Michael Pell: Innovation in the 4th Dimension: Seeing Business in a New Light | Ep. 37

Speaker A: Welcome to a, uh, Culture of Innovation. We interview exceptional leaders who embrace and demonstrate innovation. Hear their stories and listen as we explore turning ideas into tangible ways to create, value and cultivate innovation as a way of life. Listen and be inspired as an innovative leader. Together we shape culture and change the world. Culture of Innovation is brought to you by Ridge Innovative, where we practice innovation with a purpose to help companies use technology and breakthrough strategies to achieve business outcomes. I'm your host, Nancy Ridge. And today I am so thrilled to introduce our guest, Mike Pell. And Mike, I am so happy to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker B: It's very exciting. Nancy, thank you for having me.

Speaker A: And we're going to have a great topic today, Innovation in the fourth dimension. Seeing business in a new light. Inspired by your book Visualizing Business. And we're going to dive pretty deeply into that. But before we do, I want to give our listeners just a little background on you. Uh, Mike is the inventor of Adobe Acrobat and PDF and several other world changing products. His career has spanned from intrepid entrepreneur to Silicon Valley startup veteran to corporate man for Adobe and Microsoft, which has given him a very unique perspective on how to combine business experience and technology to create breakthrough experiences. Mike currently leads the Microsoft Garage in New York City which is the company's worldwide innovation program for curiosity fueled experiments. I love that. Where he helps turn people's passions and ideas into everyday reality. Mike's written three books, so I can't say, uh, that I've read all three, but they're on my list so I'll just mention them here. Envisioning Holograms is the first. The Age of Smart Innovation was his second book and the latest. Visualizing Business is the one will explore today. So I got to meet Mike. Uh, we met at the ASAP Summit recently in New York where you led our advisory board through a hackathon which I have to say was so much fun and it really helped us get to the heart of, I think, our purpose and intention. So, uh, that was a great introduction and super valuable. Thank you for that.

Speaker B: Uh, I had a lot of fun doing that. What a great group. And we did it really quickly, right? In 10 minutes we changed the entire face of alliance.

Speaker A: And I think it also gave everybody who was sitting there a lot of confidence, um, and a lot of hope in the fact that this is something that we have inherent in us the ability and the knowledge to do it. And we just got to bring it out. So I really appreciate you sharing your book with us. There and bringing those ideas now today to the podcast. And I know you're doing that with others too, um, like with New York University and you know, just many others. So thank you.

Speaker B: It's a lot of fun being here in New York City. We get a chance to work with Microsoft's top customers, which are the most successful companies in the world. And it's my privilege to try to disrupt their thinking, to try to have them look at things a bit differently than maybe they would normally. So that's a lot of fun for me personally and also results in them walking away with new thoughts, uh, about where they can go, just like we did with the ASAP group and revisiting what it really means to be a partner, to have a partnership, an alliance at its heart. What is that all about? I like to do that with, you know, every different vertical that comes in.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which, you know, I think is really, ah, an approach that brings the human element back to the fore. I mean we love tech, but you know, I get that from you. You know, you've. And just to kind of dive into my first question, we um, talked about your origins and your background and you've been at the forefront of design breakthroughs for over three decades. So uh, how does or how has that career helped you, uh, shape the lens, the specific lens that you bring to your book to visualizing business?

