Saving Tequila w/ David Suro

Speaker A: Hello everyone and welcome back to Crafted on the Blister Podcast Network. I'm your host Eli Brown and today I had the pleasure of co hosting with the wonderful Simon Stewart, fellow craft enthusiast and all around incredible Irishman. That being said, uh, today's guest is probably of more interest, especially given his storied background. While he told me to refer to him solely as a quote, agave spirits enthusiastic. As Simon later points out, I believe agave spirits expert is a much more fitting description. David Soro is the Mexican born owner operator of Tequila's Casa Mexicana in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The restaurant opened its doors in the 1980s and was the catalyst for the rest of David's journey in agave. He's also the founder of Siembre Spirits, an agave importer focused on the people and techniques being used to make truly traditional tequila. As well as the founder of Siembre Sorof Foundation, a non profit which supports agave producing communities with access to resources like clean drinking water, renewable energy and educational opportunities. David is also the founder of the Tequila Interchange Project which advocates for sustainable and traditional practices within the agave spirits industry. And perhaps most importantly or most well known, the co author of Agave Spirits the Past, Present and Future of Mezcals, which which was awarded the James Beard media Award in 2024 and is the book on agave spirits. In this conversation we explore David's agave centric life from his days spent smuggling tequila into the US for tasting purposes, all the way up to the Mezcal Manifesto, David's prescient outline for a sustainable future in the production of agave spirits. This episode of Crafted is presented by our Blister Craft Collective which is a collection of some of our favorite craft companies. You can learn more about these companies on our website and we'll include a link to the craft collective in the show notes of this episode. Check them out because we are confident that some of these companies are going to become some of your favorite companies too. All right, without further ado, here we go. Hello everyone and welcome back. I am joined today by the lovely Simon Stewart, who I'm so stoked to be back on the podcast with. It's been a minute, Simon, and our special guest today, Agave Enthusiast, is what I was told to refer to you as. I feel like that's not quite giving you the credit you deserve, but we'll go with that for now. Uh, I'm here with David Soro and David, I'm going to start you off with the same question that we Ask everyone to begin the podcast. Where are you and how are you today, Bob?

Speaker B: It's great to be with you guys. And, uh, I'm sitting right now in my office in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And, um, things are great. Things are good. Happy to be here.

Speaker A: Wonderful. And, uh, we mentioned at the beginning of this recording, obviously, uh, folks can't see it, but over David's left shoulder is a collection of agave that I would love to dig through. And you mentioned that it kind of flows in between your office and the restaurant. And you mentioned that the restaurant is right downstairs. Am I correct about that?

Speaker B: That's correct, yes. I happen to leave where I work and work where I le. Home above work. Yes.

Speaker A: Good. Awesome. So I think I want to start the conversation with that restaurant today. Um, it seems like when kind of doing a little background research into you and trying to get a little more information, it kind of seems like the Tequila, the restaurant, was like a primary factor in sort of like your journey. So. But you were born in Mexico, if I have that correct. So why don't you kind of walk us through, like, how you ended up sitting in Philadelphia over the restaurant that you've owned for 30 years now, or however long it's been.

Speaker B: Yes, well, yeah, definitely the restaurant is, um, the main focus for many years. Uh, it has been, ah, is the vessel of my journey in what I do professionally. The restaurant opened back in 1986, so this September, we're gonna turn 40 years old.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: So it's been a while, and it's been an incredible journey. If you think back four decades ago, agave spirits, they were in a complete different place, uh, in perceptions.

Speaker C: So

Speaker B: when I opened the restaurant and I decided to call the restaurant Tequilas, you know, that was. For me, that was a. An obvious name because I was born and raised in Guadalajara, which is considered the epicenter of tequila. That's the city where most of the tequila live. And, uh, that's where the institutions regulate the category. It is a city that, um, no matter where you are, who you are, you are somehow related to Tequila. So I found very appropriate to use that name to call this little restaurant that we opened in downtown Philadelphia back in the 80s. And, uh, one of the interesting things was that, um, the name immediately raised some concerns about my restaurant fellows in the city. They saw this young kid that was 23 years old when I opened the restaurant. So they saw this young kid that was, um, doing weird Mexican restaurant because he was not hanging pinatas or sombreros on the walls, and he was Using white tablecloth in the table settings. But dene, they approached very kindly and kind of like in a respectful and mentoring way to say, listen, we love what you are trying to do here, but please change the name. That name uh, is kind of like reflecting or generates um, a lot of question marks about the credibility of your restaurant. Because it's a very negative connotation behind that word. It's a bad experiences, it's related to something cheap. And I said wait a minute, it can't be that bad. So instead of changing name back in 86, it became another layer of uh, motivation and incentive for me to uh, add it. Not just a uh, culinary program that it was very serious and focus on authenticity, but uh, we also want to emphasize on agave spirits. So pretty much the culinary program and the bar program, they focus in change misconceptions and to show our customers that in Mexico was uh, above and beyond stereotypes. So that's how this begin. You know, it was a very important, very important element on the restaurant. The tequila and mezcal factor.

Speaker A: Yeah. Simon.

Speaker C: David, I think it's probably safe to assume that well today a restaurant uh, named Tequila's wouldn't raise an eyebrow anywhere that it is in the world, likely. But back in 1986, it was before the big popularity of tequila happened in the U.S. i would say. Would you agree with that? And also there was still like you mentioned, a bit of stigma around tequila with people having bad experiences and just plain using it to get drunk. Would you say that's fairly accurate?

