DWAVC: Drew Glover | Ep. 37

Speaker A: Welcome to Drinks with a VC where we explore the humanity behind investments. Grab your favorite drink and join us as we laugh, learn and liquor up with some of our favorite venture capitalists.

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Speaker A: Hi and welcome to another episode of Drinks with a vc. My name is Vikram Lacquara, co founder and general partner at Greencow Venture Capital, and I'm joined as always by my co hostess with the mostest, Bri Hanson, who leads business development for Cooley, an amazing law firm supporting tech and life sciences companies around the globe. Thank you to our sponsor, Fidelity Private Shares. Using the Fidelity Private Shares platform, founders can automate their equity management operations and financings in a single collaborative hub. To learn more about how Fidelity can help your company grow, please check out the episode description below. Well, due to a family emergency, we're starting today's episode off a little differently and you'll notice a delay in the release. However, we're dropping it on a date that feels especially meaningful. Juneteenth Our guest today is Drew Glover, an exceptional black leader in venture capital and the co founder of Fiat Ventures. Our conversation spans his civic minded roots playing football at Cal to a unique partnership that formed with his friend and former equipment manager. Drew shares what it was like to raise a venture fund in the wake of George Floyd and reflects on the rise and recent retreat of DEI in the startup world. He details how Fiat's deep commitment to investing in underserved communities happened organically without ever needing a formal diversity mandate. He also speaks candidly and we're honored to share his voice on this day of reflection. Also featured in this episode is a conversation around user acquisition, how Drew and his co founder Alex leveraged their experiences at uh Steady and Chime to build a proven playbook for scaling fintech companies like portfolios Companies bestow, copper and breeze. So today on Juneteenth, we honor the contributions of black men and women across the venture ecosystem, starting with this powerful conversation with Drew Glover. We hope you enjoy. Please welcome the pride of Bishop o' Dowd High School in Oakland, California, Drew Glover.

Speaker C: Go Dragons.

Speaker A: Drew, Cheers. Thanks for being on the show.

Speaker B: Cheers. So you chose Green Juice today. Tell uh us a little bit about your choice.

Speaker C: I have a seven month old child and I also have a kid that's almost three years old and I underwrite Risk for a living and the risk is far too high for me to be drinking alcohol with the risk of waking up hungover when I got two kids that are going to be in my face all day. Also, I just generally just need to be a little bit more lighter on my feet.

Speaker B: I feel like that's a trend, though. Less alcohol. I feel like that's becoming a thing. Or you feel like you're part of that trend.

Speaker C: If it's a trend, I'm definitely a part of it. I will say, I know the wine industry is hurting right now. I know that there's some industries that are taking a big hit right now because these young bucks, they want to be healthy. I want to be young.

Speaker A: You say young buck as if I'm a young buck, too. I'm not a young buck, but.

Speaker C: Oh, I'm not talking about you and I'm not talking about me.

Speaker B: I'm talking about Gen Z. I'm talking.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'm talking about Gen Z. I'm talking about Gen Alpha. The people that if they drink it would be illegal. Those type of folks.

Speaker B: Yeah. So when you do choose to drink alcohol, what's your drink of choice?

Speaker C: Martinis all day long.

Speaker A: Okay, nice.

Speaker C: Uh, vodka martinis. And I typically, if I drink, it's all gas. It's all gas, no breaks. It's all or nothing for me. I look at my wife, I was like, I don't drink to get tipsy. I drink to get drunk. And it happens very rarely, but I typically have enough. I'll have enough martinis where it's hard to make a fist because I. Because they're so dirty and there's so much salt in there. I've just. I have so much water weight on me because I've had 10 or 11 and it's my life. Or just slow dancing in the kitchen or something. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I'm fully on the let's not drink tonight train because I just. I'm excited about just detoxing a little bit. My wife and I were just in Joshua Tree. We were early celebration for her birthday, and I was like, you know what? I'm just not going to touch my phone. I'm going to just stay away. Digital detox. And we didn't really drink either. Like, the two of us don't drink. She'll open up a bottle of wine, and we'll have this much of it, just like a half a glass, and then we just waste it. And we're like, what are we doing? The only times we drink are when we're doing it socially. And more and more nowadays, like you, Drew, it's like those chances are fewer and just when we do drink, it's to get drunk. And she also loves martinis. Quick fact, by the way. And, Bri, I know that we talk about this a lot offline, but for people who have gluten allergies, not all vodka is created the same. So make sure you are drinking the right vodka if you do have a gluten allergy, because my wife, we didn't realize this, and I, uh, think it really could have really been a blessing much earlier on to, uh, know this.

Speaker B: So anyway, you want to drink Chopin because it's potato vodka. I deep dive into this.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker C: All right, Tito, Pinky's up.

Speaker A: It is what it is. I'm drinking a small batch. Positively pomegranate kombucha.

Speaker C: So nice. Good gut health. That's great.

Speaker B: With the suja. Like Drew did.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: He's converted me already. And we may have to change the name of this podcast, Vic, if this continues. And I guess I should make another announcement that I haven't.

Speaker A: Sober with beasties.

Speaker B: Yes. Oh, yeah. I haven't been drinking for almost over a year. In the last six months. Six months I've been pregnant. So I'm definitely not drinking in any of our episodes.

Speaker A: This is. This is the reveal. Is this what we're going.

Speaker B: I guess this is the reveal.

Speaker C: I think this is the reveal.

Speaker A: Drew, this is momentous.

Speaker C: Oh. Does the audience not know until now?

Speaker A: I think we've been faking it and. Or just leaning into how drunk I get.

Speaker B: It's true.

Speaker A: Now. Now we have the big reveal. Hey, there's a reason why Bree doesn't sound drunk on the last couple of episodes we've done, uh, because she's pregnant. Congratulations.

Speaker C: We've also uncovered that the best way to do a, uh, detox is to get pregnant. That is organic way to do it. So congratulations to you on being pregnant and also having one of the best detoxes of all time.

Speaker A: That is the way to really find very strong alignment with sobriety. And, uh.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: I'm all for it.

Speaker B: You don't want to get dirty looks from people. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker A: I think if you're in Italy and you partake in a place, Glass of red wine here and there. I don't think anyone's gonna look at you funny.

Speaker B: All right, so let's get into Drew's background. So my background is Oakland. Drew, you're an Oakland boy. We'd love to hear a little bit about life growing up and what it was like growing up in Oakland, Yes.

Speaker C: Born and raised in oakland. I'm an 80s baby, born in 1986 and uh, super proud to be an Oakland native. My both my parents were, neither of them grew up in Oakland. My dad grew up in St. Louis, my mom grew up in New York. But they both found them set theirselves back in or they found themselves meeting in Oakland. And my dad ran a non profit company called Ocher Oakland Citizens Committee for Urban Renewal which helped fight for underserved individuals and communities to, to get access to affordable housing. And my mom was a prince. Or first a French teacher in the Oakland Unified School District and then became a principal in the Oakland Unified School District. So I grew up with some civic oriented minded parents that were hell bent on me being really good at school and my dad was hell bent on me being a really good athlete and I loved being a really good athlete and I hated school. But it was a great experience. I think some call outs here. Although my mom was in the Oakland Unified School District, she would not let me go to the Oakland Unified High Schools. And so they put me in private school from like day zero.

Speaker A: That's what I was gonna ask you because I grew up in the Bay Area and I went to public schools until I got to high school and then I went to uhs. You might have heard of University High School. Might not have because it wasn't like we didn't have a football team. Bishop O'Dad. Yeah, that's San Francisco. Yeah, but we didn't have a football team like Bishop o'. Dowd. Now you all have a really good football team.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, we were all right.

Speaker A: But you, did you play football at Bishop O'Dad then?

