Tim Woodall (Faber & Faber) on what the arts can learn from publishing (and vice-versa), the reality that your audience is not “everyone” (and that’s fine), and the value of brand-building

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Digital Works Podcast, a 2 - > podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. 3 - > I'm Ash, your host, and each episode we explore how people 4 - > and organizations in the cultural world and beyond are 5 - > using digital to create, connect and adapt. 6 - > And if you need a hand with your own digital work, I'm also a 7 - > consultant who helps cultural organizations make the most of 8 - > all this stuff. 9 - > Today's conversation is a chat with Tim Woodall.

10 - > Tim is the head of Direct to Consumer Marketing at 11 - > Independent Publishing House Fabre and Fabre. 12 - > Prior to that, Tim was marketing director at the Philharmonia 13 - > Orchestra, which is actually where we first met. 14 - > We spoke about the differences between the non- and for-profit 15 - > sectors and how that impacts the conditions that marketing 16 - > operates within. 17 - > We also talked about what the arts could learn from the 18 - > commercial sector and vice versa, the value of 19 - > understanding impact, the collaboration involved in 20 - > bringing a new product and service offering to life, and 21 - > lots more.

22 - > Enjoy. 23 - > Good morning, great to be here. 24 - > And you know, we've known each other for actually quite a 25 - > while. 26 - > I was thinking about it.

27 - > Our paths crossed in the culture sector when you were head of 28 - > marketing, director of marketing. 29 - > Marketing director, yeah. 30 - > Marketing director at the Philharmonia, touring orchestra 31 - > based in London, resident orchestra at the South Bank, and 32 - > we worked together quite a lot during that time. 33 - > Yep.

34 - > But one of the reasons I sort of got in touch and asked you to 35 - > come on is because you now don't work in the sort of performing 36 - > arts sector, you work in publishing, you work in favour 37 - > and favour. 38 - > And I'm fascinated to sort of compare and contrast those 39 - > worlds. 40 - > Yep. 41 - > But what does the Tim Woodall story look like?

42 - > You know, our past crossed in performing arts, you're now in 43 - > publishing. 44 - > Yeah. 45 - > What does that journey look like? 46 - > unknown: Yeah.

47 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, it's been an interesting one for me, that's 48 - > for sure. 49 - > My background is in music, in classical music. 50 - > I studied music at university. 51 - > I left university wanting to work in the music business.

52 - > I guess I wanted to work at a record label at a time when that 53 - > was terribly glamorous. 54 - > I ended up at a starter job at an artist management agency 55 - > where I worked for seven years. 56 - > And I started in a marketing role there, basically by chance, 57 - > as you do when you're 22. 58 - > Spent my 20s thinking about what I wanted to do long term.

59 - > I was thinking about journalism at one point. 60 - > I did a lot of freelance writing for magazines as a thriving 61 - > scene at the time. 62 - > But I enjoyed marketing, and really that switched to 63 - > something I was thinking about seriously when I moved to the 64 - > Philomonia where we met. 65 - > So that was ahead of sales and marketing role, and then I 66 - > became marketing director there.

67 - > I was at the Philomonia for six years from 2015. 68 - > I really, really loved that job. 69 - > I loved that orchestra. 70 - > I got a huge amount out of it.

71 - > But at the same time, I thought that my next role needed to not 72 - > be in classical music. 73 - > I wanted to try something else. 74 - > I always thought it would be in the arts and heritage sector. 75 - > I was looking at museums and galleries and theatres.

76 - > I love working with audiences. 77 - > But then this small thing called the pandemic happened. 78 - > And I think I speak for quite a few people when I say working at 79 - > a cultural organization during the pandemic was pretty intense. 80 - > We shut down the concert hall program first.

81 - > We started up a digital concert program, all while working 82 - > remotely, and there was a lot of understandable anxiety right 83 - > across the organization about what was going to happen. 84 - > And it definitely made my reserves run low in terms of 85 - > energy. 86 - > So in 2021, I was looking for a break and a change, and I sort 87 - > of broadened my focus to look at a like more commercial sectors. 88 - > I always wanted to keep it within the creative world.

89 - > And I was particularly interested in the philomonia 90 - > about how the orchestra engaged with audiences directly. 91 - > You know, a lot of what orchestras do, especially London 92 - > orchestras, is via the venues they work in. 93 - > But the philonia, as you mentioned at the top, was also a 94 - > touring orchestra. 95 - > So really I wanted to forge direct relationships with 96 - > audiences.

97 - > And then I saw the role at Faber, which was a new role. 98 - > It was head of e-commerce. 99 - > That's the role I was hired for. 100 - > And it was all about building direct relationships with 101 - > readers.

102 - > And I thought, oh, okay, that's transferable. 103 - > Let's go for that. 104 - > And that's the role I got. 105 - > SPEAKER_00: Amazing.

