365 - From Clicks to Bricks: How Digitally Native Brands Go Massive in Retail

Speaker A: Foreign. This is D2C pod, where the worlds of creators, consumer goods and brands collide. We get behind the wheel to show you how today's biggest products and ideas are made, launched and scaled. If it's shaping the future of commerce and culture, you'll Hear it here first. Catch new episodes weekly on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or D2C pod dot com. Be sure to check out our newsletter for weekly breakdowns and recaps linked in the show notes. So before we, before we kick off today's recording, I've got one more for you. E Commerce costs are rising. USPS changes alone could push delivery costs, uh, up more than 25% this year. And to stay competitive, you need a supply chain partner built for scale. And that's what Stored is. A modern 3 PL that unites warehousing, fulfillment and transportation with cloud software for full visibility and control. In 2024 alone, Stord saved customers $130 million in parcel fees and powered nearly 1% of all U.S. black Friday and Cyber Monday sales. Now they're offering a free mystery shopping report. See how your ops and logistics stacks up against competitors with real actionable insights. Get yours at Stored. Link mystery and scale smarter with Stored. What is going on DTC Pod? Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Martin Ford, who is the co founder and partner at Highline Brands. Um, prior to that he was the director of retail sales at, uh, Dr. Squatch. And he's got plenty of experience not only in the D2C space, but building that bridge into retail. So I'm really excited for today's episode because, you know, as brands grow, D, uh2C becomes a channel, especially a breakout channel, something that a lot of brands grow up on. But when it comes to moving real volume, real scale, um, a lot try to make that break into retail. So that's what we're going to be going all the way in on today. Um, recently there's been a lot of book brands that have been on our pod that have, um, you know, recently started crushing it in retail. Um, a couple examples that come to mind. Um, we just. Our last episode was with the absorption company. Um, recently we also had David Good girl Snacks. Like some of these that are like, typically, you know, they find themselves in the CPG space and then they reach some scale, they kind of blow up online, get all the buzz. And then a lot of these brands are really starting to make, um, massive waves, uh, into retail. Actually today I even saw, um, array niche, uh, who we had on here a little while ago They've been blowing up and they just launched nationwide at Target after launching in sprouts um, just a little while ago. So um, really exciting to see this pattern sort of continue. And today we're going to be unpacking all of that. So um, Martin, I'll let you kick us off. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, how you found yourself uh, in this space. Maybe we talk a little about your sort of whole journey and then we can you know, dive into it.

Speaker B: Thanks Blaine. Really grateful to be here. Excited to talk shop and uh, yeah, dive deep into all things retail. My uh, my baby, my bread and butter. So um, yeah to the audience, um, uh, my name is Martin Ford. Um, I have spent the entirety of my career in cpg specifically helping early stage and emerging brands launch and scale in retail. And so you know how I started in this space like a lot of folks is um, you know, just worked at big cpg, big Co and, and kind of got that foundational brand building experience and you know, learned how product moves from a uh, from point of manufacturing to a warehouse to a retailer and then off shelf into consumers. And so you know, just learn the fundamentals. Um, again I've been in sales. My, the, that's been my function throughout my entire career. Um, but you know like a lot of folk just kind of didn't see the uh, growth trajectory in this, this big corporate environment and was just wanting to do something a little bit more entrepreneurial, a little bit more nimble. And so that led me to um, yeah, the startup circuit. And so you know I worked with a lot of different emerging brands. Some that I'll mention, um, Halo Top was my first, uh, my second was a brand called genexa. And my third as you alluded to Blaine is I was the first sales hire at the brand Dr. Squatch. And so talk a little bit about Squatch. Um, Squatch was really um, where I, I clarified what it is my, maybe my purpose and passion within CPG really specifically is. And so what it is I love to do and excel at doing is helping brands to find the strategies and then execute those strategies of how to launch and SC large scale into major national retailers. And so you know, at Scotch spent a couple years doing strategy development with our leadership team, um, figuring out the case for retail. Why retail? Who's the consumer we're activating at retail? What's the assortment, what's the retailer? All these key strategic foundational questions that you really need to have answered before going in. I helped Scotch. Define those. And then that culminated in national rollout at Walmart. Um, that Launch did over 50 million. The first year in the account was one of the most successful personal care launches of all time. And really set the set. The foundation was really the bedrock of Dr. Squatch's rapid retail scale up. Um, and that eventually led to a $1.5 billion acquisition by Unilever. And so just a true unicorn, a true case study of how to take a digitally native brand and launch them into retail. And I'm really grateful for that experience, that perspective, those lessons. The team I got to build, the um, the, the people I got to work with, relationships I had, um, and that led me to what I'm doing today. And so you know, to your point, Blaine is I'm a co founder and partner at Highline Brands. Um, what we are is we're a retail broker that's purpose built for a modern, modern uh, brand. So and so really helping brands that are that next generation that say next Dr. Squatch really doing two things, both defining the strategy, um, as well as executing that strategy. And so we kind of have two main service arms of doing both. Uh, yeah, the strategy development as well as the um, the actual, you know, retail representation helping get you into Walmart, Target, Kroger, Safeway, Albertsons, whole food Spouts, really kind of whatever that mix actually looks like. And so um, yeah, that's, that's myself A real pleasure to, to be here once again, Blaine and yeah, excited to dive a little bit deeper on what uh, what digitally native brands can do if they start heading into retail.

