489. Building Collaboration Across Borders and Waterways, with Sally Berry

Speaker A: You have arrived at Destination on the Left, a show where destination marketers, accommodations, attractions, tour operators, travel agents and industry consultants can learn from each other and grow stronger together. I am Nicole Mahoney and I have had the pleasure of hosting this show since 2016. My team and I believe that community collaboration and partnerships are essential for the growth and prosperity of every organization in the travel, tourism and hospitality industry. That is why we have been dedicated to bringing you this show for so many years. Our listeners and guests make up a community that believes we are stronger together and we champion tourism and support economic growth because we know that tourism is critical to economic development and and makes or breaks entire regions. Thank you for tuning in. Let's get to the show. Hello listeners and welcome to this week's episode where we connect with Sally Berry, tourism strategist, educator and longtime champion of the travel and tourism industry. In our conversation, Sally takes us inside a part of the industry that many destinations are still learning how to navigate, group travel, international visitation and the growing Great Lakes cruise market. She explains why the Great Lakes offer such a compelling opportunity, bringing together eight states and two Canadian provinces around one of the world's most remarkable freshwater resources. She explains that this opportunity isn't just about attracting ships, it is about helping visitors discover port communities, creating experiences that encourage return trips, and making sure local local tourism businesses understand how they can participate. We talk about how Great Lakes cruising differs from a traditional ocean cruise. The ships are smaller, the experiences are more intimate, and the destination itself plays a much bigger role in the journey. Sally shares why collaboration across states, provinces, attractions, DMOs and regional organizations is essential. I especially appreciated her reminder that partners aren't sharing customers, they're sharing a destination. Everyone may not get a piece of every pie, but when the region works together, the opportunity becomes much larger for all. We also discuss sustainability and how the Great Lakes cruise industry can continue to grow thoughtfully while protecting the communities and natural resources that make the region so special. A Little More About Sally Berry Sally is the Director of Tourism for the Great Lakes St. Lawrence Governors and Premiers. She began her tourism career as Director of Sales at a small seasonal attraction in New York's Finger Lakes and has spent more than 25 years building a reputation as a visionary and innovator. One of her superpowers is seeing the big picture while also understanding the detailed work required to bring an idea to life. Sally is also a sought after speaker and educator who helps tourism professionals better understand sales, networking, collaboration, group travel and international markets. There are so many golden nuggets in this interview that you will want to have your pencil ready to take notes. But first I want to share this important message with you. Okay. I wanted to take time out of this episode to make sure that you know about our weekly Tap Into Travel newsletter created just for travel professionals like you. If you want to stay up to date on emerging trends, learn about collaborations, and be inspired to grow and expand, this newsletter is for you. Each week we feature a new blog, podcast and relevant industry news. Stay connected to the community and sign up by visiting travelalliancepartnership.com newsletter. Now let's get back to the show.

Speaker B: Sally Berry, welcome to the show. I am super jazzed to have you on with me today.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, it is always fun to spend time with you, so thank you for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker B: Yes, me too. And I had such a great time. Our listeners know that I had a great time at the annual meeting for Cruise the Great Lakes and Great Lakes usa. I've talked about it on the show several times. We've had several folks that were at that event on as guests with all kinds of great, uh, information to share. And I know getting this perspective from you today is going to be amazing as well. I'd love to have you, though, before we dive into some questions to tell

Speaker A: me a little bit or tell our

Speaker B: listeners a little bit about yourself and your journey and how you got to be the tourism director of Great Lakes USA and Cruise the Great Lakes. And how did you get there? What was your path? Sally?