Speaker B: Mhm. So I started off as an artist and I actually went to school to study fine art. But I discovered very quickly I, uh, was never going to make it in fine art. But I loved technology. I love science fiction and design. And so I've always had elements of both, uh, the very creative side and very analytic side. And I've tried to use those together throughout my career. So that really helped me over the years to be able to have a very particular perspective on how people communicate clearly, how to get things through using technology as a medium and a mechanism. But really more relying on the people side of things, on our ability to um, to be very, uh, persuasive and evocative and clear. And so that's kind of at the heart of all this. And you know, as you started to allude to, um, whenever I get a chance to talk to any group of people, I will always tell them the same thing. In my experience, it's never ever, ever the technology, it's always the people side of the equation. And so that's what I try to use in my work. The technology is great, it can do amazing things, but really you're going to get all of the gains by understanding and figuring out the people side. So that's where you, uh, know, visualizing business comes in. Yes, it is a new way to see, um, you know, and experience what we do in our businesses. But at, uh, the heart of it is helping people to understand what's really going on.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which, you know, I think I'm so glad that you're opening with that emphasis because, you know, even in the title of the book, you know, it talks about how AI with data visualization and spatial computing is really transformative and how it's going to help us see our, our businesses globally. And yet, you know, to come from that foundation of, yes, we're going to apply all that, but through the human lens, I think is, is really comforting because there are still a lot of people outside of this, I'm going to say, tech bubble that people like you and I live in that have a lot of fear around this. So, you know, know.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, we run into that every day. I mean, it's inside the tech industry as well. It's across every single industry. It's across education and society in general. You know, people are, um, are hearing this narrative, right, that AI is coming for their jobs and they're not going to be able to, to find a new role. You know, uh, or even new grads. Right. Are facing very bleak prospects. I, I'm an eternal optimist, as I told you. And so I tend to look at the positive part of all this, which is all of us have an opportunity to be even better at what we do right now, given some of these new tools and technologies to explore things that maybe we were never going to get to just because of time and resources. So I think it's actually, um, quite an exciting time to be looking at all these technologies. And so I think it's going to amplify what, uh, people are already great at.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree, I agree. And that is a perfect segue to get us to dive into a little bit of, uh, what's in the book, the 4D concept unpacked. So the book introduces us to this idea of 4D business intelligence. So for a business leader who lives in dashboards and quarterly reports today, which many of us do, how would you Describe what a 4D view of their business would actually feel, feel like, and, um, what decisions would suddenly become clearer for them?

Speaker B: So in the book, the fourth dimension that I talk about is the dimension of time. You know, so we all are familiar with 3D, whether it's 3D models or, you know, IMAX, 3D or whatever, you know, things being brought to life in a very visceral, you know, spatial type of way. But the part of business that's always been missing to me is the element of time. Yet it's ingrained into everything we do. You know, what, what happened last quarter, what's going to happen next quarter. And so at uh, the heart of this whole thing is the notion that we have to be able to not only know what's happened, but what will happen. But yet there's no really good tools, there's no mechanisms, there's nothing easy for me to get to, to be able to, you know, not only see, but help make decisions. So I invented a time machine for business, uh, and that essentially incorporates this idea of 4D or time being the very heart of it. Something where you can sort of, um, rewind through existing data to see what's happened, but also fast forward through prediction and simulation to see what might happen and play what if. So that's kind of the very essence of the book is I talk about not only the concept of the time machine, but how to build it and what will happen for you as an executive looking at your dashboard. And the simplest way for me to describe this is for decades and decades we have used static representations of business. Yet we all know that business is constantly in motion, very chaotic, always changing. So why would we ever use static representations to make our most important decisions, knowing that everything is changing?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That never made sense to me. So 20 years ago I actually designed a system to be able to do. So I invented this time machine, did a bunch of sketches which are in the back of the book, and I showed it to Jensen wang of Nvidia 20 years ago and said, hey, this is what financial markets will look like if you could predict and do data exploration. It turns out that we are right at the right point in time to really do this now for business. So what it brings to leaders is that ability to not only have to figure out yourself, because we all have developed the ability to look at a spreadsheet or a chart or a dashboard and, and sort of make sense out of it. You know, we form our own models and we understand how our business works. But I've invented a new visual language to go with this time machine to actually show you how your business works in a very visual, animated, you know, uh, very cinematic way. So it's a difference for me from sort of going from like black and white still photography to 4K highly dynamic movies.

