The Zone of the Unknown, Part 2

Speaker A: Everybody walks through seasons of uncertainty and ambiguity, especially when you're a leader. Today we're going to continue a, uh, two part conversation called the Zone of the Unknown. We're looking practically how do you lead yourself and others through seasons of ambiguity?

Speaker B: Hey everybody. Welcome to the Echo Leadership Podcast. My name is David, one of your hosts. I'm here with Andy Wood. And Andy, today we're jumping into the second part of a conversation on ambiguity and the zone of the unknown, which is everybody's favorite place to be.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Uh, there are times in our lives of uncertainty when we're leading, uh, times of uncertainty in our home and our family and everybody goes through it. And the way that we respond to the Zone of the unknown is crucial. It's crucial for our formation as leaders. It's crucial for the organizations that we lead. And so if you didn't listen to the last episode, we want to encourage you to go back and get the foundation of this conversation.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So go back to the platform that you, uh, your platform of choice where you listen to this is the August of 2022, um, episode. So you can still go to Echo Church leadershippodcast. That's Echo Church leadershippodcast. Sign up for the email. Um, because a couple of things, why you wanna sign up for the email and go ahead and subscribe right now is we mentioned in last month's episod episode, the first part of this one, there's some transitions coming.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And uh, one of those is your role. So at this time, listening, um, to this podcast.

Speaker A: Yeah, we are now, as you're listening to this, we're now in Southern California.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, you want to share a little bit about you guys.

Speaker B: Yeah, we are, um, in process of.

Speaker A: Yeah, you actually don't. You don't. This is pre decision.

Speaker B: This is pre decision. So we are in process of the. This is our Zone of the unknown. We're walking through as well in decision of being processing, uh, transitioning with you, um, to Southern California. And so we're walking right here. This podcast is not theory. This is actually happening right now for all of us in this.

Speaker A: Well, uh, this is all really what we've been walking through. Super helpful conversation. And uh, again, if you haven't heard the whole story, I would encourage you to go back. It's also on the Echo website, it's on the Saddleback website, uh, where we talk about this transition. Now today we're going to continue that conversation and the first thing we want to talk about is this idea of trust and uh, the fourth, or today we'll call it. We'll go 1, 2, 3. Today. It's actually in the lineup. 4, 5, and 6 of these two episodes. But we're going to go 1, 2, 3. Today. Um, the first big idea today in ambiguity or in the zone of the unknown is the opportunity to revive your trust. And, uh, this is important because sometimes when we're in the zone of the unknown, we can get suspicious, get suspicious of others, get suspicious even of God. And it's a great opportunity to come back to, uh, the people that we trust. Uh, if you're a follower of Jesus, the God that you trust, and to revive that sense of trust, what is

Speaker B: it that you think about? This zone of the unknown causes suspicion. I mean, is it. We start to walk into it when we don't have anything to hold on to that is concrete or that we know is true. We, uh, start to question everything or other people's motives. Like, what is it about this?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think sometimes when you don't know the what or the how, it can make you really confused about the who and the why. And, you know, we, our brain searches for the how. We search and search and search for the how. And you can see this even with the disciples, the how, the when. When they asked Jesus, you know, are you at this time going to restore Israel? Are you going to bring it back together? This is right before Jesus goes back to heaven and ascends. And Jesus says, you know, it's not. It's not for you to know the times or the dates, uh, but you'll receive power when my spirit comes upon you, and you'll be my witnesses. In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth, they were focused on the plan, the how. So the confusion about the how makes you confused about the who. Um, and the truth is that God's how is often different than how I would do it. And so when you don't see the how or the how is different than what you expected, it can make you think, well, this is not the way I thought it would unfold. And it can make you doubt the goodness of God in the midst of it, because you're like, well, it's not going to happen the way that I thought it was going to happen. But really, God's plans are higher than our plans. God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. And there have been so many times in my life in the past where God got me through in a way that I didn't expect him to. And there's Something God is doing in the relationship, in the ambiguity and the uncertainty in helping us understand his character. M But that confusion about the how makes us suspicious about the whole.