Speaker C: Yeah, ah, I wish I had known when I was in my college years that tourism was an, an option. I had no idea that I could have gone to school for, you know, uh, travel and tourism. I don't know how that would have changed, but I didn't realize it until I was in my 30s and happened to have a couple jobs, one after the other, where I thought, wow, I really like doing this. I actually had a bachelor's degree and went back to school to our local community college and took some travel and tourism classes and just fell in love with the whole idea of travel and tourism. And then I was able to get a job as a corporate meeting planner. So I started out as a corporate meeting planner for a few years and one of, um, the venues I used was in the Finger Lakes on Canandaigua la. I ended up getting a job as director, sales and marketing for the Canandaigua lady, which was the Paddlewheel steamboat, which still operates. And from there I ended up going to the regional tourism office The Finger Lakes Tourism m Alliance. So I was there for about eight years and that's where I learned about group tours. Between being on the Canandaigua lady and welcoming group tours. But I never knew where they came from or how to get more of them. And then when I started at Finger Lakes Tourism Alliance, I started going to the trade shows and learned a lot and fell in love with the group tour world. I just, I love the tour operators. I love being able to provide the experiences for the groups. And then also when I was with Finger Lakes Tourism Alliance, I learned about international tourism. It was so daunting to me, but once I got involved with it, I absolutely just fell in love with that and being able to see people at the trade shows. And you know, we just came back from IPW last week, which is an international trade show. And after having been there so many years now, I just, I feel like it's a big family reunion. So I have been in there and did my own consulting for a while, did some speaking. I spoke at some state tourism conferences and just happened to see this job description come up for a tourism director for an organization called Great Lakes St. Lawrence governors and Premiers, which is a big title for the eight states and two provinces that border the Great Lakes. And I applied for it and was lucky enough to be the one that got the role. So I'm actually. A year will be a year next week. So not new anymore, but still learning a lot and just I love all the elements of the role that I have.

Speaker B: That's great. And I, uh, love your story and I've known you probably through most of that, at least I think from when you started at the Canandaigua lady and then moving forward from there. But what I didn't know is that you and I think this is good for listeners because we have listeners of all ages and all levels in terms of where they are in their career. I love that you already had a bachelor's degree, fell in love with the industry, and then had the initiative to go back to community colle and take a few courses to up level your skills. And I think that's such an important thing to know about because, you know, I have kids that are in college right now and just because you're in college, for one thing, does not mean that's where your learning stops or where your development stops. So.

Speaker C: And you know, the path along the way gives you so much credibility and experience and story. So for instance, when I was doing speaking to group tour organizations, I'd be Able to talk about what it's like working as a frontline staff and as a frontline staff, things you can do to be more welcoming to group tours, which if I hadn't worked at a front line and taken tickets and that sort of thing, I wouldn't have that experience. So I'm a big believer in all experience is good experience one way or the other.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Great advice. There's a sound bite I gotta write down for sure. Also what I appreciated about your path and how you were telling the story. Two things that stood out to me. One was the group tour. When you said, I had group tours coming to me, but I didn't know where they came from or how to get more. And then you talked about international tourism and how daunting that felt at first. But once you got into it, it became more natural and you were able to figure it out. And with both of those, I think there's a lot of people who feel that way, right. Who are in our industry and might be in a certain segment or sector and other sectors might seem a little beyond their reach, or they might feel like, oh, I can't go there. Maybe they feel imposter syndrome or something. Talk a little bit about how you think about that and how you just trust yourself and add on.

Speaker C: Well, I would say there's two things that come to mind. First of all is, and I think I'm sure every industry is like this, but it feels like tourism is very acronym heavy. So when I first started, I still remember I went to a Coach USA show and I had a table with candy and coffee mugs and I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And people were throwing around, you know, terms like, I'm a retailer, I'm a wholesaler, we do, you know, we have catalogs. And I'm like, I, um, don't really know what they're talking about. So I feel like when you're an adult, it's sometimes daunting to ask questions of like, what does that term mean? What does that term mean? So one of the things I did when I was doing, I did a blog for many years, as you know, I wrote a, uh, blog post called 25 terms every tourism Pro Should Know. And I literally still send that out to folks. When I was at IPW last week, I met some folks new to tourism. They had worked in state offices and different elements. And so that element, that resource being able to give just basic information is still relevant. So when I'm speaking to folks that are new in the industry, if I say something like aba, nta, something like that, I always say, ABA is American Bus Association. NTA is National Tour Association. And giving people the terminology, I think gives people confidence. Uh, the other element I think our industry is very good at is people wanting to help others. So I know that when I was new, a couple people took me under their wing at trade shows and introduce me around. And so again at IPW the other week, and you see people that are somewhat new, I invite them to sit with me at lunch so they get to meet some other people. I always say there's nothing worse than being by yourself in an event. Right? So when you meet other people, not only do you expand your network, you learn from them about what they do. And so I think our industry is very friendly at helping people. But, you know, there is a barrier to entry. So you also got to be okay asking questions. And like, what does that mean? What does that mean?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so smart. And I, uh, know it's like, oh, I should already know this, so maybe I shouldn't ask the question because then they'll know I don't know it. But how are you going to know it if you don't ask the question? All right, now let's talk a little bit more. Before we get into the actual questions from the show, let's talk a little bit more about what Cruise the Great Lakes and Great Lakes USA is, because this might be new and probably is new to a lot of our listeners in terms of your organization. And it's actually two organizations, but they're under that umbrella that you mentioned earlier, the Saint Loris. Yes. So go ahead.

