do? So I don't think that per se is a defining factor. I think a defining factor would be your openness to diversify your skills. It is there. The resources are there. The question is, do you really want to improve yourself? Right. And if you do, then. Then you have the resources. Just go do it.

Speaker A: Great. Just go do it. Well, um, and to end it all, what is your hidden talents or hobbies?

Speaker B: What was that? Sorry.

Speaker A: Yeah, so the last question was, what is your hidden talents or, uh, hobbies?

Speaker B: Oh, I like reading books and I like traveling. I don't know if that counts as a hobby, but it's a requirement for my job. Seeing the world, seeing different places, it makes you understand that the way you see things is not the only way. So that allows you to live differently. So I would say traveling, reading. Oh, and then one thing that's really interesting is ultra marathons. I do them with my best friends once a year. We pick a spot in the world and we go run sl. Walk very long distance through deserts or forests. And these are amazing experiences. So. Yeah.

Speaker A: So what is your favorite book? Ever read?

Speaker B: Oh, good question. Organic Chemistry 3. No, that's a book that made me cry. Um, no, I read a lot of interesting books. I mean, lately, you know, one of My favorite, um, let's say writers right now is Dan Brown. I like, like those stories. And I'm reading Secret of Secrets. I suggest it to anybody you know that likes reading. It's a pretty good book. Um, and then Meditations, if I had to pick one that made me think a lot, it's, uh, by Marcus Aurelius. It's called Meditations.

Speaker A: Thank you very much, Mr. Gabriel, for your time. Has been a pleasure having you and we really appreciate the insights shared and hope to ponder on them and do better. If I'm going to living here with one lesson that's, uh, find your passion and drive and the rest will just align. Thank you very much, Mr. Gabriel.

Speaker B: Thank you, Richard, for having me. Uh, if you ever need anything in the energy world, I'll be there to support the abilities that I have and just keep driving this, keep supporting the rest, and tomorrow is going to be better.

Speaker A: All right? Sure. Yeah. So today we explored how geothermal energy is not just a technology by the growing career frontier. We discuss transferable skills from the oil and gas industry, innovation in drilling and subsurface modeling, and the mindset to drive in a changing energy ecosystem. So to end today's podcast, that's, uh, geothermal. Geothermal Energy Insights. Career insights with Mr. Gabriel Kubrick. I really appreciate your time and the necessary insight to share with us to our listeners. Thank you very much for tuning in. Stay curious, stay adaptable, keep your passing and your drive moving and push beyond boundaries in the energy space. My name is Richard Bobby and I've been your host for today's podcast. This is Energy Buzz and hope to see you in our next episode. Thank you very much.

Speaker B: Bye, Sam.