The Accountability Gap: Why Most RevOps Systems Fail (& How to Make Yours Succeed) w/ Katarina Lujic

Speaker A: Biggest surprise since starting is finding out Revops is useless unless wanna cause no problems.

Speaker B: I just wanna live my life. But I keep on hearing about nonsense. Me and my dons ain't mobsters. But you know when you see imposters, we know how to read them faces, same way you know how to read them comments. If you wanna talk, let's talk. But right here, make sure you walk and your talk is constant.

Speaker C: Well, hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Death to Vanilla podcast. I'm your host Stephen Burkhart and I am joined today by a wonder Lady Katerina that I met at a wonderful networking event called yes, Phoenix. And uh, we just really hit it off and she does amazing thing with Revops. And so I thought she. And it's her own business, so I thought she'd be really valuable uh, because in your nice conversation together you had just dropped some really great nuggets of like how you work with people that's a little bit different than others. And I thought, hey, that's perfect for the Death of Vanilla podcast. So um, everyone welcome her and uh, hello and welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: So, um, let's get the scariest question out of the way first. Tell us a little bit about yourself. This is your chance to brag.

Speaker A: Totally. And I feel like right now I'm in a cool place in my life where it's hard not to talk about being a first time founder. That's like the most exciting, arguably probably the most exciting thing I've done yet in my life. So um, it's hard not to start there. But I'll start with my origin story. Um, everyone has one. So, um, I'm an immigrant from former Yugoslavia. We immigrated here in 98. Um, we were in Ohio for a little bit, landed in Phoenix and I've been here for 20 years. Went uh, to ASU, started at a couple Silicon Valley based startups that had just opened up their Phoenix offices. There was Gigya, there was Zenefits, just run by Parker Conrad who now does Rippling, and Sam Blonde, um, was also a partner here. So it just really cut my teeth in some of these awesome names that I had a great privilege to do. But I noticed that my why wasn't really resonating. I think after the first few years of being in these high pressure situations, which I love, action oriented positions, that's what attracted me to startups. But after a while you're bringing in revenue and kind of wondering what's your why? Um, so I left these startups, I went abroad to get my master's degree to travel a little bit. And um, I found out that the reason I'm attracted to startups and founders in this world is because I really feel like SMBs and founders can shape our economy and by extension they can change our world and what's awesome about the place that we live in. And I did my master's in Germany, so I got a firsthand look into what startups are like there. Um, we're pretty privileged here in the United States of America in terms of what our barrier to entry as a startup is. Really anyone can start a business here and that's super exciting to me. So I came back here, I wanted to get back in the startup grind. I wanted to get back in Silicon Valley based startups and apply my why now? Um, So I had 10 years of experience in startups, um, I had my graduate degree and then I went back to some other high growth places in this new rev ops role. Um, and suddenly was in charge of fundraising tasks. Um, and really more motions that are driven with the whole company's revenue in mind. Raised millions of dollars, mitigated millions of dollars in churn, and again was struggling with like man, who am I working for? I'm working with companies whose missions I don't align with. Um, they spend all this time interviewing the right candidate, making sure the values align and then six months in you realize they don't practice any of those values.

Speaker C: Do companies do that? That's so weird. I've never heard of this before.

Speaker A: It very much was like, how can I, how can I apply these million dollar VC backed strategies for SMBs, for startups, for products that I really care about, that I really want to advance. Um, and that's what I started doing, um, six months ago. I launched my own business, Lugic Group llc. And that's what I'm trying to do. And it's been really exciting. Um, personally I'm always on the lookout for a great cup of dirty chai latte. That's like my thing if I go to a coffee shop. That's what I'm always looking at in Phoenix. I love gardening, I love backpacking, I like traveling. Um, and then when I'm not doing those things, I just love hanging out with my two dogs. And of course I'm process oriented. So I like doing obedience training, I like doing scent work with my dogs, I like doing all this nut stuff. But, um, it's been a journey. But I definitely have to say that the last six months has been probably the most Exciting professional move I've done, and my only regret is not doing it sooner.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. No, I love that. Um, you know, really, it's. I love when you bring that kind of experience to the table because it's like, it's one of the things that I hope happens with this podcast is just this idea that, like, we're always learning from each other to figure out, like, what we need to do next. But there's kind of like this idea too, where it's kind of like you don't want to ask, like, your best friend what you should do with Theory Life, because, like, they're in the same exact position you're in. It's like you don't ask, like, your single friend how to get, you know, how to be in a relationship, you know, because, like, they're like, well, don't you think I would do that then? You know what I mean? And so it's like the same kind of deal where it's like, you want to ask someone who's like, way ahead of you. Like, that's what a freaking mentor is, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so, um, being able to take those strategies that you learned from that other company and bring them to someone who's like, trying to figure a lot of stuff out at once is so huge and brings, uh, so much value.

Speaker A: Yeah. It has a huge impact.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: You can really. That's the thing that I think drives me is like, where can I. The power rule, I guess. Where's the 20% lever that I can pull to get someone 80% results? That's totally what I'm just constantly chasing. And now it's great to do it for like 10, 15, 20 different people instead of just one mission.

