Amy Luethmers - Deep Dive into Agile Marketing Podcast (Episode Thirty-Four)

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Deep Dive into Agile Marketing podcast with your host, John Kass. Together we'll take a closer look at the ins and outs of marketing through an agile lens. You'll learn from interviews with top agile thought leaders and practitioners and gain fresh new insights for your journey. Let's get ready to dive in.

Speaker C: Welcome to the Deep Dive into Agile Marketing. I'm your host, John Kass here in Boston, Massachusetts. Today I'll be interviewing Amy Lithmeyers, uh, senior Manager, Transformation and Enterprise Delivery at Northern Tool. Welcome Amy.

Speaker D: Well, thanks for having me, John. Good to see you again.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great to see you. Um, I just so remember our last podcast interview where um, I just think you did such a great job as one of my favorite podcasts, if I can dare say that without, uh, hedging with the other folks that are out there. Um, I wanted to start off by um, with you talking a little bit about your background in marketing and um, what it is you are doing now.

Speaker D: Sure. Um, I went a sort of non traditional route as I got into the agile space. Um, a lot of people learn about agile in certification courses or just because they're part of an IT environment and then maybe over time they may transition to other business areas. But for me I was a marketer for many, many years and uh, a leader in marketing operations and ended um, up hearing about Agile and learning about IT from m. Some Marc Tech projects that I worked on. And having a husband that works in the IT space also helped me, um, think about transitioning my marketing team into that space. Um, then I loved IT so much, I moved into the consulting space and out of uh, marketing as a discipline. And now I find myself doing where everybody else starts and I'm very deeply embedded in an IT team. So it's been an interesting experience for me because I kind of thought I understood the differences between how IT works in marketing and it. Um, but you really get your hands dirty and uh, start working in that environment. It's not quite as clear. And now I feel like I have a little more clarity on that.

Speaker C: You know, it's interesting that you have that background and you're working with the uh, it folks, uh, the moment, even though you know, you have the background in marketing, um, what is it about the nature of work in the IT space compared to marketing that's different and what's the same in some circumstances?

Speaker E: Sure.

Speaker D: Um, I think it's the problem that each area is trying to solve that's most different. Um, in marketing a lot of Times you don't necessarily know what the value is, um, if you're on the strategic end of marketing. So, um, there's a heavier emphasis on test and learn. Um, where in it, um, there's test, tons of discovery and test and learn work done in this space as well. But in general, the business has done all the research, the marketing campaigns are done. Um, you're trying to do a very specific enhancement or fix. Um, and it's more about being how reliable the team is and that predictability. Um, so we don't know what the value is as a marketer until you do it. Where, um, in it, you know exactly, you know, what features you're burning down and things like that. So it's just a little more concrete. And leadership is looking for different things. They want predictability in it and um, in marketing, it's almost pushing marketers to stop doing the same thing and increase their veritability. Um, and then as far as being the same, um, I would just go back on everything I just said because there are cases in marketing where I think they work much closer to how an IT team does. Like if you're a creative service unit or an agency that you do have pretty, um, tight expectations on timelines for your SLAs and things like that, um, where maybe that does take priority more than, um, experimenting. You have pretty rigid deadlines to get your product out. Um, and the same at it. We are starting to see some really great movement from some of our teams where they're coming to the business with the problem. So, um, and saying, you know, what do you think about us working on this? Um, so they're sort of shifting the strategic end as well. So, um, when I make generalizations about, uh, either space, I would just qualify it by saying I've seen differences and similarities in both. You know, it's. There's not one team that's the same.

