Version 4.5 Diversity Thoughts

Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Cyber Life podcast. My name is Ken Nutterhill, your host. In this episode. I wanted to share, uh, another podcast that I had done actually I was a guest on a podcast, uh, speaking on diversity. And for those that know me on LinkedIn, obviously I'm a pasty white guy. So you might be saying like, what the heck does he have to say about diversity? What does he even know about it? But I've been in a lot of actually, uh, predominantly interracial relationships, uh, throughout my life. I've had my own experiences and I've had other people confide in me with their experiences and I don't go into on this episode, however, I do talk about diversity. I talk about at least my thoughts on it and uh, the strategy behind it. And spoiler alert, it's not hiring a diversity officer. So I just want to share this episode to my audience as well. Um, that other podcast I did, this is a newer podcast and so they don't have a, necessarily a big reach. So I just want to share this out there and hopefully the messages, uh, in it resonate with some people and, and uh, help the world become a little better place for all of us. And so the other thing I want to mention is don't Forget the CyberLife TV show is going to be launching in November. So we're just about there, right? We're right now in October in Cybersecurity Awareness Month. And so it's going to be launching in November on the Mecca Stream. So M E C C A stream S T R E A M um, it's going to be launching on that channel. So it's going to be going out Wednesday nights, 8 o', clock, your local time. So it doesn't matter, matter where you are in the world. My uh, understanding is that it's your local time and so basically you can watch it on your, you know, as you want, um, as episodes come out usually, uh, from what the, uh, from what the production team tells me, it's probably going to take two to three days. And then those videos after they launch live will then go into a repository. It's kind of like a Netflix, right? You know, a lot of people on uh, LinkedIn have been calling it Kenflix. So, um, keep an eye out for that. You know, I know some people want to binge watch. They're pretty busy. It's Wednesday nights, right? Some people have things going on. Uh, it seems like, like every conference is like a Wednesday night. It's kind of weird here in 2020 um, so again, this episode's about diversity. Hopefully you enjoy it. And uh, again, keep an eye out for the Cyber Life TV show. I know you, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you've seen me posting about different, uh, press releases. It, I'm a pretty humble guy. Anyone that actually talks to me will tell you that I'm a humble guy. Um, but you know, growing up extremely poor, this is a huge deal to me to number one have a TV show as well as actually see that I've got a press release like being published. Right. You know, like what? Um, so it's a huge deal for me and sometimes I'm a little too modest, people tell me. But, um, you will see me kind of talking about it on LinkedIn. Uh, and it again, I'm not trying to gloat or anything. It's just for me it's a huge deal. And those are little posts that I try to do just to, you know, for other people might be inspiration. Right. And so that's why I kind of do that stuff there. So without further ado, let's take a look at and listen to this episode.

Speaker B: Welcome everyone to our continuing episode of, uh, Addressing the Elephant in the Room. I am April Balasaro, the founder of One Light Ahead. And Jason is joining us, uh, from Exceptional results now and we're going to have all kinds of fun conversation with Kenneth. And Kenneth, you are a powerful CEO and a very powerful company and I'm going to let you give all of the details because you have a global impact that it's going to be very important to our clients and people listening to us.

Speaker A: Yeah. First off, thanks April and Jason for having me on. I definitely appreciate it. So I'm Ken Underhill. I'm CEO of KNL Tech and also CEO of Cyber Life. And so I have a podcast called cyberlife podcast, about 5,000 or so downloads. I'm launching my own television show in November of uh, 2020 called CyberLife. Affectionately enough.

Speaker B: Affectionately. I love that.

Speaker A: Yes. Uh, uh, to help improve diversity in the industry and kind of showcase individuals that typically don't get a voice in cybersecurity, uh, as well as educate the general public on cybersecurity topics because it can be scary sometimes. And so uh, I want to try to break things down and make them less complex. Um, many people know me, I'm a multi award winner in the industry, in the cybersecurity industry. I've won numerous awards. I'm up for more awards this year. But uh, like I say that it's a community. Right. Winning the award is not just me. And uh, I've got a few million students globally, both in business courses. So digital marketing, etc. As, uh, well as cybersecurity. That's sort of my bread and butter. I keep mentioning it. I've been featured in a number of publications, uh, Forbes, Reader's Digest, uh, which for me actually is a fond one, uh, simply because that grandmother of mine that's now deceased, um, loved Reader's Digest. I mean you'd go to her house and she'd have them everywhere. And so, uh, she obviously wasn't alive to be able to see that. But for me that's, that's one of the most powerful ones, uh, as well as things like medium, uh, dark reading, which is cybersecurity focused. One Voyage, Houston Tech Republic. And I don't like to talk about myself too much, uh, but just kind of give some context of who I am, what I do. I've been doing online courses for a number of years. Um, and then, uh, with KNL Tech, we do, um, digital marketing for cybersecurity companies. We also help companies improve the revenue generation online. Uh, and as I mentioned, Cyber life is focused more around producing the show.