Speaker C: Right? For sure. Yeah, definitely. And I love that you backpack. So that's also really fun. Like, I haven't done it a ton, but I backpacked like, the Mogollon Rim and in Greer, which is basically like a living painting. Um, I think it looks beautiful.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, see, I haven't done any backpacking in Arizona.

Speaker C: Oh, really?

Speaker A: I've mostly done backpacking. Probably, like, my best trip too, with travel was a three week road trip through some national parks on the West Coast.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, all the way up through to Canada. And we did over 50 miles of backcountry camping. Uh, and it was just so freaking eye opening. I still think so, so fondly of that time where it's just kind of resetting to what matters and, um, what your why is. And again, trying to spend what little time we do have helping those companies that align with your own values. I think that kind of clarity comes from being in nature and not having service. And it's such a treat nowadays to get that far out where you don't get the updates.

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, yeah, absolutely. I definitely love Backpack Me because of the simplicity. Like, you can only bring so much, just whatever fits all on your back. And so there's a simplicity to that that I really enjoy. Eliminates a lot of the planning shenanigans that can make some trips unfun. Um, but two, you're right. It's like, as a business owner especially, it's like you're so busy doing the thing and thinking about the next step and the next step and the next step and the next step, either for someone or for yourself, that it's like, man, having time to just like decompress is huge. I'm sure there's something to do with

Speaker A: fresh air too, but something to do with that green.

Speaker C: Right? It just, um, just might. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I mean, you touched on such a cool point that, like, backpacking, I feel like it's about shelter, food, and warmth.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's so few times in your life where it's like, oh, I'm going through the checklist and literally shelter, food, warmth, sleep. Shelter, food, warmth, sleep. Like, and it's such a nice clarity. As a founder, you're usually like, there's a hundred things on my plate. But there's two things that I really, really need to do, and I'm gonna avoid it by doing everything else. So totally. Backpacking kind of just forces that clarity

Speaker C: of like, keep my feet dry.

Speaker A: Yeah, you gotta get your feet.

Speaker C: Keep a fire hot.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Totally true. Um, and I say that because there was one time I took a trip and there was no hot fire because it rained and we didn't know what to do about it. So that was. Turns out no matter how much lighter fluid you use, you can't light wet wood. So lesson learned. Um, so, okay, so then what is. So you mentioned a little bit about, like taking like this, like, kind of like big company lessons to small people. Not small people, but to like beginning businesses. Right. Um, businesses that are still developing, figuring what they're all about and so on and so forth. So what do you feel is like your big differentiation, how you do what you do differently that helps you stand out. And you and I talked a little bit about it actually at the mixer. Um, and you kind of touched on it just now with like this like low hanging fruit idea. But you had talked about like the pain pill.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and I definitely, I don't know if that's what you want to cover, but I love that. But what do you feel like is your uniqueness.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's definitely part of it. I think the unique thing that I'm trying to bring to the industry of revenue operations is new way of thinking about revenue ops. Traditionally it's been customer success, sales and marketing. Um, and traditionally second time founders are the ones that really know when I need RevOps and what RevOps can do for me. So with this idea of modern RevOps, I'm trying to bring in another department. I'm trying to bring in product into revenue operations. I think that's something that especially young startups, um, they miss the mark on. And even if marketing, sales and customer success is tightened up and perfect, if your product team is chasing a feature roadmap that is 100 features deep and it's not guided by revenue goals, marketing, customer success and sales can do everything. But you're still going to churn customers because sales is selling something that isn't being delivered. You're still going to have reduced time in app because product is delivering features that customer success isn't. Hearing that people really want. That's gonna move the needle. So I think one of those things is bringing product into the purview that's a huge, huge benefactor. Because RevOps is all about the power rule. That's what I mentioned earlier. It's about finding the 20% lever that's gonna give you the 80% results. And if you're not including product in the purview, you're missing out on this massive growth lever and you're essentially gambling with your resources and product. If you're not assigning goals or if you're not thinking through why you're green lighting features.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So I think that's one thing that I'm doing differently. Another thing I'm doing differently is that I am trying to bring about the idea that your accounting and your CRM revenue should tell the same story. They don't need to perfectly match. I'm not going m for generally, uh, accepted accounting principles in my CRM. You know, by no means do I need my sales reps to be doing that, but at so many startups that I work with, I see that their bottom line for certain features or products or this or that do not match how the company feels internally about that product. So a great example is, um, company will release a new feature they Think that that's the thing that's driving you business or that's driving stickiness. Um, but then unfortunately, you realize that that feature actually kind of bankrupt your product team. They don't have any time left to build the next thing. Um, it didn't come up in a single quarterly business review with customer success. Maybe one customer asked for it, even though you have 50, and then you still spent all this hours on building it. So there's huge factors here that you can tighten up, um, and just kind of avoid mistakes. Because that's really what startups are about, isn't. It's not always making the right decision. It's avoiding the bad decisions. And RevOps can really help you do that if you're, um, even when you're getting them at a startup stage. Um, so to your point about, like a painkiller and a vitamin, I think that's what RevOps, at this stage that I'm working in is designed to do. So it's to find, hey, Mr. Founder comes to me with some massive pain. How can I solve that pain using the least amount of resources? Um, and half of that is just identifying the problem in a better manner. I mean, I'm always saying that a problem well identified is half answered. Like a problem well stated is half answered. Usually it tells you what the origin is.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Um, that tells you almost, you know, not only where you need to start looking, but where you need to start, um, branching out and maybe doing internal interviews or, um, going on the journey yourself, filling out the form yourself and seeing where's the sticking point for my customer. Um, and kind of what this all leads to is delivering a painkiller to the founder instead of, hey, I'm gonna build a system for you that's gonna take six months, and it's gonna take a year for you to see any feedback from this or growth from this.

