Season 3, Episode 10: Consumer Perception of Sustainable Packaging

Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Crazy About Packaging podcast. I'm, um, Natalie, here with Mike and Jonathan, and we are the Cap Pack. How's everyone doing today?

Speaker B: Doing great, Natalie.

Speaker A: Uh, I almost called us the pack cap tongue twister. Well, anyway, on today's episode with the Cap Pack, we are exploring the psychology of sustainability in packaging and how certain packaging materials or design elements can influence what people think is sustainable, even if it may not necessarily be factually the most sustainable choice. So, um, because sometimes looking sustainable and being sustainable in reality are not the same thing, unfortunately, um, just to make it, you know, all the more confusing for, for everybody. So from color and texture to messaging and material selection, we'll talk about some of the cues that consumers look for and how perception of we or not something is sustainable can influence their buying behavior. Sound good?

Speaker C: Perfect.

Speaker B: Sounds interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think this is a topic that we've, um, kind of gone over in different ways many times. Um, you know, with our, you know, episodes where we've talked about LCAs and recyclability in theory versus in practice and all that kind of stuff and material substitution. So I think this episode is an interesting way of bringing all of that together from the perspective of what the consumer may be seeing. And maybe kind of maybe, um, we'll have the opportunity to kind of debunk some, some common beliefs that the average consumer may have. So. And maybe, you know, and talk about, um, some ways that maybe brands can help overcome this. So.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: All right, first, though, we have a game that's not really a game, but, but more of a quiz, I guess. But it's a lightning round. That's what I'll call it. Um, we're gonna break each round into two answers. So I'm gonna hold up two, um, packaging items, uh, consumer goods packaged items, or food packaged items. And first we're going to say what we think consumers believe to be more sustainable. And then second, we're going to say what we believe to be more sustainable based on our industry knowledge, and we'll see if they differ or, you know, it might be a little more nuanced than just like a black and white, you know, answer. That's what's interesting about this topic. So first, this is a, this is a, um, comparison that has personally brought me a lot of rage. And it's the aluminum water bottle versus the plastic water bottle. They're roughly, you know, about the same size.

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker A: they feel about the same in weight, give or take. But what do you think the consumer, if they saw These two items on the shelf next to each other. What do you think? And all else being equal, we'll pretend that all else is equal with pricing for these two items. What do you think that they would choose based on sustainability alone?

Speaker B: Well, I think there's such a backlash against, uh, plastic that most consumers would say the aluminum bottle essentially can the more sustainable format.

Speaker A: What do you think, Jonathan?

Speaker C: So I, I think that um, there's sort of a legacy here. Right? So you've got, I think that, you know, if you take sort of, you know, the maybe like, you know, a little older generation, et cetera, that grew up with recycling aluminum cans, um then they would look at the can and go, yeah, that one's more sustainable because that's what they're more accustomed to. Plus the fact you could actually reuse it. Right. And so I think that there's a quality, uh, there's an attraction to the metal M can, however, I think that, and I feel that, you know, because it's so prolific as far as sustainability, the plastic bottle wins out. The problem that then becomes is that you see a lot of refuse or trash that happens to be plastic. And I think that that also then has an impact not on this sort of the recyclability and the sustainability, but then, you know, some of the outliers that could be associated, you know, with plastic versus aluminium. And so it's a, that's a really, really tough challenge. But you can see that some, some uh, states, you know, like California, you know, have moved into a, an aluminium bottle versus ah, a plastic bottle.

Speaker A: So wait, what's your answer? A consumer, what do you think that they would think?

Speaker C: It's complicated.

Speaker A: It's complicated. Well, because we'll talk about what we. Well, we'll talk about what we think next.

Speaker C: I'm gonna go with the can. I'm gonna go with the can. And now we can talk about why not.

Speaker A: Well, I agree with you.

Speaker B: Nostalgic qualification, Jonathan.

Speaker C: I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, with that.

Speaker A: Well, I agree with you for the reasons what Mike said is that there's you know, a pretty heavy anti plastics sentiment. Um, and that's the reason why these are being made in at all. Um, I think that people see a uh, bottle like this as a more reusable option versus a bottle like this. Even though you theoretically could reuse this as well. There's nothing saying you can't. There's like this nice little like sport top on it. Um, there's nothing saying that this can't be reused. Um, but I do think that, you know, um, seeing these next to each other, I think that a consumer would think that this was the better sustainable option. Um, if they were side by side, if it was just options for plastic, I don't know that they would think about it too much. But seeing these side by side, they might have that thought where they're like, oh, this is probably the better choice. Um, okay. And now we'll talk about what do you, what do you think is actually the most sustainable option, Mike?

