Kevin Crowe, Five Years of Western Growth - A Wrap Up Conversation

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello and a warm collisions YYC welcome. A very celebratory and, um, bittersweet as this is our last episode and there's no one better to have on the show than the catalyst, the man who put me up to it, Mr. Kevin Crow. Hey, buddy, how are you?

Speaker A: I'm doing awesome. Thank you so much for having me. What an incredible moment. What an incredible conversation we're about to happen.

Speaker B: Oh, man. Little, uh, did I know 533 episodes ago when you said, tyler, you know what this city needs? A podcast. And the way I remember it, I'm going to say it. You can correct it, Tyler. I'm running into people that are solving problems on one side of the street and then I go across the other side of the street and those people, those different people are wrestling with similar problems, but no one's talking. We need to do a podcast and you need to host it. And that was at the end of that, uh, was kind of mid-2019 and that was 533 episodes ago. So is that how you remember it? Because that's certainly how my brain is, has concocted this story.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I remember kind of that moment, you know, a lot of anxiety around this beautiful city, this beautiful province, and kind of where we were and you know, working in tech here and understanding, you know, really that we need to transform the city and, you know, having conversations about what that meant getting more diversified in our economics. Right. Not just being oil and gas and trying to find someone that would help us kind of correlate and bring everybody together and have those conversations because they were happening in such isolated ways and, you know, the universe brought us together and, uh, you know, twisted your arm and man, I am so glad you have done this. Um, what an incredible gift for us in the city. Uh, I know this has taken a lot of time and a lot of resources. Um, but I can't say thank you enough on behalf of everybody that's been on this podcast. Everything you've done to put this conversation in the city, what a different spot we are. Uh, and, uh, 530 something episodes later, so a huge thank you for accepting that arm twisting and going after it.

Speaker B: I, I thank you. You are welco. I got, I had no idea what I was going to get. This is the more you give, the more you get scenario for me. And I've joked many, many times, I would, I would do it if nobody listened because of the depths and the quality of the conversation. But from a, from a justifying your time and Energy perspective. It was really cool that people did and you know, let's, let's think about 20, 2018, 2019. We were what, four years into an energy sector downturn.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The downtown was gutted and still has some challenges there, which we'll talk about. But, you know, 70,000, like the, the numbers of job losses in the energy sector in that period of time. And that was the first time of, since I've lived in Alberta when you couldn't just hold your breath and the, and the energy blip would go away. It didn't. Nobody, I don't know anyone can hold their breath for six, six months, let alone four years, five years. And you know, I want to give credit to a lot of people that I met that were like, Tyler, the Texas. The tech ecosystem was here. But I like what you said. The concentric circles weren't considered. They didn't overlap.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It was a circle over here, a circle over there. The overlap in those circles over the last five years I think has really been a catalyst for, for people getting a lot more intimate with each other and not just holding our breath for the energy sector to come back.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. You know, it's interesting. Uh, you know, work in tech. I work at Longview, and you know, one of the things for us, even if I think of 2019, was just getting tech talent to come to the city. Right. You know, recruiting and getting people to move here and how it just wasn't on their radar. And it was a really tough kind of, I guess, recruitment. Um, now, right. There is tech momentum here. There is people like it is on their radar. And we, you know, even do recruiting internationally. And so I'm not saying, you know, we. It's never an arrival. There's still work to be done. There's still lots of work to be done for the city and the province. But what a different spot we're in, um, how much easier recruiting is for us, how much more people think about Calgary and the tech scene that's happening here and the tech that's happening. So, you know, definitely not at the finish line, but, man, what a different spot we are.

Speaker B: Well, I think there was, you know, I think Jeff Gibson. Jim, uh, Gibson actually not Jeff. Jim Gibson on the first episode. Sid. You know, Tyler, we're kind of 10 years late to a 20 year plan. And I don't know. And I appreciate it. It's a great. I'm a marketer. I love a good, catchy little catchphrase. And I would say we're still late to our 20 year plan. But I wouldn't say we're 10 years late anymore if I was to point at it just putting a lot of respect and giving a lot of due to the people that have been driving hard to put us on the map from a different perspective than energy. And when people look at Alberta, there's probably people that don't think of Alberta as an energy province. They probably think of it tech province because that's how they got to know us. And I don't think that was really the case at all. I would have said 2019, 2018 maybe. But really, Covid was kind of a. Felt like a real catalyst moment just because it happened, that it happened right in the middle of it.