106 - > And what would you say the differences and similarities are 107 - > between, you know, performing arts and then working at an 108 - > independent publishing house? 109 - > You know, on day one, did it feel familiar, or were you like, 110 - > oh, okay, this is quite different? 111 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I started during lockdown. 112 - > So new role, new sector remotely.

113 - > I didn't have a clue what was going on. 114 - > It was brilliant and interesting. 115 - > And I think that's one of the things I've enjoyed about it. 116 - > That I don't want to say I'm an insider in classical music, but 117 - > that's been my trajectory and my background.

118 - > And you know, I know the repertoire, I know the you know 119 - > who the artists are, and obviously my book world 120 - > knowledge was pretty low. 121 - > So actually discovering all that anew and playing a slight kind 122 - > of outsider role is something I've really enjoyed. 123 - > They are very different places to work. 124 - > I think the sectors are very, very different, but they are, as 125 - > you said, adjacent.

126 - > You know, I'm working on the literary end of publishing. 127 - > You know, there are publishing organizations that are publicly 128 - > funded, for example. 129 - > Faber is a commercial business. 130 - > But I was thinking on the way here about what makes arts 131 - > marketing, arts marketing.

132 - > I came up with two distinctive features, I guess. 133 - > Let me test these on you. 134 - > The first is that in a commercial organization, if you 135 - > launch a lot a line of products, say 10 products, and two do 136 - > really well and six do okay and and two bomb, you let the two 137 - > that bomb go. 138 - > And as we know, that's not the case in the arts.

139 - > So I think that is a fundamental difference in terms of what 140 - > makes arts marketing, arts marketing. 141 - > And I guess the other one is that with sort of complex 142 - > multi-level cultural organizations where funding is 143 - > coming from different sources and there's lots of different 144 - > stakeholders to deliver for, it can pull you in odd directions 145 - > in terms of what you're doing with marketing and audiences. 146 - > And in a way, working for a for-profit company is much 147 - > simpler from a marketing point of view.

148 - > SPEAKER_00: I guess that sort of leads me on to the next thing I 149 - > wanted to ask about, which is, you know, in one of the 150 - > conversations we had prior to today, you mentioned that 151 - > priorities are much clearer in your current rollout favour. 152 - > And that feels like, as you've just sort of alluded to, 153 - > something that is less consistently present in the 154 - > performing arts and the sort of cultural world for a variety of 155 - > good and also perhaps less convincing reasons.

156 - > Obviously, the sort of profit motive is, I would imagine, 157 - > quite clarifying in setting priorities. 158 - > But are there any other structures, practices, cultural 159 - > things you've noticed that help keep everyone in your current 160 - > role, pointing in the same direction, understanding what's 161 - > most important? 162 - > Because so many of the conversations I have with people 163 - > working in the cultural sector sort of circle around this issue 164 - > of, you know, you ask 10 different people, they will each 165 - > have a completely different hierarchy of priorities.

166 - > We're not clear about how the thing that the leadership is 167 - > saying is important actually relates to my work. 168 - > And I'm just wondering what other than profit there might be 169 - > from a more commercial organization that cultural 170 - > organizations could perhaps take inspiration from. 171 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good question. 172 - > I think it's an interesting one because we only work in the 173 - > organizations that we work in, and we've got fairly limited 174 - > examples to draw from in that case.

175 - > I think the word that springs to mind is leaner. 176 - > I think that in some ways arts organizations are very lean. 177 - > Everyone's got way too much work and things are stressful. 178 - > But in another way, looked at from another angle, sometimes 179 - > things can look a bit again.

180 - > I don't want to say flabby, but there's like, why is this there? 181 - > And I guess just it's really hard in the market. 182 - > And you know, I guess I'm four years into publishing, but I 183 - > don't know the that world that well yet. 184 - > But you know, I think it's fair to say that for publishing, you 185 - > know, making a profit publishing book is not easy, and it is a 186 - > very, very competitive marketplace.

187 - > And I guess just by its nature in the cultural sector, it is a 188 - > competitive marketplace in one sense, but in another in another 189 - > sense, it isn't. 190 - > And that's good, that's how we want things to be. 191 - > This is not a very coherent answer, but I think that's the 192 - > thing that it's easy to struggle with, you know. 193 - > Like going back to you know, my sort of my expertise in reaching 194 - > and engaging audiences, there are things that arcs 195 - > organizations do and say, I'm sure I was guilty of this, like 196 - > what we do is for everyone, you know, that sort of thing.

197 - > I can tell you it's not. 198 - > I had a friend group from university went on a WhatsApp 199 - > group, and some of them are classical music people and some 200 - > aren't. 201 - > And we were talking years ago, you know, messaging about some 202 - > concert we were going to, and one of our friends who, you 203 - > know, who's not into that said, Take this to another chat, 204 - > people. 205 - > And one of my friends replied and said, Oh, yeah, you might 206 - > enjoy it one day.