Speaker B: So as a leader, when we talk about trust in this zone, you have two things. So one is you trusting your team, people you're leading. So when you're walking through it, you may be suspicious of them, but if the organization or the team is walking through it, they may be suspicious of you. So how do you as a leader then begin to discern and lead forward for you to trust the team? But also how do you help lead the team to trust you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would say you look at, when you're looking at a person's life, look at the patterns of the person's life. And just to say, okay, if this is a trustworthy person, I need to remind myself that they're trustworthy. And so they've been trustworthy in the past, they're going to be trustworthy in the future. You know, sometimes when you walk through trials with people, you see their character more and you just got to remember who this person is. I would say that the pattern is really important also when there's a gap, to fill that in with trust initially until you can talk to that person. So believe the best, then go to the person and try to discern and talk through. Um, if you are seeing patterns of suspicion, then have a conversation about it. Uh, or patterns that make you suspicious, have a conversation about it. But start with trust. Fill the gap with trust. And this is an old Andy Stanley talk about trust and suspicion. Mhm. But the ambiguity and the uncertainty makes you ask a whole lot of questions. And it's important in the midst of that to fill the gap with trust. Yeah.

Speaker B: Which I think, um, in some ways applies to getting your team to trust you when they actually see you filling the gap with trust. Like you're trusting them even in the unknown. You're trusting them when they need a day off or whatever it may be. Um, that's also going to help them trust you. So anything else even from a leader that you would say for you to get your team to lead your team and trusting you, what else would you recommend to do?

Speaker A: I would say don't communicate things that you as though you know them if you do not know them. Like be willing to acknowledge that you don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I would say that sometimes leaders in the midst of ambiguity, they're fishing for certainty. And clarity and certainty are not the same thing. So you there, there's the opportunity to be clear even when you're uncertain. But one of the ways that you can be clear is by acknowledging that you're uncertain. So I may not have certainty, but I can have clarity. You don't understand what I'm saying.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to have to unpack those a little bit for everybody.

Speaker A: I may not even remember what I just said.

Speaker B: Well, it's certainty and clarity saying that those are not the same thing. So break that down. Because some leaders are trying to discern right now with this. I may not feel certain, but I can have clarity. Yeah, those. They seem in opposition, but break down what you mean by that.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, you can determine what you're focused on. You can determine what your priorities are. You can determine what you give energy to, and you can be clear about that in communication with people. And, uh, often we rally people with vision. You know, leaders cast vision, they call people division. But then when you look to the future and it's like, well, the vision's not clear. Mhm. And then you're like, well, how do I rally people? And sometimes you, you rally people with what you see and what you know and you lose credibility if you try to, you try to speak to what you don't know when. When it's unclear.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I, uh. Or uncertain, I should say when you're. So it's like acknowledge the lack of, acknowledge, uh, the uncertainty, but then press into the clarity of what? Okay, what. Where can we gain clarity right now? I. Let's go back to Covid. Covid's a good example. We didn't know how long Covid would go. We didn't know, you know, what, what's going to happen next. We don't know what the government. So many things that are uncertain. And I think, just saying, I've never led through a crisis before. I don't know what to do next. Um, but one of the things that I do know is that I'm going to keep leaning on God. One of the things I do know is that I'm going to stay humble and acknowledge when I make mistakes. And, and that that willingness to say I don't know, I don't know gives you clarity. Now the thing that I can do is to say, okay, well, at the same time, here are the three things we're going to focus on. We're going to. And we launched something called Echo Compassion to serve our community. Yeah. Uh, we're going to do a good job with church online. We're going to connect people digitally, you know. Okay, well, These three things we can do right now. M. Even when we don't have clarity about the future.

Speaker B: So you can.

Speaker A: Or certainty about the future, you can

Speaker B: work to bring clarity as to next steps.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think in the zone of the unknown, sometimes you feel like you're not clear on what those steps are. So would you say, even if you're there, say, hey, we've never been here before? Um, I think this is the right step, so we're gonna roll with it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Do you. Do you say it that kind of way? Like I. Or you go, no, this is our step right here.