Speaker A: All. Right, Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, you know, love to ask you a thousand questions here. Right. Because you've had 530something incredible conversations. And so, you know, when you look at that and, you know, I think you did a, um, great job of, you know, from many different tech sectors or, sorry, industries. And, you know, even, you know, you look at even the soda and craft beer industry and the food industry and finance, you know, when you look at the diversity across, you know, Calgary and Alberta, um, what's your feelings like, has that been easier to get hold of those people and see what those people are up to? As we've kind of gone along on

Speaker B: the podcast, for me, someone people always ask me, tyler, how do you find your guests?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's like the question has always been, how do I fit them all in? There was periods of time we were booking six months in advance because I also believe there was such an energy around, hey, you know who you should talk to, you know, who's doing something cool, you know, and there was a level of, I think, awareness of other sectors and not all the sectors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But everyone I talked to, it wasn't just they weren't looking at the world through their own set of blinders, and that was starting to open up. And a lot of times people would listen to the show because they're like, I don't know who I would bump into. That was always our strategy. So I have Kevin on from tech, and I'm like, I'm not into tech. Well, but then Kevin's episode, he might have mentioned someone he knows over an egg, might have mentioned Wilson, or he might have known what Brenda Beckendorf was up to, Iot. And just thinking back, and then people would tell me, like, hey, I jumped onto some other rabbit holes and that story of like, oh, there's nothing going on in Alberta. You know what, it's only if you weren't willing to pay attention. And I noticed that start to shift, like early in 2020 when I started the show and Covid hit and everyone, I did 100 episodes the first year. From the first 10 to the last 10. In that hundred, there was so much more. Like, I started to notice the circles coming together right away. But I also noticed, and I'm going to play with one of my favorite buzzwords here. There was a curiosity started to churn in the city, uh, where people were like, hey, I don't really, I'm not into the beverage, uh, space. You just picked that one as a good one because I've had some people on from, uh, when the non alcohol craze started to get catch wind and. But people were curious enough about that this was also going on here that they were willing to check it out. And then they kind of gave me feedback on it. And I saw that happen like at a grounds roots level really slowly. And then as we got into 22, 23, a lot more people were a lot more aware that, that whatever they were working on, there was other things going on too. In the early days, I think that everyone kind of had their head down, ass up. Covid made that worse, but then all of a sudden made it better at the same time because you were kind of stuck in your own bubble. So those of us that are curious started aggressively trying to look at other bubbles.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I do think like, you know, I always say, you know, how many green cars did you see today? None. But as soon as we got focused on looking for green cars, they start popping up everywhere. And then we get really good about, because when we show up for dinner, we ask our uncle about green cars and he has a whole bunch that knows about out, you know, on this field and, and that type of thing. And, and so, you know, I think through this podcast, like just discovering these incredible people in the city that, you know, are working on really cool things in so many different verticals. Right. And, and the other thing I think that was really unique is, you know, platform was just kind of getting built and it's created like a community hub, right. Where you're seeing people come together now and maybe, you know, bumping into each other, having collisions. Um, I think you're seeing a lot more events in the city that are talking startup and innovation. And you know, Josh was on. I know he's talking to you about the events he's doing and you're the 500th episode, uh, event you hosted. You just look at the talent in that room and the incredible leaders in that room and what they're doing for the city in this province. And man, like it's hard not to be optimistic and feel like we're going to be in a really good spot for a long time here.