207 - > And he said, I can tell you categorically, absolutely not. 208 - > And that's absolutely fine. 209 - > You know, there's another example of that is like there's 210 - > this great New Yorker cartoon where um it's like a cocktail 211 - > party, and person A says to person B, What do you do? 212 - > And person B says, I do great work taking the arts to people 213 - > who don't want the arts.

214 - > And I think that's brilliant, and I love doing that, but it 215 - > does set up some weird ways of doing things. 216 - > I guess the one thing to answer your question a bit more 217 - > clearly, what I found interesting about working in 218 - > publishing is that everyone in the organization slots into the 219 - > publishing process at a different point. 220 - > So if you imagine it as a line, at the beginning of the line, 221 - > you have the editor buying the book, and at the end of the 222 - > line, you have the book sold and in the customer's hands, and in 223 - > between there's editing, there's production, there's design, 224 - > there's marketing and publicity, and you know, lots of other kind 225 - > of pieces of expertise being slotted in.

226 - > And I think that it's pretty clear who's doing what for whom. 227 - > And I think one of the challenges you get in the arts 228 - > is that there's many more blurred lines. 229 - > So a classic example is like does our membership program sit 230 - > with the marketing team or does it sit with the development 231 - > team? 232 - > Or is the marketing director and the development director 233 - > fighting over that?

234 - > You know, going back to the previous example, so you're 235 - > doing um a learning project in a new city and the learning team 236 - > has to deliver it, the marketing team has to engage harder to 237 - > reach audiences. 238 - > Now, unless those two teams work together really strongly, that's 239 - > not going to happen. 240 - > But it can get a bit territorial, it can get a bit 241 - > difficult. 242 - > And I was really lucky at the Philemonia to work with you know 243 - > really, really brilliant experts in the different fields and we 244 - > work together really well, but it's not always that way.

245 - > SPEAKER_00: It feels like you've described there something that 246 - > I've noticed more of a conversation starting to happen 247 - > around, it feels like in 2025. 248 - > Namely, that the sort of structures, the structure of a 249 - > traditional performing arts organization, let's say, is 250 - > almost designed against or in opposition to how successful 251 - > teams work in 2025, which is interdisciplinary, which is 252 - > collaborative, which is focusing around the audience or user or 253 - > customer needs and sort of working back from there.

254 - > And you know, the sort of membership example you shared 255 - > there, I think is an excellent one because you know ultimately 256 - > that's about engaging audiences, and particular audiences want a 257 - > different type of relationship with you, whether that's to 258 - > attend shows or to donate money to you, that's sort of an 259 - > organization priority rather than an individual's priority. 260 - > And so therefore, I my question is at Fabre, sort of 261 - > structurally, does the organization exist in a 262 - > different way, or is it still quite, you know, there's a 263 - > marketing department and there's an editorial department, and 264 - > there's a well, I don't know how a publishing house is set up, 265 - > but or do you find yourself more often in the room or working on 266 - > projects with lots of different types of people with different 267 - > disciplines?

268 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the answer is both. 269 - > There are you know clear roles that departments or teams within 270 - > the organization play, but pulling off a piece of 271 - > publishing will require a lot of different people to work 272 - > together. 273 - > It's innately collaborative. 274 - > And I think this is the this will be the same at many 275 - > publishing houses, literature organizations.

276 - > It's very similar. 277 - > You know, there is a the decision to publish a book, is 278 - > you know, it's not so far away from programming a show, and the 279 - > decision that's made how that process unfolds, you know, is 280 - > not a million miles away at all. 281 - > I think that so much of what works brilliantly in the arts is 282 - > where people are collaborating together. 283 - > There are lots of people who used to do the roles I used to 284 - > do where you're in the room when you're talking about 285 - > programming, and something I was always trying to do was shift 286 - > the conversation or the question from will this sell to who's 287 - > this for?

288 - > I still think the people programming their relationship 289 - > with the artists, I still think that's something that's 290 - > independent. 291 - > It's just really good to have that seat at the table and to, 292 - > you know, pass your expertise back and say, you know, I think 293 - > the audience for this is this, or are you sure you want to put 294 - > this piece in there because that's going to affect the 295 - > bottom line on this event? 296 - > And then that's, you know, how it all balances, I guess.

297 - > SPEAKER_00: That maybe links nicely into the next thing I 298 - > wanted to ask you about. 299 - > Because as you've mentioned already, making money from 300 - > selling books isn't easy. 301 - > You know, it's not like you've gone into a high margin, easy 302 - > money sector from the arts. 303 - > So there's an element of trying to do a lot and make a big 304 - > impact with relatively limited resources in both spaces.

