Ep 210, Say It Clearly: Discrimination and Harassment Will Not Be Tolerated

Welcome to Conflict Managed. I'm your host, Merry Brown. This week on Conflict Managed, we welcome Derek Smith. Derek is a nationally recognized employment attorney and founder of the Derek Smith Law Group with nearly 30 years of experience fighting for victims of workplace sexual harassment and discrimination.

Since 1995, Derrick and his firm have secured over $400 million in compensation for clients across offices in New York, Philadelphia, New Jersey, California, and Florida. He holds the record for the largest emotional distress jury verdict ever upheld on appeal in an employment discrimination case in the United States. Known for his compassionate yet tenacious approach, Derrick has represented everyone from blue-collar workers to world-famous celebrities, making him one of the most formidable voices in workplace justice today.

Good morning, Derek, and welcome to Conflict Managed. Good morning, Mary. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Oh, I know we're going to have a wonderful conversation today and talk about all things, healthy work environment, and in particular, when things go wrong, and sometimes really wrong, what are some steps that people can take in order to deal with what has happened.

But before we get to all of that, Derek, I want to know about the first job you ever had as a young person. Oh, that's a great question. I always tell people, I don't think I've ever had a job that I didn't get fired from. I, one of the reasons why I have my own law firm and offices and is because I make a terrible employee.

I mean, the worst employee ever. I, I worked at the gap. I got fired for talking to my friends when they would come in. I, I then got a job at banana Republic, same company.

I don't why they hired me if they fired me from from the gap i i grandfather rag factory it was actually that you can't fire your grandson so that's a place where i worked and didn't get fired but that was that was a hell of an experience i was in a full-fledged factory where they would cut rags box them, sort them, ship them. And, you know, all day long, I'm sitting there with like the glue from the tape all over my hands and everything. So, I mean, that was a great experience.

But my favorite job as a kid, as a young person, definitely has to be street corner cuisine, where we would take hot dog carts to weddings, graduation parties, bar mitzvahs, car dealerships, and give out hot dogs. You know, we were hired by the host. And that was so much fun. I got to meet new people every time.

And it was very autonomous. So all of this certainly gave me an idea of what it's like to be an employee in the workplace. It sounds like there's this common theme that you are gregarious. You like being with people and you like change.

And it sounds like that's a lot of what you get to do in the business that you're in right now. 100%. Every client is new. Every case is new.

And yes. And, you know, in employment, there's the stress of doing your job. And then there's the stress of dealing with your boss and then there's a stress very often of dealing with the customer or client so you've got all of these levels of stress so when you could avoid one of them it's very nice such as my boss I don't have a boss I can avoid that I still have the stress of dealing with the job sometimes clients are can be a little boisterous but It's okay. I mean, they're very worried.

This is a big deal in their life, and I'm happy to help them cope with what they're going through. So you have these experiences as a young person, and you decide to pursue law. First of all, what did you major in undergraduate education, and why did you decide to go to be a lawyer? Okay.

I can't consider myself doing anything else other than being a lawyer. I think I was a lawyer when my mom gave birth. It's just, I love it. I love the talking.

I find it interesting. I actually get a weird high when I'm doing research and I find the case that's going to crack it. Or I'm cross-examining a witness and I have a Perry Mason moment. So I always wanted to be a lawyer.

My major was political science and French. I just fell in love with going to France and the language and everything. And I originally wanted to put them together and be an international lawyer. But then I realized after I looked into it, being an international lawyer is not so much fun.

It doesn't have what you were just talking about, the change, dealing with different people and excitement and everything. It's more contracts and regulations and such. Whereas this, you really can help people and you throw in discrimination and unfair treatment and sexual harassment, sexual assault. And it's like, you know, it evokes a whole other desire to help people and to punish those who are doing it.

So when you went to law school, did you know you wanted to do employment law or did that come about through a process? You know, you go to law school and you're kind of like a piece of meat thrown to the wolves, you have no idea what's going on. And, but by my third year of law school, I knew I wanted to do litigation. I knew it was fun.

I knew it was interesting. And right after I got my license to practice law, the very day I opened up my own practice. It didn't work for anyone else. I learned everything on my own.