Speaker C: No startup owners, they may not even make it a year.

Speaker A: They're not gonna make it a year if you do that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, some of my favorite stories have been when founders come to me with goals that we absolutely blow out of the water because they were just pulling one lever, and meanwhile they have two other options over here that they didn't even notice. Um, those are definitely my favorite projects where, um, to your point, it's delivering the painkiller, and then I reel them in with a vitamin, um, with a program where I can build out a different department. Um, now that I've shown you what I can do here, where you're like, real growth Lever was, let me do another one and another one. Um, because Rev Ops is all about finding what works. And then you standardize it, you automate it, and then you keep experimenting and finding something else for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's that there's so much of starting up, which is like, I just need to put this fire out as fast as possible because I can see five more. So being able to have something where you, uh, know, especially with it being rev is like being able to actually have some cash flow that can fund the fixing of other problems. Because some problems can really just be solved by money.

Speaker A: By money. Some problems can just burn. To your point, if you're seeing five fires, one of the fires might be with your $1,200 a month customer, and the other fire might be with your $50,000 a month customer.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: And meanwhile, I'm working with companies that are allocating the same resources to both. And it's like, come on. Like, you gotta literally, you can let the $1,200 fire burn if your product market fit is with the 50k customer or if that's the roadmap that you want to take in the future. Um, those are the kind of questions that you need to talk about because, yeah, to your point, sometimes it's just about knowing which of the balls that we're juggling are glass, which ones are rubber, which ones.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which ones are pointless and you should just get rid of. Definitely. Um, that's a big difference between the painkiller and the vitamin strategy is which one do I need to get done and which one is nice to have?

Speaker C: Well, I think from what I'm picking up, from what you're putting down is there's the two things that you are bringing to the table is, um, perspective and communication. Right. Like, because of your history, you have a different perspective on these problems, which I think is helpful. And then two, it's the communication, uh, piece, like, you're talking about looping in product. Um, I think that's huge, literally, because. And m. I'd love to hear you have a story on this as well. So be thinking about that. Um, but, uh, like, for example, I'm literally working with a client right now. They've launched a product that is not in the marketplace at all. Like, this is the first thing. And so it's really cool because it's like, man, there's all this opportunity. There's obviously the market share is all of it, um, you know, whatever you can grab. But it's also like, there's a lot of unknowns, of, like, what do people actually care about? You know, what does a founder care about compared to what the marketing cares about? Compared to what, like, the actual customer is using it and says, like, oh, I love this, or, oh, I don't like this. And so, um, we started doing regular meetings which are kind of like bringing in product because the owner's spearheading all of that. Um, where it's kind of like, okay, like, these are the conversations I'm having with customers. So this is what we need to talk about, because these are what we need to, like, fill in the gaps. This is what people are understanding and this is what's stopping them from using the product or utilizing it fully or stuff like that. So, um, similar but different. But, um, it's huge. And it just literally, the more everyone knows and has like, kind of like a group brain that I feel like the more you can improve on what you're doing. Without that, you're kind of just firing from the hip. Which, yeah, is great if you can afford to, but for startups you can. There's not like, oh, we've got, you know, 20 million revenue. Like, what are we going to do with this? You know, like, you don't have that when you're a startup. You kind of like, even if you have funding, you still have to, like, account for it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a perfect way to put it. It's like even a manual feedback loop is better than no feedback. Oh, yeah, and you're so right. I have a favorite phrase with startups that I use that's ready, fire, aim. Um, and a lot of startups that I work with will sometimes do ready, fire, and they forget the aiming portion, um, where, you know, once you do launch something, once you do Launch a feature, RevOps can also not only help you on the front end to set your goals and frankly put in a process for green lighting that feature, but once you have gotten the feature greenlit, once you've launched it, RevOps can now help you track which aspect of the feature is working best, who's buying the feature, which customer segment loves it, which one hates it. Um, how much pipeline did this drive? Like, all these different indicators that RevOps can now give you so that you can aim next time. Um, because a lot of startups, they get enough information, they get ready for something, they have a hunch, maybe, or they do have some pattern evidence, not anecdotal, to justify a venture or a new feature firing something, and then they don't give it The. The respect that it deserves by aiming afterwards. Because, I mean, to your point, if you're creating something new, you're kind of throwing pasta at the wall and you're seeing what sticks.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and, like, what sticks? You should look. Why did it stick? Why did it stick? What made it sticky? Um, who's eating that pasta? You know, all that kind of stuff so that you can get more to stick to the wall next time. Um, so totally ready, fire, aim is something that I try and encapsulate in these arrangements.