Speaker B: Correct. Yes, that's, that's what it was. And ah, and the food also, I mean if we, I know we are focusing on the spirits, but food wise also back in those years Mexican food was extremely, extremely, I don't want to use the adjective poor, uh, but it was not reflecting what Mexican food was all about. It all that richness, all that creativity, all those aromas, diversity and ingredients, flavors were not there. I mean we were pretty much the only thing most of the American people was only exposed to the infamous chimichangas and burritos and taco salads, uh, very casual ways to present Mexican food to customers. It was only a few places I uh, remember in Santa Fe, Coyote Cafe. Coyote, that was one of the pioneers. You have also Rick Bellis in Chicago who was also introducing. We have um, Diane Kennedy with her books and research on Mexican food. So that was the beginning of Mexican uh, food to be seen from what it really was. Um, and you know, four decades later, I mean we have some Incredible food programs, Mexican restaurants in the United States that can compete very, very comfortable against any Mexican cuisine. A Michelin star cuisine in Mexico City or Guadalajara. So we came a long ways and on the spirits, well, I mean in spirits from you know, worms to the bottle of, a bottle of mezcal to uh, you know, the gold tequilas, now we are going into an incredible diversity of mezcalas and um, incredible tequilas who are really conquer the most sophisticated and demanding palates across the world, and especially United States, which is the largest market in the world for agave spirits.

Speaker A: Win just to stick on the food really quickly and then we'll, we'll move on to the liquid. But it's often occurred to me, like, where do you think that sort of Americanized version of Mexican food came from? Because I think like, even in this small town in Montana, Missoula, we now have like, there's still the mix where it's like the family owned Mexican restaurant that's mostly focused on like chimichangas and like that sort of thing. But then there's also like a finer dining restaurant, um, called the Camino here that I spend a lot of time at that's like Oaxacan inspired and is a real celebration of Mexican cuisine. And so I'm wondering, I guess, like, what do you see as like the primary differences there? And on top of that, like, where do you think the like, weird Americanized version of Mexican food came from?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, uh, you know, it's very easy to trace that those phenomenons, you know, the chimichangas and the burritos are Tex Mex foods. Um, and it's nothing wrong, actually. I love a good chimichanga and good burrito, but if it's done in the right way. I think what happened back in the 70s and the 80s, uh, we take these dishes and everybody pretty much did whatever they want with it. And it was no guidelines, it was no expectations of, um, sophistication, of creativity. Mexico was always related to this very casual, super casual, festive cliche of sombrero. So the Mexican food and the Mexican culture was pretty much preserved. That stereotypes and that image in United States, uh, that was supported by Hollywood, was supported by the Mexican movies, the words export. So everything was around these stereotypes. But I mean, I remember that transition when we as the restaurateurs that I mentioned before and these food concepts start to introduce, um, real, culturally speaking, real diversity. The American consumers were seduced by it. I mean, what is not there to convince any sophisticated palate that you have good food in front of you. When you have a good mole poblano or a good bole negro or a good pipian, I mean, there are dishes, they are incredibly complex and sophisticated that, um, starve to be also wanted by consumers. And thanks God, there were also chefs and young chefs to start to pay the attention into a proposition based on real Mexican food, which is what happened to tequila and mezcal. You know, I mean, when I opened the restaurant, I had to confess that for the first seven, eight years I was drinking scotch because the tequilas that were available in the market were mixedo tequilas were highly industrialized, you know, bad spirits. But when the 100% agave tequilas started to became available in the market, uh, a lot of very demanding scotch drinkers, whiskey drinkers, they start to get their snifters, uh, also filled up with, um, good agave spirits. And one of the beauties about agave spirits is that we know so little about it. It's still at that stage where it's a lot of mystery around these mezcaldes. Uh, it's things that we still, yeah, historically don't know. It's a lot of things that scientifically we still try to decodify. So it's a category that, uh, offers to any type of consumer, um, an incredible space to explore and enjoy which Mexican food is the same way. Also, no matter if you go to the eastern, southern part of Mexico, you're going to have a complete different techniques and food that you go to the northwest of Mexico and central Mexico.

Speaker A: So it would have been a lot easier to just change the name of your restaurant. And yet you didn't do that. And we're all very thankful for it.

Speaker B: I was not going to give up that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess, like, what were sort of the, like, first steps that kind of led you on to the, you know, stage for agave spirits that you're on now? Did you set out to, like, start educating the public? Were you trying to bring in one, uh, hundred agave tequilas? What were your first steps for sort of like, I don't know, educating people about that name and, like, trying to figure out how you would operate based on a name that other people were telling you you shouldn't have?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, I started to smuggle good tequilas into my.

Speaker A: There we go.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: They rapidly and dangerously became, uh, popular that people were coming to the restaurant and they say, somebody tell us that you have a low cabinet where there are good bottles of tequila. So, yes, I was not selling it. I was tasting, uh, people and making differences. And um, this is what, you know as tequila, and this is what we drink in Mexico as tequila. And when people were tasting the differences, they just can't believe that they were tequilas, what they were comparing in front of them. Uh, so, yeah, the restaurant became like a great platform for me to start to get people closer to the category and to understand, uh, from a different perspective. And then with the time, I realized that, uh, even if I had this captivated audience on the restaurant, there was a lot of room to go out there and help people outside of the restaurant and help, uh, professional people, industry people, uh, to supply elements for them that they can continue to create that awareness. So that's what it start to became more demanding for me because back in the 80s, it was very little papers to read about agave spirits. It was very little books about agave spirits. Um, so in my frequent trips to Mexico to research, uh, I became friends with a lot of the. What were the few academics that were focusing in different topics related to a goddess spirits, you know, in the agrobotanical aspect, in the historical aspect, in the chemical aspect. So there was lots of information coming to me. And um, I decided start to talk to a couple of these professors and have this idea to launch, uh, brand that can be the bridge between their knowledge and the people who were willing to absorb that knowledge. And Siembra Spirits became a project after about 10 years of working on it. And finally in 2005, we launched our first expressions of Siembra. Ah, Azul. We were focused on tagua since the beginning, ah, you know, and um, celebrate the diversity of flavors and aromas that are generated by tagua on agave spirits. So we went to the highlands first, and that's where we develop our foundation as a project. And then we went to the bayes, to the lowlands. And then we expand to Michoacan with Mezcalas. And um, you know, it's been a beautiful project that, uh, um, give me the necessary tools to approach people who love agave spirits. So it's been 20 years that this project has been traveling and. And focusing on helping people. That first goals that I set when I opened the restaurant to continue to help people to approach to tequila en mezcal with minimum distractions of marketing and fancy bottles and celebrity. It's pretty much focused in the people who is behind these spirits, in the human aspect of agave, uh, spir. And the history that we still try to decodify. We still don't know exactly where we're coming from. As a category, it's a beautiful and sometimes incendiary, uh, topic about uh, where distillation coming from. It was thanks to Europeans or it was pre existent up to the arrival, which is a topic very passionate. So it's a project that focus on things that typically are not commercially or marketing savvy if you want to grow your brand. But um, the economical incentive is not what moves this. Um, this is more still pretty much the mission set in 1986.