Speaker B: Well you think of like Calgary, how we do these, these OSIF kind of came to be during that period of time, like 2018 was when they really established and that kind of got rolling. So many things that we take for granted. I remember Terry came on the show and it was like, Tyler, we're going to build a parking garage, but it's going to be for innovation. I was like, terry, what are you talking about? You know, and now you drive by and you go there and I've been, you know, like, if you're involved at all, you've, you guarantee you've probably been to an event at Platform and like these things just weren't here five years ago. And I think as humans it's so easy to drive by. Oh, we've always had this. We didn't. That was still in the idea phase in those early stages. And like you said, uh, we've not arrived anywhere but we've definitely covered some ground. We've taken. There's a series of hills to climb and to take on this, on this hike, on this, on this, on this mission. Yeah. And I think we've taken some. So when you think about economic transformation, putting the question back to you is one of the originals. I'm going to read it. The perspective, you know, the word transformation, what it means for Calgary in our economy. How is even your definition of that word evolved from back when you uh, you know, encouraged me to start the show.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, when we talked about that and I think that was a lot of code word for like being too dependent on oil and gas. Right. Like we need to transform the city. We need to have diversity here. We need to make sure that we can bring talent in like for us and the tech industry and etc. And, and when, when I think of the city now, I think of many, uh, different challenges, right. Like that, you know, because you solve problems, new problems show up. But I feel like we have transformed a lot. Right. I use that example, bringing tech talent here. I think, you know, when you talk about the city, people don't just naturally always go to oil and gas. They talk about more things that are happening or they know different businesses that are happening. Here. So I think that's a really good sign. I think, you know, oil and gas is obviously a huge part of us, and I, you know, we don't want to get rid of it. I think it needs to stay a huge part of us.

Speaker B: We were asking for diversity, not removal of, uh, a player.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: You know, I think let's be really crystal clear about that statement as well.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And the innovation that's happening in that space. And, you know, I think some really cool things they're doing with energy, sustainability and the future. So I feel really optimistic. Um, you know, where I think in 2019, I had a lot of anxiety, like when we talked about that. Right. Like, you know, can the city become more than this one industry? And I feel we have done a lot of that. Uh, a lot more is going to come. I'm feeling, like I said, very bullish on it. Like, if I, if I just played my cards right now at this moment for you, transparently, it'd be very bullish on the city, very bullish on the province. Very concerned about my country right now. Right. Economically. Right.

Speaker B: I had a feeling you were, that's where you were taking that one. I feel similar.

Speaker A: And if we were to do it today, Tyler, I twist your arm to do this for Canada. Right. And I, uh, think part of the reason I'm so bullish on the province and the city is this kind of get her done attitude. There's this, this really strong ambition here. People that are willing to take risks, people that want to do big things and exciting things. And, you know, I feel that, you know, across the country, it's really hard to be ambitious. Uh, it's really hard to do certain projects or certain initiatives. Right. And that attitude here in this province, I think it's going to make us end up in a really, really good spot.

Speaker B: You know, that, that get her done attitude that, you know. And I hear that time and time again from investors. And I was chatting with someone the other day, uh, Gina, Rusty and who you introduced me. She was Tyler. When I raised money back in the day, she goes, I kind of forgot that I had to go to the US because no one wanted to take a risk. People were still like, oh, you know, let us know once you've reached this milestone, then we might. Or they, you know, the Canadian. Yes, absolutely. Just not today, which really is a fancy. No. Are you seeing a real difference with the companies you're running into at, uh, ah, different levels to what is happening in Alberta? Are we getting better at Taking those risks while at the same time, is that capital cycle, especially in the startup space, or scale up? I've heard two things. One, we need more people to write those first checks, but we also need a little bit more patient capital. Knowing that, you know, if you're not used to investing in the space, it takes a little bit of time. In your snapshot, I hear more people talk about it, but I don't think that problem's been solved is my take. I'm curious what you, what you're running into.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say a couple of things. You know, I do business in the US And I would say. And I'm just going to pivot this a little bit. Um, the US it's embracing of AI is at a higher and faster pace than Canada right now. Right. Like, just the risk, the entrepreneurial spirit, what they're doing, um, you know, they kind of see potential outcomes they can make happen with it, and they're all over it. And I think we're a little too slow here. I also think that there's, um, kind, uh, of economic sovereignty, data sovereignty that's playing out here. Right. The world's changing as we speak right now. Um, that what you're doing, economic independence in your own country is becoming a big theme. And obviously, as AI is playing out in that, so is data sovereignty. Right. I want to make sure that I have that AI for my own country, inside my own, my own borders. And so I feel like, um, and I don't raise money, I don't bump into the VC space all that much. I talk to my friends that are there. I feel that, you know, we've done a great job of, like, raising the profile of where you can go get money in Canada, who you should talk to, who can help you. And I think, you know, that ecosystem is doing better. But I still hear that, you know, I end up in the U.S. right. Like, I still, you know, I hear that too. 30% of it can get a little