And in the office space where I was, somebody gave me a potential case and said, hey, Derek, I got this case. I don't know if you're interested in it. A woman who was working at a big music company was being hit on by her boss and he would like stare at her stare at her breasts and make come ons and we'd like to go for drinks or something and then one day he gave her a fortune cookie and he said open it god open it and she opened it And inside it said, happiness is when you suck a prick.

And that on top of everything else with him hitting on her and whatnot. And I said, absolutely, I'll take this case. And so this was 30 years ago. I went to the Strand bookstore in New York where it still exists.

And, you know, they advertise miles and miles of books. And this was my internet. And I went to the section on sexual harassment law And I bought every book, And then I read it and studied it and took notes like I was studying for a bar exam, which, by the way, people don't do. Lawyers, you know what they do?

They study for the bar exam. They memorize everything. And then when they become actual lawyers, they don't memorize and learn and study and master what they're doing like they did for the bar exam. It always boggled my mind.

So I did the same for that and it worked. And I had a great result on that case. And I also realized that even this big defense firm and these big shot lawyers didn't know the law as well as they should have. So I said, you know what?

I can help people. I feel really good about what I did. I said, this is perfect. And I never looked back.

What a wonderful story. How very interesting that right out of law school, I don't know if I've ever heard somebody, obviously other people have done it, but that you knew that you wanted to work for yourself. That you knew that you wanted to start this and then you had the tenacity to go about it and to be prepared. I mean, gosh, you sound like you were very prepared and it paid off.

Yes, I guess it could be that either that I'm foolhardy, brave, or rightfully confident. I just don't know, but it worked out. But I think to myself, there's nothing we can't do. And I'm not saying me, I'm saying we.

There's nothing we can't do. If we want to do something, we can do it. And you just put your mind to it and action. and every single day, make a list.

These are the things I would like to accomplish today. And be kind to yourself, you know, little things and do it. And then that's how eventually you grow little by little and become a master in what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely.

It's right, those showing up and doing it over and over and always think about forward progress. And so I write and so sometimes it's just like, okay, I opened up my document, I used it a little bit, but I showed up. And the next day, I might do a lot. But if I think I've got to have this whole beautiful plan together before I start, then you're right.

How do you get success? It is in the everyday. You're not going to want to do it. You're going to be discouraged.

That's right. So I was thinking about you and what you do, and you've been doing it for so long, and you have a thriving practice, and you deal with, you know, what's wrong in workplaces and injustice that happens. So how is it or how has your practice informed being an employer? So you deal with all these difficulties that people face in their own employment.

But as somebody who runs their own law firm, and I'm assuming you have employees, is that correct? Oh, lots. Yes. Yes.

So how does that inform what you see people doing that are wrong in justice in the workplace? how do you then set up your own practice to be a great employer? So, like I said, I did not like working for anyone else. I didn't like having the boss.

I spoke before of that multi-level sandwich where you're under the stress all over. And because I recognize that, I really do try to have a nice environment with my people. I don't ever yell. And if I do, I apologize.

And I think to myself as a boss, teach, don't criticize, teach. And anytime people get something wrong, and they're always going to get something wrong, they're always going to, but they're learning. This is part of the process. And teach them how to do it.

Say, let me help you here. Here's what I would do, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You know, granted, this is not a free reign either to then let them just continue to do it wrong. I mean, look, we've had this talk many times.

You're not getting it. I think you should go find another job somewhere else. But with respect to being an employer, yes, I recognize that you have to be fair. You can't discriminate.

I always try to hire anyone that is, they could be have a disability they could be minorities whatever but by the way i i people need to realize, Treating one person over another person because they have a disability, because they're a migrant, that's also discrimination. But I will say I do keep an extremely open mind to bring in as many people as I can who perhaps were discriminated against in other jobs or were sexually harassed in other jobs. And I look at that as, well, you know what?

You're going to be safe here. You don't have to worry about that. So I understand the plight of an employee going through all of this, but I certainly also understand the plight of an employer who has to deal with problems of human resources, of even cases that are brought that are not genuine. And I'm glad that I have that because it does allow me to see both sides and do a better job for my clients, What a lovely answer, because I do think that, you know, we can learn through experiences if we want to learn, right?