Speaker C: Um, as well, I like the order because I feel like sometimes what we call analysis paralysis, the just forever aiming where, like, you're never actually firing. Um, so you're getting ready and you're aiming and you're aiming and you're aiming and you're aiming, and then you keep waiting for, like, whatever data point you feel like you're gonna need to go the next step. Um, and then it doesn't come because maybe it doesn't exist or no answer is gonna be good enough for you because you're too scared or whatever. And this is like, you fire and then you aim. And that's a really hard one. I see that in the most entrepreneurial people I know is they are just. They say yes, and then they figure it out. And for me, with my personality type, that's terrifying. Is truly terrifying. Like, I am because I'm an enneagram5. And so, like, for me, like, competency is really huge. So I don't like to get myself in situations where my competency is up for guessing. And so, like, so it's really hard for me to do fire first.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Really hard.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but that's the process.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Here we are.

Speaker A: That's where I got to that discomfort.

Speaker C: I know. Well, you know, we're all grown in different ways. Like, I'm not. I didn't. I wasn't born ready to be an entrepreneur. So here I am learning. Um, do you have any specific story. It looks like a quick story of how you came in and freaking tweaked something and made some money.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think one of my favorite ones that really applies this product first thinking or bringing product into purview. Um, actually, this was a recent win, and it's awesome to see the impact it's had so far. I help this customer avoid over $100,000 in unnecessary costs at this time to their business, which, as we know, for a startup, is massive. Like, your Runway is what you live and die by. So, um, we helped do that. And we also helped reduce their product roadmap by over 60%. Um, they were one of those companies that had over 100 features on their product roadmap for 2025. Meanwhile, they haven't yet found product market fit. So you got a niche down, you got to stay in your lane. You have to really justify every hour that you're spending in product dev. Right. So this founder came to me when they were looking to hire their first product, uh, their first product manager. And they wanted Revops, um, as a system here. So the product manager, when they asked questions during the interview so the founder could answer better, um, they were noticing that the better qualified candidates would ask them about in app usage, they would ask them about revenue related data with features. And this guy didn't have the answers. Um, and meanwhile he could tell these were the candidates that he really wanted. They were the ones that were going to challenge him and teach him something. So what we did, um, we actually used two different technologies that I would recommend to anyone struggling with this even sounds like with the customer that you're working with. Um, it's a company called Craftful AI and another one called Fathom AI. They're both free, um, up to a certain level and I use them myself. Um, but we introduced those two products. Craftful AI basically analyzes any kind of customer feedback, any sort of data that you have in a bunch of different formats. Maybe it's gmail, maybe it's HubSpot, maybe it's a sheet, maybe it's a zoom recording, whatever it is digests all of your product feedback and gives you insights from it. So it's essentially an AI tool that helps product managers and the CEO is a product manager and is just crushing it in this product. It's very much one of those examples of an AI product that's just staying in one lane and doing one thing very, very well.

Speaker C: Got the heck out of that lane.

Speaker A: Love that we introduced Craftful to this company first. Um, started letting that thing do its work, analyze all the customer conversations this founder was already having. And then we also introduced Fathom AI, which gave him a lot more capability for recording conversations. And that kind of, they fed into one another. Um, with both of those two things, we could set up a dashboard for him where literally he now had a new hire dashboard for his product manager. Um, and I mean he hired a freaking rock star. And then this guy comes in within four weeks, he cuts their product roadmap, like I said, by over 60%. They now are working on delivering just 12 core new features and they're doing it one a month. So they have this whole marketing thing going on behind the scenes.

Speaker C: Oh, fast.

Speaker A: They hired the right person. Literally. This enabled them to hire so much better. So I can't even begin to imagine what would have happened if they had hired the wrong. The first product management hire for your product is just so, so crucial. So helping him nail that down, I think it's almost unknown what the opportunity cost is there, but the product roadmap is a massive green light that, hey, you were gonna focus on the wrong things if you didn't hire this guy. So there's a ton of saved hours there. Um, and the potential to really build a niche, to really find your product market fit. And second of all, this founder had actually already set aside budget for a second product manager for a report. The product manager that he was hiring. Right, this product manager, because he cut that product plan down, because he narrowed it all in. He had a heart to heart with the CEO and said, like, I don't need this person right now. I'll tell you when I do. Um, but immediately they were going to hire someone in January. This role typically plays between 80 to 100 at this level that they were looking at, especially where they were located. And they just cut that from the budget at the earliest. It'll be in July. Um, and the person that he hired is confident it won't be actually until 2026. So just huge wins in such a short amount of time. And this guy didn't even sign up for the whole program. He just wanted to talk to me about product. All he wanted was how do I bring product into my feedback loop, how do I bring them into my go to market operation? And it's just completely changed. And of course now we're going to work together on um, the vitamins. I would sure hope so because it proved this, this idea that product really needs to be in your feedback loop. Otherwise you're spending money where you shouldn't, you're wasting your resources and you're probably not delivering value where you really should be. So it's just kind of a, you're just like you said, you're wasting money, you're just running yourself further into the ground, uh, and you're not gonna know when it's gonna hit.