Speaker A: Yeah, so find um, that really exciting, especially the timing that you were at Squatch, uh, with. So maybe we can start with like that story and then uh, we can build from there. So um, you know you started with swatch in like 2019. Where, what stage were they at? Were they. Because I remember the brand was like blowing up like really great, uh, on E. Commerce. Commerce scaling up now anytime, you know, you walk into like CVS or um, you know, any sort of market, like you see their product on shelf in the personal care space. But I do remember the world when Dr. Swatch was a, you know, super digitally native brand and you didn't see it in retail. So when did that happen? Um, why don't you just take us back to like you working with the team, what that looked like and then we can kind of go from there.

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. So when I first started at Squatch in 2019, the brand was 100% digitally native. Um, doing about $20 million in top line, um, there. And what I was originally brought on board to do was to figure out the independent and gift channel. Essentially what the brand had a problem of. Uh, there's all these random uh, retailers, mom and pop, the barbershops, gift stops, um, hardware stores, reaching out, trying to just figure out like hey, I saw the brand on Facebook, I want to have it in my Ace hardware. And so that was the original kind of why behind retail. And it was really interesting for m me is like that actually kind of was a precursor to some of the bigger demands that I believe existed at retail. Because I had never worked for a brand where there was that many. That volume of independence actually reaching out for the brand to be on their shelves. And so really um, that, that served as the foundation for the, the why retail? Why now? Um, and so you know, built the team, hired a sales agency, uh, built the, built the go the market really just started scaling up, operationalizing. And how do you attack the independent channel? But what that experience taught me is that there is a larger opportunity, a larger um, case for retail. And that's what we can dive a little bit deeper on. Blaine is like, you know what, what uh, what drove that decision? Because you know, as, as to your point, Dr. Squatch today is much sold well beyond an Ace hardware or a barbershop. You see them in CVS and Walmart and Target and Costco, in um, every single major class of trade, food, drug, Mass Club, Dr. Squash has distribution in as um, you know, a future billion dollar brand which Squatch will absolutely is, is on the trajectory to become. Um, the only way to do that is via retail. And so yeah, about what that looks. Yeah.

Speaker A: And why don't we start there? I think independent is a really interesting place to start because like you're saying you come on to Squatch, you've got a ton of independent interests. Again, maybe some mom and pop shops, some like smaller scale retail. We're not talking like necessarily national like Walmart, roll out every Walmart in the world. But like there's pent up demand. Right. So what, why don't we first start with like the independent retail landscape. What does it look like? Independent boutiques, mom and pops, like how do you build emotion to satisfy that? And, and what does it look like? Right, because like also as a brand you've got limited time, you've got limited product. You're trying to set up um, you know, a supply chain that can scale. So how did you guys approach that? Did you you know, build out a strategy to service independence before going to retail. Or did you start with retail? What did that sort of look like? And how does independent retail fit within this larger ecosystem of retail?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question. And so independent retail is a really fascinating channel. It's not one I really you know, specialize in today and in the context of Highline. But I think for a brand with a young brand, one that has um, let's say sub $5 million in top line and has interest in going into retail. I believe the only way to really launch retail at that scale is by going to the independent channel. And the independent channel is really broad. And so like you know this is uh, the, the convent where I always point people towards is actually uh. I was one of the first people to start using this at Squatch was this platform called Fair. And so Fair is really interesting as Fair is just a marketplace where you know, you put yourself list your products and uh, independent retailers can go out and buy them and um, they take a commission. It's really this uh, this new

Speaker A: um,

Speaker B: model of this sales um, sales agency approach that it was traditionally how a lot of the retail um, uh brands would go to market in the independent and gift channel. And so that channel is highly fragmented, very um, you know, uh, individual owner driven. Um, to your point Blaine, it takes a lot of elbow grease for brands to really allocate the bandwidth and the support to really nurture and convert those brands into actual, you know, long term uh, partnerships. And so at Squatch, let's use Squatch as an example. The, the only reason we were able to reach substantial scale there in this channel was because we were getting so much inbound demand, uh, just by the nature of the virality and kind of the marketing and all the things that make Dr. Squatch, Dr. Squatch. But um, it was almost a necessity to figure out how to service those consumers because it was just leaving chips on the table. Table essentially. And so um, you know from when we launched that business in the first year, did about two and a half million dollars. Um so you know, great, great business when you really can aggregate all of that very again complex. A lot of work had to hire someone who just ran independent gift. So it does take a lot of um, uh, investment in time and resources to be able to scale this channel. But, but you know, is the scrappy. You know, depending on who's listening to this, you're a. Yeah, that 5 sub $5 million brand you are looking at trying to figure out how to do retail independent is some one. I would Take a ah, really hard look at and just figuring out, you know, what types of independent stores would make sense for my product in this environment. And that's really what we were able to do at Squatch is like, oh, this is a highly giftable product. This is a really like, you know, people uh, men buy this product and they buy that. Like where do men shop? Hardware stores.

Speaker A: Ace hardware.

Speaker B: True value. You know. And so that was really the, the uh, the, the core thesis of again why retail, um, and this is, this is applicable to any brand is when you start defining what retailer to go into, you need to understand who your consumer is and where they shop. And so that was a really core strategic plank for us at Dr. Squatch was doing the research, doing the consumer insights studies to understand where consumers were actually buying this product. And, and one of those places of course was, was in uh, you know, places like hardware stores. But that research asking those questions is obviously what led us to the larger scale application of retail in uh, you know, food, drug club and mass retail.