So we have to be open to what's out there. And it's so wonderful if we can learn a lesson that we don't have to personally go through, but we see somebody else's misstep and say, okay, well, I'm not going to do that. Or I didn't even know that might be a problem, but I see somebody else and what happened here. So how can I make sure that this is a safe place, that this is a great place to work?

And I also love what you said about teaching. because if you're invested in not blaming but teaching and you give people opportunities and you try to figure out what is this gap in performance or behavior, the sooner you're going to see if that employee is not able to, for whatever reason at this time, fill that gap. And the sooner you can part ways, the better everybody's left, right? The organization's left more intact, the individual's left more intact.

But you see that if you have the mindset that I'm paying attention and that word teaching, I think, is just so much in there. That is a, I'm invested, I'm paying attention, and then I'm going to see if it's not working, and then we're going to act. Absolutely. 100%.

One of my favorite sayings that I say to my employees, they've heard me say this a million times. Smart people learn from their own mistakes. Geniuses learn from other people's mistakes. But it's so hard.

It's so hard. Very often, you just have to make those mistakes yourself to finally, which is a shame. But by going to what you were saying, it's important to be open to receive that information. Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, we want human workplaces and human workplaces. The first thing that you said is, I don't yell, but if I do, I apologize, right? So we can have what our standards are and what happens when we don't act according to our own values. Well, we're human.

Sometimes we get frustrating. Some things, you know, there's a whole storm that happens and I snap or I do something that I regret and then I make amends and then I go on, right? That's to model that, that we are humans working with humans and you're working in a very high stakes. You're seeing people when terrible things have happened to them or under real duress.

And so it's much different than working in an ice cream shop. Well, there's a pressure of the person, you know, the line out the door, of course, but it is different kinds of stakes and different things going on. And so when people make mistakes, being able to make mistakes in a way where there's a path forward instead of blame, shame, and not admitting them, which is terrible. No, I agree.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that when you're a boss, you forget that when you say things, it has a different impact than if you're a colleague, a coworker, a friend. And I remember I asked an attorney who worked for me, did you file a certain document or did you send it out? And she said, yes. And I said, liar.

And I said it like that, like, like I'm kidding. Right. And. The next day, she came into my office with tears in her eyes and said, I am not a liar.

I said, oh, God, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean you're a liar. Okay, okay, I'm not going to do that anymore. So it's important for supervisors, for bosses to remember things that they say are often amplified.

Oh, gosh, that's such a good point. And also humor, right? Because you were saying this. Somebody else might have thought that was funny I know But humor, as we know, is very specific And it can be obviously tied to role And who's saying it And what my experience is And being just taken off guard Like, oh my gosh, is something wrong?

Is this passive-aggressive? Right, so humor It's good to have humor in a work environment We don't want to be, you know, automatons and droll At the same time, you know, being cognizant of what's being said Who's listening, all of that Certainly. So, when you think about what happens in work environments, I know you deal in all different kinds of issues. One is, you know, emotional distress.

Can you tell us about the kinds of things that you see that your clients bring to you. That have happened in work environments and maybe like, what happened that it, what happens in a work environment that breaks down that these terrible things happen to people. Well, it's a great question. When you have humanity, you're always going to have problems.

You know, medicine and discrimination law are two fields where we're trying to eliminate the need for us. We're trying to eliminate our position. I want to punish people so that they don't do it again. But unfortunately, it's always going to happen, especially if there's alcohol.

And it's true. You know, I get a flood of calls right after the Christmas parties and, you know, people getting drunk and saying and doing stupid things. And other than that, it could also be the desire for power. I mean, you've heard it before that sexual harassment is about power.

It's also about not knowing your limits or boundaries. Just being an ass. And there will always be these qualities, these things in people. And there will always be sexual desire.

You know, this is the reason why we exist in evolution and why we're here in the first place. So you take people, you put them in an environment where they're probably spending more time than they are at home. There's going to be sexual attraction. And I'm not saying that that's wrong.

I mean, I've had employees who have gotten married in my office. I have people who have had children. And I think it's wonderful. I think it's amazing because, you know, you need, but there's always going to be conflict because.