Speaker B: And Kenneth, you have, uh, a whole wealth of information there, and you're going to find out that as Jason shared with you, our gift to you is to put you on the hot seat and to address your diversity conversation. Because it sounds like that's the elephant you want to address today.

Speaker A: It is. Yeah. Let's go ahead and address that big elephant in the room and educate me

Speaker B: what specifically about that. Jason's going to line you up for many more questions, so I'm just going to prepare you for that.

Speaker A: And that's okay. Keep them coming. So when I talk about diversity, we can talk broader right around corporate America in general, or just any business. Right. Not just corporate America, but I specifically wanted to focus on the cybersecurity industry because, uh, there's been some studies done, one of them by ISC Squared, which is a certification, ah, body or provider in the industry. And one of the things they found is that there's roughly, I forget the exact number. It's about 25 to 26% of the industry is actually diverse. Um, my own experience is many of those individuals don't get a chance to go into certain roles that they really are qualified for. And when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about managerial executive level. Uh, so we're still seeing that there's that barrier to entry. Regardless of how many companies hire a diversity officer, that doesn't mean that things are actually changing. Right. So that's the big elephant in the room that yes, especially in 2020 more people are seem m to be aware of some of these issues. But I still feel that we have a long ways to go.

Speaker C: So Ken, I'm going to feed off of that and I'm going to ask you, uh, from the standpoint of the people that you talk to, um, and really identifying uh, the opportunities of leadership, how are other people looking at this issue? Is it something where they're actually open and willing to have the conversation or is this really something that you're bringing to the table to because nobody else wants to address?

Speaker A: Well, I think it's a mixture. Right. I think there's a lot of people that whether they consciously do it or not, are ignoring the issue. Right. M. It's not my problem or at my company we're very diverse. It's not our issue. Um, but it really is everyone's issues. And then the secondary part of that is there are some people um, that just don't have a clue. Right. We've seen that in 2020 people like, oh, I didn't realize these things were happening like they've been happening for hundreds of. Where were you? Um, it's just that sort of thing. Right. So this is nothing new in my perspective because I've seen a lot of people uh, discussing it. However, I have a different voice than other people. Maybe this will get through to some people and lead to some change in some capacity. Right. And that's sort of my goal with this.

Speaker C: So another question for you. And I actually have a background in uh, uh, cybersecurity. Uh although it's you know, a long time since I've really practiced. Obviously it's a, it's a uh, industry that has been dominated by white men and tech in general is dominated by white men. And you as a white male bringing this issue to a lot of people, they're going to look at you with sort of a double edged sword. Why is he bringing this out? And yeah, it's great that he's doing it, but why him? So how would you approach that?

Speaker A: Number one, I don't care what people think. Uh, my spouse is black. Um, I've been in interventional relationships for a good predominant portion of my life. That doesn't mean that I'm the person that should be speaking on it or that I'm not the person that should be speaking on it. For me it's more about. I had to learn this when I created online courses because there were so many people out there already with courses on hacking and forensics. And, you know, and these were people that I, uh, was just kind of getting my start. Right. I had worked a few years in the industry, and I wanted to share my knowledge. And so I think a lot of times we may get a sense of imposter syndrome, right? Of like, well, maybe we shouldn't be the ones. And yes, there's always going to be someone saying, well, because you have white skin, you don't really understand. Uh, yes, right. I. I don't. I'm not black. Right. I'm not Latino, and I don't understand from that concept. But I have experienced things, right? I've been removed from a vehicle, drug out of a vehicle by police, right? Because of. I. Because I'm in an interracial relationship. Uh, we face discrimination from everybody, right? It's not white people, it's not black. We get from everyone, uh, no matter where we go, right. We live in the South. It's not just in the South. So to me, it's kind of a naive for someone to. To look at someone else and say, you can't be that person because of who you are or where you're from. Right. Um, I can't. Sorry to disappoint. I cannot change. I can't poof, you know, and be someone else. I can only be me. And so my response to those people is, I don't care about your opinion. If you don't want to listen to me or learn from me or have me be the person, then go find someone else. Right? Find someone else to follow or to listen to. That can be, uh, a voice that you relate more with. But there's someone else out there that. That only relates to my voice. And it doesn't matter who they are or what ethnicity or where they came from. I'm the person that they relate to. And when I bring it up, they take it seriously. So to those people, I ignore them. Right? I ignore the haters, as I'll call those people. And I can just surface it on my end, and if they don't like it, they can go someplace else.