Speaker A: So yeah, and why don't we talk a little bit about now the supply chain stuff on the back end to be able to do it right. So imagine we're a brand, we're digitally native. We're interested, excuse me, we're interested in exploring retail uh, and specifically starting with you know, some independent stuff as we go zero to five. Uh, what like how do you structure. What moqs are you looking at? At what point are you like yeah, that's good. And how do you set up your supply chain and your warehousing to be able to uh, you know, deliver, deliver the goods? Right. Because at a certain point you move from shipping individual units of your product, which you're doing in D2C to shipping out cases or pallets, uh, or containers or things like that. So um, what does that landscape look like uh, as you're going into your first independence?

Speaker B: Yeah, so the retail supply chain is absolutely critical for any brand to build out. But for independence. The thing that's great about it is it doesn't have to be that complex. I think one of the biggest considerations is really the three PL is does your three pl have the ability to fulfill an order that is not eaches but is like you know, uh, case packs essentially? And so I think this is where, this is what I would do if I was an emerging brand, um, trying to figure out, you know, how to switch from retail, uh, from DSC into retail is you can use that independent channel as a way to start investing in the you say the case pack architecture, figuring out your price point, figuring out your. Again you mentioned moqs, which is an important one but really just understanding what like you know, what's an inner carton going to look like? What's a master carton going to look like if you don't know what those things are? Again, that's, that's uh, those are, that's right. People like myself exist is to help guide brands on, on um, defining what those things are. But there's so many.

Speaker A: What are, what are those things?

Speaker B: Oh yeah, great. So an inner carton is like uh, so let's start with a master. A master is like ah, a box where all the product goes into. Within the master you have an inner carton. Say you have four inners in a master and then within the inner you have six eaches. I'm making numbers up and those eaches are the individual products that then go sit on the, on the product uh, on the shelves. And so the reason you know, master, inner, uh, each kind of case pack architecture is significant is if you're able to figure that out on the independent level you can scale that up all the way to Walmart. And that's what we did at Squash is like you know, the inners that we kind of pioneered at, at uh, figured out like uh, let's do six. Six sounds like a good inner case. Let's do that. That's the same inner case that's I believe still shipping to Walmart today. And so um, again if you understand where you are going, what's that end vision? You know, where do I see this long term living in retail, Start using these smaller channels as a way to test, iterate, learn and scale to that point. And so always starting with the end destination is what I advise a lot of brands to do is um, yeah, build, build. Not for what you're trying to accomplish in a year or two years is build, you know, that three to five year plan of you launching nationwide and Target or, or Costco.

Speaker A: Yeah, and the other thing that I would kind of want to double click on now that we've talked a little bit about like the supply chain side of things and you know, prepping yourself for, for independent before you can get onto retail. Let's talk a little bit about um, you know, some of these emerging marketplaces online that you're talking about something like a Thrive or a fair, um, you know one that we've even had on the pod, um, that we've uh, had experience selling with. That's like really cool is like a bubble goods where you can like plug into them and you know, it's almost like you go through the application process and like their orders are just hitting your Shopify and you, you're fulfilling them. So, but you know, when you look at a fair or if you look at a um, thrive, there's more, uh, there's more, you know, checks that go with it and there's more details, uh, that you need to provide and regulations that you need to pass. So what does that landscape look like if you're a brand and you're thinking like, okay, maybe before we even start looking at independence, let's look at um, these online sort of like marketplaces. What does it look like to uh, start there and how do you think about that? I know you had mentioned fair, but how do you think about that, like online side of things?

Speaker B: Yeah, let's, let's talk about the marketplaces. I think it's a really interesting channel again, particularly in the context of an emerging brand that's like first figuring out how to launch in retail. So your example, Blaine, you know, a thrive market, a bubble, um, a uh, even like iherb is, is an interesting one that gives you international exposure. Those marketplaces, uh, are really powerful for a couple reasons. Is one, um, one is it gives you the discipline, ah, to be able to speak to a buyer, set up all these details that you mentioned as, as being important. It kind of forces you to go through that exercise of like, you know, what are my item dimensions? Do I have a compliant UPC? Do I have yeah, inner MasterCard? And do I have all of these operational details that any retailer is going to require? They force you to be able to comply to those standards because they're a retailer like any other retailer. So really, really powerful, um, in that regard. And obviously like, I think what's, what's really um, useful for the marketplaces is it's putting your brands like any retailer, putting it in front of a net new consumer that you might not otherwise find. And so that's really the power that retail offers is it's much more than a revenue channel. Is it can effectively serve uh, as a billboard depending on what retailer and how your execution actually looks like. Is that can be a billboard, a customer acquisition channel akin to a, you know, a Meta or Google, uh, or a TikTok shop. Even retail, um, can be viewed in that same lens. Is, is this is a way for me to profitably acquire, acquire a consumer that I would not otherwise have. And so that's how I talk to a lot of, you know, digitally native brands that are considering retail is reframe how you look at retail. It's not the channel. It's going to have all this cost and complexity and it's just a pain to deal with. No, this gives you access to consumers that you wouldn't be able to reach otherwise. And so that's particularly, um, relevant if you're a at scale digitally native brand. And what I define as at scale is probably like about 20 million or above. Once you get to that threshold, um, people generally kind of have seen you online. You're obviously at the point of where you've established product market fit. Um, and that's where those retail conversations can be particularly potent because you're able to leverage this audience that you have online into how do I drive that traffic, that consumer to a physical, um, storefront. So yeah, I, I, I'm very bullish on, um, just retail at large. But the marketplaces specifically are, are definitely great, uh, places to start.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think what's so interesting about that is like as any digital native brand, every brand you've got a different product, you've got different unit economics, you've got different ways you're thinking about scaling your ads, different weights, all of this sort of stuff. So again, this isn't for everyone and everyone's got to make up their own sort of decision. But you know, the one thing when you say D2C, that's a channel where you're in charge of driving all of your own traffic and you're kind of playing in a lot of ways on hard mode because you're driving the affiliate strategy. If you're trying to get other people to share or if you're running paid, you're paying for that traffic or anything you do, you're driving your own traffic and you're investing in that and that's a single channel. But to your point, as soon as you get on some of these marketplaces, they can just like pick you up. And now you've got intent, you've got shoppers who are buying looking at you. Um, and now you're just, you know, one of those products on the digital shelf, like even something like Amazon, right? Like that's the biggest sort of marketplace where you're able to, you know, get ton of eyeballs. And I've talked to a lot of founders, some who, you know, will say, oh, I wish I got on Amazon sooner. Even though it's a whole different strategy and a different beast. And you have to understand how to price it versus your D2C offering and all of that sort of stuff. So I just think every brand, it's like you're kind of on your own to figure out what the mix looks like for you. But to your point, Martin, I think it's so important, um, understanding that the value in retail is not only just, um, the distribution, but it's the exposure to those buyers that are going to be in market that are part of your icp, the people you're trying to target anyway. And it allows you to get in front of them and, you know, make your pitch.