Relationships, sexual attraction is not always mutual. And the worst is when it happens with a superior and a subordinate, because then this desire for sex comes along with it. Ooh, I can put my thumb on this pressure point and perhaps make it even make it happen, which is the worst thing anyone could ever do in the workplace, but it happens all the time. So that's an example of that.

Example of discrimination has to do with people come into work with their preconceived biases, where they are discriminatory, where they're racist. And by law, if they are, that must be eliminated the second they walk in the door, the second they show up at the construction site, whatever it is. But unfortunately, it doesn't. And it continues.

And so these things are what lead to these toxic environments that you were just mentioning. So given this, that human nature, right, so we're going to have issues, we're going to have failures for a variety of reasons of people acting in a way that they ought not act, immorally, illegally. What systems, because you've been in this game for a long time, what kind of systems, safeguards, do you see that companies put up maybe after they've gone through a lawsuit? It's better to not go through a lawsuit and not have people damaged.

Have you seen any structures that help to minimize or to make it so that these situations aren't happening? Because a lot of times it's behind closed doors. We don't see it until somebody speaks up. So are there any best practices that you've run across?

Yes. People don't have conversations about this. They don't. Here's what happens.

You show up at a job. You sign an acknowledgement that you have read the employee handbook. You've read their policy on anti-discrimination and anti-sexual harassment. Most of the time they haven't.

They just sign the acknowledgement. Maybe even you're required to do a video where they ask you questions and you click on it and click, click, click. By the way, the city of New York has a free one for all employers. And it can be used by anyone anywhere in the United States.

So I highly recommend that. But what I'm getting at is once a year, have a meeting with everyone. And you say, people, this is a place of employment. We do not recognize any differences in race, religion, gender, disability.

If you're disabled, you will be given a reasonable accommodation, sexual orientation, national origin, age. And here, if there is any discrimination based on that, if you're doing that, you will be fired. Let me say that again. If you are doing this, you will be fired.

Does everyone understand what I'm saying? Do I even have to bring up examples of what I'm talking about? How about a comment? How about just kidding around?

You know, maybe if you're in the locker room and you're in high school and you're making a comment, that's one thing. But it doesn't happen here. It's not allowed here. And it's illegal here.

And I just want everyone to know. And I'll talk about relationships. And there's something called a relationship agreement. And if anyone's having a relationship and I'm not one to judge, and even if it happens to be extramarital, because that happens and people don't come forward, I say, make sure, feel free to come to me and we will have you sign what's known as a relationship agreement so that neither party feels like they're being charged.

Pressured one way or another in a quid pro quo sexual harassment, or we can move people so they're not reporting to that person, et cetera, et cetera. So yes, the employee handbook, yes, the videos where you have to participate in it, but most importantly, real conversations with people once a year explaining how important it is not to discriminate, not to sexually harass goes without saying, but sometimes people need to be shoved in their face and, you know, nose rubbed in it.

I love that, that it goes without saying. And yet when you said, if you do these things, you will be fired. That is such strong language. And I love it because it can bring the reality.

So, oh, okay, this is serious. I can't take this for granted. If I think I'm doing locker room humor. That's not going on here.

Or if I see something or if this is happening to me, oh, this is what the company expects. So this is not okay. And having that kind of maybe permission, that kind of backing, like, oh, I'm experiencing this and I've just heard my boss say, this is 100% not okay. Maybe I can reach out to HR or if they're in ombuds or if there's somebody or my boss or somebody can help me because I've heard from in most very strong, language not tiptoeing around it like okay everybody let's be adults and professionals so we know we don't want to harm people but that's really wonderful I think if people were to do that so and I think it's effective why do you think people don't do that have those conversations.

I have no idea. I think they absolutely 100% laziness. Oh, it's so easy. Oh, they signed this document.

I've done my work. You know, they don't go that extra step of doing that. And also, I think about this law every day, all day long. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily come to the person who does not.

So it is a good idea for them to do that. And to, you were mentioning before, complaint procedures. Of course. The biggest mistake I see that employers make is when someone comes to them to complain, that person gets poo-pooed.

Oh, they're just kidding. He didn't mean it. Or they'll circle the wagons and they'll hire, quote unquote, an independent law firm, organization, agency to come in and investigate. And that investigation always finds that the complaints are unfounded.