Speaker B: Uh, I think it's the, uh, plastic bottle. But yeah, um, I would, I would say I almost guarantee the, um, the can or the aluminum bottle has a plastic liner in it. And you know, it's.

Speaker A: Let's investigate that.

Speaker B: I don't know if you'll even be able to see it. But.

Speaker C: But that is true that a lot of them are coated. Yeah, but.

Speaker B: But at the same time, you know, it's my lens and the lens that I use. When I think about packaging sustainability is what's the carbon footprint.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker B: Process and the output packet, the carbon footprint for aluminum conversion into cans is hot, is higher, is bigger than the, uh, the plastic bottle concept. And that's, that's really the whole reason both are sustainable. Um, but the question is what's more sustainable?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Plastic bottle.

Speaker A: Right. And along your same lines of carbon footprint. I mean, I just took a sip out of this one and I said earlier, I thought that they were, they, they feel they felt roughly the same weight, but this one is a larger fluid ounce and it does feel heavier. So that also, even that slight difference in weight can compound from, you know, an emission standpoint, um, downstream, you know, when we're talking about, like post, you know, bottling, when we're talking about transportation costs and things like that. But Jonathan, what's, what's your thoughts on

Speaker C: what you think is the best? I agree with Mike. You know, from an LCA perspective, not only, you know, the formation of the raw material and the heat required to process aluminium versus, uh, you know, plastic is huge. Um, and so. And then there's actually the converting, um, you know, from, from other perspectives, line speed, et cetera. But, you know, I don't know that there's going to be too much difference there from, from those efficiencies. Um, but essentially, to me, the plastic bottle has a much lower carbon footprint and a much, uh, better lca.

Speaker A: Um, so that's interesting. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker C: No, no, no, no, go ahead.

Speaker A: No, I was going to say that's interesting that you both brought up the that, um, the conversion process and the carbon footprint of actually producing the bottles. Because the. What's on the bottles, again, if we're think talking from the consumer's perspective and they're both side by side, there's no information about that. And that's why a whole LCA picture is most, is what's most valuable for determining sustainability. They both say 100% recyclable. 100 and produced from 100% recycled material, like recyclable materials. So side by side it seems like, okay, like they're both recyclable, they're both, you know, whatever. I think aluminum's a more sustainable option. I'll just choose aluminum. But you don't get that behind the curtains picture. So, um, I'm gonna agree with you guys. I think the bottle is, um, the more sustainable option. Um, when we get into a little bit later in the episode, the messaging around sustainability is it'll be a little bit, it'll be interesting to kind of analyze. I don't want to jump too far ahead in the episode, but the messaging that's used on these two different bottles is interesting, um, to me. So. All right, we'll go on to the next two.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker A: Okay, so we have a plastic and I'll tell you what the material is. M. Uh, polypropylene yogurt cup. And we have a glass yogurt with a cardboard or paperboard over wrap. So what do you think the consumer would think is the more sustainable option?

Speaker B: The glass?

Speaker A: Glass? Jonathan

Speaker C: M. Well, you know, again, I think that they, from a legacy perspective would probably think about it from glass. But I think that there's so much more, um, consideration these days for plastics, you know, and, and, and people underlying, I feel that they know that, um, I, but I, but unfortunately, you know, and there's a quality thing, especially you know, like the aluminium can that we were just looking at. You know, there's kind of a quality perception as well, which also plays into the psychology of should I buy this one or should I buy this one? Which one's more sustainable? Um, but I think from. I know which one's more sustainable, obviously, but the, but I think that, you know, the glasses is something that, you know, they, they gravitate to.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm a little split, to be honest. This one in particular, because, um, I feel that this looks like a more luxurious package just in general. And I don't know that luxury also equates to sustainability. I think if somebody has a mind for reuse and this is like you know, goes back to the bottle. Like, if someone's actually really going to reuse that aluminum can and like 30 times, then, like, it actually will probably be the more sustainable option. But most people don't actually do that. Right. Same thing with this. I've heard people say once that they turn these little yogurt cups into flower pots. If you're gonna do that, like, that's great. Um, most people probably won't do that. And then that ends up. It ends up being of the heavier, um, item. From that perspective, the cart M. And I don't know too much about glass production versus.

Speaker C: I mean, you're. Yeah, it's huge. I mean, the heat that you need to convert, um, and to manufacture glass is. Is huge. And of course, then there's the weight, there's the transportation. So again, you know, it's kind of like, you know, could you come up with a simplified picture of an lca, you know, that compared some of these things to justify, you know, which one's more sustainable? But the glass is heavy. You can't, you know, you can't nest it. Like, the cup, it's got a stack shoulder on it. So you can nest it. Um, so you can literally, you can fit four, four times, uh, as many plastic containers on a truck. So there's all of these other considerations that go into that. So it's like, you know, point of purchase, you know, psychology. Am I thinking sustainability or I'm. Am I thinking that looks pretty tasty? I should try that?