Speaker C: That's right, yeah. Yeah. So I, I went to a school called St. Paul's Episcopal School from kindergarten through eighth grade, literally all eight years. Really great experience. And then I went to fish, bowed out High school and uh, played football at Bishop o'. Dowd. I grew up playing tennis, I grew up playing basketball. I grew up wanting to be just like Michael Jordan. And then, oh, uh, but also, let me take a step back. I played football in high school, but in fifth and sixth and seventh grade my dad was like, we're gonna put you into Pop Warner football. And for anyone that doesn't know, that is like full contact football. And this is before the high school ages. Today it's frowned upon. But back then it was like, let's rock and roll. And I grew up in deep east Oakland and I always jokingly say my parents did just well Enough for me to grow up around rich white people and, uh. And. Or sorry for me to be poor around rich white people. And it gave me, like, a really great advantage on life because I got exposure to really nice things, but I always came home to a very modest environment where I got everything I wanted and everything I needed. And then there were all these different things that my dad was really hell bent on of. Although I had. I went to school with a lot of very wealthy folks. He was like, if you play a sport, I'm putting you into the deepest part of Oakland and making sure you get that full experience. And so I did that with a number of sports, but football was one of them. And I'll tell you, when you get exposure to just like that inner city culture mixed with a full contact sport at that age.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: The time I got to high school and started playing football, I remember our first practice as a freshman. I was just. I was lighting kids up.

Speaker A: Uh. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I was.

Speaker C: I felt like a man amongst boys, and I remember it vividly. And. And that was, like, my foray into it. I was like, screw basketball. Screw all these other things. Like, I own this field.

Speaker A: That's right. That's right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, look, I used to play a lot of football in middle school. I actually also played Pop Warner one year in middle school. And I guess my question to you is I didn't hit my growth spurt. So by the time I got to high school, like, as much as I wanted to play basketball, soccer, all those sports, I actually played squash, and I would have played tennis, but I was just so far into. I'd gone so far into squash. That wasn't gonna happen. I was not gonna go back and play tennis again. Did you hit your growth spurt, like, early on, or did you.

Speaker C: I was always. I'm like six. Two, six, two and a half, depending on if I'm going to the doctor, if I'm putting on the back of my basketball card. But I. I was always a, uh, head taller than most folks. Okay.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker C: People don't talk about it often, but being tall and athletic as a young kid, that is currency. That is the same as being a millionaire. When you're in, like, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade. Right. Um, I was very happy with that. I got lucky.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're. I want to back up because something, like, lit up. I'm in St. Louis right now. We moved years ago. And you count your father as. You're one of your biggest. If not biggest role model. I know he passed away when you were 26. Talk a little bit about your father, uh, and how he came from St. Louis to East Oakland and sort of his thought process about making you really a sports kind of focused son.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, so, yeah. So my dad was born in St. Louis and he was one of three children. Him and his sister, although years apart, they went to Howard University, Historically Black college out of D.C. and uh, through that experience he got a ton of exposure to really just the civil rights movement. It was a very, it was a hotbed at the time. Howard was a place where you could truly think freely, really kind of understand and have exposure to how you want the world to become. And through that he met a number of different people that were from the Bay Area and, and ultimately came out to the Bay Area with a job. And that was actually with Ocher, where the original executive director and founder of Ocher gave him the job as basically president of IT almost right out of college. And, and by the time he actually passed away, he had been at Ocher ever since that first day. Um, he had built a really incredible business with an incredible cause. One that was timely, one that still was holds true with a massive need today, which is affordable housing for the folks that need it most. My dad was. Remains one of my heroes. Mainly because we all have those people in our network, in our world, in our family, where you just see a lot of the. They have this effortlessness about them in terms of building community, making friends, inspiring people. And, and he just had that. And as a kid he had that and was also mixed with this purpose driven approach to life where no matter who you were an equal to him. And as a kid a lot of us just learn by observing what other people are doing. And um, both my parents worked. I was not someone that like had a nanny. I was someone when I was sick, I was sitting in my dad's office all day. He wasn't staying home with me. He didn't have the luxury of taking time off. They made modest income, but the impact that they made was massive. As a kid I saw him like giving dollars to every homeless person on the street, knowing them by name and having full on conversations with them. I remember walking into corner stores and him dapping up the person behind the cashier and them giving him free stuff because he's just like such, uh, and then also I remember him doing a ton of public speaking and never preparing for anything but just walking up there and just like winging it and just no, ums, no odds, no and no likes, just like fluid. And it was the perfect example of someone that I always wanted to emulate. And, and I learned like how important community is. I learned how important to like shake someone's hand, look them in the eye and like always speak to them on their level. And also just to generally code switch. As you're running a nonprofit, you have to raise money from people that are wealthy. You have to give back to people that are not wealthy. You have to engage with people that are everywhere in between. And I saw his ability to comfortably switch, how he spoke, how he interacted, how he asked questions, everything. I saw him switch it on a whim. And the code switching that was happening throughout the day, throughout the week, throughout the month, throughout the years was again so effortless. And so I think a lot of people are like, oh, my parent, my dad was a, uh, engineer, they were a doctor. And there were like these very like rule based jobs that people are trying to emulate. But I looked at my dad and he was like the perfect example of this all around life player that I was like, you know what? I want to be good at everything like my dad, uh, and that's the person I've worked really hard on becoming. Where, don't get me wrong, there's a couple of places where I'm 10ft deep. But I take a lot of pride in being able to walk into any room with any, any person, no matter what their background, and being able to connect with them effortlessly. You can just learn and build really strong relationships.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and that started really early. Right. I had been around, uh, a lot of white people my whole upbringing. Ah, with the exception of a small Indian community around us. But at school it was mostly white kids. Middle school and then going to a private high school in San Francisco. I think I even used more of that code switching. Do you feel like you practice code switching at a very much at an earlier age than most people have to because of that upbringing that you were given?

Speaker C: 100%. I think the only thing I changed there is it wasn't practice. Like I was forced into it. If it was practice, I probably wouldn't have learned it because I'm like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna practice.

Speaker A: No, you're in the deep end.

Speaker C: But yeah, I was in it. But I, I also just really respect. And this isn't just my dad, it's also my mom. My parents also saw that there was a very easy way for me to just go to that school, come home and like, my day is done. They constantly kept pushing me into these, let's call a spade a spade, sometimes very uncomfortable environments. I mean, I remember when I was playing Pop Warner football, like there were some kids there from backgrounds that I like. I never even comprehended. And that was really important to me because after a couple seasons, the next thing you know, they're my friends. I know I'm engaging with them. I'm loving the world that they live in, they love the world that I live in. But these are uncomfortable environments sometimes. And from a very early age, my parents constantly forced me to find comfort and discomfort, which I always just think is like, important, important at the earliest of ages because you just learn how to, you learn how to be versatile in those situations.

Speaker A: So I was listening to an interview that you did on YouTube and you mentioned advice that you would give to someone early on is not to look at what other people have or what other people are doing as your North Star, but to find your own North Star and follow that horse with blinders on, be totally focused. Did you already have that mentality? But when you decided to go to Cal, talk to us a little bit about the decision to say, okay, I'm going to go from bishop of Dowd to Cal. And, uh, had you already found that

Speaker C: this is a good story? Because I only went to Cal because they let me walk on the football team. Yeah, uh, I walked, have dreamed to go, dreamed to go to Cal. I had, uh, I had a denial letter from Cal. And then three weeks later I got an acceptance letter for C from Cal. Uh, I got a full ride scholarship to St. Mary's College in Moraga to go play quarterback there. I was thrilled. Two weeks after I signed my letter, my offer letter, they dropped the entire football program. And they said, though they were like, we'll uphold your scholarship, but you can't play football. It's done. We're just scrapping the whole thing.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: And so at that point, I had turned down in like other cult, like division one, double A, like small school scholarships. So I basically just said everyone that showed any interest in me, I was like, um, I'm back on the market and if it's the right school, I will walk on. And to Jeff Tedford, who was a coach at Cal. Yep, he got wind of that and a couple of his assistant coaches who were recruiting me and they said, cool, if I'll send you an offer letter right now. Come walk on. And so three weeks later, that denial letter turned into an acceptance letter. Next thing you know, I'm going to one of the best schools in the world, the best public university in the world. And I'm like absolutely thrilled. So one thing that I've always taken a lot of pride in is finding, finding ways to break through barriers, uh, in really unique ways.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that was probably the first time where I was like, how the hell am I here? Like, how did this happen? Going back to your question though, it's that specific piece of advice from that specific podcast. It was a very selfish piece of advice.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, I have always been sometimes a jealous person, sometimes an envious person. And it's a superpower, It's a double edged sword. It helps and hurts me where it's one of my biggest drivers to be like, I want what that person has, I want what they do. And the other side is that can actually become pretty, pretty chilling and actually a, uh, regression point if you get too caught up and just. I'm not going to do anything about it, but I'm just going to be mad that I don't have it. And as I look back on things, I valuable for sometimes chasing what other people have. Because if you chase those things, you'll run and find different paths into other things that you might not have known existed. But at the end of the day, my best work has always been when I develop my own unique perspective or thesis on something and I run in that direction as fast as I can with blinders on until I find the answers that I need.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: But I personally believe it's a little bit of both. Like, you gotta, I gotta look up at the Giants and be like, I gotta know other people have become billionaires. For me to become a billionaire, I gotta know that there's a Michael Jordan so I can try to be like a Michael Jordan.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then surpass them if possible.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I was reminiscing like Jared Goff, Aaron Rodgers. There have been some really significant Cal quarterbacks that have gone on to play NFL. Just even having a start as a Cal quarterback is rarefied air. And you knowing who you are now for the total of 20 minutes, I can already tell like you, you made Cal your own. Even if you weren't like just straight walking on and being like the five star kind of number one recruit out of the NFL. I gotta think that you were well known and well loved and liked by all of your teammates. But that one time that you get on the field and you throw the football, what was that like for you? And was it just kind of like the surreal moment? Holy like, this thing that I had wanted to do, I got to do it.