Speaker C: Yeah. Especially since stuff like that is so much pre work before it's pre revenue. You know what I mean? Like, like if you're, if you're going in like, you know, putting a, uh, freaking roof on a house, like you don't work on it for like six months before you go put the roof on.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Like you just, you go, you just go put it on. Whereas, like, especially with software, it's like you might be developing it for a freaking year before anyone ever sees it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Or whatever. You know, I'm hopefully not a year, but you know what I mean, it's like there's a lot of cost before you even get the tested on someone real. And then. Yeah, you want to make sure that was the thing. Or at least be the most confident.

Speaker A: Exactly. I mean, you hit the nail on the head just there. Like software can take. You're totally right. It's not a year anymore. It's like weeks now with everything that's out there.

Speaker C: I'm not a product guy,

Speaker A: but even that is a waste of time when you could be focusing elsewhere. Because right now what's separating startups is speed and market share. You see it with Slack, right. Microsoft Teams just absolutely blew Slack out of the water. But in 2020, everyone thought Slack was like the next greatest thing. And honestly, as a user of Slack and Microsoft Teams, Slack is better. I apologize.

Speaker C: I like Slack.

Speaker A: So the UX of Slack is better, but Microsoft Teams has just blown it out of the water because it shows the exact cycle. New technology is only new for a little bit. And then a tech giant is going to come in and do the same thing and they're going to market it to their way bigger audience. And even if it's not as good, it's going to grab all of your market share. Um, so the two most important things are speed and market share. And if you're delivering features that are not garnering one of those two things, you are wasting resources. Um, it's okay if like every tenth one doesn't do that because you were gambling on a hunch. Totally. There's a place and a time for that. But if all of your features just get greenlit because a customer asked for it, you're totally wasting resources. You're doing yourself a disservice for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Especially if you're not like, if you're not cutting edge, then you're already fighting an uphill battle with m existing. Like you said, existing market share. You know, Slack already existed. Yeah, it's too bad. I just, I have yet to find like a Microsoft UI I'm excited about. So, like, and I don't know what LinkedIn what it is.

Speaker A: Maybe it's LinkedIn, who knows? They just bought LinkedIn. I'm excited to see what happens there,

Speaker C: it turns into, like, color blocks. It's like, oh, I see what you did there. I know.

Speaker A: I have to say I'm excited because this is public and it's going on LinkedIn.

Speaker C: Um, I don't feel that same pressure. Um, uh, yeah, well, hopefully. I mean, I think Microsoft is totally random. Nothing to do with the podcast. I think Microsoft is making smart decisions because, what, they also bought Salesforce, they also added AI into it. I don't know when they bought Salesforce, it could have been forever ago, but regardless, they're integrating all these things together into, like, this freaking mighty software. And I was like this, someone's making some smart decisions, but their UI still sucks, so I'm still gonna be using Apple. Um, it's just the truth. Um, okay, cool. So kind of zooming back to you as the business owner of your own company.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: You've obviously done a killer job of getting revenue for others, but it's never the same when it's for yourself. One, because you have less time to do it because you're trying to freaking serve your customers. And then two, it's the same perspective issue with other people where it's like, you can help someone else, but sometimes it's hard to help yourself regardless. Not saying you have those problems. I have those problems. But, um, what has been excellent drivers of growth for your business? Has it been the way you explain it? Have you been in circles you've been in? Have you had just processes that have just killed it? Talk to us about how you've generated sales for yourself as a business owner.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, um, I have been blown away by LinkedIn. Um, that's a huge surprise for me, and I feel like this is really important. Everyone should listen here because this one is how I get all of my leads, all of my meetings come from LinkedIn, and it's all free.

Speaker C: I don't do sales navigator and stuff.

Speaker A: I don't do sales nav. I don't pay for ads. I don't pay for someone to do my content for me. Um, I have been absolutely shocked at the payoff that LinkedIn has brought. I will say there was an uphill battle. Um, I'm not huge in social media. Like, I've done my own purge on social media a couple years back. So LinkedIn ultimately is social media, and it's tough to get used to this environment again. Um, it was tough to kind of promote myself as opposed to a different company.