You know, my advice to employers, rather than focusing so much on circling the wagons and building a defense and how about address what this person is saying and see if you can help them. Remember, the goal is for an employer to have happy people who are productive, who make you money. And when you listen to them and you help them, you're going to get that and everyone wins. I love that.

I love that so much because what keeps people silent is this fear of retribution, this fear of, you know, we say, oh, we're not going to, you know, there will be no, you know, blowback, you know, this is not going to happen. But if I've seen it happen or I've seen other people minimize or I've seen people like, oh, that's not what's really happening and being gaslit, then I'm less likely to speak up. I'm more likely to think, well, they're going to perceive me as the problem because I said something about, especially if it's a star person, somebody who brings them a lot of money or notoriety, and then I'm the problem because I'm the one speaking up.

And so that, of course, keeps people less likely to speak up. And then these problems can grow. And then eventually that person's had it enough and then might trigger a very public, expensive lawsuit, which could have been avoided if. And also, Derek, as you said, sometimes people bring issues that they might be seeing something that isn't there.

But if that person, if I feel like something has happened... Let's look into it. Maybe I don't understand. Maybe I'm new to this area of the country or this business, and I think this person is being, I don't know, discriminatory in some sense.

But maybe I am seeing something that isn't there because of my own past, and so I can have a conversation and we can figure out a way forward so I can actually see what's happening. Right. Like that woman who I jokingly called her a liar. if she then went to HR and said, look, I think Derek was calling me a liar because I'm a woman or because something else.

I would, you know, the right thing to do there is to have a meeting and say, are you okay if we have a meeting? I promise you Derek is not going to be rude. He's not going to say, but let's have a meeting. Let's get to the bottom of this because I want you to be comfortable and I don't want you to have anything said that, you know, is off-putting at work or offensive.

And then I imagine during that conversation, she would say, okay, it's just your sense of humor. I get it. And I would say, okay, I'm not going to joke like that anymore. And then it ends.

Isn't that wonderful? It just ends right there versus the typical scenario. Filing a written complaint to HR, which then gets fully investigated. No, this is not, you know, discrimination because you're a woman.

Next thing you know, the employer does the incredibly stupid thing of then nitpicking all of the person's work, developing a paper trail, and then fires them. Come on. It doesn't have to be that way. If people would be much more open to keeping their eyes on the big picture, what do we have to do to bring harmony back to this relationship?

That's all. And I think it's a really good question to ask as both the employer and the employee of what needed to happen with your relationship with that colleague that she felt like she could actually say that to you the next day, right? So I think conflict management happens way before there's a conflict, right? We build these relationships.

I get to know somebody. And if there's a transgression or somebody rolled their eyes at me at a meeting or that I feel like, even though it might be really difficult, that I can actually have that conversation rather than do nothing and then let that fester. And now I'm seeing things that may or not there because now it's building this narrative. And then maybe, like you said, I go to HR.

So what needs to happen? I think conflict management starts way before there's an issue. So that if we're eyes on the prize, healthy work environment, we're all having a good time where we're flourishing and we are making money, we're doing our business, what needs to happen? And I'm not talking ping pong tables and, you know, but real relationships like that are really good, strong collegial relationships that can bear, you know, can be resilient because we are going to disappoint each other and we are going to make missteps.

That's going to happen. So how do we build those relationships so that they don't break at the first, you called me a liar? That's a very good point. I love that you raised that.

I like that she had the courage to come to me and say, Derek, I'm not a liar. And she had tears in her eyes. So she was obviously very upset and it was very hard for her. And she didn't have to go to me.

She could have gone to my HR director. That is courageous, and I commend her, and I commend anyone else who does, in fact, go to the source and say, let's talk about what happened the other day because it bothered me. That's wonderful. But the reaction is more important, equally or even more important than what just was said.

You need to be very receptive. You need to appreciate this person for coming in. And you need to put your ego in check. You know, how dare you come into my office and tell me that I was wrong for calling you a lie?

You know, egos are huge. And like we were just saying, I would love to put an end to my profession. Egos, that's another reason why it will always exist. because people don't understand that it's so important to focus on the issue rather than themselves.