Speaker B: Completely agree.

Speaker A: So, um, okay, let's talk a little bit now about what does it take? Once you have sort of done your thing and you've looked at some of these online marketplaces, you've looked at independence, you've sort of built out that sort of supply chain. Um, you've got your three pl, uh, what does it take or at what scale should you be thinking about retail? Right, Because I think we see it. We see some brands who, you know, basically barely have any presence on dtc. They're putting all their effort into retail, and the next thing you know, they're like a nobody. And all of a sudden they're on the shelves everywhere. And you're like, whoa, how does that happen? You have, like 500 followers. Like, what's going on? Uh, or on the other end of things, like we said, you might see these brands that are scaling have, like, crazy ad strategies. Crazy funnels are, like, scaled up on D2C. Like, they haven't even entered the retail picture until they're, like, beyond 20 million plus, um, in D2C. So I think that brings me to my point. And obviously, like, I know we said it's up to you as a founder to know when that is for your brand. But, like, you know, when you. When the brand wants to do it, right, what do they. What do they need to know? And how do you actually break in retail? Because, like, we're saying there's some brands that have major, uh, scale, can't break into retail, and there's other brands that have, like, no scale, and the next thing you know, they're like, massive in retail. So how does that work?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're. You're fundamentally discussing two strategies, Blaine, which I think which we'll unpack right here, right now. There's. There's the kind of the. The old approach, if you will, the early 2000s, where the conventional adage is build direct to consumer as Large as you can, as big as you can. And when you kind of exhaust that channel then you parlay those discussions into retail and then that's when you go to Walmart, that's when you go to Target, that's when you uh, sequence that distribution to all the grocery channel into club, et cetera. That was the doctor Squash playbook for example. And there's a plethora of other brands that have followed that same approach. And what I think you're seeing um, on the inverse is these direct to retail strategies, these direct to retail approaches. And that's a really like I really am quite bullish on that approach. I think it kind of turns the uh, the conventional um, brand building playbook on its head of like oh, you can actually build a brand at retail from day one because that truly fundamentally is where you build a brand. I think that the, the, the costs and the risks are what outweigh this channel is you, you really have to believe that your product is, is good and ready for you know, a mass, mass audience. Unless you're some you know, kind of farmer's market brand that's like kind of tinkering, iterating and doing like the national uh, natural grocery channel for example. But let's say you know there's uh, there's been this, this uh, trend of large uh, creator backed brands direct launching into mass retail, into Target, into Walmart and um, you know Papa Tui W tone, you know they're very much in like the personal care section. But um, that's a playbook that I remain really bullish on just because um, the, it really shows the resonance of retail, the staying power of retail. Um, when you look at valuation of like quality dollars let's say to a pro forma retail is always going to hold more weight than direct to consumer because there's less essentially variables that go into the consistency of that um, that same dollar that's produced is, is producing $1 in retail, while it might take longer, is I believe a higher quality dollar than you know a dollar produced on direct to consumer. And you, you know that that's not just my opinion. That's validated by um, you know a lot of the recent exits you've seen in um, in the CPG space is these are large omnichannel brands that, that have a diversified mix between physical retail and, and uh, the online channels. And today it's like you're really seeing this almost hybridized approach of um, both of those things becoming true of maybe a direct to consumer launch happens but it's not the primary channel. It's not like a DTC native brand. They're parallel pathing retail discussions. You know brands that have done this really successfully I think are like David or um, Grooms, you know kind of these, these larger um, almost future case study brands um, which are extremely well capitalized and with professional operators of course. So take it, take those examples with a grain of salt. But I think that hybrid approach of like doing both at the same time is a safe bet for how to build a brand today in 2025. Because again I want to, I want to reiterate is like what I built the playbook I built at Squatch that was in 2021. It's in many ways not really relevant um to how to scale a business today. And so it's taking the um, the frameworks from that strategy is really what I help brands apply and helping um, contextualize that and apply it to their specific um, route to market category, um, assortment, price point. All of those things is really what um. Yeah I just love to do and um, have the privilege of helping brands to do so. I hope, yeah, I hope that's helpful. Yeah.