Speaker C: Yeah. Quick stat correction there. When I ultimately got my opportunity to walk on at Cal, uh, I got on the phone with Jeff Tedford, and he said, you can walk on. You can play any position you want, but you can't play quarterback. And I was like, who gives a shit? So we might accept this letter on me.

Speaker A: Yeah, Just. Okay.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: I played wide receiver there.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: And it was a great experience. I ultimately earned a scholarship towards the end, but I played five seasons, red shirted my freshman year. Yeah. Uh, frankly, I didn't get a point. I hardly got any playing time. I was like a special teams warrior. Like, I was on all special teams. And I have. If you look me up, I literally have one catch in my career. Some people are like, oh, I'm gonna look you up. I'm looking you up. I was like, if you look me up, you'll find one catch. Don't be surprised. But it was an incredible experience playing at Cal. And just for anybody that's a football fan, like, my freshman year, the quarterback was Aaron Rodgers. I was the same year as Marshawn Lynch. Played with desean Jackson. Like, some ballers, like, when I look back and think I didn't get playing time, I'm sitting here, who gives a shit? These guys are like, hall of Famers. Yeah. They should have played in front of me. But. But yeah, I'm, um, a. I learned so much at Cal. Specific. Like, more. Less so on the field, more so in the locker room. That is where all the learning opportunities came from because of how much of a melting pot that team was, where people came from their socioeconomic backgrounds. Yeah, all these things. But all of us in the same room trying to win championships together. We all the same goal, but we all different backgrounds, and we had to find a way to make it work.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I, uh. Just to piggyback off of that, literally the common thread from your childhood and what your father represents for you to everything now. Being a black man in venture capital, like, you have had to be a chameleon and adapt to every room. And I feel like this. I see this thread of you going from one place to another place, just getting better and better at, uh, doing that. I want to. We can go back and we can cover the. What happened between graduating. By the way, I also want to say this. You're the only master's in education that we've had on this show, which just goes to show, everybody has had a unique kind of path to venture. But this maybe is up there with one of the most, one of the more improbable ones. Just also when you figure in how much venture capital funding goes towards black VCs. But I want to fast forward to when you decided to start first Fiat Growth, uh, and then Fiat VC and take that leap into what was coming. How did you decide to take that leap? Was it just pure solo conviction? Were there other people that helped push you? What was that like for you?

Speaker C: I always wanted to be a vc and I think a lot of it just started out with me romanticizing the job. I think it's very easy for anyone that's not a VC to fall in love with the idea, uh, of being a vc. So I'll start with that. I didn't know if I was going to become a VC or how I'd become a VC. So in 2018, me and a close friend of mine who actually went to Cal with, funny story, my co founder, Fiat Growth, is also. Was also a ball boy equipment manager while I was playing football at Cal. That's how, that's how we met each other.

Speaker A: That's how you met each other?

Speaker C: That's how we met each other.

Speaker A: This is Alex.

Speaker C: This is Alex Harris. Yeah.

Speaker A: All right. Shout out to Alex Harris.

Speaker C: Yeah, shout out to Alex Harris, the ball boy. Yeah, he was ball boy and he was an equipment manager.

Speaker A: Manager.

Speaker C: So, yeah, yeah. So I, I would get some good gear from him and like, once the kicker kicked the ball, he'd run on the field and grab it and bring it back. He was doing, he was, he had all the skills. But me and him, we reconnected early in our career. And I was at a company called Steady, which is a platform that helps folks in the 1099 world improve their financial health. Also a money management tool. And Alex, uh, was at Chime, we all know what Chime is, super large digital bank. And he was the head of marketing and partnerships there from Series A to Series D, both, both direct to consumer fintech brands. And we had really unique vantage point as these heads of partnerships because all these fintech companies wanted to partner with Chime and Steady Y. At the time, Chime probably had around 8, 8 million users. And steady was no joke. They had around 4 or 5 million users at the time.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: So we had all these companies saying, how can I partner with Chime or Steady so I can basically get my product inside of your ecosystem so all of your users will use our product. And what that meant is we were gatekeepers for lack of A better term, we were buyers of their product. So we were talking to 20 to 30 companies a week, each of us. And, and I'd always hit Alex at me like, yo, I just spoke to 30 companies. I think these companies are killer. Like I'm thinking about maybe like offering to help them from an advisory standpoint. He'd be calling me saying the same thing. So ultimately me and him said, let's just co advise a number of companies together like Uchi Me, Steady Dream Team for some of these really early stage folks. And so we started doing that and I'm going to spare you a ton of details here, but it quickly grew to 10, then 13, then 14 then. And we had a very simple model. We would basically. Sorry, we would get a retainer for our services and we would ask for the contractual right to invest in their next fundraising round. We had no money to invest in their company like we were. We were still trying to make it ourselves, but we knew that there was value in getting that contractual right to invest. So we had 14 or 15 clients at that point. It was enough for us to quit our day jobs and start this agency, which we looked at each other and said, this is a crazy market. 300, 400, $500 million rounds. People think they have to spend $500 million in 18 months so they can go get another round, but they're setting money on fire. It's just growth by any means necessary. There's a better way to do it. Let's start Fiat growth.

Speaker A: Sorry, before you get into that, like, what was the value prop. What was the pitch to these financial companies? It was like, hey, we've done this at Chime and Steady and so we can do this for you. What was the. How did you pitch them on? Hey, trust us, we know what we're doing here.

