124. How This CSM Got a 40% Interview Conversion Rate (With Special Guest, Mariia!)

Carly Agar: Welcome back to the Customer Success Career Coach podcast. Today is going to be such a good one because you get to listen in on a conversation that I had with Maria. Maria was a client of ours. She just recently landed her absolute dream job at a cybersecurity company as a CSM and she lives in Canada. So I'm excited to, uh, bring Maria on. She's going to talk about a lot of data and you all know hopefully how much I love data. But Maria tracked like everything about her job search before she worked with us, after she worked with us. And what's good about that for you is you're going to learn a lot about what worked for her in her job search and what did not. And she has all these numbers to prove it. Truthfully, some of the numbers she's going to share are kind of mind blowing. Specifically, she's going to get into how she basically 3xed her application to interview rate, which if you're listening to this right now, chances are you'd like to 3x your application interview rate too. So tune into this conversation. I know you're going to learn a lot. There's going to be a lot of really good takeaways, so you might want to take some notes. Without further ado, uh, let's listen to Maria and learn how she ended up with not one, but two job offers and still said no to five other companies along the way to accepting her dream job. What if the only thing standing between you and your next big career milestone is just a strategy you haven't heard yet? I'm Carly Agar, Customer success veteran, award winning career coach and your go to for getting hired and promoted in customer success. Whether you're breaking into the field or ready to level up into leadership, this podcast is your shortcut to real career growth. Every episode is packed with practical takeaways, data backed strategies and zero fluff advice that actually works so you can start making moves towards your goals immediately. If you're ready to take control of your career, well then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Customer Success Career Coach podcast. Why don't you walk me through why you wanted to hire a coach in the first place. Just give everyone a little background about where you were when you first came to me and what kind of role you were looking for.

Maria: For me, it was a moment of self care really. I was in a spot where I was looking for the best fit role. I knew exactly what I wanted. So I really did some soul searching before actually jumping into the job search. I Remember writing five bullet points? What kind of culture am I looking for, what kind of role, what kind of scope of responsibilities? And I knew what I wanted, but that was a high stakes situation because I was looking for the job, not a job. When I was on LinkedIn, I was just kind of scrolling on LinkedIn one day and I've noticed that there's a lot of like negativity on LinkedIn. So I saw CSMs would say, like, it's not okay to do networking, nobody wants to hear from you, everyone's busy and the uh, CS job search sucks. It's like a war zone or something. And when I saw that, that triggered me because that sounded so, like hopeless and desperate and I didn't want to feel like that. So when I saw your LinkedIn content, I was really feeling empowered by seeing your messages because you made me feel hopeful. When I saw numbers, when I saw data with your strategy, how people actually worked on landing their roles and the time it took them to do it and the best fit roles they actually found that what really made me attracted to you. And I also did your free training. This is when I saw your expertise, Carly. So I looked at the strategy you had and it was really impressive because I saw that you are, you have been in the industry for what like 10 years and you have created this program and I was very lucky to find it because I don't think there's a lot of programs in the market like that where CSMs, like actual CSMs, they help you through the job search. And so this is what sold me. When I did your free training, I decided to see if I can join the program. That was my decision, that was what motivated me.

Carly Agar: We've talked about this before and you're very unique and I love you for this. But most people don't invest in a coach or anything really until they feel like they're in a lot of pain. They've sent tens or hundreds of applications, it's been months and they haven't really gotten anywhere. But you came to us. Uh, well before you hit that point, can you just talk a little bit about what made you decide to invest when you did?

Maria: For me, it was kind of easy to invest because I just happen to love learning and self development and I just invest in coaching. Even before joining the program, I had a career coach. She was from just my university and I got my first job in tech due to joining a, uh, program for university graduates. And this is how I landed my job. But it was not CSM specific, it was not specific to the market that we have nowadays in cs. So for me, I was really attracted to you having that data because you have actually worked with what, like 900 people now or a thousand people, and you actually helped them to get the CSM job. So I was assuming that you would have some numbers as to their strategy and would help me get what I wanted faster and get the best fit job.