Speaker B: There is so much there. Uh, you know, it's interesting. Ken and Kenneth, or Ken, do you prefer.

Speaker A: Either is fine. I prefer Ken, but either is fine.

Speaker B: Excellent. So, Ken, I listened to your video about you being an ethical hacker, and, uh, I thought it was such an interesting terminology. And then listening to what you just shared about why I don't really care about their opinion. And I really want to call that out for a minute again to put those tough questions in place, because in all reality, you're sharing an opinion, and you're sharing a perspective, and you're sharing. And I'm curious. And I think this would be a valuable opportunity for. And what we work to do in addressing the elephant is bringing it up in a way that says I have value and I'm equipped, and I have the ability to speak on this, and then I also have the ability to see it from another perspective. So if for just a minute, you were to contemplate another perspective or, you know, when I heard ethical hacker, I'm like, well, that's an interesting conversation, right? That'd be another elephant, another day, right? Uh, yet, uh. And it was a wonderful video of how you went about sharing that, but in the same. And all that set up. So what equipped you to be a voice and to be, uh. And what would put somebody in a place to hear from your perspective, whether they like it or not? Sure.

Speaker A: I think the thing to keep in mind is we've all gone through some type of adversity in life. Um, my own was growing up extremely poor. A lot of times I didn't have food. I, uh, mean, I ate tree bark. I ate grass because I saw my cat doing it. I was like, well, maybe that's food. You know, I ate. Uh, I grew up in the north, so in the wintertime, um, I love pine trees because the icicles, right. They would get the sweet SAP and stuff in them. So that gave you a little, like, uh, a little sweet treat in the winter. And so I've faced so much adversity in my life, as many people have. And yes, maybe not all of it's around racism, but I think the aspect of any one of us has experienced some kind of adversity. Um, even if you grew up in the nicest neighborhood, your parents might have beat you every day, right. And nobody noticed that because you grew up in the nice neighborhood and dad was a pastor and mom was, you know, a teacher, and nobody would have suspected what was going really. What, uh, was really going on in the home. And so I think from a perspective of, uh, authority or authenticity, I think the only thing you can do as an individual is speak from your experience, the struggles you've gone through, and share your story. And whether or not you have an exact match for everyone out there, that's really irrelevant. Right. And, you know, you kind of mentioned the ethical Hacker thing. I can tell you right now that there are people that are much better at, ah, uh, breaking into a computer legally than I am, right? There's always someone better than you. But I can share my stories, right? I can share my struggles, my experiences in doing that. And that might be the difference between someone going to be a hacker or going to some other career path. Uh, and then in the aspect of diversity, me speaking might be the difference between someone taking it seriously, as I mentioned before, versus someone else. Not so the qualification again, going back to, I just had to learn over the years to stop caring what other people thought about me. And it's really just all I can do is share my story, what I've gone through and what I've heard others go through. And honestly, if someone out there is like, well, I still don't care, great, like I said, go listen to somebody else, learn from somebody else. Because we all have somebody that we can learn from, right? Like I bought thousands of courses, you know, online over the years and there's so many of them. Like, I buy them and I never take them because I'm like, I can't really. This person sucks, right? And I probably shouldn't have bought it first. But uh, you know, you, you learn kind of who you can learn from. And so as the instructor, as the teacher, or as the individual bringing it up, whatever the topic is, you just have to really understand that you can only share your message, your stories. And not everyone's going to be helped by you, but they might be helped by somebody else. And possibly you sharing your story created, uh, the little spark in someone else and then they become that instructor later on that then teaches that first person that hated your guts, right? So you just never know how it's really going to work out.

Speaker C: So Ken, I think one of the things that's important for listeners to know and understand is in terms of the, uh, cyber industry and truthfully, security, you know, technical security, um, is there a lot of demand for jobs right now?