Speaker A: Yeah, go for it, Sammy.

Speaker C: I'm just, uh. David, I'm a little unclear. Like this is great because it's absolutely fascinating, but it sounds like historically there is a little bit of murkiness as to the origins of agave spirits. Am I understanding that correctly?

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. There are two lines of research. One is um, the conventional line of uh, investigation and the official story is that um, Pedro Sanchez de Tagle, a Marquis of Altamira, was sent by the king of Spain, uh, to teach indigenous people how to distill pulque. Well, that reminds me when I hear the first time the, you know, White Snow story and the seven swords, you know, it's like, it's a beautiful story. Uh, uh, but um, no, I was always um, suspicious about that version because uh, if you expose yourself enough to, you know, the arias in the Sierra Madre, in parts of Mexico where there is an incredible mezcalis that you can still, uh, try. Um, the methods of distillation have nothing to do with the um, metals that were introduced by the Spaniards, which there was the Arabic distill, um, you see, wood distillation, clay distillation. Yes, Some of that distillation in wood, it was introduced by the Filipinos who were brought by the Spaniards as slaves. But uh, there are techniques and there are archeological sites that they uncover vessels made out of clay that now we know due to uh, biomolecular ah, test that they have agave residuals. And um, it is a fascinating studies. They've been done by a group of archeologists and anthropologists and ethnobotanists that um, give us a very clear idea. Now this is in my opinion that there was something there before Europeans arrived. The vessels that I referenced to, they are 2,500 years old. The ones that have been analyzed, they've been carved behind. Um, they're very early destinations to take place. So for me it's a topic that I think still not 100% agreement on the academia, uh, which I find fascinating, uh, I think more debates on those topics are waiting to take place. Because it happened what a lot of the most respected, uh, archaeologists and anthropologists and historians, uh, saying it really changed the whole history and develop of alcohol beverages in the world. Because 2,500 years ago, that is very well researched. The only distillations that we knew that took place was in China, in Mongolia. But the interesting and fascinating things that we found in these vessels is that, um, the capachas, they were used in Mesoamerica exactly at the same time that Mongolia was distilling. And the artifacts, the apparatus, they are pretty much the same. So there is a lot there. It's loaded with challenges. But, um, that. That give us a very good idea where we are as far as how much we know. I think the other story of the viceroy and this marquee that came from Spain and it was related to the kings and royalty is more created due to the necessity of gaining respect and credibility socially, uh, for agave spirits. Because, uh, one of the biggest challenge was for the people who start to produce agave spirits in a more industrial way in the late 19th century, in the early 20th century. They have a huge challenge convincing high society or wealthy people that, uh, these products that were connected to the deep Mexico, to the indigenous Mexico was worth it to drink. Uh, you know, Mexico, we had to remember, is a very classist society. So agave spirits were considered just for the consumption of poor people. So this whole story of the royalty and this individual that was described as. And powerful, wealthy, smart and blah, blah, blah, it kind of like tried to attach these spirits to somebody with those characteristics. So it was socially correct to drink them.

Speaker A: But,

Speaker B: um, no. I mean, this character, Pedro Sanchez de Taglia, seems like he was never in Jalisco where the story took place. Uh, he is. He exists, but he arrived to Michoacan and not with the mission of teaching people how to create the stills that had to distill. It was a very powerful family. They arrived in Morelia, Michoacan. Uh, there's a street with the name of this guy in Morelia. Um, his granddaughter, uh, was the first emperor Trist of Mexico.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: And she's actually buried five blocks away from here. Because her husband, when he was defeated in Mexico, who was also from Morelia, she was exiled and she moved to Philadelphia. So there's a lot of links, evidence of this family. It was not quite involved with the production of agave spirit. It was more, uh, on, uh, land owners and very wealthy, uh, new Spaniards settled in the New world. Um, so Pedro Sanchez de Tagle, as we know today, as the father of Pino Mezcalde Tequila. I think he was too busy doing something else. Uh, um. And indigenous people are left behind in burials. Enough evidence that, ah, demonstrate that it was an alcohol beverage used for religious purposes to connect the spirit with the gods. You know, drumness was considered a state of mind that allowed you to approach to the divine, the gods. So that's what we call spirits spirit. So it's very interesting. This is what I tell you in the beginning. The category is, um, unlimited to explore and to get captivated. I always say when I sift tequila, I don't give a damn about the flowers and the essence. And I'm sorry sommelier, but, uh, uh,

Speaker C: me too.