Carly Agar: Ooh, okay, I love that. Some of the most common quote, unquote traps that people fall into these days when it comes to job searching is they put all their time and energy into certain things that they think, like, oh, this is going to get me closer to my goal. But we now know in reality, just from studying so many job searches, that these things don't actually move the needle. So some examples of that. Tailoring, uh, your resume every time you apply to a job, writing cover letters, trying to attend every networking event that you see on LinkedIn, applying to as many jobs as you possibly can. So I'm curious, like for you, which of those did you believe, if any, would help you land a job?

Maria: Honestly, your program is so valuable. Not, uh, only because of what to do. You're saying what to do, but you're saying what not to to do. And for me, it was super important because I was gonna do all that stuff, if I'm completely honest. I was gonna go on LinkedIn, I was gonna like start posting and commenting. There's a lot of advice on that from generic career coaches, but it works long term. Like if I wanna build a personal brand, yes, that's the strategy. If I wanna do networking, like coffee chats with just some people from the companies I really like, yes, that's, that could work, but it could take like months and I didn't want to search for months. Even though it was like intentional and took my time to get a job, it was important for me to land it quite quickly. So you helped me really focus my resources, my time, my energy, my money, because I didn't have to spend money on networking events. I just remember having that slide that you showed in one of the videos, the training videos, and I knew exactly what is a low priority task, what is a high priority. I knew exactly two actions need to take to get me to the outcome I wanted. So the best fit job and I hyper focused on those and I got the outcome I needed. So thank you.

Carly Agar: What were the two actions from that slide that you're describing where it says only focus on these two things?

Maria: So the first one is to apply for jobs and the second one is to do networking. Do outreach.

Carly Agar: I know, uh, you were doing outreach before you even came to us. We had chatted about that a little. So what did your outreach strategy look like before?

Maria: Oh, uh, before it kind of. It was not very good. So I come from startup backgrounds. I worked with fintech and legal tech startups and scale ups. And I did have some experience in sales and cold outreach. But it's very humbling to admit that when I tried to apply this approach in job search, it did not exactly work like I was hoping it would. I focused on quality over quantity, and I only applied to best fit roles. I think before the program, I applied to like 10 or even less than that. And then what I did, I also did outreach parallel to that. So I was like focusing on interactions over applications and I reached out to people in those companies, but I did reach out to wrong people and in the wrong way. So I was close to what you taught me later, but not exactly the right mix of things. And I just got like one interview invitation and didn't work out, unfortunately. So I knew I just needed some perspective from more experienced people like yourself to help me refine my strategy.

Carly Agar: And what you just admitted is something that almost everyone that comes to work with us also admits, which is, hey, I'm pretty skeptical about you saying that outreach is the thing that's going to land me interviews because I've been doing outreach and it's not working. So it sounds like just to kind of draw a good contrast here, before your outreach was maybe higher in volume, not super personalized, and it. And you weren't going after decision makers, is that right?

Maria: Exactly. So I was going after more like csm because I thought that, oh, like, they're gonna help me, you know, we're gonna have a coffee chat. And I did have a few coffee chats, but it didn't lead to actually landing the job, you know?

Carly Agar: Yep, coffee chats are something. I think they became incredibly popular during COVID It was like all of a sudden everyone is having coffee chats on LinkedIn.

Maria: And it's true, people are busy, they don't have time for coffee chats. So it's kind of even embarrassing to ask for that. But that's what I did. And I got very avoidant after that. Like, I didn't want to do networking because I got burned by failing.

Carly Agar: Yeah, I mean, that's just a normal way to react. Right? Like, I'm putting in this time and effort and energy and I'm not getting the thing I want out of it, so why would I keep doing it? So, obviously, you come on board with our team, we start teaching you our outreach strategy, we start giving you feedback. What are all the things that shifted for you in terms of actually doing that outreach? Like, what did it look like in this new version?