So I agree that conflict resolution management happens way before the fight. It's getting into that frame of mind that we can communicate, we can talk, and I'm not scared. Okay, be scared. But do it anyway and be proud of yourself for doing so.

That's right. Yeah. The feeling that you get from being able to check that ego. And I think that's a really good point because when somebody comes to us, what are they expecting?

If they're expecting you to go high and escalate, they're probably not going to come to you. They're going to do something else. But when somebody comes to us, how are we going to respond to that? Are we going to be able to listen?

It's really hard when we feel misunderstood. When we feel like somebody's not being generous to us or somebody is blaming us, it's really hard to just sit and listen for what the real issue is. And if I have caused somebody harm, because most of us do not have that intention. I mean, you deal with outliers, but most of us don't have that intention.

And yet we do it anyway. And that can be really hard to reconcile because it wasn't my intent. And yet that was the impact. And this person is telling me this.

And so there's a lot that goes on with the person who is being told that their behavior had a negative impact on them. Yes. And let's say they are those outliers where it's a negative response. The person going to them, the employee, now can say to themselves, okay, my conscience is clear.

I tried that approach. It didn't work. That's it. Now I'm escalating.

Now I'm going to HR. Now I'm filing an EEOC charge. Now I'm hiring a lawyer. Whatever it is.

But at least they tried, and they tried to resolve that so that they could have a nice, happy work environment. So good for them. And even if it doesn't work out, it served a valuable purpose, I think. Yeah, I think absolutely.

If it doesn't work, it did work because you stood up for yourself. You moved the process forward. And if we think about what we want in work, we want a healthy work environment. We want good collegial relationships.

Well, what happens if I have a problem with you, but I go to your boss? How am I going to feel if you didn't come talk to me, right? So now we're compounding the problem because you went to my boss about my behavior instead of coming to me. And I think, well, why would you try to get me in trouble?

Why wouldn't you come talk to me? And it makes that mending of that relationship, the harm that's caused, it makes it even harder because what we want to do is deal with what happens and move forward. So that means the sooner we do it, the less of the stuff that we have to unpack and the harm and the hurt that we have to deal with in order to move forward. Absolutely.

I agree. It's a wonderful process. It's hard. But bite the bullet.

Go in there. Be courageous. And actually, that's something that you could apply all throughout your life and all of your relationships. Absolutely.

How have you developed when it comes to conflict and dealing with conflict at work? Have you always been able to, has it been easy for you to deal with conflict when it comes to your colleagues? Or is it something that you've grown and developed? 99% of the time, it's easy.

You deal with it. You know, not too long ago, I got certified as a mediator by Harvard Law School and Cornell University. And, you know, they teach you all of these techniques. And I find myself applying those techniques in dealing with people and letting people being heard.

And, you know, you've got different parts of the brain that, you know, when they're all fired up, it's all amygdala. And they're so angry and emotional and everything. And there are techniques to get people out of that and into a more rational, logical frame of mind rather than all emotion. So has it been easy?

Not always. And like I said, I was an employer since day one. And nobody taught me. And you learn and you make mistakes.

And eventually, there are techniques that instinctively you realize work. Listening to people. Let them talk. and you don't, I've seen attorneys do this.

I've seen bosses do this. They cut people off and they know best. Let people talk. Tell me more about that.

Is there anything else? Is there anything else? And you wait until they're done. Wouldn't you love it if doctors did that?

So you know dealing with with conflict is is also letting people know that you're always available and it's just saying my door is always open doesn't work okay wonderful that's what you said now show it, When was the last time you took anybody in your office out for a coffee? When was the last time you took them out for lunch? When was the last time you remembered their kids' names and you spoke about them and said, hey, what's going on with Mary and Peter? You show an involvement.

Don't just be this figurehead. That's my advice. it can't always be that way because as a boss you're stressed you've got all those levels that i was just mentioning about but then you have the stress of dealing with all of the employees so i i get it but to the extent that you can make yourself available make yourself involved, don't just be this person that people are scared to come to. I love that.

And sometimes we have this all or nothing thinking, oh, if I do coffee for one, it's coffee for all. If it's kids' names for one, it's kids' and pets' names for all. And it doesn't have to be that way, right? We can do the best that we can, but it's this involvement, thinking.