Speaker B: I don't even try to decodify the complexity of agave spirits. Uh, I think we know very little in order to generate correct descriptors because we have the tendency to use a vocabulary that is more into wine or European spirits to describe a goddess spirit, which m makes no sense. I like to guide myself more into emotions, uh, more into sensations, more to moments where I was when those aromas or those flavors or that particular product that I know the producer. A conversation that for me is the descriptors. And what it motivates me to approach to agave spirit, which is in a very reverent way. Yes.

Speaker A: And if there's. There's an interesting parallel between sort of like what you were talking about with the marquee and it maybe being a bit of like a marketing ruse in order to like, get the association of people's minds away from the indigenous people. Well, if we think about, like, that's still kind of going on today with where you were at when you opened tequilas. And then now you've got Casamigos and you've got like all of these celebrity brands that are like, kind of just trying to like, do the same thing again. And celebrity brands is like, for sure something I want to touch on a little later. But in order to kind of keep on a chronological track. That makes sense. You've been now with Sambra, you've been in the tequila importing industry for quite some time now. And so I'm curious about from the 80s to, you know, obviously we know there's like quite a boom going on currently, but what have you seen sort of happen within the market over that time? Uh, specifically related to the tequila pandemic and then the boom that followed. And. Yeah. What has your experience been like? And Simon if you want to follow

Speaker C: up real quick, I just, I was also just to um, to. To build on what you were saying. I'm also curious what the first commercially 100 agave spirit available in the US was. Ah, just as well coming from my job as the layman here, um, the actual enthusiast, because we're going to upgrade David to an expert. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: Well the first crossing of legally crossing registration that we have is August 7th of 1867, I believe. That's when we have actually it was um, uh, tequila to travel from Tequila Jalisco to Santa Fe, New Mexico. That was the first destination register on tequila coming to the United States. I'm pretty sure that was 100%, uh, because there was no need to dilute it back then. Um, and since then. But one of the very interesting parts of agave spirits is that uh, you have to be extremely savvy and extremely careful in planning because you have a raw material like no other raw material in the world of alcohol beverages that it takes such uh, a long period of time to develop and obtain. So the cycles of shortage of agave and plenty of agave are being affecting how we handle the final product. So uh, the adding other sugars to tequila. The first one that we know that it was a general practice of the industry was in 1918, 19 with uh, a pandemia that uh, there was the Spanish fever that uh, affects Mexico big time. It hits Mexico big time. And uh, a lot of doctors prescribe tequila for minimize the um, effects of uh, the fever, the Spanish fever. So actually that's when tequila start to be sold in bottles, in glass bottles. Because it was all like a medicine. Uh, it was such a popular medicine remedy that it created a shortage of tequila and um, they had to dilute it. And the other big One was during Second World War. Um, interesting. Between 1919 and Second World War we have a big alcohol event here in United States provision. But it didn't affect it. It didn't affect tequila as much as we would thought. Uh, but um, um. In Second World War you have to remember that a lot of the alcohol that was coming from Europe was suddenly stopped because it was very dangerous to cross the Atlantic in any direction. So the importations of European wines and spirits declined. Also a lot of the distilleries in the United States slowed down production because the boys were sent to work. So what we can have access in a, uh, convenient and safe way? Well, instead of cross the Atlantic, you jump the river, the Rio Grande and you are in Mexico and You can bring agave spray, you can bring tequila. But we were not ready for that, uh, short notice. And that's when we start to really adulterate or mix other sugars with agave sugars. And, uh, Mixtos became very popular. The lack of knowledge from the consumers allowed the producers to stay in that pattern even after the war was over. So that was, uh, Mixtos, um, were about 95, 97% of the tequilas that we were importing in the United States until the late 90s. That was when the 100% agave tequilas start to make their appearance. And that also coincided with the boom and the Wall street, the ballet. These economical scenarios allow people to start to spend more money in booze. And that was when we started to see bottles over $100 of tequila. That it was something that. That was the best marketing. Some brands use just to put a high price. And people were surprised by and buying them. And then the boom of tequila, it was very steady until it started to attract, uh, investors, big investors who hire celebrities and to create these monster projects that were extracting a lot of tequila and Mezcal in the ways that, uh, definitely shift the market. But at the same time, it creates a lot of awareness of the category. I mean, we have to admit it that, uh, the Kardashians brought a new niche of consumers to tequila. The Clooney project brought another niche of consumers. So I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the cultural consequences and the focus. Instead of being, um, again, the real people, the real producers, the farmers, the small families who still run distilleries, the spotlight became more in the popularity of a celebrity who has absolutely no knowledge of what's going on in an agave farm or.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. Do you remember what the first, like, 100% tequila to hit the market was? Or are you saying that that was present the whole time just in very small.

Speaker B: The, uh, brands that hit the market and it created that shake, that boom. It was, uh, El Tesoro Don Felipe by one of my mentors and great mentor, Felipe Camarena. Don Felipe, Felipe's father from el Pandillo from G4, and the father of Carlos Camarena from Ocho and the father of, um, Jenny Camarena from Tapatio. They introduced El Tesoro Don Felipe and they also. We have a Chinaco tequila. It was also part of, uh, these new tequilas. They were 100%. They were very well produced. Was also one brand that it became extremely successful that was doing this high Price more than quality. That doesn't exist anymore, I believe, uh, Porfirio Tequila. There was bottles that were, you know, I remember there were bottles of $700 a bottle of tequila that was like what it was like these very fancy bottles that we see on the market right now that they taste like corn syrup or whiskey.

Speaker C: I've had that tequila, by the way. For sure.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it was a very. It's always been that niche of uh, people who are more driven by, wow. The wild thing, the, the visuals, the celebrity. But it's also. And one of the things that keep me going and motivates me at the same time. It's people like you guys, it's people who understand the differences and understand that it's uh, many layers there on a spirit that is, um, quite complex and quite delicious and quite different from any other alcohol beverages in the world. Yeah.