Speaker C: Yeah, Amy, I love, uh, how you started that by talking about how marketers are, uh, focused on, uh, figuring out what the value is and they don't always know that. I mean, I sometimes the way that I've been thinking about it for the last year or so is that marketers work in a chaotic environment in the sense that they have a situation where they have customers that, as you say, they don't always know what the value is. They're trying to figure out what the right messaging is. And part of that messaging that works maybe for their company or doesn't work for their company is determined in part because they also have this other factor out there, the competitors who are competing with them and they may have different messaging. And so um, that's what makes I think their environment competitive. And it's one of the reasons why I think there's often a disconnect between the C suite and marketers and the expectations that C suite people have of marketers and compared to the IT staff. Right, Especially developers where they say, oh well developers, they just go out and they do what they tell, you know, I tell them to do. But marketers, you know, I tell you to do something, in some, for some reason you can't do it. Why? Why is that? Well the reason is they have to figure out, they have to grapple, as you had said, with uh, figuring out what the right value is. I mean what's your take on that? Between the chaotic nature of uh, marketing compared to the um, uh, controlled environment of uh, it. Let's go to our sponsor.

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Speaker D: uh, I would agree with you 100%. Um, you know when I was in marketing I gravitated towards um, agile for some of my teams almost more to have some structure because it was so chaotic. Um and in um it, it's been in the space a lot longer. Um so someone coming in and like myself that's running transformation here and um, coaching other agile coaches and agile leads on the teams, um, it's so much easier to get it going because they've had at least some familiarity with it. It's not a brand new concept. Um, but you know they may have had bad experiences with it as well but they know all the processes. They might not understand the why. So you spend a little more time maybe doing that where in when you're working with a marketing team, it's a brand new concept to them. Um, they, they see it as almost a confinement at first um to creative freedom and it takes some time to show them how. If you are truly using a test and learn model and you're um, really protecting your focus and you're doing all the analysis as you're doing these things versus I cranked out you know, this many marketing initiatives, you don't even know if they work. Um, if you're using that true test and learn model, you're going be more impactful and you're going to have even more time for creativity. And so that's, that's always been the, uh, kind of, uh, carrot that I throw out for marketing, uh, teams that I coach. And it's, it's a harder sell, I think, with marketers where it kind of, it's an expectation you're gonna, you're gonna work this way.

Speaker C: Right, right, right. POD and you had talked about how this, the similarities there, especially marketing teams like the creative agency. I wonder if the C Suite leaders see that situation where they want something and they require it for marketing and they get it back. Right. And then, so they're used to that, but they don't. They have a creative team who might include a marketer, but really isn't really a senior marketer. And then a senior marketer comes along and it's a different situation where it's not, oh, I'm going to give you what you want. I'm going to try and figure out what it is the customer needs, you know, and test it, as you had said. I mean, do you, do you think that's the disconnect where C Suite leaders are so used to sort of the basics of creative and they're assuming that that's what marketing is? Do you think, do you think that's the issue?

Speaker D: I do. Um, you know, I think, you know, all leaders like a beautiful Gantt chart timeline and want to believe that that's actually going to happen no matter what space you're in. Um, so, I mean, even IT teams are still have to educate their C suite that that's just not gonna, we can make a beautiful chart, but it won't happen. You know, we have to teach them what, what realistic, um, timelines are and how roadmaps are different than timelines. Right. And, um, marketers I think, have an even larger challenge with that because, um, you know, at least an IT team, you can say, well, we're through all these features, we're halfway there. Or it's, it's easier to kind of benchmark those things where when you're working with marketing, um, you know, hopefully have done all your research and you're starting out with some initiatives to meet the goal that your C Suite wants, you know, getting a new segment, you know, growing the business, whatever, whatever your end goal is. Um, but, you know, you really don't 100% know if that initiative or that new campaign you're putting out there is going to work or not. Um, so it's hard to tell someone when you'll be done. So it's better to be able to build that partnership and that trust with your leadership by really getting good at the whole, um, test and learn and the iterative model. Because if you can sell that piece, they'll give you the space to experiment when you build that trust. Um, but you do have to show those quick results somewhere. Um, so it's in it. I think you can we work iteratively but that people are okay waiting longer to see a final result where in marketing you're spending money every day, um, and it's a tough sell to say, well, we're still experimenting, um, let us test and learn. Uh, you still have to get some wins quickly.