Speaker A: We're gone. I would. I think it's fine to acknowledge that you may not. You could be wrong.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I could be wrong. I said that a thousand times in Covid about, should we start meeting again? I could be wrong, but I have to make a decision. And once we make the decision, this is what we're going to do together.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because if we're. If we're not doing the same thing, we're divided, and our energies are pulled in opposite directions. So I think that that's one way that you acknowledge it, but then make a decision and lead, and it's okay. You know, it's okay that you may be wrong, but I've got to make a decision. And then when you're wrong, acknowledge you're wrong. M. So, like, if you. If you make a mistake, just say, hey, I made a mistake. You know, there were. I made mistakes during COVID I, um, would be willing to acknowledge that, you know, specific things that I could have done differently. And if we go through another global crisis, I'll do them differently. You know, so I think that. That, like. And every leader. Every leader would be able to say the exact same thing. But the acknowledgement of that gains trust and credibility because, you know. Okay, well, I'm, um. I'm working with a leader who can acknowledge when they're wrong. So I can trust that if we're heading a direction that is not the right direction, they're going to acknowledge it before we. We go off of a cliff.

Speaker B: So let me ask you one other question here on revive your trust. Um, in this. So I'm thinking about the. The leader who is a. Is a team member. Right. So maybe they. In this case, they sit on the exec team, the C suite, something like that. And they're, you know, they are. They. They're a second cheerleader. Um, what would you say to encourage them on how to lead up to their leader in this area? So they're. They're trying to revive trust, but how can they lead up if they feel like it's not. It's not recirculating or coming down?

Speaker A: Uh, in terms of gaining trust with your leader, there's some things that are really important. Um, I would say that your support in public and challenge in private is super helpful. I think you gain a lot of credibility when you come to somebody and say, hey, I have some challenges with this. M. Not every leader can receive that or will receive that. But I remember there were times in Covid where, like, I remember one of our staff members, Tim Castagna, came to me and just said, hey, I've got some. I got some challenges with how we're handling this situation. And I remember listening to him and that conversation, for me personally, I trusted him because I knew. I knew that Tim would bring something to me if he had a concern rather than going sideways with it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you knew when he was out there making it happen, he had your back.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: He was not going to be like, oh, Andy doesn't know what he's doing.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say it's good to challenge upward. But when you do it interpersonally, one on one, I think you gain the trust of your leader, and then so you disagree in private, you honor and follow in public. And once a decision's been made, you follow the leadership. I would say also following through on your commitments is another way to build trust with your leadership. So you say you're going to do something, do it. You know, follow through and exceed expectations under promise over deliver. That's another really good way with leadership. And that's. I think it's true both directions. Right. With those you lead, those you follow, you revive trust.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So we want to revive trust, um, during the zone of the unknown with our team, with our people. Um, and then what's the next one?

Speaker A: Next one is to refocus your energy. And this is a question of what do you need to do in the next day, the next week, and the next month? And this is where we come back to that axiom. When you don't have certainty, you can still have clarity.

Speaker B: M. So when you think about this, are you thinking primarily, this is an opportunity? Because again, depending on your season, depending on your level of unknown or ambiguity, to go back to the whole drawing board on what you give attention to or, like, how.

Speaker A: Yeah, how do you. How I've done this in this zone of the unknown is I just. I create a, um, focus, you know, for the month. I create a focus for the week and I create a focus for the day.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And so those three for me and just having like genuine or like, yeah, I should say genuine clarity. Like, okay, well today I'm going to do these 10 things or eight things or five things. And really I like three top things that I can do today. And then the three, three, three kind of model really is helpful. Three today, three for the week, three for the month. And then you scale and you can, you know, go from big to small. Um, and that really does help bring clarity to what you're focused on now. Sometimes you can't get clarity a month out.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I would just go, do you feel like, um. And maybe this is a wiring thing. But for you, even in the midst where you can't, you don't know the destination, you don't know how it's going to turn out. But having that list, like the 333 or something like that, does it help you feel like, okay, I am making progress, even though I feel like I'm not. I'm making progress because I'm, I'm literally checking things off the list.

Speaker A: Yeah. Is that like sometimes I'll write down like, brush my teeth and.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, take uh, the trash out, do whatever, you know, it's like. But, but I think there is psychologically, even for you, when you're refocusing your energy, when you're doing something like that, it is, it's giving you those small wins.

Speaker A: Closing the loop.

Speaker B: Closing the loop. It's giving you the small wins. It's saying, you know what, we are moving. Yeah, we're moving forward. Um, we're not done yet.

Speaker A: I just think that part of the deal is on that is this is like a strategic thing. The things that you're doing have to be contributing to the vision. Yeah, right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it's like, I mean, I kind of jokingly talk about brushing your teeth.

Speaker B: Well, that, that is contributing towards the vision of you having your wife want to sit beside you.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know?