Speaker A: And what do you think contributed most to the boom that we've seen? Like not just early 2000s, but I'm talking like within the past eight years. Because agave at this point the fastest growing cab. Big celebrities.

Speaker B: I mean the celebrities and uh, they, they have a huge part of that. But uh, also, you know, people start to use a different language, they start different descriptors. People start to see tequila and Mezcal more linked to uh, this Mexico that is still unknown and mystical. It's a category that seduces a lot of people because we really are invited to explore. To push it more than, you know, is to follow the instructions of a, you know, marketeer in the cognac, in the armagnac is like it's there and it's been there. Very well defined, very well known, very, you know, powerful families. And in Mezcal we are talking of, you know, uh, uh, a maestro Mescalero that is in the middle of the Sierra Madre, that it takes 24 hours to reach out. And then when we bring these spirits to our gore or our Kopita, it's just like, what is it? You know, how you can describe something that you approaching. So it's a category that um, I think we just have the tip of the iceberg. And um, there.

Speaker C: Ah, it's a two part question. David, are you ready for this? I think our audience would really love to hear you explain the difference between Mezcal and tequila. That's part one of the question. Part two is what would you consider to be the more popular agave spirit today?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Okay. It's a very interesting question about which agave spirit is More popular. Because we still try to define what agave spirits are. Who is who in the different denominations of origin. Uh, historically and culturally and technically, we've been producing Mezcal in 29 states. Out of the 32 states in Mexico, there is, uh, evidence of. At one point there was or still producing mezcal. Now we have hundreds of different names, endemic names of those mezcales. You know, hundreds of different names to identify. But what is tequila? What is Mezcal? What is opol? What is. We still don't know. I mean, geopolitically we define denominations of origin. Which I think are, uh, poorly designed and out of focus of the main reasons. Which is protect the cultural value and the ecosystems where they are producing. And promote economical development for the communities. Who owns those denominations of origin. We completely fail in make that happening. So I will say remember Tequila. Not too long ago, it was known as Bino Mezcal de Tequila, from the town of Tequila. So I think that the category within these categories. Or with these cultural beverages. The most popular one is tequila. If we go by liters, by consumption, that by far is tequila. I mean, we are in the millions and millions of liters. Produce and sell worldwide. Then is Mezcal. You know, that has, uh, gained lots of popularity in the last 15 years too. But the difference on consumption and production. Between tequila and mezcal is just enormous. And then you have bacanora, you have the sotol. You have the raicilla work coming in a, um, distant third, fourth, fifth places. So there is still don't know how to define properly, uh, the category of agave distills. Now, the main difference between tequila and mezcal and bacanora and dry silla. Is the definition by these geopolitical, uh, boundaries. And also the regulations and the parameters of production. The main difference between tequila and mezcal is, uh. In tequila, by very questionable and poor judgment. We decide to use only one species of agave. If you want to be able to use. If you want to, uh, be able to use the name tequila in your label. Well, first of all, you have to be produced within the boundaries of the geographical protected area, the denomination. And you are allowed to use only one species of agave. In the case of mezcal, the boundaries are larger. There's a lot more territory to cover the mezcal denomination of origin. And you can use any mezcal that grows between those boundaries, within the boundaries. So that's the main difference. And then if you wanna go a little bit more from, um, production uh, differences. Um, you know, the mezcal has the tendency to. Most of the mezcales is still produced in uh, all traditional ways. The tequila. One of the main difference on tequila is also the industrialization of the vino mezcal de tequila. You know, due to geographical location, the accessibility of highways, uh, railroad ways, the tequila really became very popular. And that's when they decide to separate from the Mezcalis. And that's when they start to make these histories about how to marketing and how to detach themselves from the indigenous Mexico. You know, the tequila became very industrial and aim into mass production. So, you know, steam cooking ovens, mechanical mills, um, now diffusers, you know, Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Yes. Tequila is typically liter, I'm going to speak liter wise in production, capacity of production. Tequila is way more efficient than mezcal to produce, but way less efficient, organoleptically speaking. Okay. Mezcal is less efficient on production, but way more efficient in organoleptic richness. So there are the main reasons and regulations who are very different between one and the other and the other and the other.

Speaker A: Mhm. I think it's important too to you. Like, kind of teased at it there, David, but I'll, I'll play into the trap real quick. So what is it? Why was it a bad idea to only do one species of agave?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's a, it's a spreadsheet, uh reason. It's a efficiency. You know, out of all the agaves that grow in Mexico, which is about 80% of the agaves in the world grow in Mexico. They are endemic of Mexico. Out of all these species of agave that grow and are produced, are used, utilized for distillation. The uh, agave tequilana, however, is a species to give us a lot more sugar content, more yield. So you need less biomass to produce more sugar content. Also out, uh, of all the agaves to grow in Mexico is the one that reached the full maturity in the shorter period of time. So you don't have to invest in the use of the lamb for too long. And also is the agave to give us more offshoots, more hijuelos than any other species. So when the teculeros were self regulated, they decide that they don't want any competition from other varietals of agaves, that they are delicious, they are rich in flavors, but they are very costly to produce. And you know, we create a monocultive that a hundred years later it put us in a position where we are In a very, very, very dangerous ecologically, genetically speaking, you know, that efficiency on the agave, it generates um, a situation that is now m putting the red lights blinking all over the category. Genetically speaking, it's a monocultive and we reproduce only via uh, clones. We don't use cross pollinization. So genetically speaking, the species of Tequilana Weber is exhausted. It has no diversity. So they forget how to defend themselves from natural predators, from natural, from disease that they've been coexistent with them for 11 million years. So what we have to do in order to preserve all these plantations, We have to abuse, uh, of pesticides and herbicides and insecticides. So it's a situation that we have to uh, take um, a closer look, we're approaching rapidly to ah, another pandemic which happened. We have a big scare on the late 90s where we have a disease on the highlands that um, eliminates about 75% of the population of agave. So we do that in the name of efficiency.