And if I have that person on my mind and I'm thinking about our goal, and part of the goal is a healthy work environment, what do people need to be seen for engagement, for belonging? And the magic of listening which isn't as you said just simply not cutting them off but those magical questions of anything else tell me more you know what else is there so that people can, obviously a lot of times we know what they come with is not really what's going on right so getting underneath what's really going on because as a boss if you're trying to solve for what you think is the problem then the problem is not being solved and the persons are being heard which is another problem that's not being solved.

So really giving that space is so wonderful to live, to be in a human work environment, as you said, where we spend most of our time. And so in that space where if we need to be heard, and many times we don't, we're just doing our jobs, but sometimes we do need that. So being available. Absolutely.

It helps. Absolutely. So when you think about. The work that you do.

When does somebody need a lawyer? So what can they handle on their own when it comes to workplace problems? When do they need somebody externally to help them? So no one has to put up with discrimination, sexual harassment, sexual assault.

No one. No one. I say immediately, call a good lawyer. Speak to someone who's experienced.

Speak to someone who hopefully is going to advise you on what's best for you, not because they want the case. And do that by doing your own research, reading reviews, watching videos of the person speak to they, do they speak to you? My, my wife is a psychologist and you know, at one point she was on psychology today and they have these videos. And if you want to a psychologist, you get to like hear the person speak and you say, does this person seem like somebody I could relate to?

I can get a long rip. So you'll know if it's uncomfortable, if it's difficult, if you're getting these pangs of, I don't want to go to work today because of it, you got to call a lawyer. Let at least get them to, everyone's giving free consultations. At least know what your rights are.

And check this out. Don't go on ChatGPT and Claude or any other AI and look stuff up. Two reasons. One, that's discoverable.

So if your case moves forward, what you looked up and the answer can be used against you. You don't want that. Let your lawyer use that in conjunction with Lexus and Westlaw and their decades, hopefully, of experience in being able to advise you. AI is like a really smart child But they're just a child This is the second reason So don't listen to what they're saying as advice Because it's often wrong, Should it be used?

I tell all of my attorneys, It's malpractice not to use AI. It's bigger malpractice not to thoroughly check it. You'll always find something. So if you find yourself, there's a concept in law called constructive discharge.

And what it says is no reasonable person in the employee's shoes should be expected to continue working under those working conditions. And if you find yourself in it, that's a no-brainer. My God. Psychologically, you know, psychologist notes are filled with what happened at work, what this person said, what that person said, what this person did.

So psychologically, stop beating yourself up. Take a look on any of the employer websites, whether it be Monster or ZipRecruiter or LinkedIn or whatever it is. There are thousands of jobs and you get so caught up in your little world that you think this is the world. This is everything.

And if you leave, oh, everyone's going to know I'm going to be blackballed. I'm going to be this. Stop. This is just this little environment.

You can always get out. And most of the cases that I handle get resolved confidentially. Pre-litigation, pre-suit. And even if you have to go into litigation, if it's a sexual assault type of a case, you can proceed anonymously as a John or Jane Doe.

So by all means, when is the point where you should reach out? When you're uncomfortable. when your emotional health is taking a toll, and call a lawyer for no reason other than to, hear what your rights are, and see what you want to do, and see if it makes sense. That's all.

That's such a great answer, because sometimes conflict has this way of shutting us down, right? We don't have this broad view. It's just very confusing, and we don't know what to do. And then we catastrophize, and we tell ourselves these kinds of stories.

But to have somebody from the outside help us to understand, like if I think I'm in a hostile work environment, Well, somebody who actually knows what the law is can say, okay, I can understand this is difficult, but in this state or this environment doesn't rise to here. Okay, then if I know that, then I can think about, do I still want to be here? Or, but I know that maybe this is not, at this time, a case that I have. But, you know, to get that outside perspective is really strong.

I also wanted to put just a pin on this about having a conversation. Nobody is owed a conversation, certainly if a crime has been committed against you, right? If somebody is sexually harassing you, you don't have to go on them and then say, you know, when you gave me this fortune cookie, I, you know. Yes.