Speaker B: That's the crux of this conversation, Jonathan. It's. It's a consumer makes decisions quickly based on visual cues and messaging.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's. And Natalie, I totally agree with your. Your premises. Is it a luxury product? I think in that category they would call it an indulgence product. But the one thing I do like about that format, at least as how it presents to customers, is that it's a minimalistic approach to luxury or indulgent crop.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I mean, and it looks, it looks nice.

Speaker C: Like, beautiful. Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker A: I mean, they both do. Honestly, they both are nice packages. Something that I think is, like, just interesting to point out is, um, the yogurt, the plastic yogurt cup. Right on. It says that it's widely recyclable because it's polypropylene container. So we obviously know that that's the case. Whereas this one says recycle this label, it doesn't say recycle the container, which I think is interesting.

Speaker C: Do you think that that's because people already assume that it is recycled. Maybe that's a good point.

Speaker A: Yeah, they don't need to clarify that point, but they do want to clarify about the label.

Speaker C: Yeah. Something that really changed my mind on glass. I mean, you know, besides all of the LCA and things like that was, was the safety factor of recycling it. And that really became a big concern of mine. Um, in certain municipalities, you know, you put everything into a collection bin.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Including glass and things like that. Well, well then what was happening is, you know, glass shards were showing up in the recycle or the reclaim. And so a lot of municipalities then moved away. But it struck, you know, it struck me as like, oh, you know, that's, that, that, that could kind of be a uh, little dangerous, you know, safety hazard.

Speaker A: So I always think that too, like at our transfer stations, like they have, you just, they used to have us send these, the glass down this chute into this giant thing. You would just hear it shattered. Just sounds dangerous. All right. Yeah. Uh, next, last one.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: We have a glass tea bottle and a plastic tea bottle kind of similar to what we saw.

Speaker C: So now you've done something very interesting. All right, so the aluminium can versus the bottle. Like I would have, like to look at the smart water versus the, the aluminum can because they're very similar in shape.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Which would have made it a little bit more difficult. So in this one you've got them almost the same. Right. From a. Yeah, yeah. From a quality perspective. And I'm going to go with, you know, I, I actually feel that the gold peak has got shape. It's got, you know, it's, it's more, to me, it's more user friendly versus than just a glass jar, which is what I feel like you're drinking out for the justice tea. But um, from a sustainability perspective, I think for whatever reason, and maybe it's just me, the ice, the. I, uh, the uh, the, the plastic container just seems to be more friendly. And, and so, you know, that's something that I think that also plays into sustainability or packaging. Sustainability is like, is it user friendly? Is it, you know, does it look, you know. Yeah. So I, I honestly think in that case with those two products, I think that they would go for the plastic.

Speaker A: Okay, firstly, what do you think?

Speaker C: I may be wrong.

Speaker B: Boy, that somebody never sounded more like a 40 year packaging nerd than right there. I think that a consumer would look at the really again, minimalistic glass bottle and labeling and say that is the more sustainable and preferred format.

Speaker A: So I can completely See both sides. Because I get what you're saying, Jonathan. This with the green used. And we'll talk about this later in the episode. The quality of the bottle, plus the use of green on the packaging, I feel like, kind of calls to me in a different way than this, than the design of this bottle. Despite the fact that splash. And honestly, like, up on the shelf, I feel like these look the same quality. It's like only when you touch it that it's like the difference becomes apparent.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, these are. Difference. There's a different, you know, that the goal. The goal. Actually, it's a different filling process. I believe that's a heavier plastic bottle than, um. Like. Yes. Normal. That's right. So I feel that there's a. You know. But again, here. Does that play the psychology?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I would also agree with Mike, where I think that if somebody already, like, just. Is a person who truly just believes in all, like, all the time, that plastic is the worst option that they'll go for this. So I think that this is a tough one. It's like if someone is not super. Is not super in tune, and they're like, oh, you know, this one maybe looks like the more environmentally friendly option. I'll take this.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, it could go. I think it could go either way with this one.