Speaker A: I love that. Analogy, I think it really brings at home. Uh, in the book, you take it even further and you talk about how, you know, if we're watching a video or something on Netflix, you know, we can, we can skip forward to kind of see where this whole thing is going and how this 4D method, this time machine, gives us that ability to potentially skip forward. You know, the other, the other piece that I think is so, uh, really relevant to what you're. You're describing here with the charts and that whole static aspect of it is how much stress and worry that's caused for business leaders for so long and that, that feeling of, you know, futility because you know that as soon as you're producing these reports, they're obsolete. How many times have you heard people saying that?

Speaker B: And meetings come to a grinding halt if someone questions what you've just presented. And this is another whole part of business that's driven me crazy. There's no reason for that anymore. We can actually react in real time. We can keep the conversation going. We don't need to regroup after a week or two of redoing the numbers. So this will help executives and anybody working in business to be able to not only play what if, but make those hard decisions quicker because you'll have access to more. You'll be able to see more.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, looking at, um, AI as a time machine is a very different perspective that I don't think many of us have embraced. And in the summary of the book, you talk about AI being the ultimate time machine for business, and you've sketched out, like, a pretty good description of it. Can you give us, um, maybe a little bit more in terms of, in practice, like you talked about those meetings, maybe a little bit more of what you envision for how we would use AI to see that business moving forward. And maybe that could work for teams, in fact, you know, within organizations.

Speaker B: Sure. Well, let's take the example that, you know, you know very well, which is, uh, you know, alliances that are formed. It's very difficult to know and measure the value of an alliance. Right. And like, you know this very well. You can have numbers, you can have charts and graphs that show this has happened, this has not happened, but it's. It's a highly dynamic and very, I'm going to say, um, emotionally charged situation, meaning, you know, things change. Right. And so being able to see, like, literally see the nature of something like that, and, you know, how, you know, maybe one group is. Is now at a slight, you know, advantage versus the other group sort of seeing the balance, you know, like the scales tipping, seeing, you know, how the energy or the, or the um, sentiment, you know, or um, say like the value sort of changing sides or like, you know, is it balanced equally? That kind of a thing doesn't exist today. And so being able to go backwards in time to see where did, you know, where did we start, what did we announce, what was the press release, what was the contract? And then start to fast forward a little bit. Well, where is this going? Given current market forces, given what's happening in society, given what the predictions are about both of our businesses or industries, where do we think this is going to go? And then that gives you as a professional at least better information to start thinking about or to argue about or to have uh, a new agreement drafted. Because now it looks like things are shifting. Yeah, I know people already do this. We've, we've made gazillions of dollars over the years by looking at static graphs and charts. But now we're going to give you the ability to actually make more sense out of it more quickly because it's going to be in a form that, that makes sense to you.

Speaker A: I m find that so exciting because alliances are all about collaborations and building ecosystems where you have that interdependency, uh, built in together and that you're constantly trying to improve upon. And I see just an opportunity for creative flow. I love the fact that your past, you began as an artist, as a creative person. I'm always attracted to that for some reason, you know, because I, I believe that ultimately, you know, that is what we're seeking to do is to be creative and how we're working together. And what I'm hearing you describe is an environment where we can have some freedom to let a bit of that creativity flow. So it's not just me as an alliance manager looking at those, um, points that you're describing, but it's inviting the partner in to do it together.

Speaker B: Yeah. And to allow you to be strategically creative or logistically creative or technologically creative or all of them at the same time.

Speaker A: Time.

Speaker B: And so it really is, uh, as you say, it's creating an environment where all those things are possible now and it's not just coming in and having to stick to the script. And we don't want to go there because who knows, if we start talking about that, we have to talk about this. We don't have the data. All things are possible now. And with, um, the caveat that it's only as good as the people that want to have these kinds of conversations.