Speaker C: We. GSGP is the acronyms. And honestly, when I first took the role, I wasn't 100% clear how this all laid out. So GSGP, or Great Lakes St. Lawrence Governors and Premier, is the umbrella organization. And within that organization, there are people that work on marine policy, there's people that work on the trade that goes through the Great Lakes. I am the tourism director, so I oversee all the tourism initiatives. And there are two main tourism initiatives in the Great Lakes region. One is Cruise the Great Lakes. Lots of people don't know there are cruise ships that go through the Great Lakes. And there's actually seven different cruise lines. We have 10 ships this year going through the Great Lakes. And I love talking about that. It's a growing market, for sure. And then also Great Lakes usa, uh, is just the states, and the eight states, from New York up to Minnesota, we promote to the international market specifically, we concentrate on the UK and German speaking markets. Although we certainly work with other countries that have tour operators that we want to work with. But that effort is ongoing as well. And it's a collaborative group. You know, many of the states have their own rep firms or do their own initiatives. My role as tourism director with Great Lakes USA is to provide opportunities for us as a group for, with people within the region. So to present us, uh, to the rest of the world as a very strong vacation region for their guests. So, you know, it always works better if more of us work together towards a common cause.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, great. I appreciate that context because I want to get into some of these questions around creativity and collaboration. And already we know there's going to be a lot about collaboration because that's what your programs really are all about. But let's just kind of talk a little bit about how your, you know, your members, your tourism programs are helping kind of break through all that noise. There's so many choices of things to do and places for people to go, places to go on vacation. And I really love to hear from my guests about what are you doing to help break through that and really stand out in the crowd.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I'm uh, going to take one organization at a time. Great Lakes usa. What we hear from the tour companies and the travel writers is they really like working with a regional organization because as many of your listeners know, international visitors come to the US don't just go to one city or one state. They actually, I believe the statistic is 2.3 states per visit. So it's hard for a tour operator to just concentrate on working with one state because that's not what their guests typically want. So when we can present a regional alternative and use me as a resource to say, well, maybe these two states would be perfect for that type of itinerary. Or if you have a travel writer that might be interested in this, let me connect you with these two states. It's much more efficient for everyone and the tour operators really appreciate that. And you know, my partners, whether it be the state partners or the DMOs within the states, they know I'm constantly working on their behalf as well. So that part is great Cruise. The Great Lakes is an interesting story because we don't think of cruise lines being that popular in the Great Lakes, but the cruise line industry is growing as a whole around the world. But Great Lakes is one of those destinations that's just starting to get discovered. So a lot of my work is helping Connect the dots for the destinations. I don't have a ton of experience in understanding ships and ports. I'm um, loving learning about it. I love learning new things. But what the ports can do to be ready to welcome the cruise ships and then as well working and promoting for new cruise lines to enter the Great Lakes, the demand is there. You know, all of our cruise ships, all uh, the cruise lines are telling us they're basically sold out for 2026, almost sold out for 2027 and are looking at adding new itineraries for 2028 because of the demand. So there's a lot of opportunities for collaboration within that, within the cruise, the Great Lakes element as well.

Speaker B: Mhm, absolutely. And when you're kind of thinking about these two organizations and how you're promoting tourism, because both organizations though are promoting tourism into this region.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Different channels of tourism. Right.

Speaker C: So it's and different end visitor too because for Great Lakes usa it's international inbound visitors. For cruise the Great Lakes, the guests on um, the cruise ships actually between depending on the cruise line specifically are typically between 90 and 95% American citizens. So the end uh, user is very different. A lot of the partners are similar to work together. So it's kind of interesting how we work together and differently through the organizations.