Speaker C: Yeah. But then, you know, and then the glass is subject to the LCA at the end of the day.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like we talked about with the yogurt container. It's the same thing. So. All right, well, we're going to keep referring back to these. So I don't want to spend too much of that. I want to get into the episode.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Because we've kind of touched on a lot of different things that consumers. I think that really affects their perception. Um, so, I mean, let's jump into the topic du jour. Um, so what. Let's. We're talking about what consumers think sustainability looks like. And There was a 2023 report by Trivium that found that 71% of consumers actively prioritize products with sustainable packaging, 59 seek explicit recycling and sustainability information on labels, and 80% express interest in refillable packaging to reduce environmental impact. So the interest is there to make that sustainable choice. So when we talk about that 71% where they actively prioritize products with sustainable packaging, what exactly does that mean? So this is where you kind of get into the, uh, idea of emotional sustainability versus what's sustainable in reality. And emotion does play a really big part in this decision making. So some of the things that came up when I was doing some research on from an emotional perspective, what says sustainability to consumer. So one would be brown paper.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: 68% of US consumers associate brown paper with eco friendly brands compared to just 33% for white. And so that's talking about like, you know, um, a paper bag or something like that. Um, and it's kind of funny because this had me thinking back to um, a project that I worked on that was in plastic many years ago and it was in black. It was a black bowl. And I was asked to color match to a like fat, like a fiber, molded fiber bowl. It was still in plastic, but they wanted it to look like the molded fiber bowl because they're like, people just think it looks more sustainable, like it's still plastic and they're like, yeah, ah, I don't know. So that kind of um, goes along with that. Second one was matte textures. So um, matted or rough textures says less processed and more natural. Um, and a lack of coating or gloss, um, says to people that it's not plastic and probably easier to recycle a glossy plastic, I guess, versus a matted, um, plastic or a, um, different matted material. People thought that that seemed like a more natural material and was more sustainable.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, and that's sort of like, I mean, I think through the years people have said, okay, well, you know, they sort of went from, you know, white to white gloss. And then, you know, how do we sell more product and get more premium? Well, let's go to black. And then they were like, yeah, kind of looks premium, but how do we make it so it looks more sustainable? And exactly to your point. You know, then you sort of see a lot of matte black, but you still see a lot of, lot of gloss glossy containers out there as well.

Speaker A: Um, well, and that's something in particular that I notice with this package that I picked up. Yeah, it's not white. It's like off white.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: And it's also matte finish.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I just thought that was such an interesting choice at first.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, after doing this research and I'm like, I don't know that I would have really picked up on it too much if it weren't for looking into this. Same thing with this, this one. And this is even more interesting because the container itself is actually white. They put an over wrap and a top on it that's off white.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's, I guess, you know, I guess they read the same report I did. Um, another one is, um, minimalist design. So yeah, the grocery store ran out of the comparison that I had for this one. But this is a Siggy's yogurt.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, sure.

Speaker A: With vanilla. There's also a. This is vanilla and cinnamon, but there's also a version that's just for vanilla that's all white. And it's such a minimalist design. And I just thought the comparison though, of like why they chose to make this one brown versus the other one white, was really interesting. But the minimalist design, I think I can understand why that would seem, um, like simpler. You know what I mean? It's just like more basic, therefore more recycling, I don't know. Versus something that's like a ton of colors or something like that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Conversely, though, earthy colors also say sustainable to people. So like, we're talking about browns, tans, um, greens.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: Imagery of trees.

Speaker C: Yeah, trees, yeah.

Speaker A: Nature. Um, fiber flecks like we talked about.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Oh, so when we go back to color, people think this must be recycled or eco friendly versus muted. And muted print colors or subtle colors evoke a sophisticated or earth conscious feeling. Um, then, yes, a natural appearance of fiber flecks or visible pulp like we talked about. You know, even this one is like.

Speaker C: That's right. Yeah. The got a wrap, a paper. Like a paper.

Speaker A: The wrap is like, is like almost like it's like a texturized print. Like it's supposed to seem like it's texturized. Um, and that says to people that it's authentic or not artificially enhanced. Um, and then we talked about green. So color psychology research shows that green is strongly associated with health and sustainability. White with purity and simplicity, blue with trust and reliability. So using that green color in packaging that you want people to think is more sustainable. I think talking about it specifically between these two.

Speaker C: Right, exactly.

Speaker A: I think that was, um, in very intentional use of green in this package.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but there's different, there's different kinds of green. Like, you know, like, ah, you know, because some green it's like, okay, yeah, it could be natural, but it's like, I'm not buying that.

Speaker B: Different differences in tone and intense.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. And. And texture and to your point, texture and, you know, it's a big thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And then with these two water bottles that we also talked about, they both use the same forest green.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I mean, Poland Springs is really laying it on heavy to get people to feel like this is sustainable. Their Their marketing team is working overtime.

Speaker C: There is. And there's a lot of, a lot of ink on that, that bottle.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. That's a really good point.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean, because, you know, it's, it's, it's completely coated. Right? Yeah, they've. So that whole thing which you know, do consumers really go to that level to think about that? I do, but.

Speaker A: Yeah, you do, but

Speaker C: I don't know if the average person would go, wow, look at all of the ink coverage on that. That's not really. They're not going to, they're going to look. Oh, pretty.