Speaker A: Yes. Human centered design at the core. You know, I definitely. That's another bit that I took, you know, from the book, and I hear you, you saying it again today. So. Reviewers note that this book has put people squarely front and center rather than positioning. This is a story of time machines taking over. And, uh, as, uh, someone who leads innovation at Microsoft, how do you think about the tension between empowering people with these tools versus overwhelming them so that they're not going, oh, here's another thing now that I need to learn and embrace?

Speaker B: It's, It's a big problem right now for everybody. I mean, every single person is having to deal with, I would say, unprecedented change. We have never in the history, at least of the technology industries ever had this much innovation happening all at once. Every single day. It seems like we don't know what's

Speaker A: going to be next, honestly.

Speaker B: And nobody, nobody can keep up with all of this stuff. So what people are starting to figure out is that they can focus on what's important to them. They don't have to keep up on everything. But we all need to be willing at least to try a little bit, to experiment a little bit, to just see. It may not be something that you use every single day or for everything that you do during the day, but there is probably parts of whether it's, um, AI or other technologies that allow you to be better at whatever it is that you do, whether you're an athlete or a business person or a scholar, you know, or, you know, a student. There are so many things that we could do now because of these, you know, m. These new technologies. But you have to be willing to be a bit curious and to go find some things or to just try. Like we say in the garage, we like to experiment because that's what shows us, you know, the path forward. Right. We may have gone down, you know, a path that's not going to work, but that's okay, just try again. But that, I guess that willingness to just try apart in the future, we are all going to find very quickly that we have to all be lifelong learners now. There's no getting around it. Right? Everything is changing so quickly.

Speaker A: That's good news. I mean, that's going to keep us young, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And, you know, it doesn't mean that you can't, you can't keep doing things the way that you've done them, but you have to at least be informed as to what's going on. Around you so you can make better decisions.

Speaker A: Yeah. My personal motto is be curious. And I love how in your bio you talk about, you know, combining business experience and technology to create breakthroughs. And my experience has been, to your point that without breakdowns, breakthroughs don't exist.

Speaker B: That's very good. Uh, we were doing a capstone project here in the garage with NYU New York University students and we were talking about the nature of creativity. And my assertion was creativity is the only thing that's going to separate us in the future, meaning your own ability to be creative in your own way, whether it's in engineering or science or medicine or whatever field. But one of the things that came to light was that friction and disruption cause creativity to happen. So I love how you phrase it as a breakdown. Sometimes it's a breakdown in communication, it's a breakdown in technology, it's a breakdown in understanding. But those moments are when some of the best ideas come from. Because as humans we're just really good at resetting, uh, and recalibrating and synthesizing something very quickly that maybe we hadn't thought of before because of that friction.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yep. And for me, it always takes me back to what is the underlying commitment, you know, what is that, you know, that North Star that I'm seeking to get to. And if that, if I can keep that front and center, which is a very human thing, I believe, then the break down is just part of the journey to get there to the br. And don't they feel so much sweeter, you know, the breakthroughs?

Speaker B: Something I learned in your session was that there can truly be a win, win situation if we choose to frame things that way. So in business, to generalize, everybody goes in wanting to come out on top, right? They want to be the winner. They want to feel like they somehow got a better deal. But if you actually reframe some of these things as wanting your partner to be just as successful as you, and you mean it, you may approach things very differently.

Speaker A: 100%. Yes. Well, I have to tell you, I was so inspired after the hackathon. And then I came home, I read the book on the airplane and my next trip and you know, then I said, okay, I want to build my own time machine for the alliance program at Lumen. And um, I started the process and I know it's going to take time and there's effort involved because there's so much content that I need to create to build context, you know, in order to do this. And one thing I found is I've immediately invited a colleague into it. And the hurdle that. It's interesting you mentioned, communication can be a breakdown. Because what I discovered right off, which I think is a very common thing, is the context for me is, is looking at a bigger picture, you know, looking at that, that, that Netflix video, if you will. So it's like, what happened, what's happening now, and what do I envision for the future? And my colleague was very much rooted in this is only what we can do today. Because as I started talking about looking ahead, I had to create that context first because she couldn't hear it. She was very stuck with thinking, I want all this now. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. So I, I think that, you know, this whole, uh, concept is going to be, uh, really rooted in good communication. We've got to find ways to, you know, to make sure that we're really on the same page when we're talking about our time machines or, you know, using the power of the AI tools to look ahead and change our methodologies.