Speaker A: And no that's, that, that's super helpful. I think that's spot on in terms of like that sort of hybridized approach. And I think the examples of David and Groons are um, really on point where they're kind of everything that they're, they're doing, they're like rocket shipping their D2C stuff but that's like parlaying into their retail and then they're rocket shipping their retail which is parlaying back in their D2C so it's like it allows both to accelerate the right way and they've got enough capital to, to match that scale. Um, but I'm curious right for you know the brand operator who uh, maybe isn't as well capitalized or doesn't have the experience running the brands looking to, to run it up and get into retail. What does that look like? Do you need to raise money first? You shop things around like what does that first retail sale look like? How do you get it? What goes into it? All that good stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, that first major retailer sale is really brand specific. It's hard to answer directly. And so the um. Because again I talk about this a lot and this is a lot of what I help brands do is you can't just like spraying pray retail. You can't just kind of be like I'm going to talk to Whole Foods, sprouts Target, Walmart and uh, CVS and I'll see which ones take me and I'll go there. A lot of that was the approach that a lot of brands took in when Target was having its heyday of uh, bringing on all these small um, kind of non resident brands that really had no business being in retail for the first place. Um and then you see Target now over correcting in that strategy. If they're simplifying their assortment, they're narrowing it, they're, they're going a lot up uh, for larger suppliers specifically. And so you know that first retailer um, conversation playbook really needs to be a function of like what you are trying to get out of retail. Why are you going into. It's one of the first questions I ask brands is why are you going to retail and why now? And only the brands can really answer that. I can help brands answer that but that should, that question, that answer to it informs your strategy of what um, yeah, who you actually go to. And so if your consumer is you know a, a Walmart shopper, why the heck are you trying to sell it to Whole Foods? How is that going to be relevant if you're um, you know a nine dollar a bag of um, of seed, seed oil free um, uh tortilla chips. Why are you trying to pitch this to Walmart when Erewhon is your number one consumer? You know. And so it's just fundamentally understanding who your consumer is, where they shop is going to be really a critical insight for um, that's, that's what I talk and just want people to take away from this is have the strategy, have the perspective, have um, a point of view. Because if you're just going into these discussions into a, into a buyer presentation with no real like just selling on the merits of the brand and that's it, you're really not gonna, you're not gonna get very far because uh, because a buyer sees they don't really care about your brand, they care about a few things. They, they, they want to know how are you going to move units and move units above my hurdle rates, my minimum for, for this category and how are you going to bring your shop or your consumer into my store rather than someone else's. And so again it's a fundamental reshift I think a lot of digitally native brands have to make when they actually go into retail is how do I speak a different language to these buyers? Because again brand doesn't almost matter. Like yes, sure, like it's important. But the um, the More resonant is going to be in your tactics, your strategy and your execution. And of course, that's where, um, you know, folks like myself is built out. Um, built out a, a career and helping, helping brands do that.

Speaker A: And so what is that look like? Right, you, like you said, you know, you, it's not just about having a pretty brand. Uh, it's about how you can help. Like, how are you gonna, A, move units, like help that brand, that store, you kind of break above their average of whatever they're selling in the category. And B, like, what advantages are you giving them? It's not just like, oh, like, now I'm in there and I don't have to do anything. So what, why don't you walk us through, I guess what, what does that buyer process look like? Right? Like, where do you go? Obviously every retailer it's a little different, but like, you know, people talk about these buyers and finding these buyers. Where are these buyers, how do you get, you know, in front of them? What does a pitch look like and how long are we talking? Like, if you have a successful pitch, like, what then what? All of that stuff.

Speaker B: Cool. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about the way to fundamentally approach a retailer, a buyer in 2025. Because, because there's a lot of different ways to do so. Um, the first is, you know, reaching out to a buyer yourself. You can do some research on LinkedIn, you can, you know, find some emails. There's like all these crazy scraping tools that like, um, help help, uh, find that. That's one approach. And I'll, I'll explain the merits and risks to each. The other is, you know, some buyers, depending on the account and depending on the brand, will actually reach out to a brand. Some. That's how some brands have gotten on shelf at Target is like, oh, like I'm looking for, I have a gap in my assortment. I'm looking for this type of brand. Like, will you have a line review discussion with me? And the third is obviously what I facilitate and help brands do is you hire a trusted partner, an operator, a, uh, broker who helps represent your brand, has established relationships, has established connections with any of the retailers that you might be considering. Considering. And you go into that retailer from a place of strength, um, and go into that. That's really the advantages of hiring a, um, you know, representation for your business is you get a trusted operator who has, just knows how to talk to retailers. Because that I guess we talked about earlier there again, there's three tactics. The problem of reaching out directly to a buyer yourself is um. Well you, you might kind of piss them off. Like they get uh. Buyers are inundated with brands and reach outs and you might not get a response. You might get a response depends on, on how your outreach is honestly and if, if it's actually a need. But I've, I've seen that approach do uh, in many ways a lot more harm than good. The uh, obviously if you get some inbound from a buyer themselves, that's great, have the conversation. But also don't let the tail wag the dog of like oh, I need to launch in Whole Foods because the Whole Foods buyer hit me up. This is a secret guys. Is you can always say no to a retailer. And how you say no is just as important as how you say yes. You can say no like hey listen, we are not ready to invest in the supply chain necessary to service this business or we need to make more investments in our um, in our pack design to ensure that we have the best presence on shelf. Um have a rationale and also a of part plan for how to come about this because you can always resubmit and if anything you're going to be in a place of strength when you go and resubmit for that opportunity. Is Is um. So again I always caution people who have had a buyer reach out to them directly is. Is make sure you're ready. Make sure that this, this doesn't change anything about the fundamental execution you need to have um ready for brands. And then of course the third approach is hiring somebody like myself is Is m. You know, a lot of the value of the brokerage space is much. Goes much beyond just setting up a meeting. If that's all your broker does, you should really kind of have a hard conversation with them of like what value you actually providing beyond this. Because fundamentally what a. A good partner should help you do is commercialize and scale up your business is how to operationalize, how to really integrate uh with a retailer, how to set up all the reporting, how to do all the um, you know, set up with distributors, how to do all of the new item paperwork, how to set up retailer promotions. All these crazy things that you have to figure out how to do as a brand. Um, yeah, it always helps having some perspective of folks who have done it multiple um, multiple times across multiple categories and um, and know the, the pitfalls, the things to watch out for. And um. Yeah, I think the, the. The intention behind starting what um we build at Highline is really recognition that this brokerage model is fundamentally broken and needs to change is a lot of, um, other brokers in the space aren't partners to brands. They really don't invest in the brands. They don't believe in the brands. And so that's really where we differentiate ourselves, is we go, uh, a lot deeper rather than wide. We're not throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. We're investing in brands that we believe in, that we know will work and helping them give the strategy, the tactics, the um, the approach to be able to approach retail in the most strategic and impactful way. And so that's kind of the three ways you can talk to a buyer. And, and then again, we can have a long discussion about, like, what, you know, scaling up from there actually looks like or, you know, some of the tactics that you should, uh, you should utilize when, when talking to some of those buyers. But yeah, it's always a, a, a, um, very. There's a lot of different tactics you can use totally to be successful in retail.