Speaker B: See, I think consumers do and I think it really affects that 7 second window for um, creating a judgment. Uh, I believe that um, your mind maybe takes it in a little bit faster than your eyes or you yourself. But I think judgments are made pretty quickly on the complexity, the appearance, the materials. I think it all plays a real role and that's why looking in the same categories, we see all these different formats because everybody's trying to, to deliver a good product, deliver it, you know, with safety, uh, in mind, but to affect the buying mechanism of consumers.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean you have a matter of seconds to stand out on the shelf amongst um, all those different options. Um, I mean taste be, you know, who cares about what it tastes like? Right. Well, I mean I was just thinking, well I was just thinking to myself as you were saying, that is like my kids, obviously, like kids are drawn to characters and bright colors and things like that. They're not necessarily thinking about sustainability. But I bet you I could take, I could try and give my kids this yogurt and they would tell me they didn't like it. But I bet if I put it into like a brightly colored yogurt, into a brightly, brightly colored container with like bluey on it or something, they'd be like this blue yogurt's the best.

Speaker C: So broccoli or asparagus, a different kind

Speaker A: of psychological when it comes to children. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: But you know, also, I think that that actually sort of extends also to the, to the producer itself. I m think that there's certain producers or outlets out there that are considered more sustainable and you're going to get more sustainable products, maybe like a Trader Joe's or something like that, you know, or some of um, uh, you know, some of the other brands that are out there where they sort of have a little bit more of a reputation, they're promoting sustainability, they're committing to sustain. That's, you know, that's A, that's, that's a channel. Those are messages going out to their, you know, to their, their customers.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You think about the big brands that we're working with and they have different approaches to different products and in the same category they might have flashier or more character driven, um, advertising and packaging for products that are marketed to kids and to those that are marketed to adults. It's a completely different format. Those products that are, uh, more plant based will have a different packaging approach. It can be very nuanced, but I think it's, it's um, there's a large variety even within a single brand and a single product line.

Speaker A: So something else that came to my mind that's not on this list of what consumers associate sustainability with, but I thought could be interesting for discussion is clarity of packaging. So, and you brought this up, Jonathan, with the water. Like this is completely coated. You can't see it. This, you can clearly see like the nice refreshing tasting water. This yogurt is. Cup is completely opaque, whereas this, you can see right through.

Speaker C: You can see it's the quality.

Speaker A: Quality. And like to me, I, you know, and I actually didn't really, really like make that connection with before when I said that this feels like a more luxury package. But like to me this feels like a higher quality product.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Whether or not it actually is. Like I was saying with the kids, I could put the same thing in a different container.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Whether or not it actually is, I don't know because I don't know what. You know, I'm not studying the ingredients. But um, yeah, that's just interesting how clarity can play a part.

Speaker C: Oh.

Speaker A: Um, in perception in that way. I don't know. Again, I don't know how much clarity relates to sustainability per se as it does to quality. But um, it's just an interesting.

Speaker B: Well, so one of our big, um, brands that we work with, uh, introduced fruit on the bottom concept and move from opaque, um, packaging to clear so that they could show the product, show the ingredients. This perception of premium ingredients, fruit on the bottom of their yogurt. And I think they really tried hard to tie sustainability into the idea of. Now we're showing you exactly what's going in it. So you know, we're not putting preservatives in there. It's not overly processed.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we're not using inks and colorants in the packaging. So it's got to be better for the environment. I believe that that scheme has definitely existed in terms of trust versus. Yeah.

Speaker A: The trust element.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean to, to extend that, that thought process, Mike, is the steel can, right? Three years, you know, years and years and years, you know, you know, steel cans have sort of been the standard for retorted products, whether it's retorted fruit, you know, vegetables or what have you. But you trust the picture on the label that it's going to look like that. Right. So pet food has been in steel cans for years and Benefit then said, well now wait a minute, you know, we've got a quality product. We want it to be sort of like a little bit more like human food. Let's put it in a clear container and that launch clear plastic containers for retortable products where the consumer psychologically can go, huh, uh, that's a steel can. I can't see the product, but I can see some peas and carrots and everything else in there. So now does that influence society, the psychology of sustainability? No, but from, from a uh, from a quality perspective, being actually able to see the product?

Speaker B: M. Yeah, I think the Benefos package and product, I should say, um, changed the wet pet food market. Um, it did, it didn't completely shift everybody. But there's a strong segment of people that buy pet food because it's not a pet to them, it's a family member. And they want to treat the that family member with the same care and consideration that they do everybody else in the family. And that means I'm gonna buy the best ingredient. I want to ensure that it. They're using these great ingredients and I will pay for that product in that packaging format because of uh, those impulses.