Speaker A: You know, that's the thing, right? In the media you'll see a ton of demand for jobs. What we're finding is a couple of things, right? And I know, uh, you've been out of the industry for a little bit, but what we've noticed are a few things. Number one, job descriptions are totally not good, uh, whatsoever. Uh, you know, entry level roles are requiring certifications that take you five years to get. You know, five years experience to get. That's a big thing. Uh, a lot of companies that I've seen are not training up people like they used to. So they're not going to take an entry level and train them. They kind of expect you to have the experience. So when we look at the actual openings, predominantly from what I've seen, they want at least a couple of years experience, right? And then the worst, we're getting all these people that we train, but these are all entry level. So we kind of have the conundrum, right? We're like, we need people with experience, but we won't let them get the experience. So we're kind of just like this. And so the, uh, media, like I said, you'll always see it, millions of openings, right? And that's yes but no, right? Yes and no. Uh, it doesn't mean you should go spend 100 grand in a boot camp tomorrow for cybersecurity and try to get in. It's better if you kind of take a step back and ask some people in the industry and figure out the best route, uh, to get in.

Speaker C: And from the standpoint of diversity, is this one of the challenges to overcome just in terms of the limited experience and exposure that a lot of people are given? So therefore getting into the industry is

Speaker A: more difficult to some extent, it's a little more difficult. It's more about exposure. Right. Um, a good example is my spouse when I was teaching her web development. And so growing up in her school, they. There's nothing like that. Right. And we're both a little older, so computers, uh, to us was really Oregon Trail growing up. Um, but when I showed her, like, how easy it was to do some coding, she was like, oh, I wish I had learned this way back then. But I never saw anyone that looked like me doing these things. Right. And that's the issue we have is we have children growing up, these young individuals growing up, and they don't necessarily see, especially if they come from, uh, a background like I did with poverty, they're not seeing these individuals in these job roles, right? They're seeing, okay, well, maybe I can be a doctor or a lawyer, but I don't have money for college, right? So that's the only people I see as a doctor or lawyer that's maybe looks like me, but there's so many jobs out there, especially in cybersecurity, that individuals are doing, but these children aren't seeing someone that looks like them doing it. Right. And it's just, it's. It's kind of difficult to explain. But once I learned that, like, I related it back to experiences my own Life where, like, if I saw someone that looked just like me doing it, or that came from my, my, you know, poverty background doing it, I felt at that point that I could actually do it. Right. But until I found that person and saw them doing it, it didn't matter if, you know, April was doing it, because I was like, well, April, you know, had. Came, came. Uh, and I don't know this, but April came from a good home and her parents were wealthy. And, you know, like, I couldn't relate to that. Right. And so that. I think that's the bigger issue here. And there are programs out there that are trying to change that, but we still have a long ways to go is children are not necessarily seeing people in these roles or, you know, that look like them. Right. Or they're not even being exposed to these roles in certain areas of both this country and globally. And so I think in my mind, when I talk about diversity, yes, there's a part of it for people in the industry where we're trying to, you know, sort of fix the issues we have. But I think long term, we have to think bigger and get more children from a more diverse background into this industry, get them interested in it, and that's how we actually fix the issue.

Speaker B: And Ken, what do you think would intrigue people, uh, to address that elephant and say, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's not just diversity overall, but to narrow diversity into this, your specific industry, and how we open it up to more, uh, roles, more people. What do you think would be an enticing factor? What do you think would be a powerful pathway? How does that happen?

Speaker A: Sure, I think you have to start children young, right? Eight, nine, ten, even six. I mean, I know some kids are like five and six. That could really show me up. Uh, and I won't say their names because they'll show me up on the, uh, hacking skills. But we have to start them young because that's where you can spark the, uh, interest. That's where children are very creative, Right. They're not getting told no, no, no by society all the time, and all the dreams are crushed. We still got them young. We can kind of mold them, develop them, let them explore different areas of the industry. And that's what we have to do. Right? So that takes embedding in the school systems. That takes programs that go in to these schools around the world and say, hey, look, we're gonna hack some things today, right? We're gonna crack a password or, hey, let's pick some locks, right? Let's do some physical security stuff. Um, so there's all these different areas of security. I mean, there's literally thousands of different ways you can specialize. So we really have to expose it. And the way to do that is to get him. Get them young and kind of bake ourselves in, right? So how we bake security into a lot of things in the industry. Bake it into our coding and all that stuff. With DevSecOps, we want to also bake in security to the schools, right? To the children. We have to start them young, we have to get them interested young. And it can't be boring stuff. It has to be fun. Uh, uh, one of the things I like to do, and in fact, you guys will see that when I launch the show, is I use candy. So I'll explain concepts with candy. We'll have, you know, kids love candy. I love candy. We all love candy. Um, so you just have to kind of relate it to things that they're gonna be interested in it, right? Maybe a game. Right. Maybe you teach them through a game or something like that. Just different ways we can do it. But at the end of the day, we have to figure out how to bake it into our culture at a young age.