Maria: It was a learning curve. I'll be very honest. When I just joined the program, I was not exactly the humblest version of myself. I was just waiting for my new resume because the recruiter was helping to edit my resume, and it was really well done. So I thought, like, oh, I could just, you know, use my resume and just apply for a bunch of jobs, because for me, outreach didn't work work like I was hoping, like, before the program. And I'll be super honest, I didn't do a lot of supported applications at first, like months one or months two in the program. So I have just calculated. I have numbers. I looked at my spreadsheets overall within the program. I have sent out 69 applications. Carly. Not all of them were supported by outreach. Only 18 I did support with Outreach that you taught me, and those 18 converted into seven interview invitations. So that's a 40% conversion rate. Wow. Yeah. I also calculated the unsupported applications where I just used my new resume and I applied to a bunch of jobs. It was 51 applications. It only converted to four interviews, which means, like, the resume was really well done, but it's only 8% conversion compared to 40% of when I did outreach. So I kind of think the ROI is obvious here. So when I got the seven interview invitations, I also got offers very quickly because I got one offer and then I got, like, another offer very quick, quickly. I could speed up other companies, and then I could hyperfocus on the best fit roles. I had options. I didn't need to spray and pray and, like, reach out to apply to all the jobs out there. I only focused on jobs in my industry. The scope of the role I wanted, the values, the culture. I was very selective. I looked at Glassdoor, I spoke to the interviewers, and I had a luxury. Your program gave me a luxury to see what do I want to work with them. And so I said no to five companies, and I ended up having two job offers negotiated, and I got the best fit job, just like I wanted.

Carly Agar: I could crawl through the computer right now and give you a hug for bringing that data to this conversation, which we did not have when we chatted last. But I just want to, like, zoom in on that for a second. So you're saying you had an 8% conversion rate on the applications you submitted where you did nothing else but just submit an application versus a 40% conversion rate on the applications that you did outreach for?

Maria: Yeah. Uh, can you imagine? It's mind blowing.

Carly Agar: That is mind blowing. I love that you calculated that for us, so thank you. I appreciate it.

Maria: I know CSMs are data driven people, so I thought it would be helpful.

Carly Agar: I love data. You know, it's really hard as someone who gives advice for a living and is paid to give advice. It's just hard for me to grapple with ever giving advice that doesn't have data backing it up. So I'm obsessed with data. I love it. You touched on this quickly, but I want to talk a little bit more about it. This quality over quantity. I know that for a lot of people, and honestly, even sometimes for myself, it's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that applying to fewer jobs can result in more interviews because the math doesn't make sense. And I know that that was something that you kind of grappled with a little bit. But I love how you said that once you were able to focus on the quality of the applications you were submitting, you found yourself in this different kind of position of power where it was like, wait, now I get to be selective about where I want to spend my time, so can you just talk a little bit more about that shift from sending a lot of applications to sending just a few?

Maria: I felt so relieved, and it took me a coaching session, honestly, to get to that because I was really avoidant of doing outreach and reluctant. But then I spoke to Zach, one of the coaches. He's like my favorite guy. He took me through so many coaching sessions over my time in the program, and he was very, very empowering. He said, like, Maria, just hyper focus on networking for two weeks straight. Let's get support from other coaches. Send your outreach, get the feedback, and just fight for focus as much as you can. And this is what I did, and this is when I started getting the traction that I didn't know was possible. For me, being a, uh, more intentional individual, I'm very selective with how I like to spend my energy, spend my time. So I don't like this pray and pray approach because of that. I like it when it's like, I do one thing and it has the biggest ROI possible. So your program gave me this luxury of options when I started doing outreach.

Carly Agar: I really like the way that you just framed that, and there's usually Two kinds of job searches. I kind of like to bucket them into two things. One is, uh, this is a really urgent job search. I need a paycheck and insurance. Now. I don't care as much about the job itself right now. And then, uh, there's another kind of job search where it is more intentional and you have a list of specific things you were looking for. And yours was very intentional and it also had some urgency. So I imagine applying to fewer jobs feels bad. Almost like, oh my gosh, I'm not doing enough.

Maria: At first it did. At first I was not sure if I should do that, so. But then, you, uh, know, it took me again, humility to just listen to what you taught me because you had a roadmap, you had a checklist, instructions, what to do. I needed to trust. I wish I did it sooner. I wish I just looked at the numbers once again because it took me watching this video time and time again where you talk about the data. If you apply this number of applications per week and do outreach, you get this outcome. And I watched this video time and time again. And this is when I started actually like trusting it slowly. It was not easy. But then it did work out because they saw it worked firsthand. It was not just in your video you telling that it works, but it was actually like me doing what you said would work. And um, it did work. So that was mind blowing.

Carly Agar: It's really fascinating how you can invest in someone to give you a path and to tell you what to do and still there is so much resistance. And I'm not saying this just from the person giving advice perspective, because I also invest a lot in coaching and mentors and courses and whatnot. And I struggle with that resistance too. I'm curious as someone who you kind of self label yourself as a like learning and development junkie.