Speaker A: Yeah, I guess that. Give you a kiss, like, whatever, have a good marriage, brush your teeth. But I would just say it's good to ask the question. So like, another really practical way to go about this would be to write down all the things that you're like, okay, I got to get this done. And I like to, you know, tend to think in terms of like the 4Ds we've done a session on this. It was actually one of our most downloaded sessions, by the way. And it's the do, delegate, develop, decide and distinguishing. But one, um, one thing I like to think about is, okay, what's the, what's the consequence of not getting this done? So like there may be some things on that list that there's like very little consequence to not doing them. Uh, and I think that those things can be pushed to the bottom. And so I want to pick those three things that really are most important to a vision or most important to priorities and lean into them.

Speaker B: So let's get really practical here for a minute because I think that this can help some leaders. So when you're in the zone of the unknown, um, one, um, what is helping you stay motivated to keep bringing it to that level of detail? So you're bringing it down. Like in a, sometimes an unknown we kind of can freeze up, we can get tired, we can get exhausted. But how do you keep yourself motivated to say I'm gonna keep writing this list down every month, every week and every day?

Speaker A: Mhm. I don't know if I would, if I would make it about motivation.

Speaker B: Okay,

Speaker A: um, I think I would make it more about habit than motivation. I know you love habit stuff. Um, yeah. So you know, and maybe you have to have motivation to work on a habit. So maybe I'm disagreeing with myself now, but I would say that first of all, thinking through the consequence, both directions is helpful for me. But what are the core habits that I need to have in place to do that?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So for example, um, and maybe accountability is another thing to kind of keep you motivated. Like I have an accountability list and one of the things I've shared before, I've done the scorecard, I'm still doing a scorecard. I send it in by Friday at 5pm to my coach. And on that scorecard for me right now, one of those things is writing down at the end of the day everything I need to do for the next day. But the, the habitual side of it. So I want to get it in the habits. So that way it doesn't take quite as much work. So you know, like right now I use the little mini, um, planner. Full focus, full focus planner. I love it. I mean the big one was like, golly, I needed a bigger bag to carry that thing. But like the small one is just, you know, you can. I do my weekly list that I talk about, talked about in that one episode. I fold it up into fours, I put it in there. Um, I do my stuff for a day and then for the next day I'm Looking at that list, I'm sweeping things supersede. It takes me like 10 minutes to do it. And it's habitual now, so it's. I'm not accessing a part of my brain that I haven't used before. And it just, you know, becomes like clockwork.

Speaker B: So let's, let's jump in because I think there's the habit. You have both your. You're working to form a habit. So, so it just runs. You also provided accountability. So there is structure. Like you, you're now in a sense, you're putting yourself into a position with your coach where in a sense, you're submitting to your coach.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, under. Underneath their authority, if you will, as a coach. But it's helping you kind of keep pushing and keep accountable. But then practically, let's um, talk right now. Like you, you have the full focus planner. You have your, your list, your four areas for the week. Um, um, when are you. How much, I guess how much time are you allotting? Like what is the timeframes that you're really doing this?

Speaker A: I do, I usually do the full focus planner either at the end of a workday for 15 minutes or at the end when my kids go to bed. And those are like my two time slots. Um, when I'm. And I've been more like recently I've been trying to do it by the end of the workday, some sweeping stuff. I find that the closure before the end of the workday allows my brain to rest a little bit more.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: After work.

Speaker B: So that's about 15 minutes a day it takes you to do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, maybe if that. Maybe 10. I mean it's like super fast. And then the weekly thing takes me maybe 20 to 30 minutes to do my little four part deal.

Speaker B: When do you do that?

Speaker A: Uh, so my habit has been Sunday night. But I have found that it's actually, it's better for my brain to do it on Friday.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So I'll do the next week on Friday. This is making me sound real OCD and like. No, this.

Speaker B: I think this is what's helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I'll uh, like the end of the work week for me, Sunday is still. As a pastor is like still on. But I'm not, it's not as task oriented. It's more like I'm stepping into the zone to, you know, preach and do, you know, do that part of my job. But my, like what's the, you know, tasks and conversations and uh, all that. If I sweep by the end of Friday, there will be some other things that come to mind by Sunday night, and I'll just add them to the list. But my habit has been like, end of Friday, workday, spend 20 minutes on that.