305 - > But does that sort of exist? 306 - > You sort of alluded to the fact it might exist differently 307 - > because, as you've said, in sort of traditional cultural sector, 308 - > there's a lot of agendas that are needing to be met from 309 - > funders, from you know, charitable objectives, from 310 - > artistic objectives, as well as commercial needs. 311 - > Is it simply a case that there are fewer agendas that you're 312 - > needing to serve in the publishing world? 313 - > Or is it that resources are allocated more thoughtfully or 314 - > effectively?

315 - > I think it's a bit of both of that. 316 - > SPEAKER_01: I think there's an ultimate simpler aim. 317 - > But, you know, even a publishing house has, you know, writers 318 - > that has a board, you know, there are still multiple 319 - > stakeholders. 320 - > I guess I come back to that word leaner again.

321 - > I think it's easier to be leaner at a commercial company. 322 - > And I think there's a sort of transparency, I guess, we know 323 - > within a publishing house as to what works and what doesn't, and 324 - > it's all very sort of transparent. 325 - > Whereas I think you know, in the arts world, it's not always. 326 - > And it's tricky because sometimes you put on great work 327 - > and it loses you an awful lot of money.

328 - > But even the way I phrase that, it loses you. 329 - > I don't think that's the right way of saying it, because you 330 - > know, that's an investment in the artistic product of the 331 - > house, but it can lose an awful lot of money. 332 - > You know, if if I was ever very rich and I wanted to very 333 - > quickly get rid of some money, I'd stage some opera, I'd stage, 334 - > you know, a concert season. 335 - > Like that's a surefire way.

336 - > And I think that does set up some defensiveness, it sets up 337 - > some, you know, to what extent, how much do we tell this group 338 - > about that? 339 - > There's a it's a sort of natural politics, I guess, that emerge 340 - > out of that, which I think you need really great leadership to 341 - > overcome and also like set a vision and take people with you. 342 - > And I think there are some amazing leaders in the arts and 343 - > culture sector, and I think that those that do well take everyone 344 - > along with them.

345 - > I think that's really hard where you've got people from very 346 - > different walks of life. 347 - > If you take an average board in the culture sector and then, you 348 - > know, the group of artist practitioners, there's some very 349 - > different views there about what's important and why. 350 - > I wouldn't relish that role, to be honest. 351 - > SPEAKER_00: And again, it feels like the idea of clarity, 352 - > therefore, is is super important.

353 - > You know, even if you have 20 key objectives, it requires some 354 - > really clear communication. 355 - > You shouldn't have 20 key objects. 356 - > No, of course, you should absolutely shouldn't. 357 - > But many organizations probably do.

358 - > You know, if they wrote down at any given moment what are the 359 - > most important things to us, and you've got a leadership team to 360 - > fill that in, it probably wouldn't be a particularly short 361 - > list. 362 - > SPEAKER_01: No, and that's and that is a that is a massive, 363 - > massive problem. 364 - > So, say if you take the London Orchestral world, which I know 365 - > quite well, you know, one of your three objectives would 366 - > definitely, definitely be to provide enough high-quality work 367 - > for the players of that orchestra so then you can retain 368 - > and recruit, you know, really good players.

369 - > You know, that's a really, really obvious one of three. 370 - > And then the others, you know, less sure on, but I doubt that 371 - > that's leading the line in arts council documents, for example. 372 - > But it's really, really important because we have 373 - > freelance orchestras and you know, that's no work, you know, 374 - > no orchestra, basically. 375 - > So yeah, I think there are often 20 plus, you know, bullet 376 - > points.

377 - > I remember those documents, and it's really hard to unpick from 378 - > that. 379 - > It really is. 380 - > SPEAKER_00: And maybe in that mix of sort of everything 381 - > shouting for attention is this thing that often seems to come 382 - > up whenever I'm talking with communications or marketing 383 - > people working, well, in in lots of sectors, but particularly in 384 - > in the arts and culture sector, is this tension between sort of 385 - > brand building and just needing to sell tickets to the show that 386 - > hasn't sold next week.

387 - > And you know, you've got two people in your marketing team, 388 - > and do you do the 10-year play or the the 10-day play? 389 - > And I mean, I'd be fascinated to hear your perspective on that in 390 - > a cultural context, but also how that plays out at Fabre, because 391 - > you know, I've heard of Fabre, I have a sort of feeling of what 392 - > favour and favour is, but do they focus much on that brand 393 - > building piece, or is it very much about the books? 394 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really good question.

395 - > And I the first thing I'd say is that tension is everywhere, it's 396 - > definitely not just in the cultural sector. 397 - > I think what makes it particularly acute in the 398 - > cultural sector is that empty hall syndrome. 399 - > Like we can't have the empty hall. 400 - > That's a real challenge.

401 - > At Faber, I work in the direct to consumer and members team. 402 - > So we are adjacent to the marketing team, and we have a 403 - > marketing and brand director, and the marketing team, you 404 - > know, deliver amazing book campaigns. 405 - > So, in a way, what my team are doing is you know building uh an 406 - > audience for Faber, our events, our books, our products over 407 - > time. 408 - > There's sort of a natural delineation, I you know, I would 409 - > say.