Speaker B: And so I'm curious, with all those dynamics at play, what are you finding to be the most challenging in terms of, you know, in terms of marketing the region or in terms of getting everyone on the same page? Like where do you find the biggest challenges? And then are there any creative ways that you're approaching those challenges that you could share?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I think the challenge with the international inbound as we all know is it's not in a robust place at the moment. We are having to make sure that we give our partners and members value for their membership and when they are working on their budgets, that they are continuing to stay with us. Many of them, their budgets are either being cut or frozen. So not only do I feel like I personally need to provide value to them all the time, but what else can we do creatively, as you said? And you know, co op advertising is one of those things. We have a rep firm in the UK and I just had a call with them this morning about some opportunities to work with some tour operators that will give us some promotion and if we get a certain number of people to buy in, we'll be able to have a nice level program. So for the smaller DMOs, that's not something they would have been able to do themselves. So I think we provide value there. And for both organizations, one of the initiatives I started is providing quarterly webinars. So for Great Lakes usa, we do a webinar every quarter. Typically we have, uh, either a receptive operator or someone that can speak to the international inbound market, maybe research. And for Great Lakes usa, Shelley, who was one of your guests on your podcast with Victory Cruises, did a webinar with us to talk about Victory Cruises. We just did a webinar last week with American Cruise Lines, which is the newest cruise line in the Great Lakes. So I try to provide value to my partners that way. It doesn't cost anything. And, you know, my participants on the webinars are always excited to get in front and share their knowledge and experience. So that's one way that I've been able to provide some value that my partners really appreciate. We record them so people can watch them later. So it's sort of the gift that keeps on giving. So I'm excited about those because they're fun to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. One thing I love about webinars too, especially when you have a community like you have, like a smaller community, segmented community within the greater tourism, um, world, if you will, ecosystem, is that you have the same people kind of showing up over and over. And it really, even though it's virtual, it kind of helps build those relationships and keep the momentum going in between, say, in person times that you get to see each other.

Speaker C: And the other thing that I really do appreciate, I feel like we've done enough of them now, or maybe in general, people have done enough webinars over the last few years in general, is people are very comfortable asking questions because I think that adds so much energy and dynamics to a, uh, webinar. So, you know, we have people asking 2, 3 questions at a time. And that gets other people that may be sitting on the sidelines feeling comfortable asking questions. So the more involved everyone gets, I think that is a really good indicator too, of how much they're interested in learning and, you know, just making sure they get their value. So I always use that as an indicator of how well the webinar has gone as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. And I love those questions because it really does help you kind of understand what's on everyone's mind. Yeah.

Speaker C: Or things you hadn't thought of or the presenter hadn't thought of. Be like, great question. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Exactly. All right, so you shared a couple of new things that you're working on looking into the future, I know there's actually a lot of exciting things happening. Tell us about, about all the exciting things. For example, I'll just share, because it was all over my social media. This new cruise line that's on the Great Lakes is making stops in ports, especially in the Great Lake I live near. They have not seen cruise ships, I don't think, ever in some cases. So talk a little bit about that and the growth that's happening there.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's really exciting. American cruise lines, new this year in the Great Lakes, and they are going to destinations that haven't had cruise ships before, as you mentioned. And, uh, like any other company, they need to be able to differentiate themselves, offer something different that folks can't get on a, you know, on a different cruise. So one of the things that I think American cruise lines does well is they go into the ports, the potential ports, ahead of time, and, you know, work with the DMO there and maybe do a little secret shopping as well, looking for really unique things to do. And so when the cruise pulls up, they already have the infrastructure in place to do the cruise excursions. American Cruise Lines, actually several of the cruise lines, the buses travel with them. So while the cruise ships are on the water, the buses are actually traveling along. So they have the same drivers every day for their excursions. And that's something I learned when I started. I did not know that was a thing. So, uh, that's kind of neat. But what I'm really enjoying seeing is these ports that are getting them for the first time. I'll use Rochester as an example, because I was there last week. They had an actors dressed as Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony greeting the folks as they got off the ship. And then in Buffalo, New York, also getting American cruise Lines for the first time, they had some drummers there. And then anyone that knows Buffalo, New York knows beef on whack is a very popular sandwich there. And a woman that has a restaurant that's very well known for their beef on weck showed up at the port with beef on weck for all the crew. So I love hearing all the unique things people are doing to welcome them. We know our friends in Green Bay, when the ships come into port there, they set up like lawn games. They have a portable visitor center that's in a converted ambulance. So what I love seeing is the creativity of each destination kind of showing off what they can do. We had one smaller destination that the high school marching band came down that morning and welcomed into town. So I Love all that creativity and the guests getting off the ships. Not only is it a cool welcome, but it's a great memory. And I just think it's such a fun way to promote the destination that we don't typically get to do. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. To know exactly that this big group of people is getting off and coming into your community all at the same time. Yeah, that's a really great opportunity. I love it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it gets great press and it's fun. And I have pictures on my phone of people getting their pictures taken with Susan B. Anthony. And they were talking to Susan B. Anthony as if she was Susan B. Anthony. So it's just a really cool moment that you can really customize to your destination. It's fun to see.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I've seen Susan before and you cannot get her out of character. She is Susan is Susan when she's dressed that way. That's amazing. I love it.