Speaker C: Yeah. First and foremost, a lot of the companies that we were helping with, you always knew who needed the most help because it was their founder calling and it wasn't some. They didn't have a big enough team to have built out a whole entire partnerships team. And so we were basically walking in there and saying, listen, if you're calling me, that means you're running a smaller company that is founder led everything. What we can do is we can basically be your outsource, affiliate partnerships and strategic, uh, partnerships team. We know everybody in fintech because they call us all the time and we've just made incredible inroads. And so we basically say, hey, tell us what your ICP is. Who's your ideal customer? Me and Alex are gonna put together a hit list of who we can literally, like, text tomorrow. Yeah. And if it's aligned with yours, then very simple terms. At the time, we were like, literally pay us $2,000 a month and give us the right to invest. And then we'd ask for advisory shares as well, so equity in the business. And it was like a very easy sell because one, we were asking below market asks and. And we told them, like, listen, our whole model is we're going to be an extension of your team. Think of us as like, your employees. We set up a Slack channel. You have access to us all the time, and we're going to do this together. Uh, so that was really the pitch here. And the other one was, just because you have the money doesn't mean you need to spend it fast to raise the next round. There's ways to. We can help you elongate your. Elongate your rate of spending money. And also at the same time, we can. We can make it so we activate a couple growth channels that you can truly scale up to the moon.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, in terms of your kind of journey, starting off at Cal, having a great coach, getting your masters of education, what have you learned about going from the player to becoming the coach to startups and changing and shifting that? How has that worked for you and what some, um, I guess ways you feel like you've been more of a coach and a mentor and a consultant as you've made that shift?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a good question. I think when I was in school, I feel like I was just learning about myself, and I didn't realize what I was learning until I was out of school. And then all of a sudden I was like, all these. And honestly, it was, frankly, all the things that didn't have to do with, like, actually going to class were like the most valuable pieces that I pulled from education. I thought that what I wanted out of my career was just being this individual contributor. As I got into my career, just so you know, I went to graduate. I went to the. I went to graduate school for education because I thought I wanted to become an athletic director. I had seen so much at Cal in terms of specifically all the kids that didn't make it to pro sports and how I firsthand witnessed them squander away their opportunity at a uni, at a university like a Cal. And I'm like, dude, just because you're not going to the NFL doesn't mean you need to just, like, transfer to some school or figure out some other place where they'll let you start. So that's what I thought I wanted to do. I quickly realized that there's just so much bureaucracy in the education system and it wasn't built for me. I just move. I know a lot of things about myself. I get bored of things really quickly. I move really fast, and if there's anyone stunting my speed or my growth, I will literally pull the rip cord and leave. I will also tell you I got into sales early in my career and I. You just witness what how other people do work in the world, and you just assume you're supposed to do it that way. There were a couple jobs that I had and I, like, stayed. And it was like I was trying to be so political and just make sure everyone was just happy with, like, my output and everything. And I quickly realized, one, I was really good at sales, and two is I had this thing as I really got into the sales world where you're like, so tell me more about yourself. And I was like, listen, I'm going to be the number one salesperson on your team, and you're only going to get me for two years, but I'm going to get your company from point A to point B. I can promise you that. If you're good with that, I like your product, I'm ready to work. And, uh, I told them that because. And they were like, what if we want. What if you. What if we want you for more to two years? I was like, then give me another role within the business. That, like, is going to get me really excited and it's going to excite me. But, like, I know that I'm going to get tired of selling your product in two years and I'm going to have to go find something else. I used to think that was just, like, what my career would be like. What I realized over time, though, is what I really wanted to be as a consultant. I wanted to be an advisor. I wanted to be an investor. I wanted to be able to invest in multiple companies, work with different companies all at the same time, and being able to, like, code switch. Like, I had learned throughout my career from these different challenges while doing it across multiple different ones. And so, again, like, these are like, these moments where I'm. I look back and I'm like, why do I want this? Why am I good at this? And I realize a lot of it stemmed from things that I had already been doing my entire career up to this point in elementary school, in college, and a number of different Places. And then ultimately getting the company off the ground is. I love it when you put yourself in these uncomfortable situations. You are forced to learn things that you never thought you needed to learn. I used to think I wanted to be, like, a VP of sales at some, like, big sales company. I remember the first time I got a director of sales role. I quit after six months. I was like, this is miserable. I'm making less money than all my reps, and I'm closing all their deals for them. What?

Speaker B: This is bullshit.

Speaker A: This is not the math. Isn't mathing.

Speaker C: Yeah. What's going on here? I also found out the hard way, and it just. Not the hard way, but it just took me a long time. Like, I needed to start my own thing. I needed to be the founder of something. So I can control my incentive plan. I can control the vision. I can hire the people that I want to collaborate with most. So thankful for Alex Harris, who's my co founder, because if you worked with me, like, I can be pretty intense, and I'm, like, pretty steadfast in terms of the vision that I want to work towards. And he can sometimes be like, the human side to be like, Drew, let's not forget, like, we're building something with the team, and we want them all to be here forever. And me and him are, like, really great yin and yang in terms of leadership, in terms of building something, creating my own thing, and being an entrepreneur behind that is. Is the best thing ever, because I created the world that I wanted to live in, and I used to not think that was possible.

Speaker A: And then you created Fiat Ventures with Alex and a third partner, right?

Speaker C: Marcos, uh, Marcos Fernandez.

Speaker A: Yeah, Marcos Fernandez in 2021, right?

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: What was it like fundraising in the pre. The years leading up to that? And how many. I guess. So how many of those companies that you started consulting for, working with at, uh, Fiat Growth, in that original kind of cohort, did you get to deploy capital into?

Speaker C: Yeah. Great question. When we started raising our venture fund, it was in 2021, and we closed our first venture fund in 2022 when we started raising. We had around 75 rights to invest by that time. And we basically had this idea because, again, me, Marcos and Alex, we did not. We were not venture investors beforehand. And the typical story is I worked at Excel for 10 years, and now I'm starting my venture fund. I worked at a 6T. Now I'm starting a venture fund. This goes back to the theme of finding unique paths to break through, like, pretty, like Traditional barriers. We really wanted to become a VC. VCs. At this point, we had 75 rights to invest. And we did a quick analysis, like literally a, uh, entire deck of. If we had invested in all these companies, we got the right to invest in. From the day they gave us the option to do it, this is what our portfolio would look like. And it was like a 30x10. I mean, it was different market, keep in mind, but it was big, right? Um, and we said, listen, you guys should give us money now because we're just at the beginning of this journey of getting the rights to invest. And remember, not just getting the right to invest, we are taking over the entire marketing efforts of this company while we have the rights to invest. So we also have ownership of ensuring that they are hitting these momentum swings. So the whole pitch was, is the normal VC model is. And that we think about as reverse engineering the VC model. Normal VC model. I meet a founder, I go to coffee with them, I take them to ic, I invest. And then if I have like a team, like a platform team, I can maybe like help introduce them to a recruiter or something. Our idea is we work with them three, three months, all the way to a year prior to us leaning in with investment. We use all that information to run like a diligence level that just typically isn't seen in the space. Way better than a coffee. And then we decide if we want to invest or not. And then once we invest, we put them back into the fiat growth arm of the business and keep scaling them. And so we're big believers that the future of venture is help build a company, invest in the company, continue to help them build. And so for us, that was what we pitched in that initial fund. And there were some people. It's funny, in the venture world, the smallest innovation seems you just solve some rocket scientist type of problem. But so there was a lot of, uh, people that were very traditional and said, hey, this is a little too different for us. But there were some like really big folks that leaned in and said, this is the future of venture. We're 100% in that first fund. We probably chatted with 800 people. I think we got 43 different investors in fun one. But I will say, as you're building a fund, like those 800 conversations, every, all the, all these folks care about, yes or no, is that your say to do ratio is 100%. And that's something we've been like always 100% on. So all those 800 people have turned into incredible investors for fun two and hopefully fun three and fun four.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a fantastic story. And knowing you and just like hearing you talk, there's one way to develop conviction in someone and a gp, and that's without knowing Alex, obviously. The other way is what you did, which was, hey, look, benchmark all of the potential companies that you could have invested in had you had the money when you were getting these first rights to invest to. Hey, where are they at? Because that is the most effective tool. Right. In my opinion is, hey, this is a look, a window into our deal funnel and uh, and how quality or high quality it is. The other thing that's happening in the background. And by the way, I really want to get back into growth marketing because there are a lot of lessons and I think we. There's some really quick bits of information that I think you can provide that would be very helpful for the founders that listen to this podcast. But I want to talk a little bit about the backdrop in which you were raising capital in this country, because I think it's something that I've wanted. I've wanted to chat with you since we. I started doing research with. But George Floyd killed May 25, 20, 2020. Let's be real. There was like something awful that was happening in our country all at the same time. And you had. I, uh, think what you like to describe is like this wave of DEI and a focus on, hey, look, inclusion. Let's really look at how we are, uh, providing inroads to underrepresented people in both startups and venture funds, et cetera. And then you talk a little bit about how you looked around and told everyone, like, hey, look, watch, this wave is going to dissipate. First, can you comment and just talk a little bit about how that initial wave might have helped you in your fundraising process? And then. And maybe it didn't. And then just a little bit about how this pullback that we're seeing on dei, uh, issues now is hurting the process for our peers that are underrepresented, minorities that are trying to raise and trying to get supported.