Speaker A: Well, and if we're to relate, I can, I can understand how that sentiment would then just naturally relate to like this company is doing what's best for me. They must be doing what's best for the environment. You know, it's like you kind of make that like the trust building, you're building that trust through like the quality of your product. So therefore, I think people just are, you know, um, more will, like they would be more willing to place their trust in you in other areas as well. Um, I mean, so anyway, moving on. When it comes to brown matte green, whatever, we know that that actually does not really tell you if it's sustainable or not. It can sometimes, but it's not always. Um, not to say a brown package can't be sustainable. It can sometimes, but it's not the end all be all. So there is another study that I looked at that's called Paper Meets Plastic. The perceived environmental friendliness of product Packaging. This kind of relates to what we were just saying, how people can perceive environmental friendliness just by looking at something and, you know, through these unconscious biases that they have either about the brand or about the material. So the study said, while consumers often want to make environmentally friendly product choices, we find that their perceptions of the environmental friendliness of the product packaging may systematically deviate from its objective environmental friendliness. So in eight studies, they documented what they call the perceived environmental friendliness bias, whereby consumers judge plastic packaging with additional paper to be more environmentally friendly than identical plastic packaging without paper. So this PDF bias is driven by consumers, um, thought that paper equals good and plastic equals bad. This belief by proportional reasoning, wherein packaging with a greater plastic to paper to plastic proportion is judged as more environmentally friendly, even though it has, like, more stuff on it, which is so funny. Um, so people, like, develop these mental shortcuts. You know, the paper equals good, plastic equals bad. And this comes into, you know, when they're out that store shelf, they have the. It's this quick second judgment. These biases that exist that they probably don't, you know, that they may not even know. Um, you know, these mental shortcuts that they may not even know are there. Um, going back to some of the discussions that we had with Christy Arnott, I note that he called this the illusory truth effect, um, where people will, you know, they'll get this belief and they'll continue to believe it, whether or not, you know, even when presented with

Speaker B: evidence that it's not evidence, they will continue to believe.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, someone, for example, who, you know, who's like, really immersed in the antiplastics messaging like, you know, we talked about, when it comes to making these decisions, they'll become even more likely to rely on these emotional shortcuts. It'll be harder and harder to, um, you know, to overcome them.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So, um, you know, continuing on with the, with the findings of the study, the researchers found that when you add paper to plastic packaging, consumers perceive the plastic, the package, as more environmentally friendly, even when objectively it uses more material and could perform worse environmentally. And add a paper sleeve to plastic and consumers think sustainability improved, even if sustainability actually got worse. So that's very well.

Speaker C: And I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that the consumer really doesn't know. You know, at the end of the day, it gets so confusing, you know, and it's like, okay, you know, what do I choose? And that's why, you know, it's so important to have very clear, you know, like the how to recycle label or you know, better directions than we have today, you know, on the chasing hours or something like that. So people can understand, well, wait a minute, I'm looking at this package and it's, you know, it's, it's what, uh, you know, it's not as some, some way to evaluate whether you know, it is more sustainable than you know, another package with other components and things like that. Even though perception unfortunately becomes reality and that, that um, scenario.

Speaker A: So this brings me to my discussion that I wanted to have about messaging though. Because um, I think here is where the industry maybe needs to work more on messaging. Because you both brought up the product like we said, the production process and this versus this and this versus this.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker A: And how plastic is the lower energy production process whereas the messaging is just focusing on, yes, they're both recyclable, but that doesn't differentiate to the consumer. That's not the differentiator from sustainability. This differentiator from sustainability is in that LCA data. And so it's just, I don't know, maybe they think it's too far, you know, over the head of the average consumer. Maybe they think it's too in the weeds with the data. But I do find it interesting that there's never any mention, is only ever mentioned of recyclability or made with recycled materials. There's never any mention of like I am a, like I am a low energy product or like, you know, like I don't. Yeah, I've, I reduced greenhouse gas emissions by X percent. I mean there's uh, in my research I found that there was a 2024 environmental science and technology study that showed that plastic had lower greenhouse gas emissions. Um, you know, in that. And the reductions range from 10 to 90% compared to alternatives. Like why aren't we putting that on the bottle? I don't, is it, is it taboo to say like I reduce greenhouse gas emissions by. I'll just throw out a number 60% versus an aluminum bottle. Like could they say that? I don't. It's interesting that that comparison is never there though. That.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, not what I picked up, but yeah. Well, one of my, one of my favorite things to see, and you see it so rarely, is when a, a brand owner or you know, a food company could be a consumer company, whoever, you know, states, you know, this, this package, you know, that is, you know, has got, is, is more sustainable. We're saving, you know, X amount of, you Know, gallons of, of, of fuel or what, you know, and they, they put together and I love seeing that. I've seen, I saw it a lot in the, during the Olympics for whatever reason. But you know, the Olympics seem to be one of those things where you can see, uh, a lot of that. But I think that there's also the flip side of that. You know, they're trying to sell product and they don't want to offend maybe somebody that says, oh, I love plastic and it's the best thing and I hate glass or I love glass and I hate plastic, you know, and so they don't want to somehow I think, have a negative maybe.