Speaker C: Ken, I'm gonna ask you, going back to the main elephant of diversity and really looking at it from the challenge that you face as a leader and having a culture that currently is predominantly white male, what you just mentioned is really about developing personality and character in young people to really look at this industry as a future opportunity, which is awesome. Um, but in terms of the right now dealing with diversity, what is or what are the key points for having that conversation with the existing leadership? How should we, you know, grow forward from this conversation to have this, uh, to discuss with other men like yourself, and really open up their eyes to both women, people of color, different cultures, and really understand that personality and character are important in terms of job description, because that's really what you're looking for, not just the person that's got a couple of years experience.

Speaker A: Multiple things in that question. Um, I'll say like that. Multiple things. Um, so as far as the diversity portion of that, it really has to be conversations, right? So for me, I have a very large, um, following. You know, very fortunate for that. And a lot of times when I get in these conversations with individuals that look like me, that don't traditionally understand the value, it's just more about someone that they going back to social media, right? Someone that they know like and trust. Me, it's really, that's what it's about. It almost from my experience so far, it has to be sort of a one on one or a small, a smaller conversation with key individuals that then disseminate that throughout their organizations, their networks, etc. Um, it's not easy, I can tell you right now. I've battled in some, some very non melanated rooms, right. You know, very pale rooms. And there's, there's just some people are ingrained with um, stereotypes. Some people are ingrained with thinking that there's not an issue, that's not something we're going to fix right away, right? There's always going to be prejudice, there's always going to be bias. The thing to keep in mind is that um, in one interview, I'm thinking through one individual in particular, um, that was extremely prejudiced, maybe still is, but at least they're not open about um, took a while to kind of battle against them and get them to really understand what was going on. Right? And that also took sharing stories of individuals, getting them on the phone with individuals where they could share their stories. There's a lot of crying and stuff involved. And now these are grown men crying their eyes out, right? So it has to start, it's weird to say, but it has to start small. It has to start in those water cooler conversations. It has to start in those boardrooms. It has to start with executives talking to each other. And um, you have to kind of think of it as a strategic chess play, right? This is not checkers. We are not going to change this by tomorrow. I know we kind of talk about what can we do in the short term, but like we are not changing this in 2020. Uh, thankfully 2020 is almost over with. We're tired of all the things. But um, we're not changing it this year, next year. This is a chess move, right? So we need to put certain people in certain places, have certain conversations. So 10 years from now, 20 years from now, that young black woman that's fully qualified walks in that day to that company and because she's been working hard, she gets promoted to ciso, right? That's what, that's what I'm doing. That's what, that's what people like myself are doing, whether it's white people, black people, whatever. Strategic plays, right? So that's the only way. This is one. Strategic plays in a chess mindset. So when we talk about short term things we can do as individuals, we can have those conversations, right? We can start bringing it Up. Bring, uh, a voice to it. Bring a bigger voice to it. Have those conversations. Use sales techniques to have those conversations, right? You're selling something, you're selling an idea, a mission, a movement. You're selling change, right? Think of yourself as a salesperson going into those conversations and you have to understand, okay, well, how is, what is the perspective of the other side and ah, what problems are they trying to solve? Right? And how can I pivot this conversation to include the diversity and at the same time help them see that this is a solution to their problems that they've had for, you know, for years. Right. And I'm not saying that to say that a white person is, you know, worse for the role than, you know, minority person. Like, that's not what I'm trying to say here. You know, I know there's gonna be people watching this, like, arrr, you know, typing on the keyboard. Um, but what I'm saying is that we need to give visibility, right? And it's got to be a chess move type of visibility. Not checkers, right? Sometimes we get caught up in the checkers moves like, oh, that's an easy win. Let's hire, let's hire a diversity officer. That's going to change everything, right? If not right, that's a good move. But reality is, from what I've seen, most of them spend a couple years in the role before they're kicked, you know, to the curb by the. So that's a checker's move. We have to play chess, right? We have to think long term. And how are the things that we're doing today impacting future generations and actually solving the long term problem in the industry? Because I can tell you right now, criminal hackers are not going anywhere. They're having a field day right now. I mean, you guys are seeing all the ransomware attacks and everything. You can buy ransomware for a few bucks in the dark web and get it spun up, right? So it's not going anywhere. And if we don't start addressing the issue now by playing chess instead of checkers, we're never going to win.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: To wrap up on Jason, I'll let you finish on any final questions. Uh, and just know, uh, that as you said, there's so many conversations here. And, uh, although what you said in regards to the chess is so powerful, because, I mean, if you were to think 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 50 years ago, this conversation would be a completely different conversation. So the gift is we are having that conversation. We are. I mean Many people um, are still very oblivious to all the things you mentioned today. So some people will listen to this video and say, I didn't know that was possible, I didn't know that was possible. Um, and these are conversations that need to happen. And like you said, it's figuring out who needs to be in the conversation. And I love Jason, how you uh, pinpointed the characteristics and you know, when Kent brought up the idea of six year olds, you know, learning how to pick locks and understanding, you know, uh, tell their mom that that's a valuable lesson to learn. Right. You know, I'm not sure how many moms would be in support of that. And yet, uh, you make some very key points because you're accurate there. There's a bigger lesson in it. And until we start having those conversations is a key awareness where we can start at least opening the doors to figure out what the chess moves are. Great observation.