Speaker C: That is true.

Speaker B: So let's talk a little bit more about collaboration. And while we're talking about the cruise ships, let's start with that one, because one thing I was really impressed about at the event at your annual meeting that I attended was, uh, you know, we always talk about competitors, and I love this idea of coopetition where perceived competitors come together, do something better together than they can alone. And you're two organizations are great examples of that. But cruise lines, I mean, they're competitive. They're kind of like hotels in that way. Right.

Speaker A: And so to be in a room

Speaker B: with these various cruise lines who are competing for the same type of customer that's interested in the Great Lakes, but to have them in the same room sharing openly, I thought was amazing. So talk a little bit about the collaboration and what you've seen in terms of collaboration within your organization.

Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, I think having come many years in the group tour world, I feel like it's kind of similar with tour companies as well. Right. Your competitors. But you're also working together. You may have an opportunity where you're going to partner for this one itinerary sort of thing. So I feel like it's not as rare as we think, because once you see it, uh, you're like, oh, it makes sense. So. And I can see why they would do that. The cruise lines, I think, are just like a hyper example of that, because there's not as many cruise lines in the Great Lakes. Right. So they certainly are, you know, they certainly work really well together. And I loved, as you said on the panel discussion we had A, uh, representative from Victory Cruise Lines and then Pearl Cruises at American Cruise Line. So three out of our seven were there and they shared information. They have similar stories and like many industries, you maybe have worked for a competitor in the past. So I think the idea of we're all in this together. Yes, we all have our different products. And one of the things I have learned with the cruise industry specifically is people are very loyal to their cruise line. If they book on a Victory cruise, they will go on all the Victory cruises. If they like American cruise Lines, they stay on all the American cruise lines. So I think it's more likely that they don't share customers as much. They share destinations, they can share similar itinerary. So they try to differentiate themselves on that way. But their customers are just very loyal. And as we learned in the presentation, you know, basically like a frequent flyer, if you go on more than three cruises with the cruise lines, you get your excursions for free on the next one. And so there's a lot of incentive to be loyal to the specific cruise line as well. And I think when a cruise, when a port does a great job of welcoming a cruise ship, it makes it easier for the next cruise ship to then, you know, be able to do it as well. So I think they are fairly collaborative. I think they are. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And that panel you mentioned, which Shelly, uh, and I talked about in our interview, so our listeners would have heard a little bit about, but they were sharing their sustainable practices and what they were doing. And after that panel, I heard two of the panelists talking and one said that was such a great idea. I think I'm going to try that on ours, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, and I think tourism in general, but I think my, I'm just going to be biased and say my partners and members are all very friendly and very helpful people. So I think that's the rule more than the exception, for sure. Mhm.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I love it. So talk a little bit about managing collaborations and what you think are some of the best practices that help set collaborations up for success.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I have to mention the keynote that you gave at our annual meeting where you talked about collaboration and you handed out paddles and perhaps a lot of your listeners have seen this in real time, but you talk about the various levels of collaboration. Remind me the name.