Speaker A: Yeah, maybe it feels deception.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And so that's a real dilemma for them. Um, but you know, the fact is, is that to me that's more of an equalizer. If you could put that information in a. And uh, we've, we're trying, you know, the industry has been trying for years, right, to try and figure out that, that particular component out to say, yes, this package is actually not only recyclable but also more sustainable.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And maybe even if you don't say compared, you could just say compared to alternatives like it does in the study.

Speaker C: Don't call out messaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: But even just saying like, you know, this product was produced using lower greenhouse gas emissions than alternatives or something like that, kind of highlight some of those areas where plastic maybe will, will have a bigger differentiator versus alternative.

Speaker C: Now there's also. Well, so you got to think about, as well as what has happened over the last 20, 30 plus years is there's a lot of snake oil out there, there's a lot of, lot of greenwashing. So as a consumer, you know, how am I going to get influenced by that messaging? Um, which could be completely erroneous. I mean, you know, there's example after example after example where the ftc, you know, was putting in rules and regulations, uh, so that they can, you know, limit some of the, the greenwashing that's been going on over the years.

Speaker A: Yeah. Mike, what were you going to say?

Speaker B: Well, you know, in my research for this, I, I read a few things and then I gave it some thought. Um, can you imagine that on any single visit to the grocery store, our brains make tens of thousands of assessments and decisions?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: So the idea, and we're really wired to make that assessment in seconds, just

Speaker A: a couple of seconds.

Speaker B: Uh, the idea of adding really, um, factual and declarative verbiage or symbols to Packaging so that that would help people make those decisions. Probably only works on 0.1% of consumers.

Speaker A: Well, I don't, I agree with you. I don't think it would actually make a difference at that decision moment when you choose to grab it. I think maybe, perhaps it would come later.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it could.

Speaker B: And, uh, but again, I think it would be for a smaller portion of consumers. And that's why the topics that we're talking about, understanding and leaning into color, texture, shape, all the kind of hues that your brain uses to make those 2, 3, 4, 5 second judgments and help you get through that 10,000 decisions on your trip to, uh, to the grocery store is what packaging companies should be leaning into. Um, or brands should be leaning.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I completely understand your perspective. As I keep looking at these two water bottles, though, I just have to note, I talked, I said I wanted to talk about the messaging. So this bottle says. This bottle is 100 recycled. And it says it in, like, big, bold layers. Pull in springs. And then it's like, talks about rewards and stuff. This bottle is like telling you a story.

Speaker B: It's experiential.

Speaker A: It is like, really trying to make you feel like this. It's from the same place. Yeah, it's literally the same water. They're trying so hard to make you feel like, like you made the right choice by getting this up here. Since 1845, for over 175 years, we've been devoted to providing 100 spring water from only natural sources.

Speaker C: Yeah. What Exactly.

Speaker A: It's the same story with both water, but it's just like they're like, I think they're really leaning into, like, the person who makes this choice cares so much about what they pulled off the shelf. And like, we're gonna, we're gonna tell them. It's just, it's, it's really interesting.

Speaker C: Wow. You know, and it's in that messaging from, from the, uh, producer. Right. From Polar Springs. In this, this case is like, okay, we want, we want to sell to this market segment and also we want it to this one. And so what they've done is that you can have plastic or metal.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yep. All right. So some of these psychological drivers can be based on what consumers see. And this is what. We've also talked about this before. The bag in the wind, um, looks dirtier. It looks worse. Consumers see ocean, plastic, litter, landfill imagery, viral environmental content of plastic building up. Let's not even get into microplastics. And the messaging around plastic, plastics in our brain. Oh, my God. Um, what they don't see though is, you know, when you're talking about alternatives, what they don't see is transportation emissions and energy intensive manufacturing, which we touched on the carbon impacts of heavier material, food waste from poor packaging performance. So this all goes back to that emotion that we were talking about. These, the things that actually move the needle, like make the difference is not very marketable.

Speaker C: It's not like it's very challenging.

Speaker A: Consumers are not seeing it. They're not tying, uh, no one's tying their emotion to the fact that glass is a more energy intensive manufacturing process. Process than plastic. That's like. So they don't know.