410 - > I think the challenge you outline is something that's 411 - > talked a lot about in kind of marketing circles generally. 412 - > I don't want to get into jargon, but there's you know the long 413 - > and the short of it? 414 - > SPEAKER_00: Yes. 415 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so 60% roughly of your marketing resource 416 - > should go towards long-term brown building and 40% to 417 - > shorter-term sales activation, or you know, thereabouts, 418 - > different for different, you know, different startups to an 419 - > established brand, and you know, you get lots of things like 420 - > Airbnb, did this big pivot where they went from like high-end 421 - > performance, you know, marketing, which is like digital 422 - > advertising led, to like brand advertising, and they won big on 423 - > that, you know.

424 - > It is a constant tension. 425 - > But I think in terms of the performing arts and I guess the 426 - > arts world more widely, I think you have to find a way as much 427 - > as possible to do both at the same time. 428 - > The two types of marketing of brand and performance, they're 429 - > not necessarily mutually exclusive, really, in an arts 430 - > context. 431 - > The way I would do that is I would rely on so at the 432 - > Philemonia, for example, we tended to do one big series a 433 - > year at the Festival Hall, you know, multiple concerts around a 434 - > big theme, and it was that moment we would do a tube 435 - > campaign and we would do a lot of more sort of, I guess, 436 - > brand-led activity.

437 - > Now, I wouldn't assume that that would drive a return 438 - > specifically for that series, but it would help. 439 - > It would help attract the audiences we were targeting who 440 - > were more in the market for kind of special events, you know, 441 - > like you know, that that type of very like on it audience 442 - > members, as opposed to sort of more sort of traditional 730 443 - > classical audiences. 444 - > Um, so you sort of try and get both out of the same hit.

445 - > What we were never going to do at the Philemonia was pick a 446 - > time of year. 447 - > So in the book world, it's Christmas, pick a time of year 448 - > where you run a brand campaign in and of itself, as a big 449 - > corporate brand would do, because it would be really, 450 - > really hard to justify that in front of the board. 451 - > So I think that's how I would slice it. 452 - > I think one of the challenges, though, and I think this applies 453 - > again across the board, is like it's tempting to run meta ads 454 - > for everything because you can measure the clicks and you can 455 - > show the chief executive, and you can you can show, you can 456 - > demonstrate your work.

457 - > And this is like a massive bugbear of mine that we need to 458 - > be on all the channels all the time, we need to put 50% of our 459 - > whatever into meta ads. 460 - > Do you? 461 - > I don't think you do. 462 - > There's often better ways of spending your money that have a 463 - > longer term benefit, but I think it's a problem because you know, 464 - > even you know, in big companies, CFOs will say to the marketing 465 - > director, you know, show me the money, show me what activity you 466 - > did and what it led to.

467 - > And short-termism in business or you know, uh selling anything, I 468 - > think is wrong-headed. 469 - > I think you should give your marketers a good few years to 470 - > show what they can do. 471 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it comes back to that question you said 472 - > you were often trying to shift the conversation towards 473 - > earlier, which was who is this for? 474 - > Because I think if you have a really clear and good answer to 475 - > that, then you don't need to be on all the channels because you 476 - > will be able to build a really deep understanding of who this 477 - > is for and be present in the spaces and places that they are 478 - > finding out about things.

479 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 480 - > I think the challenge, especially in a city like 481 - > London, is that you have a lot of different organizations doing 482 - > a lot of similar things, and without the market there to 483 - > breathe down your necks, and again, I don't want that for the 484 - > arts, it does sometimes lead to a lack of distinctiveness. 485 - > And distinctiveness, I think, is a big problem because if you're 486 - > not distinctive, it's very hard to sort of position a brand in 487 - > any way, and I think that pushes you much more towards 488 - > performance marketing anyway, because it's hard to tell a 489 - > story about your organization, or if you're doing exactly the 490 - > same stuff as two or three other galleries or theatres.

491 - > I think that is a real challenge, and that's a 492 - > challenge that's way bigger than any marketing team. 493 - > It's an organizational challenge. 494 - > SPEAKER_00: And again, it feels like it comes back to examples 495 - > of organizations saying this is for everyone. 496 - > You know, if we make this thing for everyone, it's like, well, 497 - > no, no, you don't, because everyone is not a market, and 498 - > specifically you might have your core audience that you're 499 - > thinking about, and then the one or two degrees away from that 500 - > who are people that are likely that you might be able to 501 - > engage, and it feels like a more ruthless is the wrong word, a 502 - > more honest conversation about that stuff feels like in an 503 - > increasingly constrained and uncertain funding environment, 504 - > audience environment, commercial environment is a conversation 505 - > more cultural organizations should be having.