Speaker C: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: Um, but there's a couple people that I follow and have Followed for a while. There's, um, Hike Young Brenka Ballet, Um, Rinkaballet, I think it is. I probably mispronounce that. But, um, there are two, um, women professionals in startups that have achieved great success on LinkedIn, but they use their authentic voice on LinkedIn, and it's just so fun and refreshing to follow them. I learned something new. I feel like I know them even though I've never actually met them.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Um, and they've used it to catapult their own careers. So, um, originally I was thinking about LinkedIn when I was working for someone, who else? But I didn't start posting until I started working for myself. And it has just been, like I said, a game changer. I didn't even build a website because of what LinkedIn did for me. Um, I thought literally that I was gonna be spending resources on a website and on outsourcing those things, and instead it's just pushed up my Runway even further because now my website domain just redirects to my LinkedIn. Um, and it's like, it doesn't. It's not broke yet. Like, I don't need it yet. You know, I don't need the website yet. So it's one of those things where I was able to look at what's working and I realized, hey, I don't need to invest in a website. I've already got my 20% lever that's giving me back 80%.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I think the only other one that it's less of a surprise, but it's more of like, this is feedback that you're gonna hear all the time. And it turns out it's true.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, is again, authentic networking, networking with groups where I'm genuinely excited to go to this networking event. Like, almost any time where I've gone to a networking event and I'm like, uh, I feel in my, like, oh, I don't want to get ready. I don't even want to get dressed for this thing. I shouldn't go. I rarely meet people at that event. There's a reason that you don't want to go to those events. Um, and I found lately that events where, um, I'm learning something. So if I'm avoiding skill rot, if I'm learning about my own industry, I love the connections that I meet here. They make me better personally. They get. They allow me to give better service to my customers.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, to events that are focused on women and startups. That's been absolutely invigorating, super energizing. It Makes me feel less alone in what I'm going through. Um, and then three events that are, um, all about meeting other founders. That one, of course, always makes me feel less alone. Sometimes I get sales opportunities just handed in my lap, but more often than not, I meet service providers that can actually help me where I'm at. Um, so I think, like, authentic networking in person and on LinkedIn has been just completely explosive for me. Uh, I expect of the networking, I did not expect the LinkedIn. That's where I'm doubling down in 2025, and hopefully I'll keep that marketing budget super low.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Keep it right around zero. Well, effort counts for something, for sure.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, no, that's super cool. I love that. Um, I can't say I've invested enough time for LinkedIn to pay off in that way for me, but I would say that I have continually been surprised at the real conversations I've had, the real results in, the very little that I've done. Meaning, like, if I've gone and interacted on someone else's post and just responded to a couple people in the comments, um, I typically get a follow or two from that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Which is crazy. Um, again, good conversations, so on and so forth. Um, you know, it's been the most positive experience that I've had.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, in feeling like, okay, like, I got a little effort and I got a little results.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, meaning that if I give a lot of effort, I should have a lot of results, of which you are literally the poster child for that.

Speaker A: Um, there is a direct correlation there. I love that.

Speaker C: Yeah, very, like, kind of feels a little, like, linear, which is nice, because, like, I feel like for all the other social media channels, you're giving, like, an outrageous amount of effort for a little results, and then it builds to big results, and it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, I don't know if I can just assume, uh, sustain the amount of energy it's gonna take for the next year before I'm like, you know, thinking about, like, Gary Vee, talking about, like, he posted videos for three years before anyone watched. I'm like, not everyone has that kind of stamina, buddy.

Speaker A: They don't have the stamina they don't have. And, I mean, I think today, what's important to kind of drive this home. Because I know a lot of people are hesitant to adopt LinkedIn because, one, they open up their own LinkedIn feed and they see that it's cluttered by junk. Um, and they feel like maybe I don't have anything to add to the space. So to that I say less than 1% of LinkedIn users post regularly on LinkedIn.

Speaker C: It's true.

Speaker A: If you start posting, you will interrupt the noise. Like that noise that you're seeing is what everyone else is seeing. So if you interject your authentic voice in there, it's gonna stand out.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Two, and this one is just kind of, um. I forgot what I was gonna say. So let me think about that for a second. You said, um, two. The second thing is, um, you hit the nail on the head by mentioning comments. Um, a lot of people kind of get in their head about posting regularly and ah, I have had a ton of success with just leaving value add comments. That's what gets you into someone else's bubble. Um, that's what gets you into the network of someone who you don't maybe see often. You kind of get onto someone who's got 20,000 followers. You start tracking when they post their content and you leave value add comments and their entire network will start seeing your thoughts and your feedback. And that's where you get those followers, you get those real authentic connections. Um, there is one person on here. For anyone that's hesitating about LinkedIn. I really like a company called Notice Media. Um, literally Notice me is in parentheses Media. Um, the founder is a guy called Josh Kahns, um, and he lives and breathes his LinkedIn theory, which is that selling is changing. People are now coming to you with a short list of the people that qualify. By the time they reach out to you for your services, they already know that you're qualified and they have one or two other people. And the reason they're reaching out to you is basically to make sure that what you put out there matches the first impression that they're going to give you. So, so that's why LinkedIn is moving to bottom of funnel content. And this guy Josh really does that, where he publishes the value that he's gonna give you as a founder. Open for free. It's literally in his LinkedIn posts. And that's what attracts people to his profile. And then it's also what ironically gets him the sale, even though they're just buying what he's already giving away for free. Yeah, um, but it's because it's harder to do, of course, than to just read about. Um, but two, it's because they're consuming the bottom of the funnel content and when they come in the top of the funnel, there's no surprises. It matches exactly what he's been saying it's a really easy sales cycle.

Speaker C: Because he's authentic.