Speaker C: Yeah. First and foremost, describe it as a wave, because all waves die. And, uh, I also am like a history buff and there's, uh, a million, specifically with the African American community. People care the most when the most catastrophic, horrific things happen and then news cycles die.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I, uh, do believe that post George Floyd ignited one of the. It was more like a tsunami than a wave because it did last a minute. It did last a minute. And it was a really interesting moment for us because we were raising our first fund in the middle of it and we made a really, we made a conscious decision and that we were not going to have a uh, diversity mandate in terms of how we thought about investing. And when I say diversity mandate, if someone gives us $30 million and we're making $30 million investments, that there's a mandate that whatever, 60% of those investments would be in underrepresented founders or some specific like diversity DEI driven thesis. Um, and the main reason we did that is because we are a team of underrepresented GPs and we're really big believers that our backgrounds, in terms of how we grew up would organically bleed into how we underwrite deals and underwrite the people we invest in. Also we were big believers that our general thesis is that fintech is the uh, can, it has the ability to drive the largest positive economic impact on the world. And those two things together, we believe the output is naturally investing in underrepresented founders, underrepresented visions and so forth. I look back on those moments and there was a lot of first time venture funds, nonprofits, a million different places that benefited from this moment. There was a lot of money being pushed around that was allocated to this specific movement that I'm so thankful it did. I think that money has, regardless of the mentality of why that money was given, it was put towards really incredible causes. Again, my family is so deeply enriched in the non profit space. All of them, record amount of money that was being brought in during that time. And I'll never forget and this person shall remain nameless but like a pretty famous nonprofit leader. Because I was saying this is bullshit. Like this is gonna, this is gonna dissipate. Like I can't have this in my strategy. It was a woman, she said if the money's there, get the money. Cause it will die. And this is coming from a nonprofit leader where like all they do for a living is raise money for their nonprofit. I'm not gonna let, I know that how I deploy money is for the greater good. So let me get this money so it's in better hands with me. And I look back on it as an, as a fundraiser and even other g. The macro markets are in your favor. You have to take advantage of. And I think there was a lot of folks that did that specifically around the DEI movement. But I will say I am so thankful that we also stayed true to our strategy because if your long term vision is around, was around that specific movement, a Lot of them went to go raise their second rounds of their second funds and I saw it firsthand. They had to completely shift their strategy to raise a second fund. And I unfortunately believe there's going to be a graveyard of first time GPs and fund managers that just aren't able to do it again because their strategy was so deeply enriched around that wave. That's that DEI tsunami that unfortunately is still in the process of completely dissipating here. Our belief though, again, Fintech has the greatest opportunity to help people save, earn, invest and create generational wealth mainly across the 80% of America that needs. It needs help the most. And uh, and I also believe those are there. There's a new level of education and wealth that's coming from these future generations and I don't think they're going to be. The color of their skin isn't going to matter as much because everyone is so connected to the digital revolution now. So the, what used to be in terms of the shift around race is folks didn't have access to high speed Internet. Folks didn't have access to some of the things that, that would easily narrow the educational gap. And so I'm really excited where the future is headed. But going back to the initial conversation is these waves only happen around catastrophic events. And I think that's the most depressing part of it all is that's when, that's when positive moments come for money to flow our direction, which is just also generally sad.

Speaker A: Just. Yeah, man, I can't agree with you more on that front. I uh, really what you say and I think you're so eloquent in articulating why having a mandate almost limits you more in from taking advantage of your exceptional network which is already much more diverse than the typical network of the typical venture capitalist. And Bri, a crazy thing is the amazing, uh, thing is I should say 67% of. Or is it, sorry, 42% of Drew and team's portfolio are underrepresented founders. It's huge. 30, 30% minority founders, 21% female founders. The numbers are overwhelmingly positive or more positive than the typical venture fund. And that was without a mandate. So I think it's like the strongest kind of plant the flag. Hey, you think that mandates are going to be helpful or do you think that you should just put faith in underrepresented GPS to uh, invest in their people? This is the example. I think there's the 100%. The. My favorite thing about learning about Drew was like that stat was like holy. And thank you for sake. Thank you. I appreciate that because you do articulate it so well. And, uh, I find myself. People ask me these questions, and I'm like, just the fact that we are not white men that have MBAs from Harvard or Stanford, Berkeley, wherever, and that you are a. Someone who is a chameleon that is blends in every room, makes friends out of everyone, just by that nature. It makes you very much a unicorn, but also makes you someone that's able to generate deal flow from a very large socioeconomic background, like in spectrum. Right. So, anyway, sorry. I'm gonna fanboy out continually during.

Speaker C: I appreciate you, but I also think

Speaker B: it's just impressive that I think you've taken what your father has done and you're applying it just in a different way. I think you still have the same values that he has. And you're saying, how do I help underrepresented people? In his case, it was housing. In your case, it's business. So I see a lot of parallels between you and your father. So I think that's a huge compliment to you as you.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: Um, really looked up to him, and he seems like he was a very good man and very good for the community.

Speaker C: Yeah. I do think just, like, generally do good, do well. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. Again, I wanted to. I took a lot that my parents. I learned a lot from my parents, but I also wanted more than what they had and a big challenge. And I'm sure a lot of people just deal with this. Of. I want to do really. I want to do really well financially, and I want to do a lot of good for the world, and how can I do both of those things? And, uh, it's always a struggle. Like, even today, I'm, like, constantly being like, how can I make it? So I'm always doing both. And I keep that as 50, 50 as possible. But my dad, he. He did good. He was 100% good. And again, by them putting me into these private schools and just me getting exposure to things that I didn't have, but I wanted. It made me want to do. Want to do really well. And so that is. That's the constant juggle of life. Right? And then you put a. I got kids, I got a wife, I got. There's all these things that come along with it, but that's a juggle in a fa. Frankly, like a, uh, an uncomfortable responsibility that I have on my shoulders that, like, luckily, I'll always want to fight for. But again, that's one of the Great things of the do good part comes from my mom and my dad. The do part is all the other things that I wanted growing up.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Before we move from the dei, the subject, do you think it's just going to be one more tragic thing after another that brings a more inclusionary environment somehow or like that that begets. Or is there going to be a time and place in the future where in our lifetimes, or maybe Coco and Blue's lifetime, right, where we're there already, something bad doesn't have to happen. Something tragic doesn't happen, have to happen in order for us to really feel like, hey, like something can change.

Speaker C: Oh, I get the question. I get the question. Uh, if you talk about you want instant change, like the change that happened after George Floyd, where overnight people are just like. Some of it came from guilt, some of it came from a number of other things, but people were all of a sudden trying to give back to the African American community for all the wrong reasons and all the right reasons and everywhere in between. Unfortunately, I believe that big events that are typically going to be more catastrophic are going to inspire those types of sparks in the market. But obviously, if we think about Jim Crow, Jim Crow south from then till today, like, uh, it's night and day. And so I do believe that this change will come. I do not know if it'll come by the time my. By the time I'm able to see my kids grow up. But most importantly, it's just going to take a ton more time. And unfortunately, like, the waves only come at least from what I've seen in the history that I've spent a ton of time reading books on. And just all these different things, they. They come from either catastrophic events or big, monumental ones that are typically coming from more of a regulatory, governmental side of things.

Speaker B: So what advice would you give to underrepresented founders who maybe just missed the last wave, but have a great idea, have built a really great mvp? They're solving a real problem. There's a market wave for what they're doing, but they're just not getting any traction with fundraising.

Speaker C: This is where I get really excited about where the future's headed, is I think there's going to be a lot less founders out there trying to raise money.

Speaker B: I would agree.

Speaker C: I literally, I was. I. I. For lack for. I. Sorry to curse here, but I fucking hated our CRM at my company. I hated it. I don't want Salesforce. I don't want all these other crappy CRMs. I went on lovable for four hours. Lovable.dev or whatever. I just built my own. I built my own and now I love it. Our entire company operates on a CRM that I built. It's the CRM that I wish I had and that's what it is. And I'm not going to productize it. It is a way to add more margin to our business. I think I saved my team tens if not uh, 20s of hours a quarter having to deal with some shit CRM that's just like data entry time and time again. But I think we're going to see the lines blur with who these founders are and who these folks are that are going to come out the next multi million billion trillion dollar businesses. Because you don't need to get an engineering degree from Stanford to, to start a really incredible business that is an actual technology product. And so I would say to anyone out there that's trying to build, I was like if you need to go fundraise a couple million dollars to get to your mvp, then you're doing it all wrong. You don't go build it. And uh, and, and uh, make sure it's within a model where you can get, you can activate your network to be your first clients. And uh, I'm a big believer that over time there's probably going to be three rounds. There's going to be the earliest round, there's going to be the growth round and then there's going to be the big growth round. And at that point they make a decision if they want to go public or not. But I think the barrier to entry to building right now is the lowest it's ever been.