Speaker A: So. All right, well, let's, let's go for them. Let's go for the tactics. Let's, let's. First, I want to talk about you guys Highline, your approach to that sort of stuff and what it means to work with, uh, a brokerage. I think a lot of people, when they hear, you know, brokerage, they, you know, like, maybe some are really good, some are not so good. Like you had just alluded to. What does a deal look like? You know, I think we understand if you're in a position, you're running a brand and you're like, look, I want to move fast. I want to do this the right way. I haven't done this before. You want to work with someone that you can trust, but who's got the relationships, who can kind of help, you know, put you on that fast track to success in retail. But what does it entail? How do brokerages work? How are they structured? Um, and, you know, once we chat through that, then we can go into all the specifics that you had talked about.

Speaker B: So let me provide an overview of the best ways brands can evaluate a prospective broker partner to work with their business. Um, because I say that as that's fundamentally what you are hiring is, is a partner in the business. And the best brokers are partners, full extensions of your team, hatching on your behalf in your best interests. And so the way that you can kind of, um, the way I have built out successful broker networks in the past is really finding specialists. Finding specialists who. And you can Specialize in a lot of different ways is you can specialize by account, you can specialize by category, you can specialize by maybe the type of brand. And so what we specialize in is again emerging, uh, brands, brands that are net new to retail and that has been our specialty. And then we have some subspecialty of retailers that we, we're particularly strong in, of course. But um, that's always been one criteria. Something I always ask is like, you know, what is your differentiation? How are you different from, you know, Joe Schmo, broker across the street, the other one. And I'm not going to name names here, but um, it's really, I've had a lot of success building out partnerships with what's just described as a more boutique approach. And so really what that is is usually a core, core. You know, you're working directly with the founder. Uh, like you, you get to do with myself. Um, they don't have a massive team of like a bunch of VPs and account managers and all these things out. Because again, the problem with the larger shops is you might get like sold to and like, oh, here's all the relationships we have and the ways that we can support your business, yada, yada yada. But then as soon as you are signed is you're just farmed out to uh, yeah, it's pretty junior account managers. Maybe been a buyer for a few years, doesn't have anywhere near the, the resonance and depth of relationships required to actually be successful. Um, and a lot of this like evaluating a, a, a prospective broker partner comes down to again, like, what is it you are seeking to do in retail and how, how can you communicate that to your partner of like, you know, I'm trying to use retail as a way to acquire new consumers. I'm trying to use retail as a way to grow top line. I want to use retail because I'm trying to get acquired by Unilever and that's the only way that they actually, um, make, uh, make investments. And you know, I, I can't be digitally only. I can't, I can't be a DTC only brand if, if that's my, my end destination. And so, um, again, understanding the, why the strategy behind all of this should always roll up to um, to who your partner actually is. And, and again, always, um, I encourage everybody who's evaluating partners to just talk to a lot of folks, you know, and I have referrals. I'm, I'm, I'm. There's, there's, there's Plenty of great uh, partners, friends in the industry who, who I connect that do, you know, specialize in areas which I'll never even begin to touch. And so um, that's what's so great about um, once you're, once you kind of get in network with a, a few resonance good partners is you can just kind of play the referral game. And um. Yeah. Who do you know that covers uh, the convenience channel? Who do you know that covers drug. Who do you know that covers Costco? Um, you know, like those are. I get these types of questions all the time. And so, um, and you know, over my, my years in the industry and um, uh, my partners as well is we just have those relationships and have those trusted partners to be able to, yeah. Help do right by the brands. Because again, I think that's, that's what again fundamentally sets us apart is we are investing in the success of the brands that we bring on. We're not just viewing them as a number, another client, number 27 or something like that. So yeah, it's really uh, again, deep rather than wide is our, our intent, our strategy.

Speaker A: So what does it look like though from a, like a, a pricing and deal structure point of view? Right. Like I think one of the interesting things with this market, it's like getting in the right retailer can like legitimately change the complete trajectory of a company. Right? Um, I think that's a given. You see brands that like I had mentioned that are like doing decent and then all of a sudden they get plugged in at a Whole Foods or a Sprouts, they appear well on shelf, they've got like a good supply chain, they raise some capital and the next thing you know, like they're exiting at like an 8x multiple for a billion dollars and you're like, whoa, that was sweet. Um, so like, obviously it can definitely accelerate things, but when you look at deals like how do things work, you know, retainer, brokerage fee, like what does it look like, um, you know, for you guys? And also when people are evaluating the landscape, like how does it work and how should they think about structuring, uh, a brokerage deal to, you know, make it work for everyone involved?