Speaker B: There's collaborator, protester, there's three, three types of collaborators. And it's promoter, protector and doubter. Uh, those are the three.

Speaker C: Yeah, so we handed those out in advance. And at one Point. You had everyone lift up the paddle. And I mean, I'll collaborate with anyone on anything. I'm a big connector. So. Yeah, but to look around the room and see the variety of what people said and that people were very honest if they were protectors or doubter. I mean, I really thought that was impressive. But then you went on to say, every project, every collaboration needs all three types. And for me, that was like, you know what? She's right. Because the doubters make you make sure you've got an airtight case and that project is bulletproof because you know what their questions are going to be.

Speaker B: Yeah, they ask all the annoying. They ask all the annoying questions, but you have to know they're not annoying.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, I will say, because in the past, at past positions, I have had people like that. I could hear their voice in my head, so I would know. I got to be able to have that answer. I got to work on that. So I will say having you do that presentation was very visually helpful to me because it's like everyone is needed at the table and all of us together strengthen any collaborative project. So I have to give you a shout out for that. I literally think about that often. Um, yeah. So I think the collaborations, like with Great Lakes USA specifically, the region is so large. If you think from New York to Minnesota, that's a good chunk of the country. So not every project we come up with is going to make sense for everyone to do it. And so, for instance, if we have a travel writer coming, we can't have them come from Minnesota to New York. It would take literally days. Right. We have a very large region. So one of the elements with our collaborations is we think of this maybe works best for these three states. Let's see what they think. And then another project will be more appropriate for now for these states. So a little bit is wanting to make sure everyone gets a piece of the pie. You just don't all get the same piece at the same time of the same pie. Right. So the more I'm learning about my destinations, you can have been in the industry for 100 years and then you're still learning things about different destinations, where they could shine best, and trying to make sure everyone gets equal coverage over the long run. I think that's important to me, and I hope I make that clear with my partners, is this may not be a good fit for you. Buy we've got something else coming in the fall that I think will be. I think it's important to just be clear I'm, um, not here to favor one destination over another, but spread the wealth and make sure everyone gets represented at some point equally. I think that's very important. And then always just to be open to, uh, you know, ideas, thinking outside the box. So years ago, I used to work at the Corning Museum of Glass, and I always said, I'll partner with anyone, anywhere, because we don't need the overnight. And we often partner with Niagara Falls, Canada, because that was one of the ways. A lot of our guests traveled from New York City to Corning and to Niagara Falls. Sometimes the US side, sometimes the Canadian side. But I met with the sales folks at Henry Ford Museum in Detroit because we thought that could be a nice itinerary. So not only not in my state, it was two states away, but we thought this is a fun way we could create something, collaborate all together and work on an itinerary that would make sense that people would want to carry. So I'm always thinking too, what's an opportunity that maybe we haven't thought of that would be something kind of fun and different to do with, you know, someone you wouldn't have thought of?

Speaker B: That's a great example because first of all, just to say Niagara Falls, Canada, and not New York, I mean, as a destination in New York State, at first feel like, well, I have to

Speaker A: do New York State.

Speaker B: But then pushing yourself further to say, well, but the customer is going to go to Canada, so I should broaden my thinking, right? And think, you know, push myself. And then they're in Canada, it's an easy drive to get over to Detroit. So again, thinking about the customer journey or the visitor and how they travel and figuring out those points along the way is really good. And sometimes I think something different because

Speaker C: we know tour operators, whether it's a motor coach company, an international, uh, receptive operator, they're all looking for something different, right? So if you can do a majority of the legwork for them. And like, here's an idea, here's a theme. You know, we have a lot in the Great Lakes region, we have a lot of Frank Lloyd Wright history. So I heard at ipw, which made my day, that two destinations and two states are going to work together to try to create a Frank Lloyd Wright trail. So I'm very excited with that. It's a great theme. I love that cities are working with different states. So I love that. That collaboration is really cool. The theme of Frank Lloyd Wright, not only does it stand the test of time, it's just, it's Very unique and a lot of it is based in the Great Lakes. It couldn't happen anywhere else but in the Great Lakes. So I think we'll be able to take advantage of that and put some really cool things together. And I'm excited to see what they come up with. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And I love to hear that too, because that was. You mentioned my keynote. But during the exercise and the keynote, whenever, when people work together, that was one of the ideas that came up, I think. So I'm glad to hear that they didn't drop it and they met at

Speaker C: IEWW and because, yeah, they told me, one of the folks told me at IPW that they had a meeting, they're gonna have a follow up. I was like, oh, that makes me so happy.