Speaker B: That's exactly why I invented this, was to help people communicate. That really is at the very heart of it. So clarity, uh, getting to, you know, understanding and getting to be able to communicate more effectively that that really is the very center of this whole thing. So, yes, the time machine is very functional that it lets you go back and see, you know, previous things or go forward and, you know, in simulation. But at the heart is being clear so that you can get your point across to your colleague, to your partner, to your, you know, to your audience in whatever way you need to.

Speaker A: Yeah, so from a practical starting point, you know, for either an alliance or partnership, um, development leader, or even just any business leader who's managing these complex ecosystems today, which could be partners, it could be departments, geographies, you know, we're, we're global today. Revenue streams. Where would you tell them to start? Now, I, I'm, I'm guessing it's going to be the communication piece as the answer, but maybe you could flesh that out a little bit more for us, given that most organizations, like even my own, are, uh, aren't anywhere near this yet.

Speaker B: Right. So this is what we do in the Microsoft garage quite often. So, you know, the world's most successful company comes in and I say, hey, what would actually have impact in your world? Like, uh, don't tell me about, you know, you can't do this because you don't have the budget, we don't have enough people, or we tried this five times. Before, tell me, what would actually move the needle? Like, what is true impact look like to you? And that forces people to get rid of all the constraints and then rethink about what you mentioned earlier. What is actually at the heart of what they're trying to do, and what is the biggest thing that they can imagine doing? That's where I always start. You know, I. I always like to say, you know, people go from A to B, you know, as quickly as they can. But what I do is I start from B is I, and I try to visualize and imagine what is the optimal outcome, what is the most, you know, amazing thing that could happen if everything went right. Start there, and then we'll sort of like walk backwards and figure out what gigantic thing did we have to overcome to get there, what chasm did we have to cross, what technology did we have to invent, what person did we need to find in order to get all the way up to the most optimal? But if you start from A and you start sort of like incrementally walking towards it, you're never going to get there.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's too many obstacles. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So. So just start from the optimal and. And figure out what does that look like? And let's really try to retool and rethink so we can get there someday.

Speaker A: I. I love that, uh, concept. You know, I think about it, you know, in terms of a vacation, for example, you know, if I want to get to Italy, let's say, and enjoy, right. You know, sitting in the Amalfi coast, having a meal or what have you. That's my. My ultimate, where I want to get to. Now I have to figure out when am I going, how am I getting there, where am I going to stay, who's going with me?

Speaker B: And I think that's why it's all possible now. You know, there will be, um, challenges in there, but that's the key, is that you can sort of isolate what is. What is the biggest challenge, and how am I going to overcome that to get to my optimal? That's far easier than trying to, you know, sort of walk stepwise. And then you run into this big roadblock, and you're like, oh, I guess we're not going to the Amalfi Coast.

Speaker A: Right. You know, and the other part, too, um, Mike, that I'm very inspired by. Not only the book, but. But your whole idea of willingness is enrolling others. And that's a big part of what we do in alliance management, part partnerships is we're always seeking to enroll, which is different than, I guess, persuading or, you know, issuing directives or whatnot.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, yeah, issuing edicts rarely, um, works. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, we're all, we're all dealing with highly intelligent, very motivated people. You know, the CEO can say, hey, we're all going over there, and everyone goes, okay, how exactly are we going to do that? But, you know, but there, there will be what we like to call the coalition of the willing. Right. The people who go, okay, great, let's, let's, let's go there. Let's try. And that's who you need to look for first within organizations. Don't try to go straight to the skeptics because you can't twist their arm and make them do something. It's never going to work. But if you find the people who are willing to try and go experiment and then take those small wins and start to talk about them, then you'll start to get more and more people who are willing to try.