Speaker B: So really it's the end of every day. You're. You're sweeping through what did I get done, what I need to do tomorrow, and the end of every week. It's helpful. You're setting up how did I do this week? And looking at next week. And then you can add things in there. Yeah, that's super helpful because I think all of that adds a little bit more, um, parameters and handles for somebody to focus their energy in the unknown.

Speaker A: I'll give you another, um, really practical tool that's been helpful. The big sticky sheets. And we've talked about this. Sometimes you.

Speaker B: These are for clarity. These are the huge post it sheets that you can work through a lot with your team in a meeting.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: They hang on the wall.

Speaker A: We love them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'll draw four windows there and I'll do like, uh, sometimes you could do, you could choose, but you could go a year, three months, a month, you know, a week, where you could go two years a year, 90 days a month. But I like to do that. So when I'll go away, you know, a couple times a year and I'll do that, I'll drop as much. But that's another way to kind of elevate and get some higher perspective. And you can put in there, what are the things that you need to work on, the things that are on your mind. Some things are back burner visions, but you put those in that list and then you work your way backwards.

Speaker B: This right here could be a whole

Speaker A: nother podcast called Windows.

Speaker B: How to start to do this. Yeah. M. So I hope that if you are listening right now, I mean, even if you need to pause, take down some notes on this, there are several key things right here that you're hearing on how to get focused. So even in the midst of ambiguity, you can still focus how you put your energy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that is the main thing to hear right here. Some practical handles how to do that.

Speaker A: It's good.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker A: You ready to go? The last one.

Speaker B: Let's do it, man.

Speaker A: This is the, maybe the most important one, and it's around your identity. So the last is reclaim your identity. And uncertainty, ambiguity. Um, times in life where maybe you were successful at something and it's not working quite as much can rock your identity. M. And so it's a really good idea. It's a really good strategy, a really good idea to come back to who am I? Who does God say I, um, am? What does God say is true about me? What are the things that I can anchor myself in and detach my identity from my performance, detach my identity from my progress? It really does allow us in the midst of ambiguity, to have more confidence to reclaim our identity.

Speaker B: Mhm. What would you say to a leader who I think a lot of times our leadership, our jobs, our identity, like you're saying, get tied to it. Um, so for somebody who, like how do you, how would you encourage somebody who maybe they. We don't yet have the self awareness m of my identity is tied to this.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: What are the signs that help, you know, when your identity is tied to your work?

Speaker A: I think with a curiosity question coming back to the curiosity is, you know, how sometimes you feel something but you're not really, you're not aware of why you feel what you feel?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that for a lot of leaders, especially, you know, we've got people that are listening, that are men and women. Men and women should lead.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: To clarify, men have a harder time for the most part, identifying their emotions. I mean, I see this with my sons and my daughter. It tends to be, and this is not true across the board, trying to be politically correct here or just correct. Um, but they're, generally speaking, men tend to kind of ignore or stuff their emotions. I've found that my emotions are like they're warning signs that something, there's something under the surface that's happening and those emotions may, you know, what I feel may or may not be accurate, but what I feel is certainly an indication of something that is deeper on the inside. So I uh, want to pay attention to those insecurities and the feelings of insecurity, the feeling of I'm not enough and some of it's thoughts. But a lot of times you feel it first and kind of trying to follow that feeling, like not following the feeling to let it like lead my life but curiously say, okay, well why do I feel that way and what's that connected to and what was before that and what happened there? And I'm trying to get to the, you know, the root level of what is the. What's the underlying root of what I'm feeling right now so that I can make space for God to be able to heal that part of me that's really good.

Speaker B: So do you, when you get into that, um, is there. And this probably Varies widely. But is there, um, when you start to identify that feeling, is there a typical time frame or process for you? And I like really nailing that down or I guess it depends for you on how deep that goes. But I know you've, you've talked before about seeing a counselor or getting help with it, journaling a lot, like writing down your thoughts. But like, how has that process kind of played out?

Speaker A: M. Um, well, maybe some practical questions are how do I feel right now? Or what am I feeling right now? And try to come up with descriptors of like, this is what I'm feeling. I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling confused, I'm feeling lost, I'm feeling, um, uncertain. Explore. I'm feeling this way. And then asking the question, okay, why am I feeling this way? And allowing yourself to kind of go one and then maybe why did, why did, do I feel that way about what I feel? You know, it's like trying to get to as many layers down as possible. And then I do think that doing this with somebody who's a therapist can really help. Uh, doing this with somebody who's more mature or wise can help. Yeah.