Speaker B: That's wonderful. That makes me very happy. I love to hear that. I also wanted to go back to what you said earlier. I loved how you said it. Everybody gets a piece of the pie, but maybe not every pie. And I think when people think about collaboration, sometimes they feel like it has to be equal and everybody has to have equal pieces. And that might be a little bit of a misleading, uh, thought because if you have one piece of pie and there's 20 people that need a slice, it dilutes the whole thing. And that's the opposite of what we're trying to do with collaboration where we're trying to strengthen, do more together than you can on your own.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: So, yeah. So I love how you're still keeping it equal, but you're thinking about it more in smaller chunks, uh, in different subsets and different groups.

Speaker C: Exactly. And one of the things we're going to be doing with the Great Lakes usa, so for our international inbound, is we're going to be sending out a once a month story pitch idea with a different theme. So do you have a dark sky community? If you do, send us a paragraph and two pictures. Because it's going to serve two purposes. It's going to help us build a database. So if our, uh, UK or German reps get a last minute story pitch idea, they'll have things to pull from. They'll be like, here's an idea. Also it's, uh, a good way for us to say you have this. That's great. Next month's story pitch you might not have, and that's fine, but maybe you'll have the story pitch after that. So I think it's going to be also helpful for all of us to say what you do really well. And if it's not the best thing in your wheelhouse. Let it go this month. And to your point, it'll strengthen all our story pitches. If people commit to doing the ones that they do have, that will be interesting. So I'm looking forward to seeing what folks come up with. We came up with a whole list of different ideas. You know, some are rural based, some are city based, some are historical based. So we'll have a nice variety of different pitch ideas.

Speaker B: Oh, fabulous. That's another really great way to look at it. I love it so much. So I just want to kind of finish on, um, this final question that I have and I'm going to ask this to you. I usually ask this question to DMO specifically, but Sally, you have such depth of experience in our industry that I think you'll have a unique point of view on this and also from your work that you do with the destinations that you're working with and the ports. But the question that I typically ask our, uh, DMOS is this idea about how destination marketing has moved from being destination marketing to being not even destination management anymore. It's more kind of this holistic look at the destination and you know, destination stewardship, however you want to describe it. And I think that you have an interesting point of view and place that you sit in terms of that idea, this holistic view, especially when you're talking about your role, learning about the ports and then you know, your work with the destinations and understanding their challenges and all of that. And so I'm just curious as you think about like your work, the work of tourism, where we're evolving to, where do you see the industry going and how are you thinking about it at this point in your career?

Speaker C: That's a small question.