Speaker A: Coalition of the willing. That is my new phrase for today. Thank you. That is fantastic. One more thing before we wrap it up that you've kind of, uh, brought to the top of my mind today as we talk about this time machine is the whole issue of time in general, because that seems to be the commodity that most of us are lacking, severely lacking. And as much as we enable technology thinking that it's going to give us back more time, it doesn't seem to be doing that. So, you know, I, uh, just wonder if you have any thoughts, you know, on how we can have a more willing or curious attitude about the fact that, you know, there is some freedom that can be had through taking this different approach.

Speaker B: Well, you know, as you know very well and as you talk to very successful people in business, they will tell you the same thing. It's not, uh, time management that necessarily, you know, wins the day. It's being willing to make time for the important things. Right. And being willing to not do the things that, that really don't matter, you know, So I found when I first started at Microsoft many years ago, we got so much email, it literally was impossible to track what was happening in your inbox. And it sort of felt like this, this raging river rushing by me. You know, it's like all this information was like. And at some point I had to just stop and say, you know what? I'm okay with that. Uh, I'm okay, like, letting it all flow by, and I will sort of figure out how I'm going to address the things that are most important as far as time goes, I think that's really the key is, you know, you have to be willing to sort of let things go. You don't have to be on top of every single thing, but figure out what's truly important, pay attention to those. And then with, you know, as I describe in the book, we will have tools to show us time in a very visual way that we don't have today.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: If you look back and how you spent your last week, you may be shocked at what you actually spent your time on. So something as simple as seeing a visual representation of where you spent your time. So if you have an iPhone on every Sunday, you know, it tells you how much time you spent. Like, and you're like, okay, I did not spend that much time. But it's true. Being a very visual person, I think that's probably the more effective way to show you where you're spending time that maybe you could be applying to other things.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Well, even, you know, it was funny chat. GBT at the end of the year does. Did this little thing this year where it gave you a picture of who you are based on your chats. And I was dying over that.

Speaker B: And also there, I think, uh, like Spotify and other services sort of show you like, you know, the music that you listen to.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's surprising because, you know, we're all busy and we're all doing, you know, different things and. But when you see it or hear it or feel it in that way, uh, it can help to change.

Speaker A: Yeah. Raise the awareness for sure. Well, thank you. This has been amazing. I always, um, close with what I call the fun bonus question, which is asking what innovation would you most like to see at this moment? And it could be anything. Speaking of.

Speaker B: Yeah. So as I told you, when I was a kid, I was a huge science fiction fan. Loved, loved watching the original Star Trek series. So if I could have one thing, it would be a transporter.

Speaker A: Oh, yes, yes. I'm so with you. I thought you were gonna say the Enterprise.

Speaker B: Yeah, that would be great. No, but I would settle for the transporter.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, the transporter would be incredible.

Speaker B: Uh, mostly followed by the food replicator, because I am a foodie, so I love it.

Speaker A: That's fantastic. Well, thank you so much for taking time to chat with me today. And I'm excited to share everything that we've discussed and really be a cheerleader for the ideas that you're bringing forth in your new book. And uh, thank you as well for the ideas that you have brought to us in the past. Um, my current employer, Lumen, is very much a part of the PDF world, although we're now moving into digital document generation, that next aspect of it. But if it weren't for you, we might not be here.

Speaker B: Yeah. So my second book that I wrote called the Age of Smart Information, talks all about, um, the future of digital smart documents and information. That's another good thing for you to look at. Um, and people can find out more about the time machine and what I do at mikepell. AI so happy to chat with anybody about all this, but thank you so much for having this conversation.

Speaker A: Yes, thank you. Have a great one. Talk to you soon.

Speaker B: Talk to you soon.