506 - > I mean, maybe I'm being unfair and they are having it, but it 507 - > doesn't feel like that level of honesty is yet woven through 508 - > everything cultural organizations are thinking 509 - > about. 510 - > SPEAKER_01: If I think in London, think about the National 511 - > Theatre and the Opera House and the level of work they do and 512 - > the reach that they have. 513 - > I'm sure they're not, you know, they're probably tricky 514 - > organizations to work for and have lots of challenges, but I 515 - > do see a lot of great, great work.

516 - > And I think maybe that within those organizations there is a 517 - > very clear picture of who their audience is, and it may not 518 - > always render kind of externally, as it were. 519 - > I think thinking about audiences is it's a weak link. 520 - > I think it's almost like certainly when I was early in my 521 - > career, you know, to think about the audience is a bit of a sort 522 - > of dirty word, almost like no, no, no, like we do art, you 523 - > know. 524 - > Whereas I think we all know the audience plays a massive impact 525 - > on the delivery of the artistic experience, right?

526 - > And I think that we should absolutely be thinking about it. 527 - > SPEAKER_00: And maybe uh my next question is might feel like a 528 - > bit of a pivot, but I don't think it is as much as it may 529 - > initially seem. 530 - > So I think one of the things that you sort of shared 531 - > somewhere probably on LinkedIn that I spotted, and I was like, 532 - > oh, that's interesting, I do need to talk to Tim about that, 533 - > is the Faber and Faber poetry subscription, which is a new 534 - > product, uh service offering.

535 - > I don't know the right language that you would use, but it felt, 536 - > you know, when I had a look at it, it felt really thoughtfully 537 - > executed. 538 - > You know, there was a really nice digital layer to it. 539 - > It felt like the way in which you were communicating value and 540 - > flexibility to potential subscribers was coming from a 541 - > place of what seemed like quite significant insight. 542 - > I know you said this is sort of your baby, so I'd love to hear 543 - > more about it.

544 - > You know, what is it, where did it come from, and I guess what 545 - > role did being more audience-centric play in its 546 - > inception and how it is ultimately sort of how it exists 547 - > in the world? 548 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure. 549 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you. 550 - > SPEAKER_01: So Faber is famous for poetry.

551 - > T. 552 - > S. 553 - > Eliot was Faber's first poetry editor and was pushing a hundred 554 - > years of publishing poetry. 555 - > So it's an absolutely central part of Faber's story and what 556 - > it is.

557 - > And there's an amazing poetry editorial publishing team at 558 - > Faber. 559 - > I think the subscriptions conversation had been around for 560 - > a while. 561 - > In the book world, there are a huge number of different models 562 - > of subscription. 563 - > Certainly, some years ago, book boxes became very popular, sort 564 - > of, you know, boxes you receive every three months with a sort 565 - > of beautifully created list of books.

566 - > And yeah, there are a real kind of wide variety of different 567 - > models. 568 - > And I think we were thinking Faber has a members program, 569 - > we've got a free members program, which is brilliant, it 570 - > delivers events and you know, content and special editions and 571 - > things like that for our members. 572 - > And we we were we're basically thinking about you know how can 573 - > we add more value for readers, and given that we had, you know, 574 - > we've got good digital infrastructure, um, subscription 575 - > seemed an obvious way to go.

576 - > Um, but then it's sort of how, what, where, why, when. 577 - > And really what we've launched, which launched in February, is 578 - > the start, really, I hope. 579 - > And it really grew out of we knew we wanted to start with the 580 - > poetry because of the heritage, and it was really, you know, 581 - > what can we deliver people for readers and and you know, what 582 - > are they looking for? 583 - > So we did some surveying, we asked people what sort of, you 584 - > know, not pain points, but you know, what are the things that 585 - > would be useful for them?

586 - > And what came back quite clearly was flexibility, genre choice, 587 - > and savings on the value of books, which you know, heavy 588 - > discounting is not something we do, but something that we did 589 - > alight upon is that you know people don't love paying 590 - > shipping fees, for example. 591 - > We all know that. 592 - > And so those were the three key things that came back from the 593 - > conversations we had and the surveying we did. 594 - > And we aim to build a program off the back of that, which was 595 - > actually way more challenging than it sounds, because for one, 596 - > flexibility is quite tricky to deliver.

597 - > And I think we've done it, and we're definitely going to 598 - > improve it. 599 - > But you know, when we're working with our agency and you know, 600 - > we've got multiple packages, you know, being able to pause a 601 - > subscription, a whole bunch of different delivery elements that 602 - > were causing headaches. 603 - > It was really tempting to say, okay, well, let's leave the 604 - > flexibility. 605 - > We'll just have fixed subscriptions and focus on the 606 - > other two key areas.