Speaker B: Yeah, having a tight contract is, is going to be one of the biggest indicators of success of a good broker brand partnership. And so, you know, the, the model that's really typical for any retail broker is going to be a combination of a retainer and commission. Some function of those two. Um, some brokers specialize in commission only and that's, you Know that if you hire a broker going with that model, just know you might be maybe the spaghetti against a wall kind of approach. You're not really going to get the service level that you would maybe need or expect because uh, there's 50 other brands in the portfolio, some uh, of which are already paying the commission checks. Um so again I'm always pretty skeptical of the, the commission only model just because it doesn't necessarily necessarily uh, it doesn't necessarily align incentives. Um the function of a retainer is, is really just time. And so I think like a big, big shift for a lot of digital brands for them to understand is retailer timelines are, take a long, a really long time like from when you start conversations to when you get on shelf. It's anywhere from nine to 12 months. That's when what you, that's the timeline that you should really be expecting. And so when you think about the partner, again this is a partner, somebody that you are, is investing in your business is an extension of your team. Um that partner needs to, needs to be compensated in some way. Can't defer compensation for 912 months down the road. And if they do you're probably not going to get again that level of service that you might expect. And so the way we build our agreements is really meeting brands where they're at. And that's, that's fundamentally what I think like needs to change within this model is so many um, brokers today just have their contract, have their templates, have the way it working, take it or leave it. And so you know we really scale up our, our, you know, our function really how our, our model is based on again meeting brands with what their needs are, not charging them for what they don't need versus what they do. And so maybe that's a really narrow scope retailer covering just Walmart. Maybe that's a super broad all encompassing scope covering every you know, mash retail, grocery club, everything. Um it just depends on what the brand's needs and strategies are. And so that is, is really what I encourage brands to, to, to take a hard look at is you know, understand what it is you are paying for and what like how to actually align in sands. The commission model I think is really straightforward um because obviously you're not really getting paid until um, the brand actually physically gets on shelf in retail. I think that aligns incentives from the broker brand really cleanly. Um and yeah the, the, the approach and really partnership with any brand and broker needs to be between um, yeah needs, needs to be with that of again, aligning incentives so that both parties are clear on what each of them will need to be successful. Like, for example, we're putting into our agreements is like, in order to proceed with retailer, um, submissions, we need our onboarding documents completed so that we even have the materials to be able to represent the brand. I've, I've had engagements kick off where it takes three months to get a sales deck for the brand. And like, oh, we don't have one yet. We don't know, like, we're working on it. And it's like, guys, I'm, I'm, um, we're sitting on our hands right now until we can actually like, have a narrative that we can submit to Whole Foods or whatever the account actually is. And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a partnership. And that's what I really want to reiterate is like broker brands, relationships, um, are really partnerships at the end of the day. And so invest in somebody you believe you can partner with. Invest in somebody who you believe you can have a relationship with long term because, um, yeah, invest in the people. That's what I love about consumer is it really is fundamentally a people industry. Um, it's built by people, um, people buy the brands. It's, it's really a, a cool industry in that regard. And so, you know, that's my, my, my brief love, uh, letter to, to CPG at large. But I hope that that answers your question.

Speaker A: No, no, definitely, definitely. And I think the models, I think it is really interesting what you say in terms of the different models, especially commission, uh, only. Commission only could sound really good. You're like, oh, nothing, nothing to lose. But like, you know, on the other side of it, that might mean like, you're not getting the actual focus you want and they're throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall. And maybe it hits, but like also maybe it doesn't. And then if it does hit, you're out for a bigger fee than you probably would have been if you just paid the retainer. Anyway. Um, so I think that's, that's pretty cool insight there. And now I want to talk about like lastly, you know, you do have a lot of insights from being in these meetings, doing the pitches, knowing the materials that they sort of need. Um, you know, we just talked a little bit. You alluded to the buying cycle, how long it actually takes before you get in shelf. But like, you know, when you're sitting down with the buyer, you know, what materials you need, what does that deck look Like, I know we touched on it a little bit, but like, walk me through what the process now looks like to actually land, get in and succeed.

Speaker B: Yep. And that's gonna, again, I'm gonna answer if the process to land in a retailer, the narrative, the deck, there's no magic deck structure that's going to immediately get you on shelf at a Walmart. Because so much of the success of retail is really a function of, you know, category dynamics. So what is the, you know, what, what white space do you fill within this category? And how do you, the brand, fill that, that white space? That's, I think, one of the biggest questions.