Speaker B: I totally agree. And I've been. I don't know if I believe in the Sam Altman one man unicorn theory. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't.

Speaker C: It's a sexy thought it isn't it?

Speaker B: But I do believe in the. You're not going to have to hire an expensive massive stable of engineers to build your product anymore. You're going to be able to build your product. I think go to market is going to be the black box which is where you come in and you know what you're doing. So I love that you just talked about building your own CRM. I think that's a really great segue into growth marketing. And also, I don't like the word growth hacker, but you do seem to have that ability because you have such a strong sales background. I have a really, I go deep back in sales as well and so when I look at a lot of these early stage startups, I see so many mistakes in their go to market because they don't understand sales fundamentals. So I'd love for you to share a little bit about how you grew your sales career. The sales fundamentals that startups should really be focused on early in their life cycle.

Speaker C: Yeah, first and foremost I'm a big believer that distribution is one of the last moats that still exist. I can go recreate your product, I can recreate just about anything that you've created. However, there's one thing I can't do is if one of you guys has a B2B company and your best friends are the buyers at the big four, then hey, your go to market is done. Go activate those opportunities, go to marketing. Marketing is very different as you think about it from a B2B2C standpoint than a B2B slash B2B2C standpoint. When I, when we started this, when we started Fiat Growth, it was very much a direct to consumer revolution. And that's why we saw such crazy large rounds because it costs so much money to get individual users to sign up for a product and then especially if your product isn't making enough money on the entry, but then to monetize them on the back end. Think of it very much like a bank. Savings and checking accounts are loss leaders. What they really want is for you to be with them for 20 years so you can buy your first house with them or get a student loan for your kids. Those are the money making products within that entire life cycle and going back. Uh, we are not growth hackers. That is a curse word in my house.

Speaker B: They do not want to use it. Sorry.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, no, it's all good. But to me really great marketers are marketers that are the most thoughtful and obsessive testers and iterators. They are tinkerers that are really good at running inexpensive tests, really good at failing fast and learning from those failures. And, and they're really good at understanding the rules so they can bend them. There are basically at Fiat, uh, we've hired everyone that we wish we could have hired in house once upon a time. They are the folks from SoFi, folks from Credit Karma, from Nerd Wallet, from Chime, from Inter, other really incredible fintech company that's come up over the last 20 years here. And we wanted to find the ones that weren't people managers but were executors and operators and uh, and the ones that had a very similar type of personality or at least this one trait of mine of I don't want to just focus on one company's problem. I want to focus on five to six at a time and I want to be able to jump around and, and work through some really tough solutions on our side. It's pretty simple. We believe that in this world that we're in today, you do not need to go higher marketing teams of 10 or 20. You do not need all these full time hires, especially as you're getting your business off the ground as you're trying to prove out a product. What you need to do is bring on the absolute best experts on that specific topic to come in and stand up the infrastructure of your business. We are not a business that wants to be with you for the next five to 10 years and get some like agency of record type model. We want to teach you how to fish. And once we've done our job, we actually want to help you go hire the people that can replace us to steer the ship that we built. You talk about a lot of these folks that say, hey, like something good's happening. I'm not exactly sure what it is. Great, we're going to work with you and we're going to build out your entire Martech stack so we can understand the entire user journey. Like the moment someone hauls an Uber to the moment that they like close the door when they get out. I want to know that entire user journey. What's working, what's not working, what's good, what's bad, what, what do we hate, what do we love? And we're basically going to reconstruct all the different event like acquisition triggers throughout that entire journey. And then I think it's, that's very much direct to consumer on the B2B side, it's very different. It's very much affiliate based, it's very much strategic partnerships based, it's very much network based. For us, we have, I think our focus is probably one of our greatest superpowers. We are fintech focused. We are not trying to be some agnostic agency that can work with just about anyone. Because when a B2B company comes to us and says, hey, our product is only selling into community banks, I'm gonna say, great, I got a team of 10 people. We've been around for six and a half years. We have a list of 600 community banks where we can literally send like an email to the decision maker at that bank if we believe your product is right for them. But we act as this like this, uh, mediator between. I know you think your product's a book built for every single community bank in this example. But actually after learning more, it's actually just built for these hundred. These hundred banks. And over time we can expand out what your product offerings are. But let's start out trying to get a hundred percent of your perfect customer to start. And we will actually act as your outsource BD team to get you to that product market fit. So you can be like, okay, great, let's go hire a team of two head of part or, uh, two partnership managers to take everything that you guys have, huh, built and bring it to life. But our whole thing is we want to bring an A team in at the right time when you're building things early on, save you a ton of money. Because we already know when you hire that first marketing person, you fire your first marketing person and all of a sudden, six, seven, eight months are down the drain. But we want to make it so your first hire. We have the perfect job description built for them because we know exactly what they need to do to be successful.

Speaker A: So much of what you have just said resonates with me and it sounds more like a understanding the go to market motion and process before you start running and. Sorry, I'm going to curse here. Growth hack, right? And I think, uh, I hope our listeners and our viewers take this to heart. Right? It's about understanding the customer journey, as you put it, and understanding all of the good and bad that goes in from point A to point B for that customer. Then how do you streamline it? How do you make it essentially better than the status quo? Right, with your product or service.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Uh, and a big piece of that is the go to market side, right? Like what you just said. I'd say 70% of our engagements typically start with some type of go to market engagement because everyone thinks they have a go to market strategy. Until my team comes in, starts asking you questions and they're like, no, we didn't do that.

Speaker B: We've seen slides.

Speaker C: Yeah, like what?

Speaker A: Who.

Speaker C: Wait, give me the top three person Personas that are like the absolute best customer or user for you. And they're like, oh, they're. This is their age range and this is this. I was like, what? I'm like, literally, what coffee do they drink? And they're like, but seriously, we should be trying to understand the Personas of our folks down to that. Like, do they drink cappuccinos? Do they drink this? Because depending on the type of product you have maybe. We seem to be sending coffees out. Free coffee. And again, that's a stupid example. But the more we know, the stronger we are in terms of how we can actually, how we can expand the growth of the business in the most effective and cost efficient way. Again, we're living in a world now where a, uh, $2,000, a $2 million seed round should get you 24 months. Where four years ago, a $2 million seed round got you six months.

Speaker A: Six. Right.

Speaker B: So I agree.

Speaker C: And huge understand, like, that's a huge part of the process that these founders need to understand is like, we are optimizing for Runway, right? And we are optimizing to make it so we can get as much as we can for that amount of Runway to ensure that you're not rushing to the next round. Because the next round, like in this market, you can't rush rounds anymore. You have to actually build consensus with the folks that are using your product.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm going to let slip our next guest on the podcast, but what you were talking about completely resonates with how Taehi Nam, um, from Storm Ventures, looks at Go to Market Fit. And with, uh, your permission, we want to have you back already. You haven't gone anywhere, but we want to have you back to maybe do a roundtable with Taehi on growth. And really this concept of Go to Market Fit, because what I hear from you is, hey, listen, we help you identify and validate your thoughts around the ideal customer profile. Then we look at your customer journey, provide some validation there, understand what's working, what's not working, how to really hone it and do it. And then, by the way, we're fintech focused, so we have, uh, sharpened our knives for all things fintech in focus, in nature. And I just think that is such a. I'm not an lp. I would say, if I looked, if I heard this, I'd say, okay, Drew knows what the fuck he's doing when it comes to fintech, right? And his network is easily the deepest of the bunch. Let's fund him. Right? But as a founder, I'd also say, look, that is real differentiation versus other VCs that are coming on. They're going to take up space on the cap table when you don't have a lot, like, you don't want to give up so much of your company. So why wouldn't you go with a fund that is going to give you a lot more beyond the check that they're writing and help you ride a wave to your, your hopefully only your second of three funding routes. Right.