607 - > I'm really glad we didn't because people do seem to love 608 - > it. 609 - > So you can subscribe for yourself and cancel at any time. 610 - > You can do a gift subscription for 12 months and pay up front, 611 - > or you can pay every month. 612 - > In total, there's about seven or eight different options, which 613 - > actually works technically, which is brilliant.

614 - > Um, but also the next step on from that is you know 615 - > communicating that you know, flexibility can become word 616 - > salad. 617 - > So really, really focusing on UX and UI, which our agency did a 618 - > great job with, but also the user journey through the 619 - > process. 620 - > And again, we're still improving that. 621 - > You know, it's it was not it's not perfect, but the process of 622 - > signing up confirmation emails, we send everyone a welcome pack, 623 - > which again I think has worked really well.

624 - > There's a monthly email from the editor about the book you're 625 - > going to receive that month. 626 - > So there's quite a lot of like around it that I'm hoping over 627 - > time will mean that we grow and grow. 628 - > And I think other than the kind of audience research, I think 629 - > the other main thing I try to draw from was subscription 630 - > programs. 631 - > Are outside of the books world.

632 - > So the ones I looked at particularly hard were coffee 633 - > subscriptions. 634 - > You can choose how often you know you get your coffee 635 - > delivered. 636 - > I go with packed coffee, who are brilliant. 637 - > But in a way, we were trying to mimic that.

638 - > So it's not book boxes, it's a book a month. 639 - > It lands on your doorstep. 640 - > It's easy. 641 - > You often get the book publicational just ahead of.

642 - > And there's supporting materials and it sort of adding all that 643 - > together seems to have landed for people, which we're 644 - > delighted with. 645 - > SPEAKER_00: And it seems like there's a bunch of stealable 646 - > ideas in there. 647 - > You know, that first idea of really understanding what value 648 - > looks and feels like for the people that this is for. 649 - > So being clear about who it's for, and then being clear about 650 - > what they perceive as valuable, and understanding how you could 651 - > deliver against that.

652 - > You know, you can't do heavy discountings, but you can take 653 - > away shipping fees. 654 - > So you can deliver on that like feeling of value for money. 655 - > And looking outside of your immediate competition or sector 656 - > to try and understand what good actually looks like again feels 657 - > important and feels like something that, you know, the 658 - > best digital cultural projects I've worked on are the ones 659 - > where the people I was working with were very comfortable 660 - > looking wherever for inspiration and examples of good practice.

661 - > And they weren't just looking at the theatre down the road or the 662 - > sort of biggest national competitor in their type of 663 - > organization. 664 - > And third was something that you mentioned is around that whole, 665 - > I mean, experience design really and sort of service design from 666 - > the moment someone finds out about it to the moment the book 667 - > is in their hands. 668 - > It feels like you've been quite thoughtful about ensuring A, 669 - > that's high quality, and B, that you're sort of layering value.

670 - > You know, you mentioned emails from the editor that are 671 - > tailored to the thing they're going to get, you know, welcome 672 - > packs, all of these moments where someone is quite open to 673 - > being surprised and delighted, and you can deliver something 674 - > that works in that moment. 675 - > That feels like not low-hanging fruit, but it's an obvious thing 676 - > that more cultural organizations, it feels like 677 - > they could be leaning to that. 678 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love the phrase layering value.

679 - > I think that's not something I haven't thought of, and I'll 680 - > steal. 681 - > That's really nice. 682 - > And I think that the kind of delivery of that, the idea, 683 - > something I've been thinking a lot about is like this mixture 684 - > between see, we got through all this time, we haven't said the 685 - > word AI yet. 686 - > It's the layering of automation together with personalization.

687 - > So it's sort of actual human interaction. 688 - > So with this, the email that you get, you know, is specially 689 - > prepared, it's beautifully written, and there's nothing 690 - > automated at all. 691 - > Obviously, the people it's sent to, you know, there is 692 - > automation there. 693 - > And there is a signed letter in the welcome pack.

694 - > You know, there's there's human touches, but then as much as 695 - > possible underneath that, the actual subscription renewals, 696 - > the process wants to you want it to be as automated as reliably 697 - > as possible. 698 - > Whereas I think often you get stuck somewhere in the middle 699 - > where you're spending hours doing things that could be 700 - > automated and then the creative stuff's not layered on top. 701 - > And I think that's really hard, but I think it is important.

702 - > SPEAKER_00: And another thing that you've I guess you didn't 703 - > speak to directly, but you mentioned is this idea that you 704 - > said you have quite good digital infrastructure. 705 - > And you know, I've worked with a few publishing news media 706 - > organizations, and the quality of their internal stuff 707 - > digitally varies massively. 708 - > But it sounds like at Fabre it's quite a mature environment when 709 - > it comes to digital stuff and thinking about products and 710 - > thinking about infrastructure and being able to deliver to 711 - > customers, audiences without all of the technology being a real 712 - > bottleneck.