Speaker B: I know it is. I'm throwing it at you. Anyway,

Speaker C: I'll answer it. One from cruise the Great Lakes and then Great Lakes USA perspective. So cruise the Great Lakes. I think it's a niche that's growing, it's on its upward curve. So it's exciting to be a part of that. And I think one of the things that is interesting to a lot of my members because we, the province of Quebec and the province of Ontario are strong partners of ours as well. I think the sustainability element is something they want to be able to speak to and be able to not only learn more about, but what initiatives can we get involved in? So I see that as the trend. Our ships are not like the ocean going vessels that, you know, make a lot more trash, pollution, whatever, that all is ours are smaller. And to your point, at the conference we were talking about specific sustainability initiatives. So I think what's exciting about Cruise the Great Lakes is it's growing. You know, we've got new cruise lines looking at coming into the region. And for those of you that aren't that familiar with the Great Lakes, we'll never get the big carnival ships, the big Royal Caribbean's because our ships have to be able to fit in through the St. Lawrence Seaway, which is what connects the Atlantic Ocean to Lake Ontario. And there's locks in the Welland Canal near Niagara Falls and also the Saint Marie locks up in the north. So we'll always have smaller river size or expedition size ships. And those companies tend to be more environmentally aware. Uh, so I think for Cruise the Great Lakes the excitement and the trends, uh, are the growth and how can we get more destinations to be able to be ready to welcome the demand that we're seeing for cruise ships. And you know, the Great Lakes I often use this data is over 20% of the world's fresh water. So it is a very precious resource for us. So some people want to make sure that we keep that obviously as clean as possible. So sustainability, I think for Cruise the Great Lakes is something we'll be growing and discussing more for Great Lakes USA because of the challenging times we are in. The benefit for the Great Lakes region as a whole though is we typically don't get first time visitors to the United States. We are not the New York, the Las Vegas, the Orlando, the folks that come to see the Great Lakes regions and everything we have to offer. They're usually on their fourth trip, third, fourth, fifth trip. So they have been to the U.S. they love what they see in the U.S. they have positive feelings about the U.S. so we're somewhat bullish on the fact that our guests are still going to come because now they've seen the big national parks, now they want to see. You know, we have national parks up in Minnesota. We have state parks that act like national parks. We have small towns. The theme Midwest nice is very true. So for our international visitors, we may be somewhat constrained on the total numbers, but the interest is still there. Talking to tour operators at ipw, they said your destination is the kind of things our folks are interested in doing. So they are looking for new itineraries for that sort of thing. And I think the opportunity also is for us to all remember it's a Nicole Mahoney saying, we're all stronger together, right? So as long as we work as a region, market ourselves as a region, work cooperatively, spend our resources better together, we'll survive this bump in the road. And the Great Lakes region will be really well poised to just burst right back onto the scene when we get folks that are eager to travel to the US Again.

Speaker B: Absolutely. See, that was a great answer to my softball question. I knew you had a good one. I was like, I'm not going to let her off that easy. She's got some good information to share here. No, but that was terrific. And the other thing I thought of as you were describing, both the organizations and the trends and their impact is the communities that you serve are those smaller communities. They're not the big destinations like you mentioned, like the New York cities or Miami or you know, some of those big cruise ports. And having a expedition sized cruise ship show up in their port means a lot to their local economy. And so there's so many impacts, I think really positive impacts from the work that you're doing for these smaller rural and smaller city destinations that I think is just so, uh.

Speaker C: And Cruise Line International has put out data that a majority of folks come in a night before their cruises. In fact, most of our cruise lines build that into the itinerary so you get the, the destinations get the night before. And over 60% of folks that come to a port city say they're going to come back. So it's a kind of visitor you wouldn't have maybe necessarily got before. And for a lot of our cities we do a really good job of surprising people. Right. I was in Cleveland last fall and folks coming back from visiting the Rock and Roll hall of Fame and the art museum almost to a person said, I had no idea Cleveland was like this. We've got to come back. So the cruise lines allow us to get a new type of visitor into our communities that maybe wouldn't have considered it before. So it's been really beneficial that way too.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, Sally, this has been great. I knew it would be. I love talking to you and I always learn new things from you for sure. And I know our listeners learned a lot. So in closing, if you have any final thoughts or anything that you'd like to share and also if you could let our listeners know how they can find out out more information about your organization should they want to connect with you.

Speaker C: Sure. So probably LinkedIn is the best. Sally Davis Berry B E R R Y find me on LinkedIn and you'll see links to our organizations. I think as we talked before we started recording was that people are always looking for more information on being of the best tourism professional they can. So kudos to you for doing this regularly because I think it's really helpful in continuing conversations. And I also think when you hear from different people in the industry, you realize how broad our industry is. Right. And how many jobs there are in the industry. You know, it's just. It's amazing. This is such a huge industry with so many opportunities. So I'm thrilled that you're helping people learn more about it. And, yeah, I mean, I'm never going to retire. I was like, I love what I do. And we're so lucky to work with nice people all the time. So we're very, very lucky.

Speaker B: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Thanks so much, Sally. This has been awesome.

Speaker C: All right, thank you. Great to see you.

Speaker A: It's time to hit the road again. Visit Travel Alliance Partners for more industry education and other learning resources to help you stay two steps ahead. Community and collaboration lead to greater success for all. So dive in, listen, read and watch along to future proof your organization. Thanks for listening.