Speaker C: VCs right now you have to be more than a check, it's you have to be. And uh, and that's because of founders. In the market that we're in today, they're not just looking for money, they're looking for unfair extension of their existing team and an investor for us. Like I, I would say if there's a team of two that we invest in, they're instantly getting a team of 10 or 11 from Fiat Growth along with the investment that'll be their entire go to marketing growth team. And there is so much value to that. And, and then I will also just even going back to what you're talking about around growth in general in that by being focused in fintech there's a huge advantage because fintech is the most complicated acquisition funnel out there. I always like jokingly say if you can get someone to digitally refinance their home loan online, like you can go sell some mugs or some T shirts or anything else like that's kinder kindergarten problems in comparison. And we take a lot of pride in not just investing in great founders, but also investing in great founders that understand the value of and the importance of distribution in the grand scheme of things of how we're going to touch the sky when it comes to billion dollar visions.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So I've got a tactical question. Uh, Vic mentioned icp. You were mentioning Personas. How do you walk founders from a go to market strategy perspective from the more strategic ICP to the more day to day Persona that they're selling to and all of these demographics, behavior, graphics, firmographics down to an actual person Persona.

Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of it is very dependent on how much data we have access to. So I would say the process of that with a series A company versus a pre seed company is wildly different for us. None of it is done and we scaled up a lot during the pandemic and I'm very thankful we're out of the pandemic because the best work is actually done in person for us. We're typically setting up like two to three day sessions with these team members and uh, we're taking PRI and then we're also setting up, we're setting up interviews with all their existing users and people that they think are their perfect users. And so the ingredients here for creating the perfect Persona, it's a mixture of qualitative and quantitative information and, and then it's also us getting a sense of what are their growth goals. If they tell us that they're a B2C company that needs to get 10,000 users versus a B2C company because it's such a high intent product, only needs 200 users to get to their next round of funding. Then we will get much more specific with a Persona or an ICP because again, if we can find one pocket that, you know, for that person that needs 500, that company needs 500 users, one pocket of people with a couple thousand in there. But the product is so perfect for them that we know that we can get 50% of the room. Then we'll build a Persona that is like down to the shoe size, down to the size of the glove. Like we know, we know what they have in their glove box. And then if it's more than that, then we need to get a little bit more broad, right? Because maybe we need to go find a pocket of these individuals that you know is in a, ah, pocket of 100,000 of them. And then it just needs to be more broad stroke. So it's very. And I think the same for B2B. Right? For B2B where the user is different because really you're trying to understand the buyer of the product, but at the same time there's champions around the buyer that can, that can push the buyer in different directions. Account based marketing has been like a pretty large thing. That's a, uh, type of marketing that's gone around for a very long time. But ultimately account based marketing is great. I'm going to try to market straight to the cfo. If I have like ramp or something, I'm going to market to the cfo, but I'm also going to market to the entire sales team because they hate doing expenses. And if they see enough information and marketing around how I can make their expenses easier, they're all going to run to the CFO and say, we need to look at this please. And then we're going to try to understand like, okay, how many Personas are around the buyer of this product. That also can influence the decision to create the perfect storm of marketing and content to make it. So maybe when that SDR does reach out to that cfo, it's not a pure cold outreach. The cfo, I've heard your name a thousand times. Fine, I'll take the call. But uh, we always think about it. In these different products is, uh, how many touches based on what we know, how many touches, meaningful touches will it take to get the meeting or whatever the most valuable event is, how many touches does it take for someone to, to fill out that credit application. How many touches does it take to get someone to finally download that app? And once we understand the amount of touches, then we try to create these surprise and delight moments to make it so those touches are the most meaningful. Sometimes it's doing 10 dinners that are super intimate and uh, we're just making sure that they're in the room and they're getting a sense of the community that we built and they're locked in. Sometimes it is truly it just has to be on enough taxi cabs in New York for you to be like, what is this shit? I gotta look it up man.

Speaker A: Uh, by the way, can we just note all the time because I just feel like the last 10 minutes has been like a masterclass for most early stage founders that are saying okay, where do we begin with regards to marketing and go to market. So you mentioned a little bit about having this process of being able to do of diligencing a startup even before you are thinking about investing in them. Number one, has that changed now that you're in fund two? Do you do less of the recruiting out of the funnel from Fiat Growth or is it about the same? And then the second part of this question is I think there are some pretty big name bcs that you and I both would have worked for way back in the day that we that uh, have been in the news for not doing a lot of diligence on founders and then investing in them. Talk a little bit about. First part is essentially does your funnel look the same, does your process of intake of potential companies look the same coming from Fiat Growth over to Fiat ventures in Fund 2? And the second piece is just describe how good your do your diligence process is. And really we know that you emphasize just based on stage team and tam trying to look into the future as much as you can. But then there's an element of what kind of diligence do you do on them? And if you could describe a couple of red flags and then a couple of green flags, that would be really helpful I think for founders out there.

Speaker C: Yeah, first and foremost I'll just touch on diligence outside of fiat is I'm a big believer that our focus remains a superpower. I can't say it enough. Typically you'll see some of the biggest mistakes made on diligence in like the broader kind of from publications and uh, highlights in the media. It's around generalists uh, that invest in everything and a lot of times you'll see a lot of generalists either attaching themselves to like big momentum rounds that are closing quickly. And just because another starlet, ah, VC's name is on the title, the assumption is incredible. Diligence was done, Let me remind everyone, every single listener, I take incredible pride and so does my team is we are stewards of money, of our investors and they pay us to do the absolute best due diligence we possibly can. Uh, I am incredibly thankful that our path to VC was building a uh, due diligence engine that was organically built into the entire system and that is Fiat Growth Fund 1. And keep in mind we've gotten around a hundred, a little over a hundred rights to invest over the last six and a half years. We've only invested in 17 of those companies. So when folks work with us and we get the right to invest, they know that like that by no means, means that we're going to lean in with an investment. But we have flagged them in that we believe they are an investable company. And now as we work with you, we'll have a deeper understanding if you are or not. By us working with these companies prior to investment, we get to, we get a front row seat to a lot of things. Founder Dynamics, what uh, do they look like in the face of a pivot moment where maybe the macro has changed and now we just need to figure out what the next move is in the product. We have an understanding of how good, of how good are they at recruiting folks, getting people to commit to their vision? How good are they at fundraising when there are many times where we've gotten these incredible growth momentum swings and we've seen some founders that could take that momentum and that data and turn it into a massive series A or seed round. And we've seen other folks struggle like in, in kind of sad ways where I'm sitting here being like, man, should I just be the founder of this company? I could go turn around like tomorrow. And the data is the data when it comes to growth. We can read that like the back of our hand. But I think that the most valuable thing that comes to our very unique structure, getting to work with them prior to investment is a lot of the soft pieces. Can you fundraise, are you adaptable? Can you hire? And, and then also what are those? Founder Dynamics are these folks that can be around, remember, like to take a company public for those big returns, minimum 10 year relationship in through some really intense moments. So is this here to last? And uh, a lot of times in those, in that process we understand that we just can't lean in here. And I have to say, again, like I used to, when I first started investing, I used to think that this is something that can be learned. But, like, your ability to be charismatic and be a storyteller and get people to rally around your vision and your business is so important. I've seen people that can't grow their business at all, even with the best people, and somehow they found ways to keep raising money. And the more money you get, the more opportunities you have to solve your problem. So at some point, you have to figure it out. But I have seen people find ways to get more money to get more Runway, to solve their problem and find product market fits simply by being an incredible storyteller. So these are all things that we find incredibly important in how we are underwriting any deal. But the difference is we don't get to see that as an instinct at a coffee or a dinner or a couple of networking events. We get to see that in the trenches while doing the work with them, and we get to see them on the other end of the table during some of the most stressful moments in the journey.

Speaker A: Yeah, I want to switch topics a little bit here. Go a little bit lighter.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker A: You're good at, uh, diligencing startups, having worked with them for a long time, really uncovering kind of all these things about them. All right, I gotta ask you. What.

Speaker C: How.