Speaker A: Because he's authentic. And, um, that's how all selling is happening now. People are expecting bottom of funnel content before they even speak to you. They're expecting to know about your pricing, they're expecting to know exactly what you're bringing to the table. No one is Interested in a 30 minute discussion followed up by a demo, followed up by XYZ before you even see pricing. And then it's like, oh, well, cool, I can't buy this. So, like, what a waste of my time. No one has time at startups. So, um, this, this bottom of funnel content is really changed. Um, changed the game for me on LinkedIn. And like I said, notice media. I recommend everyone follows them.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, turn on alerts and learn something.

Speaker C: I like that. No, it's super fun, I think having a couple people that you've. Because you're right, there's, there's a ton of people. It doesn't feel like it's 1%. I can tell you for a fact it doesn't feel that way. So it blows my mind when I hear that number. Um, and then it's like, wow, okay, so that's really exciting to have that kind of level of opportunity, which is basically unheard of. Um, I also think there's a lot of people who make profiles that don't ever revisit them, but let's just say that, let's just say 1%'s like massively wrong. Yeah, maybe it's 10% or 5%. That's still basically nothing.

Speaker A: Still massive.

Speaker C: Um, so, yeah, so there's that. I also find that like, just like anything else, like curating your feed with like maybe unfollowing people that you shouldn't follow. Because, like, I've definitely gotten myself into Fishbowl, like out of my own curiosity. I find like I follow a bunch of, uh, our other marketing people. But then you've kind of created your own fishbowl, like, where like all I do is go on LinkedIn and like listen to other people, marketing people talk about marketing and it's like, that's literally not why I'm on here. Yeah, I'm literally on here to get a customer not to like hear like what your thoughts are in this cool little bullet point.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: You know what I mean?

Speaker A: And it's like, especially if they have the exact same thoughts as you. I think sometimes that's useful. But sometimes it's like, okay, I need to follow marketers that are advancing my class or they're in a specific sector of marketing that I'm interested in or that I don't have knowledge in. Like, two to your point, you've gotta. You have to curate your network so that it brings value to you. Um, because that's the only way that you're gonna keep going back to posting on LinkedIn.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Um, it has to bring some value right away, even if it's not the meetings right away, because it will usually take, like, two to six weeks of warming up your profile and then you'll start getting these. But, um, now I genuinely wake up on Monday and I look at my calendar and I have meetings booked and I didn't, like, do much for them. And it's absolutely incredible. It's completely changed my own Runway. It's changed all the plans that I had for the first six months, um, in my business. And it's definitely the number one thing that I tell founders to get help with if they don't feel comfortable on it. And it's not even in. It's not even in my purview, and I feel that strongly about it. So, like, totally. That's, um, a lever that everyone should be pulling right now for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. I like that. It always makes me a little laugh a little when someone's like, I don't know if I feel comfortable with that. I'm like, I don't even know what

Speaker A: you mean with yourself, with your thoughts.

Speaker C: Like, you don't feel comfortable posting what you do every single day for people who are your customer.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay, cool. Well, whatever works for you. Oh, well, uh, granted it took me a long time to convince myself to go to a networking group, but that's in person, so, like, the rejection factor is a little more intense.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Even I did that. And I'm introverted. So you know what I mean? What's going on?

Speaker A: What's holding you back? Totally.

Speaker C: So what would you say is the most, like, interesting takeaway you've had in your industry? Like, surprising thing that now that you've been into it for so long, that maybe is like, a common misconception or just, like a real surprise for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Biggest surprise since starting is finding out RevOps is useless unless a culture of accountability already exists at the organization that I'm working with. So what I mean by that is I can build. I can build pipeline forecasts, I can build systems for expansion and mitigating churn and referral systems and a pretty KPI dashboard and all These things. But absolutely none of it matters if senior leadership isn't going to hold people accountable to the processes, to the systems, to following the path. Um, I've seen this happen at companies where you build an entire path for people to follow and they simply go elsewhere. They go and chart their own course. Um, while they might find success, that's great. But here's a more efficient path to success. Here's where you don't have to be running your head into the wall trying to reinvent the wheel. Um, I find that the best way to identify this with new customers. The biggest red flag for me is when customers come to RevOps searching for alignment. Um, alignment is a culture thing. Alignment is a CEO's responsibility. Um, I can put the systems in place to make alignment possible, to drive alignment. But just like with that perfect KPI dashboard, if I put up the ARR and pipeline or your North Star goals and then your CEO comes in and starts asking about meetings on the calendar and what's the frequency of dials or something like that, absolutely none of what I had ready matters. Um, and that's been the absolute biggest learning, is that if a company isn't already designed for accountability and upholding systems and processes, they will not be after utilizing RevOps services. Those are clients that I now have to turn away because otherwise I'm going to be banging my head on the wall wondering why it's not working when ultimately it was never going to work because no one's going to be held accountable to these processes.