Speaker C: Right? Right. And you talked a moment, uh, a few months ago about how you liked using Agile for marketing because it gave some, uh, rigor and structure to the chaos. Um, how do you think it is that marketers, um, can use Agile as a way to have a conversation with those C suite leaders about the realities of what marketing is in terms of managing the chaos?

Speaker D: Uh, one of the things that I've been doing even in the IT space is really emphasizing how Agile brings focus to teams and how important that is and how much uh, we lose every time we context switch. Right. It takes 25 minutes to refocus again every time you're interrupted. Um, so regardless of which uh, frameworks you use or which space we're talking it or marketing, um, if you're doing it well, um, and you bring your stakeholders along, um, when you teach them the value of, of what you get out of letting people focus and truly go down that path and give them the space to test and learn, they start to see that better value coming through. Um, and I often do little, uh, examples with, uh, leaders to show the impact of when you don't give people space and you give them too many things, um, even to the point of if we're in person, maybe throwing balls at them, they can catch one or two, but it starts on four or five, you're going to drop them. Right. But they do expect marketing to do that. You know, it's like, hurry up, try all the things. Um, and a lot of times there isn't that time to test and learn. And by having a structure you can, you can point to it and say, you know, here's what we've done, here's what we've learned, um, here's how we're going to iterate on that or change our path. Um, it gives you some talking points to talk to the C suite on exactly what you're doing, not just, you know, we're over here playing around, spending a lot of money. We don't know if it works or not yet. Um, I think my experience has been that executives really appreciate seeing that there is a process and that, um, you can have some measurable results as you go along.

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Speaker C: how does leadership style, uh, need to shift when coaching marketers, uh, versus developers?

Speaker D: Um, I think for developers, you know, it's. Leaders seem to be mostly, you know, looking for an increase in predictability. Um, where in um, marketing you're really trying to push, like, experiment, you know, be, you know, try new things and test and learn. Um, and those are different types of leadership personalities. Um, and you can see leaders that are more of that driver, get it done, get it over the finish line in, in both spaces. Um, so it's, it's a big shift on the marketing side to say to, to get them to stop doing the throwing paint on the wall. And it's not how many marketing initiatives you're doing, it's how, um, impactful and effective those initiatives are. And you, you would think that would be kind of natural to marketing leaders, but I, I haven't found that to be the case. It mostly sounds like, you know, we're, I get a lot of, we need to try all these things because it was in my plan I built six months ago. I need to check them all off. Um, that's a hard shift for, um, marketing leaders. Where in it, if you have someone like that, um, that could still work and not maybe impact the team quite as much if that's the mentality that that leader has. Um, we still want to protect the team sometimes from the leader. Excuse me, um, in that they, uh, have trouble sometimes protecting the focus more, I think, because, you know, there's always emergencies in it and um, they get moved off the path a lot with changing priorities and things like that. So it's um, more of an emphasis. If leaders want predictability, they've got to get better at prioritization and protecting the team's focus. And on the uh, marketing side it's more if you, if you want um, initiatives that are really driving your value and we're not wasting a lot of money guessing, then you need to give uh, your team the space to do that and ah, hold yourself accountable to that as well as a leader.

Speaker C: I mean do you think it's partly about the nature of the work that derives uh, how uh, the different types of leaders approach this?

Speaker D: Um, yeah. Are you thinking um, you know, working on like a brand new strategic campaign on the marketing side versus um, more of a system or a product on the IT side or.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I mean I think you described that earlier, right where you were saying that there are similarities across both marketing and it. And you gave that example of the creative area. You know, do you have other exam, sort of other contrast examples of work,

Speaker D: um, of something similar or different?

Speaker A: Similar.