Speaker A: Mhm. And that didn't really come home for me until. And I was just, I just pulled it up because I was trying to see who gave this presentation. But years ago at Bar, uh, five Day there was a presentation given on agave. And it didn't. I had like heard this, but it hadn't really like sunk home for me until I saw photos of the plantations, of the agave plantations. And just like it's really stunning how to see one plant just repeated over and over in that way. And it's also funny, I just went back and dug through that. And that photo is from you. The photo that was used in the presentation is one of your photos. So no, you originally changed like kind of changed my thinking on it.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's very, it's very obvious and you know, it was probably like 10 years ago, 15 years ago. But uh, if you talk in terms of agave, that that's only two generations of agave ago. So these cycles are very long that for us to understand the damage or to come up with solutions, it's not like a crop that every year is changing and evolving. Here we have to be extremely careful because whatever we're gonna do for good or bad, we have to be patient and we're running out of time. Mother Nature is running out of patience. To us, through us.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's also, um, if you like weren't familiar, I think it's worth doubling back really quickly to the cross pollination versus the like, asexual reproduction part. That you were talking about there. Do you mind just going a little bit more into depth on that topic?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you know, agaves have been existing for about 11 million years on the planet. You know, they are extremely, probably one of the most resilient living things in the planet. Uh, they can survive in an extreme weather conditions. They can live without a drop of rain for two years. Um, it's one special place in the desert, uh, of California that I like to visit at least once a year. Where is this species, uh, of agave that is called desertee? Um, are the only living things on the desert. They are in areas. Last time when I was there, they were wrecking records of heat. And they were like in the third year would not rain. And guess what? It was there happy. Waiting for me to say welcome agaves. You find agaves? Uh, I mean, I have a drone footage from the summit of the volcano of tequila. That is 9,000ft of elevation, uh, with extremely cold weather. What is on the summit? Agaves. And from 9,000ft to below sea level in the uh, desert in California, you have agaves. So the agaves, due to their ecosystems where they survive, they develop two methods of reproduction. When the conditions are worsened, the agaves have the capacity to clone themselves. So they give us a clone through the root system. And it's a clone. It's genetically, it's exactly like the mother plant. And that's okay to reproduce in that way, but once every few generations. The other method of reproduction is the sexual reproduction, which, you know, the plants patiently storage all these sugars on the heart of the, of the plant through the entire life, the entire cycle of life. And when the agaves reach the end of their life expectancy, they invest all those sugars into develop the quixote, the stern, the flower stem. And then they shoot all that sugar in the form of nectar to attract pollinators. And um, being plants that they do with their metabolism only at, ah, nighttime, it's when they are active. One of the reasons that they live in the deserts is because they shut down and they close their pores so they don't dehydrate. And they go to sleep during the daytime and they are active at nighttime. And they take advantage of the change of temperatures between extreme hot, extreme cold in the desert, for example. And that change of temperatures generate moist in the atmosphere. Well, they are designed in a way, those pancas, they catch that moist and water roll into the pina. And that's how they survive. That sugar, that process, that patience, that resilience attracts bats and night pollinators. The pollen happens to be active, sexually active only at nighttime. So the only vectors that they can use is pollen is a, uh, bats or moths. So the pollinators that they create these symbiosis with, which is the bats, they have the capacity to fly up to 80 miles per night, which means they can spread pollen, uh, 80 miles the radius of the plant that is giving us that pollen which made this populations and the spread of these agaves through the entire Mexican territory in a very successful way. Well, that process and that symbiosis was interrupt, especially in the tequila corridor, because, sure, thinking we decide not to lose the sugars. They're going to feed the pollinators. So what we do, we castrate the plants. So we prevent the plants to reproduce sexually. We want the sugars there. So for over 80, 90 years, the pollinators, they typically feed this corridor of tequila. They don't find food. So, you know, their gps, the natural gps, is relocating. And obviously it's changing. When you take those type of pollinators out of the ecosystems, a lot of things go with them. So we're not just taking away, uh, the genetic diversity that they need to interact and they receive in order to stay up to date and be able to develop mechanisms to protect them from natural enemies. So we are getting, by not using cross polonization, we are putting the species in tremendous dangers of, uh, and not just the species, also the people that interact with these agaves. Because as I mentioned before, the only way that we can create or to obtain healthy agave, uh, plantations is by the use of pesticides and herbicides. So we have to get more and more aggressive every generation because the agaves are getting more and more vulnerable. That aggressiveness translates into chemicals. They are more aggressive not just to the insects, the fungi, uh, the herbs, but to the humans too. So what do you see? We notice an increase, serious and dangerous increase of cancer in farmers that interact with agave crops and other crops in Mexico too. But I mean, it has consequences and you know, circle back to the beginning, 1986. I think the only way that we can incentivate and promote better practices and focus in topics is to educate consumers. So bringing, providing information that is, uh, objective and is, um, studied by experts in every topic is very important to preserve the future of our beloved spirits.