Speaker C: That makes so much sense. Um, the visionary in me loves the idea of coming up with a cool idea and figuring out how it's gonna work.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: I don't really enjoy following it. So I can see what you're saying where like the CEO or the founder has to be ready to commit to the process that they say they want to do. Because that is not the same thing. Because I can tell you that's not the same thing. For me it's like, oh, that's a really cool idea. I love that. I could totally see that working. Well, I'm gonna go look up other cool AI softwares now. You know what I mean? And it's just like, like what just happened, you know what I mean? And I can't. I can hold me kind of accountable, but then I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna let myself off the hook.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: So you know what I mean? So like, yeah, it's so nice. That makes a ton of sense that that's a Challenge. And it makes sense too, because then you can't do parts like you talked about. The other five fires that are happening. You can. Can never get to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, because you're literally creating them. People are following their own paths. They're going to make their own fires, they're going to run into problems.

Speaker C: Oh, I know founders like that.

Speaker A: Suddenly now it's like, oh, which one do I fix? And of course, as a RevOps person, you're always going to lean to fixing the thing that's impeding someone else's ability to do their work. Um, and then that's how you end up with a rev Ops person that's doing all ops and no strategy. Um, but it starts with doing strategy and then not executing, um, because execution always trumps the strategy. Um, ultimately you can talk all about how you're gonna do XYZ to get to B or whatever the case might be, and then suddenly you just do A B, F, X and you learn nothing. And you have no idea how you got to that result. So, um, yeah, I think that's the biggest learning is, um, it turns out it's not internal. It's not my fault, actually.

Speaker C: That's fair.

Speaker A: There has to be accountability and systems in place, um, some kind of culture of accountability in place for RevOps to really shine, to give the growth and the, um, not just the revenue, but the speed of revenue that people are looking for. Um, consistently we find that companies with RevOps get not only 15% more revenue, but they grow to profitability 19% faster. Um, and none of that's going to happen unless people are following the systems that you're building.

Speaker C: For any of you that don't know, she is a delight at networking events. Um, you were literally like a highlight of. Besides seeing literally a friend that I've known for like 10 years there out of like, randomness, um, you were a delight to meet. And so that positive energy that you, you want to be bringing, you are. And so that's. That was really exciting. It was, it was a highlight of my, my time there.

Speaker A: Thank you. That's really great to hear. Yeah, I appreciated meeting you as well.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, good, because I, on the other hand, have to force myself to go all these. So. But then I'm like, oh, I'm m ordering a cocktail and hanging out with people, so I guess this isn't really all that bad.

Speaker A: Got this great view of Camelback, you know.

Speaker C: Dude, that's the most money I've ever spent on alcohol in my life. So anyways, it was very expensive. We went to. For those who don't know, we went to what, Caesars Republic, I think it was.

Speaker A: Yeah. In Old Town.

Speaker C: Old Town Scottsdale. And, like, I almost spent $30 per cocktail. I'm like, literally made me want to throw up.

Speaker A: Well, I found out after the event that the cocktails were not provided. Um, they weren't free. They were paid for.

Speaker C: You thought they were free?

Speaker A: I got all my cocktails for free that night. I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker C: Are you serious?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Oh, my Lord.

Speaker A: So I heard this from multiple people and I was like, so someone either

Speaker C: paid for it, so you just, like, grab it and just walk off. You're kidding me right now? They were $27 each. I kid you not.

Speaker A: Okay, well, if you partner with me for rev ups, I'll avoid those unnecessary costs.

Speaker C: Oh, my. See, you figured it out. You're like, you know how I can get more revenue not paying for the cocktails I'm drinking. I love that. That's fantastic. Okay, so clearly, when I asked the question, where can people. People connect with you? LinkedIn. Right. So connect with you on LinkedIn, please. Um, and we'll, uh, have a link to that in the. I was gonna say show notes. I don't do show notes, but I'll have it in the description so people can get connected with you. Um, and, uh, I'm on LinkedIn as well because I think it's fantastic. So. But yeah, follow her on LinkedIn. Um, and, uh, anywhere. Anywhere else or anything else that you want people to do besides book a meeting for your Mondays so you feel like heck.

Speaker A: Yeah, please. So I can. No, I think really book a meeting if you have any questions, um, or if you're feeling stuck or unsure, um, about what RevOps can do for you.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Um. Because all of my. Every revenue accelerator program that I do, it sounds. Program makes it sound like it's cut and paste, but honestly, there's a lot of customization that goes in each one. And like I said earlier, it's about finding the right lever. So even if a customer doesn't sign up with me to do the work, I'm still going to tell you honestly, this is where I think you should do the work. It's a valuable conversation either way. And whether or not you let me do that work for you, that's a whole other thing. But, um, either way, I want to help small businesses in America succeed. I've seen the impact they can make for themselves, for their communities. And if anyone has any questions related to Revops. Like, just like he said, book the meeting. There's a link right in my profile. Um, send me a DM M. Send me a connection request. I'm always happy to help.

Speaker C: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you guys for watching. Thank you for watching another episode of the Death of In Law podcast. And, um, catch you on the flip side.

Speaker B: Want to cause no problems? I just want to live my life. But I keep on hearing about nonsense. Me and my don's ain't mobsters, but you know when you see imposters, we know how to read them faces. Same way you know how to read them comments. M if you want to talk, let's talk. But around here, make sure you walk and your talk is constant.