Speaker D: Similar, yeah. Um, well we have um, even in the teams that I'm working with now we have about 10 different teams and you know the, the tendency just you know, teach them all Scrum because that works in our space. Well we have some teams that honestly cannot control the work that they have coming in right. Like say they're a service area. They don't know how many calls are going to come in a day. We can't time box that like you know in, into a Scrum format. So you know they need to use something more like a Kanban format. Um, and it's, it's similar in marketing. Um, you know there's, there's teams that um, can timebox. They work on a lot of campaigns that are defined. They need to burn it down, get it out in a certain time period, works great or some variation of Scrum. And um, others it's, they also can't control their work, right. It's their um, they need to do whatever's next and kind of keep that flow and that momentum going. Like, like we said creative uh, services area. So um, I think in both cases you always have to be um, you know, fluid about your approach and about the methods and practices you use and not worry about um, you know, doing a certain framework 100% by the book. Um, you need to do what drives the outcome you need for those teams. And even in the same organization they, there may be huge differences in the different teams that you're working with.

Speaker C: I've seen it. Uh, departments uh, get more power as it Were, you know, take on more projects and marketing doesn't always have a seat at the table. What can marketers learn from IT leaders and what can uh, IT leaders learn from marketers? Because the IT leaders at the same time you talked about that, which is the IT teams are starting to move into the strategy. Right. And the business side of things.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And in fact they're being pushed to do that. So.

Speaker B: Huh.

Speaker C: So what can each side learn from each other?

Speaker D: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think from marketers um, they can learn that if you have a process that you can convey, you know, not all the agile speak but just you know clearly when people can expect a, ah, prototype, a test mvp, something like um, they start to relax a little more and give you that space. Um, and sometimes the funding, you know, if you want um, a large amount of money to redo a whole website and you get a no, um, if you could show what if we just uh, work on this part of the site where we generate our most income and you know kind of earn what we burn to do that. Right. And then um, and move on from there and you're, you're basically teaching that C suite to understand what an MVP is and in it um, they're more familiar with it and their leadership is, they do that a lot. Um, and so I don't think that's as hard of a learning curve for the C suite to understand um, from IT as it is in marketing. Um, but on the flip side what I um, kind of excelled in when I was in the marketing space was putting marketing in that driver's seat and having a seat at the table because we were able to better convey how we were being strategic with the funding that we had and we weren't just throwing pain at the wall. Um, and IT also can learn from that. Um, they often are seen as just the end of a process and the get it done the service area. And um, as we're encouraging um IT members to um, bring up problems to the business versus just um, the business telling them what they need or to uh, you know, question the why if they're asked to you know, create another report for this and you, you don't know what the why is. Maybe there's a better way to do it. Maybe you already know of an existing dashboard. You know, instead of just blindly doing whatever the work item says, we're trying to teach our um, IT specialists um, to shift that thinking and not um, be afraid to have that dialogue with their stakeholders. And I think marketers are much more comfortable with that. Um, they tend to be a lot more outgoing people, uh, than folks on the IT side. That's very hard for them to do. Um, but you know, we're starting to see some growth in that area and I've used examples from when I've worked at marketing with marketing teams to teach IT teams like this can be done. Here's how it worked for me. Um, and uh, we're moving the right direction there.

Speaker C: That's so interesting that you use an example from marketing for the IT team. Uh, and it helped them to understand the process.

Speaker D: Process, yeah. Um, you know, there's, there's becoming, you know, less and less distinctness in some ways between marketing and it. Because in the middle you have martech, you know, so, um, there's definitely a bit of understanding of each other's world now, um, where they were very, very separate before. Um, and because there is so much technology and data management in, in marketing now, um, it's not, it's not that hard to, you know, share some parallels, um, or similar type projects to both teams.

Speaker C: That's good. That's good. Well, Amy, this has been a great conversation. I want to thank you for joining us.

Speaker D: Oh, thank you for having me. Always, always a pleasure to talk about agile marketing with you.

Speaker C: Thanks for joining us on the Deep Dive into Agile Marketing with John Kass. My thanks to Amy, uh, Lithmeyers and we'll see you next time.

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