Speaker A: When did you meet your wife and how did you diligence? Like, this is the one for you.

Speaker C: Great. Uh, question. So funny. A friend of mine to. My wife's a hairstylist.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: She's a colorist in San Francisco. And a friend of mine who I'd actually been on one date with prior, and we were like, there's nothing really there. We were like, we stayed friends, and like, literally four weeks later, she's. I have the perfect girl for you. She's my hair stylist, of course me. I was like, send me a photo. So send me a photo. I was like, I'm in. Let's do it. And I was like, like, what do you want me to do? I was like, just give me your. No, just give me her number and. And give her my number and just tell her that I'll text her. And so for me, diligence is very clean. Like, the first level of diligence, if you talk about it from the standpoint of a vc, is very easy with any relationship opportunity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Can you make me laugh? And also, do you think I'm funny? Because if you don't think I'm funny? It's like, it's done. So, yeah, that was like, number one. We just laughed really hard together and we still do today. And that was so important. And important things around humor is sarcasm, not taking yourself too seriously and just having a outright goofy side to you where you just like, when no one's watching and you're two in a room, you just. Dude, people would hate us if they were around us right now. And then beyond that, it's. It was a lot of things. Family is so important to me. And she's deeply rooted in family, and that was like an easy one. The other one is just, we want to start our own family. And that was something that was. We both grew up with. We were lucky enough to both grow up with two very happy, like, parents that were happily married. And so we had a really great example of what it should be like. And that's something that we really wanted. And then there's all these little intangible things. We wanted to travel. We were like, both super curious. And I also think something's really important is we both, we both had these personalities and backgrounds to where we could teach each other a lot. I. There were things about me that, like, she never got exposure to that I could teach her about, and vice versa for me. And she's, uh, very loving and optimistic and I always tell her this way. She's. I was like, you are an innocent until proven guilty type of personality, and I'm a guilty until proven innocent type of personality. So I'd walk in the room and be like, I don't like that dude. And she'd be like, no, he's a good guy. And we, we'd always just find a way to, to, uh, to just bring each other back to the middle. And it was always like a really great dance and so a million other things like, she can dance. We both working out and staying healthy. Drinking green juice.

Speaker A: Drinking the green juice.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, we've been together for 10 years and it was like a, it was a fun time when we first met because in our mid-20s and, and so we were like getting through that, like, first stage of just let's just go party to. Let's start. And we became adults together. And I think that's like a really special journey in a relationship of how do you want to adult? And obviously we're beyond just being adults. We got a family and like, crazy responsibility. Yeah, I do. We have two kids. I have an almost three year old. And Then a seven month old. So we're in it. Yeah, we're in it.

Speaker A: Yeah, we are. Uh, look, uh, we couldn't be more into what you're doing, and both Bri and I, I think. Bri, I can speak for you a little bit here, but we're just so excited about a legacy of funds that you're building with Fiat Ventures, excited about

Speaker B: the CRM that you built. That's awesome.

Speaker A: Yeah, we. I think you sell it to, uh, a ton of ideas here, and if we had more time, I'd get into if you've succeeded in building drew GPT or not.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, that was a 20 minute project, dude. Yeah.

Speaker A: But at some point in time, we have to call it, and that time is near. Do you want to play a little game that we like to call Fidelity five Questions?

Speaker C: Bring it on.

Speaker A: Bring it on. Okay, listen, Bri and I, I don't know on what episode we started this tradition, but we. We started asking the same five questions of each of our podcast guests. We are now, thankfully, sponsored, of course, by Fidelity. This is the Fidelity five question segment at the end. We'll have many big reveals this time around because we haven't really gotten into any VC unboxing, or any presence of that nature. Let's start it off. Bri, you want to go?

Speaker B: Yes. Drew, what is your go to Karaoke?

Speaker A: Um, song, Anything.

Speaker C: Bruno Mars.

Speaker B: Oh, that's impressive.

Speaker A: Okay. Can you.

Speaker B: He's. He's quite the songbird.

Speaker A: Damn it. Now I really. Now we need to go.

Speaker C: Uh, next question, next question.

Speaker A: If you could invest in any fictional startup from a TV show, book, movie, what would it be?

Speaker C: Larry David's Spite Store.

Speaker A: Nice. Okay. All right.

Speaker B: Might be the best answer we've ever gotten.

Speaker A: It is. It is.

Speaker B: Okay, if you could do it all over again, would you be an investor or a builder? Although you are both right now.

Speaker C: Yeah, I am both. And I do both. You don't have to choose one.

Speaker A: I will accept said answer. All right, here we go. What movie best fits your vision for the future of the human race? Is it Wall E, where we've all degenerated into an obese state due to anti gravity in the metaverse? Is it Avatar, where we're dominated by this quest for resources? New worlds walking around in Avatar bodies, ET or is it the Matrix, where we're all in a simulation? Bonus points if you have a completely separate movie from those.

Speaker C: Realistically, I think we're more along the lines with the movie her, but I will say probably Avatar. I think that's my emotional answer. That seems pretty cool.

Speaker A: It does seem pretty cool. Thank you.

Speaker B: There's one last question. Yes? The one deal that you passed on that you wish you didn't.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker C: I'm too early of a fund manager to have that on the record.

Speaker A: All right. He said he was going to come back on the show, so we'll give him some time to think about it and come up with a kind of.

Speaker C: Oh, I'm sorry. I'll give you. I'll give you my. My angel investor answer instead of my fund investor. Uh, it's a company called Binny Pretty. It's a pretty serious HR tech company out of New York. They're killing it. My old founder, from a founder that I used to work with, is the CEO there. He hit me up. He was like, yo, do you want to invest? And I said no, and it was a big mistake. They're killing it. They're killing it.

Speaker A: Okay. All right. We all have them. I, uh, just say nothing to be ashamed about. Bri, I think we've got a ton of gifts lined up that.

Speaker B: Yes. So thank you for playing Fidelity 5. Why don't you show us what you won? Yes.

Speaker A: What did you win, Drew?

Speaker C: So many things. Obviously, I won my green juice, which. Which has kept me energized throughout all of this. I went to UC Berkeley, so this is my UC Berkeley bear that I'll be giving to Coco, my daughter. Um, actually, you know what? I'm gonna give this one to Blue.

Speaker A: Okay, Got it.

Speaker C: I'm gonna give Coco my kids kitchen knife because me and her, we cook together all the time. And so a lot of times she's just watching because the knives I'm using are not for her.

Speaker A: Can you honestly. Can you start a channel?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm gonna be realistic about this. I think you and Coco need to start a cooking channel.

Speaker C: Her name is Coco.

Speaker B: Her name's Coco.

Speaker A: Uh, Cooking with Coco.

Speaker C: That's it. Cooking with Coco is good. Coco. There's a lot of flexibility there. I got this beautiful Oakland hat because from Oakland shout out to Bree's background. And then I got an awesome gift card for some fresh cutlery for my own collection, since I cook so much.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: So everyone knows. There were some really thoughtful questions asked before this podcast that I answered thoughtfully. And in return, I got this surprise and delight moment of incredible gifts. So I'm appreciative of you for being really thoughtful around creating experience for a guest on a cool show. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: We are so thankful for you for sharing so many of your growth secrets and fun funding secrets. I think there's a lot of of golden nuggets in this episode for those that are looking to create their go to market, which I think we all agree is going to be the next big thing for founders to spend money on. It's no longer the engineers. They can make a CRM, um, unlovable.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: Exactly right. As we always do, the last kind of 20 seconds of the podcast are yours to shout out whoever you might want to shout out to. Say hi to Coco and the famous whatever it might be. We'd like to have a final cheers for you.

Speaker C: Love it. Shout out to my wife Michelle, my daughter Coco, my son Blue, my mom Robin, my co founder Alex Harris, my managing partner of Fiat Ventures, Marcos Fernandez, the entire Fiat growth team, entire Fiat Ventures team, and everyone that played a huge role along the way to make me the person that I am today. I'm appreciative of all of you. Family first, thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to Drinks with a vc. We are so grateful for our listener support. Feel free to reach out and add any of your questions to the comment section. If you have an idea for a guest or have some feedback, reach out to us on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: As always, don't forget to like and subscribe. Cheers.