Maria: Yeah. Yeah.

Carly Agar: Is there something that you do where you kind of recognize that resistance and you're like, you know what, Maria, let's just turn that off and let's just listen to the coach.

Maria: Yeah, I'm m negotiating with myself, to be honest, because I think it's. For us, it's very natural to resist when we have this ego and we feel unsafe sometimes as people if we're not following our own way. Sometimes, like, we can think that we're just better than everyone else and we know better. But for me, I'm like, I spoke to myself in a way that, okay, they have data and they have expertise in cs. They have done it with so many people so far. They have helped so many people, so it should work. So I convinced myself that, okay, I just need to trust and execute on the instructions step by step. And it did work. It did work. It was like a step into uncertainty because I. I wasn't sure if it's gonna work. But it did work eventually.

Carly Agar: Sometimes you almost have to bargain with yourself. Like you get to a point where you just have to say, what's the worst that could happen if I listen to this advice? Like, the worst is kind of already happening in that I'm not getting the thing I want doing it my way, so I might as well try this other way for sure. You mentioned talking to your accountant before enrolling, which I think is really important and something that a lot of people maybe haven't experienced before, because most people have not invested in themselves before. So could you kind of walk me through, like, how you actually evaluate whether investing in a coach or a mentor or course or whatever it is is worth it to you financially?

Maria: When I looked at your explanation before I actually made a decision, you showed a slide. With all the content of the program, everything that I get, basically the community of other CSMs and the guidance from CSM experts, the strategy I'm learning, the positioning ROI was huge. Like the time saving, the energy saving. And eventually I kind of got me believe that it would pay off eventually because I've had experience like that before. So before I invested in coaching and training and I saw how I changed. I saw I could learn from people and they could show me something about myself that I didn't know before. So I've really changed in a positive way because I invested in learning and training and I knew it would definitely help me in some way. For me, that was like a relatively easy decision. I made the decision very quickly. Like, uh, an hour or so took me to decide and I was like, okay, let's do it.

Carly Agar: I appreciate you sharing that because I know that can be somewhat personal.

Maria: Right.

Carly Agar: It's like how you think about your money and your time and, and what's worth investing in and what's not worth investing in. It sounds like for you, you and I are so similar in this way in that we can look in the mirror and say, you know, uh, you can do this on your own. Like you are capable, you are smart, you will figure this out. But if you can invest a little bit of money and get the thing you want even a little bit faster

Maria: than its money, I really don't know how people can be very successful and great if they don't learn. Investing in learning in myself, in working with people who have done it, whatever I want to do, it's the fastest way to get there.

Carly Agar: I totally agree with that. Uh, if you're not investing in someone who has more expertise, then you'll either eventually plateau or again, your growth is just going to look a lot slower than someone else.

Maria: Yeah.

Carly Agar: One thing that isn't talked about enough is the impact that job seeking can have on your mindset and vice versa. You can have the best strategy in the world, but if you don't have the mindset to take action, then it almost doesn't matter. How did you control your mindset throughout the whole process of job seeking?

Maria: Your program gave me the luxury of abundance mindset because they had options. It gave me a lot of confidence and hope. Again, like I said, I looked at LinkedIn and I just, at times I saw people just got so desperate and doom and gloom. All this stuff on LinkedIn, like it didn't make me feel good, it didn't help me in any way. So for me it was very important to be in that positive bubble, surround myself with people who have expertise, who have data and be focused, stay focused, take the right actions at the right time. And this is what really helped me get to where I wanted to be. I know job search can be difficult and especially when it comes to interviewing and rejections, it can be like mentally taxing. So having the support, it was so valuable. Honestly, it made me feel like I am um, I can do anything that's powerful.

Carly Agar: So you've talked a lot about your journey, how you got here, how things turned around for you, but we haven't talked about actually where you ended up. So can you tell us a little bit about your job now? What does your new job look like and what do you love most about?