713 - > Is that fair? 714 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's fair. 715 - > I think we're improving all the time. 716 - > I think the challenges we have is often with integrations, and 717 - > you can work on one integration and get it perfectly, and then 718 - > others fall off, as you know.

719 - > And I think it's about getting the right number of integrations 720 - > and not overdoing it and gradually building over time. 721 - > And I think that is that sense of I think people still think 722 - > you know, you work on a big digital project, you know, big 723 - > website development or something, and then you finish 724 - > and then it's over, and that doesn't exist, that isn't a 725 - > thing. 726 - > It's about continuous improvement and then maybe a 727 - > bigger project to tie it all together.

728 - > So yeah, I think integrations are the key. 729 - > SPEAKER_00: And that idea of continuous improvement as well, 730 - > you'd sort of said that with the Poetry subscription, that's 731 - > something you're looking to continually improve. 732 - > And I mean, I'm guessing you mentioned an agency as well. 733 - > So it sounds like you've had some support from an external 734 - > agency.

735 - > Oh, yeah, we have a web agency who are working on our site and 736 - > our infrastructure, yeah, who I work with very closely. 737 - > And is is that sort of alongside an in-house team or is it mostly 738 - > external support that are working with people? 739 - > SPEAKER_01: We're quite lean internally. 740 - > We have a lot of different suppliers and partners in 741 - > different areas, and we have, you know, probably a level of 742 - > in-house expertise that, you know, an arts and culture 743 - > organization would have.

744 - > You know, there's a fair amount of technical knowledge 745 - > internally, but then we're working with external partners a 746 - > lot. 747 - > Yeah. 748 - > SPEAKER_00: The sign on the wall says we have nine minutes left. 749 - > So, you know, I I'd love to sort of we've talked a lot about 750 - > looking back and looking at what you're currently working on.

751 - > What's coming down the track that you're intrigued by or 752 - > excited about, but both sort of in your day job, but maybe also 753 - > more generally? 754 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a huge amount of it's such a cliche. 755 - > There's a huge amount, there's a huge amount of change. 756 - > I mean, there really is a huge amount of change coming down the 757 - > track.

758 - > I think as always, the fundamentals of what it means to 759 - > reach an audience or do marketing is not going to 760 - > change. 761 - > And the fact that people are going to want cultural 762 - > experiences in their lives and to read great books, which are 763 - > the sort of two sides of the, you know, my working world. 764 - > But the speed of change we've seen in the last 20 years in the 765 - > digital age is going to accelerate and change more 766 - > quickly.

767 - > And I think that can feel a bit overwhelming, but I think that's 768 - > going to unlock a lot of you know opportunities. 769 - > So I think it's trying to stay on the front foot of that 770 - > change. 771 - > I mean, just for example, in the last, you know, four to five 772 - > months, Google's introduced AI overviews, as we all have all 773 - > have seen. 774 - > And that has had an enormous impact on web traffic.

775 - > And if you work in this space, you need to understand that. 776 - > You don't know where it's going, but you need to understand why 777 - > and what that means. 778 - > So there's lots of short-term things that are going to change 779 - > really rapidly, but then there's going to be longer-term 780 - > opportunities to do great work. 781 - > And I'm definitely looking forward to that.

782 - > You know, it doesn't fill me with dread or anything. 783 - > I mean, I'll come back in five years and my job will be done by 784 - > AI, maybe, but I th I I somehow doubt that at this stage. 785 - > I mean, that's what I'm definitely looking forward to. 786 - > I think, you know, in a longer sort of life career arc, I don't 787 - > know where I'm going.

788 - > None of us do, Tim. 789 - > Anyone that says it has a five-year plan is a liar. 790 - > Yeah, and that's weird having a five-year plan. 791 - > I think that I quite like the sort of portfolio career idea.

792 - > It's a bit of a pretentious phrase, but I like having moved 793 - > around a bit and done different things. 794 - > Now I'm a bit older. 795 - > You know, I've got a clearer idea of what I don't want to do 796 - > as much as what I do want to do. 797 - > I don't want to run an organization.

798 - > Just doesn't appeal to me. 799 - > But I'd like to be, I don't know, whatever, in the future. 800 - > But uh, I think I will stick, you know, working with audiences 801 - > in the cultural sector creative organization space. 802 - > And that's sort of my brief to myself.

803 - > And, you know, who knows where that's going, but it's going to 804 - > be interesting for sure. 805 - > SPEAKER_00: And that feels like a hopeful and curious note to 806 - > end on. 807 - > Thank you so much for your time this morning, Tim. 808 - > Thanks for having me.

809 - > Thanks for listening. 810 - > If you enjoyed this conversation and want to hear more, you can 811 - > find all episodes of the podcast on thedigital.works. 812 - > And if your organization needs help making sense of digital, 813 - > you can get in touch with me via my website at ashman.

co. 814 - > That's man with two ends. 815 - > See you next time.