Yes. Right. I didn't appreciate when you grabbed my, no, no, no. Right.

You've got, at that point, escalate lawyers, law enforcement, you know, there's many steps, of course, of course. Oh, my God, the thought of that makes me sad that a person now feels that they have to go to the person who just sexually assaulted them and talked to them. No. Absolutely not.

By all means, lawyer up immediately. Right. And that's why a lawyer can help you because it can be really confusing. Like, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do here.

Well, talk to somebody who this is their profession, right? This is and they know the law and in particular an employment lawyer who this is their bread and butter to help you kind of figure out the lay of the land. Because I think with conflict management, we want to give people as many options as possible so that they really can understand what's happening to them. Is this actually illegal behavior?

Unfortunately, there are lots of bad practices and bad players at work that the environment does not quite raise to. It's bad business practice. People are losing money. They're mistreating people, but it happens to not be illegal.

But that's good to know, because then I can say, okay, well, what am I going to do? Is this a system I want to try to work within, or am I just out and I can go look on some other sites to find a different environment? And to follow up on that and give people a quick crash course, I get calls all the time. I've been subject to a hostile work environment.

And often they just mean my boss is yelling at me, my boss is a jerk. And like you said, bad for business. But not necessarily illegal. Hostile work environment in a legal sense only means hostile when it's because of one of the protected classes, race, religion, gender, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, citizenship, age, only because of one of those reasons, such as racial slurs or comments or conduct of a sexual nature.

And a lot of states, it has to be more than just a one-off comment. It has to be something that's happened a few times, or it can be one time, but it has to be something that's pretty severe, such as grabbing of buttocks or breasts or something like that. New York and California, however, have special laws where any level is enough. And as long as it's discriminatory, or any level of sexual harassment, that is enough.

So people do need to understand what is a hostile work environment in their state and what they can do something about. But just being screamed at and yelled at, that sounds like a job for HR to deal with. Or if you feel appropriate, you go to the person and say, look, I don't like it when you called me a liar. So, Derek, I can't believe this time has gotten away from us.

I want to end with this question. When you look into the future of work, what do you think needs to happen so that not only will all people be treated with dignity and respect, but that they will be encouraged to thrive and flourish? That is a major question. And wouldn't that be wonderful if people could thrive and flourish more?

And it's all about communication. And like I said in the beginning, Boundaries Knowing your boundaries Knowing this is a place of work Knowing that while humor is good While friendly relationships are wonderful We all have a duty to be professional And recognize that And make sure that we all are helping each other Because guess what? When you help somebody else They're going to help you Other people are going to see that. So rather than this rat race of everyone competing and trying to get, maybe there's a way that we can all deal with each other, that we all excel, that we all move.

And guess what? When people see that you're a team player and you're trying to help other people, that will propel you much more than if you're stepping on their heads. So that's what I say. I love it.

Well, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. and for this time. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Take care. Bye-bye. Derek, thank you for being on Conflict Managed. I really enjoyed our conversation, and I'm so thankful that there are people like you who are helping people who find themselves in really bad circumstances at work.

And if you don't, as an employer, want to find yourself in a lawsuit, there's quite a lot of things that you can do to really think about what is the environment at work? What are my workers experiencing? what are the non-negotiables that every single worker can expect and how am i articulating that and how often do we talk about it how often do we have dialogue and set expectations what are people supposed to do if they are feeling discriminated against or they do feel like they're in a hostile work environment how can we make it so that doesn't happen because that is bad for business but more importantly we have a duty to treat each other with dignity and respect because we're part of the human community.

So Derek, thank you so much for your work. And dear listener, if you find yourself in a situation where you feel uncomfortable at work, I encourage you to find that help so that you can move forward. Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services and hosted by me, Merry Brown. You can find us online at 3pconflictrestoration.

com. Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday. And as Derek talked about this idea of being professional, I do have a book called How to Be Unprofessional at Work, tips to ensure failure.

And it looks at 80 tips of what not to do and starts a conversation about what to do instead. If we need to be professional, we should have conversations about what does that actually look like here in this organization to have a healthy work environment. Our music is courtesy of Doug Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected.

Let's deal with it. Until next time, take care. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh Put down the sun.