Speaker A: Uh, I love that because. And I think this applies to like, all sort of businesses because, like, there's, you know, a lot of business builders, like, they have a lot of ego and they're like, I'm making this business, but like, I fundamentally believe, like, there's a market and if it's not you building the business, like someone else is going to build it because there's a white space there. And maybe the brand looks different, maybe it's a different name, different packaging or whatever. But like, if there's a white space, like, someone's going to fill it. Right. And it's your job for it to be you and for your brand. So I think that's like a super spot on. Take that. Um, you know, it's the category dynamics that drive a lot of that. Okay, I'll, I'll let you keep going.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, it's really again, a function of how, how do you meet an unmet need in the category today and how does your brand communicate that to consumers both on your pack, both on your merchandising, and both on your, your, you know, your trade marketing approach of how you're going to drive, uh, traffic, uh, velocity, all these things to that particular retailer. And that's, that's kind of the, that's honestly it guys. Like, that's the big thing. You can talk about the brand story. You can talk about like, obviously, what's your assortment, what's your price point, um, what are the specific tactics you're going to use? All those things are kind of, again, specific to the brand, specific to the retailer. But the bigger thing is like, what's the white space? How am I going to drive traffic to, uh, to meet that white space? That's fundamentally what a. That's again, aligning your messaging, your narrative to a buyer is really understanding what their needs are. What that buyer, uh, is accountable for is growing Their category not growing your brand, they're growing the category. And how are you brand going to help me grow this category? How are you going to not take dollars from this other brand that's doing really well and just shift to your brand? Like you might like that as the brand, but like the buyer, they don't give a shit. They don't care about that. They, they don't like that line to their, their needs. And so how are you incremental mental. How are you driving again, a net new consumer to stores? That is the key question and the narrative that you should construct as a brand. And that's again, what will I help people do? Yeah, not all brands can do that credibly.

Speaker A: Totally. And I think it's one thing that's super interesting. There is like you're saying the buyer isn't necessarily looking for just like a lateral shift and it's like, oh, I'm going to swap out brand A for brand B. Sales aren't going to move or whatever. It's like, how do you get someone who's like walking down that aisle that maybe wasn't even planning on buying that to like be like, wait a minute, I actually do need that as part of my routine. And like, um, you know, one. Another thing I'd love to kind of unpack with you is because you said at the end of the day, um, you know, you as a brand are responsible for uh, you know, helping drive that traffic. But I think there's kind of like a distinction there because I think you see a lot of brands that are like cult favorite brands that do have the ability through socials and through like the buzz that they've built. They've got like true fans. They can actually drive significant traffic onto shelves. But you also have brands that maybe don't have that social poll, but they've just got uh, like a magic product that when it sits on the shelf it sticks out, it communicates what needs to be communicated and the, the shopper who's walking down the aisle is going to see it and like gravitate towards it. Right. So I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Like, are there two ways to approach it? Do you need to be, you know, like you're saying driving, um, you know, necessarily your own traffic or is in some cases creating an amazing packaging, an amazing product that has the ability to pop off shelf and draw in the buyers who are just like already in that store who are like, I'm gonna check that out. Like, how does that work?

Speaker B: Yeah, Two, you're, you're talking about two main mechanisms at which you can drive velocity stand out on shelf. One of those to your point Blaine, is going to be the merchandising. How it presents on shelf, where it's on, where it is on the shelf, maybe if there's a brand block. So if there's like uh, all of the products are grouped together, um, those are all really important tactics and having a point of view, having a perspective on what the merchandising tactics are to drive that velocity. And then outside of the shelf, what about off shelf? What about an end cap? What about a Sidekick? What about a pdq? What about all these other uh, corrugated options that you can do that are fundamentally merchandising? Um, those are really, really important tactics to be able to speak credibly about. Um, particularly if you're again an at scale digital brand that's eyeing retail for the first time. The second um, piece that you mentioned is again those digital tactics. So how do you activate your consumers and how do you drive them to stores? M. There's so many cool ways and cool service providers that are doing that. I won't name names but reach out if you need some referrals. But ways that you can you know, aggregate influencers to do a UGC approach of like hey brand XYZ now available at Target. Um, and just kind of flooding the, the and then running those campaigns and the geos that you're at. And so people are just kind of naturally associating oh you know this brand that I really like is on Target. Maybe next time I'm in Target I'll, I'll find them hard to attribute those sales. There's some folks that are trying to do that but that's the again that's the value of a digital brand is like it's obviously um, more of a uh, more of a marketing kind of awareness play rather than a direct like you know, call to action of Click here, buy this now xyz. And those reach campaigns are a little bit more um, those are cheaper on a cost per impression basis than like uh, yeah than just running everything on like paid media. So again there's a lot of different tactics that are introduced but I think you kind of astutely break them down into two big ones is yeah your merchandising as well as your digital tactics and those two things together is how you're going to drive velocity at shelf. And there's a lot of different permutations within that that are going to be specific to the brand.

Speaker A: Sweet. Um, Martin, I'm not going to keep you forever. Uh, we covered so much. Um, I know there's like, more that we'll be able to jam on. We can go all the way in on, um, you know, scaling in retail, finding that scale. Once you're in, how do you, like, really continue, like you're saying, to drive merchandising, what does it take for a successful launch? But, um, you know, maybe what we can do is run it back in the future. This was awesome. This was kind of like a crash course on, like, how do you get in? Um, who do you need to know? Uh, and for anyone who's listening, uh, Martin, why don't you drop your socials, your connects. Where can we find you? Where can we connect with you if we have any more questions?

Speaker B: Yeah, best way for you to get in touch with me is on LinkedIn. Uh, just Martin Ford, F O R D E. There's an E at the end. Um, and you can check out my website, highline retail.com. um, and you can book time with me there too. Um, I'm happy, uh, to always just engage with brands, answer any questions I can. Um, love, love just having, uh, conversations with folks that are really eyeing retail. Maybe for the time, first. First time. Maybe, uh, from a different lens and yeah, just happy to be of service in whatever way that looks like. So, yeah, reach out on LinkedIn on my website and yeah, Blaine, just want to again express my gratitude for the time to speak with you today. And, um, yeah, hope it's look, uh, forward to the next discussion.

Speaker A: Appreciate it. Thanks, Martin.

Speaker B: Thanks, Blaine.

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