Speaker C: So Ken, uh, in wrapping up, uh, where can people find you and how can they get involved with you? How can I get uh, involved with you in spreading this message and uh, trying to take this further?

Speaker A: Sure. Uh, the best way to find me is LinkedIn. I'm extremely active on that social media platform. So just search Ken Underhill. Uh, and I should pull up in the top search results. If not, just type CEH afterwards and you'll find me. Uh, also be sure to follow the Cyber Life TV show. Once it launches in November, it's gonna be playing on Mecha Stream, which is a new channel launching in November. Um, it'll be playing Wednesday nights at 8 o' clock local time. So it doesn't matter where you are in the world, you can watch it. It'll also go into a repository, kind of like a Netflix, um, which my following is actually affectionately called Ken Flicks. So be sure to look out, you know, for Ken Flicks, uh, you can binge watch and everything but uh, like I said, that show is going to really be pushing the envelope a little bit and trying to bring more awareness and um, you know, I'm happy to, if you want to be a guest on the show, just email me@kennltech.com or just reach out to me on LinkedIn. And you know, I'm happy to get people on, um, again really just trying to bring awareness to the issue. I'm fortunate to have worked very hard and met some very good individuals that afforded me this opportunity for my own. And um, I've got to leverage it right. You know, like you can either sit down and do Nothing. Or you can, you know, make a stand for something bigger. And so that's. That's sort of the goal with the show, is to both make a stand for diversity as well as, uh, educating the general public. Right. Because sometimes you get tired of seeing all the attacks in the news, and I know I do, uh, especially get tired of seeing the hackers in the hoodies, uh, stuff portrayed by Hollywood. Um, and so I think it's just. To me, it's just a fun. A fun show, uh, fun place for people to tune in and just. Just see a difference. Right. Just something different besides all the typical news that you see out there.

Speaker C: Awesome. Uh, all right, April, you want to take us home?

Speaker B: You know, and Jason, anything else you want to share, I will let you close out. But, you know, Ken, I wholeheartedly agree with you. We all have different platforms and different people, um, that we are investing in and that are listening to. And that's what Jason and I saw the benefit of creating the. Addressing the elephant in the room, uh, because I am hugely committed to creating light bulb moments where people just like you share. Yes, I've got a perspective, and yes, it matters. And I'm learning day by day through platforms, through TVs, through et cetera, how to help people understand. And I'm willing to play the chess game. And, um, I want to congratulate that and commend that. And I love working with individuals that are willing to not only look in the mirror, but be willing and committed to saying, I'm going to be part of the change. And, uh, wonderful. It's great. And happy to help with that.

Speaker C: Yeah, Ken, I want to thank you. Um, my role is trying, uh, to really help high achievers like yourself break through to the next level of impact that they're really trying to make on the world. Uh, I hope that you've enjoyed the show as much as we have. This was absolutely awesome. I think that we had a great conversation that gave our listeners something really to think about. And, uh, I'm looking forward to having you back and, uh, hopefully being a guest on your show.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely appreciate it, guys.