Speaker B: So if you're gonna, when you get here, it's kind of like you have to dig into yourself to find out what am I feeling, why am I feeling it? And then now you, when you start to reclaim your identity, you're building out of that. M. So what, Once you start to identify that feeling, you drill down, maybe you see a counselor, you do that. What does that turn look like for you? That starts to now I can reclaim and build out.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. And I think some of this is supernatural, but it's like, okay, what's the lie at the root of all of this that I'm believing, you know, what is the. And maybe what's the wound at the root of all this that needs to be healed? M. And underneath all of that, you know, deep, deep, deep down. And this is why, you know, our health as leaders is so important. And inserting into that equation things that are true. You know, like, I am not my performance. I am, you know, I am loved by God. I'm, you know, I am secure in his love. You know, things that really do anchor I'm a child of God, all that kind of anchors me. And regardless of what I do or how I perform, I'm, um, approved. I'm chosen. You know, all that allows me to build from there.

Speaker B: And I think that this process of reclaiming your identity, you know, you talked early uh, in the first part of this, um, episode on the zone of the unknown. So about the loop.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And so when we want to, we want to close the loop that we're in, that unknown, we want to close it and get closure and move on. But sometimes it's in that loop that we are going to have our greatest self discoveries right here in our identity to be able to shift and change those things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So for, for our leader right now, who the loop is wide open as we um, are. This is our last, you know, kind of handle right here for them. What would you say to just encourage them?

Speaker A: M. Well, I would encourage leaders that in this place of exploration of what's on the inside, like the vast unknown, I guess if we're talking the zone of the unknown.

Speaker B: The vast unknown.

Speaker A: Yeah. Is to recognize that in vulnerability and humility and the willingness to be uncomfortable for our own growth is some of the most fruitful ambiguity that you can embrace. Because as you become a more whole person, as you're, as you're healed as a leader, it's only going to make you more effective at what you do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And if there are things on the inside that you're. You're stuffing down that you're not dealing with, uh, those things eventually are going to rear their heads. There's no way that it's not going to affect you later. So I would just say deal with it. One of my mentors said people in their 40s and 50s pay for what they didn't deal with in their 20s and 30s. So allowing some of what you go through in seasons of the Unknown to be seasons of character formation and leaning into that, knowing that the more I lean into that, the more whole I'll become, the more I'll become the kind of person and leader that God wants me to be.

Speaker B: No. That's really good. Well, I hope that this has been encouraging for all of our listeners to help them in the zone of the unknown.

Speaker A: So today if it didn't help anybody else, it helped us.

Speaker B: So we, we talked about today just as a recap that we want to revive our trust. Um, so not have choose trust. Instead of suspicion, we want to refocus our energy. So really get focused in on what can I do today or next week, next month. And then we want to reclaim our identity. So pay attention to what are we feeling and how do we begin to move into focus on our, our true identity.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so we want to be able to do that. Any, any final words you want to say before we Sign off today. Yeah.

Speaker A: Some things I want to say. So, um, as we're recording this, it's like the beginning of the summer 2022, and this actually marks two years since we launched the Echo Leadership Podcast. So it's kind of an end of a season, right? It's the beginning of a new season, but it's the end of a old season. And, um, on the other side of the camera, actually, there's no camera anymore, but on the other side of the microphone is Will and Sharon. And we're gonna try not to cry, but we love you guys. You have been such a huge part of this community and so grateful for all the ways that you guys have served. And, um, you guys have done an amazing job. And so you. You guys that are listening to this, can't see them, but I just want to take a minute to say we love you so and thank you very much.

Speaker B: And if you wonder why the podcast actually works, it's because of them.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: So thanks, y'. All. Appreciate you. Well, y', all, this has been a great episode of the Echo Leadership Podcast, and we, uh, hope it's been encouraging to you. So be sure to, like, subscribe, comment, share, and, um, this month in August 2022, head over to Echo Church LeaderShipPodcast. Drop in your email. Keep informed, because we are going to be rebranding this podcast soon, and we, uh, want to make sure you keep informed and can continue to get better in your leadership with us. So we look forward to seeing you on a future. It.