Speaker A: And I think it's really important that people understand like the. Not only is it crazy to look at those photos of the agave fields and see just the, you know, like all the Same crop planted. People might think that's like the same as driving through Nebraska or something and seeing a field full of corn. And I think what really brings it home, like brought it home for me is that knowledge that it's literally the same plant over and over again. It's uh, not the same species of plant. It's literally the same plant. Like copying over same individual over and over.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: We call them blue deserts. You know, uh, I mean you had this. And they're very deceiving because they're beautiful. I mean, you know, the symmetric agave, uh, plantations. When you go uh, to the World Heritage Recognition, to the Paisarje Agavero, the agave landscape, it is stunning. It's beautiful. But if you really see, uh, from the uh, sustainability, uh, and the future of this landscape, uh, we are looking at ah, a disaster of uh, ecosystems not bringing to the deforestation. It's a deforestation in order to make more agave available to the industry. Uh, you see areas that were very diverse in trees and rivers and plants. And now there are blue deserts. Ah.

Speaker C: I'm curious because I'm not super clear on one thing is that just happens with Tequila. The cloning is what we're talking about here. And not so much with the Mezcal, um, varieties.

Speaker B: No, it is happening to Mezcal too because most of the leaders of uh, Mezcal are produced with uh, agave Spadine, which is also, you know, the tequilization of Mezcal is very dangerous. You know, we see Tequila as the um, as the very successful agave category. It's a model that everybody wants to be. So a lot of the espadin, um, agaves that grow in the mezcal denomination of origin, they are using the same practice of reproduction via um, offshoots. And you know, in this last boom of Mezcal and we also is a fact, we also see an um, extra exploitation and destruction of agaves that they are wild agaves. We lost a lot of species of agaves, uh, due to the uh, lack of control of what we are taking. And sadly, uh, some of these very rare, beautiful specimens, they end in diffusers which are going to be just generating sugar but no flavors because a diffuser eliminate all organoleptic elements. So you know, we lose. We have uh, a uh, huge percentage of wild agaves now in the list of the danger of extinction. And that's because we drinking too much and we don't know what we're drinking. Which is a sad uh, thing.

Speaker C: Well David, you Mentioned something that I think you said, the tequilification of ah, Mezcal. Is that right? So the worry is that you're going to lose some of the wonderful diversity that Mezcal is known for by these techniques. Is that how I'm understanding it?

Speaker B: We are exposing ourselves to that, yeah. Because, you know, I mean in today's economical systems and the big players, which are obviously and understandably motivated, um, by cells, but if those cells are strictly motivated by volumes, but not knowing the product that you're selling and not knowing the consequences of the extraction of these products, without really understand what can be the ecological impact or cultural impact, um, we are putting the category in jeopardy. You know, I understand that a big transnational is not going to invest money to create a, uh, cool cultural symbol that is not going to bring profits to the investors at the end of the reports of profits. But, um, this can have a very serious consequences. We are seeing it already. I mean, we are losing endemic agaves, wild agaves, forever. We are extracting and we are eliminating from the face of the planet solutions is educate the consumer and create awareness while you're drinking. But also, unfortunately, on the chain of commercialization, we're not being fair to, to the people on the bottom of the chain, on the beginning of the chain, still have very serious economical challenges on the communities where this Mezcal is coming from and some of the tequilas. So creating that economical dependency of sell more and more and more and more and more kind of put them in a position where they have to extract more than what they are capable to do it. And I know cases now of mezcaleros who are not get benefits, uh, as they were dreaming in the beginning of their projects of export, they had no agave left and they have nothing but fields saturated with agrochemicals that they not even can produce other crops. So sell less, charge more. Marketing our, uh, categories of incredible spirits in a better way and be sure that benefits trickle down in a better, more fair way, which is what a, uh, denomination of origin is supposed to do. You know, promote and protect the people who own those eliminations of origin, not the corporations that they can be in Mexico today making mezcal. And they go to the Caribbean to make Rome, you know, in a decade. Or they can go back to France and make more Armagnac or cognac.

Speaker A: I could keep picking your mind on these topics forever, David. I know you probably have other things to do than talk to me though,

Speaker B: so, um, I got to learn get people drunk downstairs.

Speaker A: Wish I Was there. Wish I was there. One other thing I wanted to touch on here, and it relates to kind of what you're talking about with those differences in denomination of origin. One of the things that I've always thought was really interesting about Mezcal as compared to tequila is the way in which the categories are built on process as compared to built on, like an age statement. And I feel like tequila, like, in building their do sort of stole or, like, look to say, like whiskey production or brandy or scotch. And it was like, so you're going to base the categories blanco, reposado, anejo on, like, an aging requirement. And I've always thought it was like, a really interesting and really cool model for Mezcal to take a focus that looks instead at, like, the production method. So I was wondering if you could, first of all kind of talk us through how Mezcal separates out its categories. Um, artisanal, ancestral, that sort of thing. And then also, whether or not you think, like, is that a good part of the do for Mezcal? Like, did they do something right there? Or has that led to its own whole set of problems?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, the concept is good, you know, to define Mezcal, Mezcal, Artesanal and Mezcal ancestral. I think it sounds good and it's good, but, uh, I mean, you have some mescaleros that they not been using ancestral methods for 10 generations M. And they not available to do it unless they change their traditional methods to produce their Mezcal. You can have a, uh, big international conglomerate to decide to. Why not we produce an ancestral Mezcal? Again, the focus is not on the traditional families, the people who preserve this category from a historical and cultural perspective. These ideas came out of somebody who probably have a good intentions, but, uh, totally disconnected with reality. Ah. I mean, you know, you saw the Mezcales from Santa Catarina, Minas, that, uh, I just came back from visiting Lalo from La Locura. And, um, they were renounced to the category of Mezcal. They decided not to be part of it, not to play within the parameters of the denomination of origin of Mezcal. They decide to renounce that and just go as an agave spirit. Why? Because if they want to continue to be Mezcal, they have to modify their own ways to make their mason Mezcal. So I don't think that, um, the ancestral, artisanal and Mezcal really is the solution. I think there is no solution to start changing things if we don't recognize that we have to start from the base of the producer or the family or the people who's been doing this for generations and generations, maybe 2,500 years. Ironically, we go to the southern part of Jalisco where these Capacha vessels were uncovered in burials. These producers of Mezcal, they're not allowed to use the word mezcal in their products because they are not in the geopolitical, uh, boundaries. So it makes, yes, no sense how you can have Lorenzo Virgen, a producer that is on his late 80s and he carries this, encourage this knowledge that is only, you know, 20 miles away from where these burials were, given us enough proof that they were 2,500 years, you know, previous to his today production. So we really have to reanalyze and we have to um, make it a good historical assessment and cultural assessment. Even parameters, they have to be reviewed. If you read carefully the regulations of Tequila, Mezcal, Bacanora, Raecilla, now they're pretty much done. They're copy paste of the tequila regulations and the tequila regulations. You take a good close look. There were a lot of aspects that were designed based on chemical reactions, chemical elements. They were more towards alcohol, that was extract from sugar cane or grape, than agave. So there is enough studies and attention now into these subjects that I carefully optimistic that we're going to have reviews and we're going to oversee this. And I think it's your generation and your tools to communicate, to spread the word that is going to make these changes possible. Because at the end of the day, it's an economical driven industry. If we have an industry that is interesting to buy traceability, to invest in families who are truly championing traditions, I think the category will secure, uh, or at least increase the uh, consumption of goods, ethical produced agave spirits.