Maria: Was super important to find a job that was in a, uh, startup scale up environment because I know I like a lot of ownership and autonomy with how I work. I like building things from the ground up like CS functions, CS programs and I knew I also wanted to work um, in a regulated industry. So cybersecurity, this is where I work now. It's a cybersecurity SaaS. Before that I worked in fintech and legal tech so I could build this track record of knowing stuff like compliance and just building my expertise. It was very important for me that I was building on that rather than jumping into some other industry that was not in line with what I've been doing before. Also culture wise I was looking For a place where I could grow personally and professionally. And of course in early stage companies it's more easy to grow quickly because there's a lot of responsibility. And I was also looking for a, uh, fair compensation, psychological safety, meaning that like a growth mindset on the team so I could feel safe to make mistakes. And also readjusting my approach and it takes trial and error sometimes in startups. So that was important for me. And also diversity and inclusion. Me, like as a young woman, it was important for me that I was treated nicely. And so I got all of that. I got the industry. I wanted the role, the CSM role, the scope of responsibilities. I just wanted to manage the book of business as opposed to focusing more on like reactive side of things and doing the support tickets. So actually I got the kind of job that I wanted. Exactly. The best fit role. Yay.

Carly Agar: You did that.

Maria: Yay.

Carly Agar: And we're all so happy for you.

Maria: I am very happy. Yeah.

Carly Agar: If you were talking to someone who right now is kind of on the fence, they're feeling like, I don't know if I need to invest in my job search. I think I kind of want to just try this on my own. What would you say to them?

Maria: I would say lean into humility a little bit here. I know it takes humility to admit like, oh, maybe if I do want the best job or if I do want a job quicker, then maybe I may not have all I need to get there. And so for me, I am a huge advocate now of your program and this is why I'm here, because I want to scream about it, because I've had so many options due to your program. I had so many interview invitations and two very competitive job offers and I even said no to five companies, which is incredible. And so I don't think it would be possible if I just like kept doing it on my own for I don't know for how many months really. I don't think I would have been that successful, honestly, without the support that I got in the Carli Agers training program. Again, it's very humbling to make a decision to get help from someone, but it's very empowering as well because if you're just in your head, you don't know what you can do. If you don't have like other people telling you what's possible, you don't know what's possible. That was my how I made a decision and I highly, highly recommend don't mess with it, like make a decision to get help.

Carly Agar: Mhm. Well, I think that's great advice. I will take the compliments. And I would also like to offer you compliments in return, which is it is very clear. Anyone who interacts with you, anyone even just listening to this knows, will know quickly that you are incredibly humble. You have such a strong growth mindset, and it is just incredibly clear from any interaction with you. So while I receive your compliments, I also want to say that a lot of where you are and where you ended up is because of who you are and how you operate. So I'm excited to see what you do next because this is really just only the beginning of the next chapter.

Maria: Thank you, Carly.

Carly Agar: Ugh. That was such a great conversation with Maria, and I'm so glad that you got to listen in on that. And if you're sitting there and you're thinking like, damn it, the beginning of Maria's story sounds a lot like where I'm at, where I'm just doing all this stuff and it's not resulting in anything, then I want you to consider this one takeaway from this conversation with Maria, and that is when she's explaining the before and after, when she's describing how she was totally stuck to all of a sudden, she had all this momentum, all these options. She's turning down companies because she has so many options in front of her. I want you to remember that this is one person. This is the same person's background and experience. Nothing about her qualifications changed. The job market was the same. Nothing about the job market changed. It's all just in her strategy. And so if you've been feeling down on yourself or down on this job market thinking, like, I'm not enough or I don't have the qualifications, or it just doesn't seem to be good enough, I'm not standing out, then I want you to really look at Maria's story and ask yourself, like, is it all of these things that I can't control? Is it actually my qualifications? Is it actually the job market? Or could it just be my strategy? And I hope you land on the answer is it is just your strategy. Because the good news about that is it is entirely within your control to change. If you keep telling yourself that the reason you're not making progress is because of your qualifications, because of a career gap, because of the job market or macroeconomics, then that's a really scary place to be in, because you can't change any of those things. And I don't know about you, but when things aren't going my way, I like to know that there's things I can change. So if you've just come to that realization and you want how help changing your outcome by changing your strategy, please apply to work with my team. At the very least, let us tell you if we think we can help you or not. Either way, you'll get something out of the conversation. You'll figure out what you're doing wrong, what you're doing right, and you'll be on a better path. To apply, you can always head to the application linked in the show notes, or you can go to carlyagar.com forward/apply. As always, thank you so much for giving me your time and I'll catch you in the next episode.