Speaker C: They don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's really, you know, you, you bring up a really interesting point. You know, when I go to the grocery store and yeah, you know, I love to look at all the kinds of packaging, but what I'm really actually looking at is more sort of, you know, what I think the quality of that product is in that package. And if I go, yeah, that, that uh, that glass jar with the, all of that yummy food on the bottom, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to give that a shot. Right. I may still revert back later, you know, but, but to your point, later I'll go, huh, huh. I'm throwing away a glass jar, you know, or from a safety perspective, you know. You know, I guess, uh, my point is, is that after that, you know, split second decision on what I'm going to buy, then it's sort of like buyer's remorse. It's kind of which, which bin is it going in? You know, when in doubt, throw it out. No, you don't want to do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, interesting.

Speaker C: But then the psychology comes into play when you're actually going to throw it out. Is it sustainable? Can I recycle it? Should I, should I buy that one next time or. And it was okay, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Um, this also goes back to what I was saying, you know, towards the beginning of the discussion as 71% of consumers actively prioritize. So like, people say that they care, but then I guess it comes down to like, how much, you know, because it's like if you're asking somebody, yeah, do you care about sustainability? Like, who's gonna say no? Like, not many people understand.

Speaker C: I remember when a customer of mine years ago when sustainability. So he goes, well, what is, tell me, what is sustainability? And I was like, m. That's a really good question. It's a little too soon. To figure that out. You know, it's like, so how's the average consumer gonna go? Okay, I understand the full sustainability in the LCA and all of the other components that went into manufacturing and transportating that glass jar versus a plastic.

Speaker A: You know, if you put yourself in like someone's shoes, they're in the grocery store, they get approached by somebody like, you know, running a study. Do you care about the sustainability of the packaging that you buy? They'll be like, yeah, sure. I guess, like, that's probably what their answer is. It's not like, sure.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, let me think about it. Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Then imagine they run into someone like Jonathan and he's like, well, based on the peer reviewed LCA studies, not just

Speaker C: the board, I'm like, well, I'm so glad you asked.

Speaker A: Thank you for asking. I've been waiting for years for somebody to ask.

Speaker C: It's true.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's. This was a really interesting topic and kind of interesting to take a step back and examine, you know, why people potentially make this decisions that they do, especially from our perspective and, you know, others in the industry who are listening to this episode. It's like we are in the weeds with a lot of this stuff. And in reality, the decision making process from the consumer is actually a lot more basic than we would probably like. So anything else that you guys want to bring up about this topic before we close out?

Speaker B: I mean, I'll talk for another 45 minutes, so.

Speaker A: No, that's okay.

Speaker B: That's okay.

Speaker C: I think that, you know, through this discussion, it's evident that this is very complex. You know, this is, this is just such a conundrum in many, many respects. And, you know, there's a lot of influencers or influencers out there that are not valid. And how do you, uh, how do you sort through that? And so it is, it's a really big challenge. I think that at the, you know, at the end of the day, there's an awful lot of energy. You know, we go to a lot of the conferences and things like that around sustainability. And this, I think, you know, this, this recording, you know, brings it to light that, you know, it's, it's a, it's challenging. There's not a silver bullet. You know, there's a lot that goes on with regards to the psychology of packaging, especially, you know, with, uh, a lot of the CPGs and, you know, whether it's in consumer products or in food or what have you. So, yeah, um, you know, that's my. I guess that's My two cents is that, yeah, you know, we keep, we're going to, we're going to, you know, keep, keep going to try and figure out the mind and psychology of the human, human actions.

Speaker A: Just like with a lot that we talk about, it's nuanced, um, it's not simple and, you know, there's a lot, a lot that goes into it. So I enjoyed talking about this with you guys. I'm looking forward to all. You know, this is making me really hungry and, like, ready to go eat a snack. Like having this in front of me for the whole episode. I can't wait to try this and get eaten. Yeah. Awesome. Well, that's our episode for today. Thank you so much for joining us. If this is a topic that particularly interests, I encourage you to go back and listen to episode 26 with Professor Joanna Gavins, where we specifically talk about how the language that is used to discuss plastics psychologically impacts our purchasing decisions as well. Um, so tying that together with, you know, kind of some of the psychological drivers of really sustainability, I think, you know, those two episodes, uh, marry up very well. Make sure to follow us on LinkedIn. And, um, in the meantime, for more information about us, you can visit our website at www.icpg.co. if you'd like to take part in the conversation, follow us on social media at ICPG on LinkedIn, ICPGCo on Instagram and Twitter, or you can email us@icpgimpactgroup.co. and of course, you can listen to our podcast on our website and on all major podcast channels. We hope you enjoyed getting a little crazy about packaging with us and we'll talk to you next month. Thanks a lot.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Bye Bye.

Speaker C: Sam.