Speaker A: Simon, one last thing there.

Speaker C: Yes. And uh, one of the recurring themes of this conversation is education. And it's come up quite a few times educating the consumer. And well, I'm a consumer and I do feel a lot more educated than I did ah, at the beginning of this conversation. But then I'm a little unclear. How does that change things? How do I now, as a more educated consumer, how can that help?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, very simple. I mean, when, you know, for example, the challenges, the risks that we run in by supporting projects that are changing, you know, doing things that they're going to have a negative impact on environment or socially, um, knowing what was there, what is now here, and where are we going to go if we continue what we're doing. Or are we correcting Education became an important tool to preserve. The more, more informed consumer that we have, uh, obviously the better producers we're going to be. If you demand from me as a producer, if I put my hat off producer and if I want your attention and your business, I have to react to what you are expecting from me. And you know the bartending um, community, the agave enthusiasts have a huge, huge impact on decisions of producers. Just an example, the largest tequila producer, they produce this iconic tequila uh, that dominate the market for decades. Just report 75% of the value of their stock. They are losing presence on the market. The big brands by celebrities, they are struggling now. But small family owned tequila companies, they still fine. What tells me it's like the consumer is supporting more good things, well done, well produced things than industrial mass nonsense production products. And um, that will make big brands to start to pay attention to good practices. I've been having calls from big brands to ask for consulting, you know, job like they want me to get involved with their brands and how they, how we can make it more attractive for the new consumer that is informed. And I say, you know it's going to be a very costly but a long term project.

Speaker C: I have one follow up question and sorry to keep you here any longer but I walk into the liquor store and I feel pretty informed about tequila. But I think the average consumer including me doesn't know the difference between one of these small family producers. And it feels like a lot of the smaller, the big tequila companies have branded or sub branded to something that looks like it could be a small family owned tequila and you just don't really know what's what. And I want to support the small families.

Speaker A: And uh, David's holding up his phone to Simon.

Speaker B: Yes, I mean we are a uh, click away from research and to be more savvy and to be more demanding. I mean we live in the era of information. I mean one of the things that we are now capable to do is to have immediate access to information. The other thing that I, you uh, know this is probably a cheap chat, but I have to do it is read more about it. I mean we published this book um, a couple years ago. It's loaded with information. It's loaded with the topics that we have in this conversation. Get yourself informed. It is plenty of information out there. It's papers that talk about these topics that we've been going through the entire hour. There is a lot of research that is available right now which I strongly recommend if you love agave spirits. Learn about agave spirits. Um, it's very easy to be distracted in today's world of marketing. I mean marketing, strategics, marketing, uh, budgets are where the big brands spend most of their resources. And um, you can tell, I mean it's ah, the constant bombarding with misinformation or information that is aim only and things that are more appealing, more sexy. It doesn't take us to a better future for agave spirits and such an agricult product.

Speaker A: Well, David, thank you so much. Um, we're gonna go let you get people drunk and I might just follow suit. It'll be in a few hours but I definitely need some tequila after this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing the knowledge man. And just like you're such an incredible resource and such a voice for like agave as a whole. So we really appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thank you for what you do. I mean I really, and I really mean that more of these sessions and these conversations are needed. And uh, thank you for doing it. Thank you for uh, getting your attention into this beautiful category and uh, keep doing the good job. Spread the word. Yes, we will.

Speaker C: Thank you David.

Speaker A: Thank you David. Have a good rest of the evening. Okay?

Speaker B: You too guys. Thank you.

Speaker A: Well, that's it for this edition of Crafted. And I would like to say thanks to David for the conversation and more importantly for all of his hard work in educating consumers, advocating for producers and fighting against the collapse of an industry which is near and dear to my heart. I would also like to say thanks to Simon Stewart for being my lovely co host on this episode. Thanks to the ever charming Justin Bob for producing this episode and of course thanks to all of you for listening. If you're enjoying these crafted conversations, please leave us a rating of a review wherever you get your podcasts that will help us keep this entire thing going and growing. Also, if you haven't yet, follow the link in the show notes of this episode to subscribe to our weekly newsletter and enter our free giveaways. Each week we give away some incredible gear, so it's well worth a couple of minutes. Alright everybody, thanks so much and I hope you have a great rest of the week. We will talk about to you again real soon.