Speaker B: bit of money there. And then I get pulled and then the tractor beam kind of comes on. And that magnetic pole.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For us is pulling when there's maybe better data center access. Like, there's other things, specifically from a tech perspective that I think it's not just money. There's an ecosystem. I've heard from some startup founders lately, like, it's really hard to stay here sometimes.

Speaker A: Right. And. And, you know, I don't like that, Kevin.

Speaker B: I don't like that. I don't like that. Talk to that. Talk. TR.

Speaker A: Well, And I do think we need to do better. Right. Because I do think, you know, if you use the analogy and look at people know more about this than I do. But you know, uh, if countries are having to depend on themselves, right. And I think Canada, we need to make sure that we are self reliant and that we can do things, build entrepreneurs, build our own companies, build startup. Not that we shouldn't participate in the global system. I think it's just, you know, we need to make sure that Canada has multiple markets, multiple entrepreneurship, strong economic independence. Just like a teenager that's going out to become an adult. Right. That can have that independence. They know they can stand on their own two feet. We need more of this. Right. That's where the world seems to be headed. And so encouraging our entrepreneurs, encouraging ambitious projects, allowing us to make sure that Canadians are investing in that, I think that's going to become an even more important muscle. And I really do feel, you know, even though my anxiety right now is at the national level, I think you know, five, six, seven years, because of who we are, we're going to be in a good spot, we're going to figure this out. But we got some work to do

Speaker B: for sure that's almost like running it like a well balanced business that has to mitigate this risk. I don't know, I want to sound cliche when I say that. So being also that this is your world when you talk about things like, you know, you didn't say it. I'm sovereign compute and uh, data centers and some of the movement and the big push. I know Alberta's making a play in that space and yeah, it's kind of almost at a fever pitch right now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, are those the kind of things that, you know, those are tough to do on a provincial level. They almost have to be national strategies. But you're right, the ability and the speed and the willingness to kind of quote unquote get shit done at the federal level seems to be. You know, there's some rhetoric right now that's maybe implying that we're going to get some shit done, but we haven't seen it yet.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Where we do have a getter done. You know, when you look at that, especially in the technology space, do you. Are those the difference makers where Alberta really starts to lean in on. On the dentist data center play and having a little more self reliance because it's hard to do with a smaller population like as a bigger entity. Being the federal perspective, there should be more money but there's Also, maybe not the willingness and more red tape. How do we balance those two things out or m. Multiple things, I guess.

Speaker A: Multiple. You know, I have the fortune to, you know, talk to people in the government and see what they're doing with AI and digital transformation. I'm very encouraged, very encouraged by Alberta's government and how we see this. Right. And some of the, you know, they're talking about, you know, AI procurement. It's very hard sometimes to procure with the government. Right. It takes a lot of cycles, and it can be very inefficient. And they understand that and kind of how they're leaning in and. And talking about making this.

Speaker B: And you're talking provincial. Just what you're talking about.

Speaker A: Provincial. 100% provincial. I see where they're looking at the agentic, uh, ability to help service the province and people in the province. And so I feel really good, like, from a provincial level, I see what's happening at the federal level. We work with the governments there. And to your point, there's just a lot more that has to happen. Right. A lot more coordination and a lot more, you know, bringing people together. And, you know, big projects are hard, especially if you try to do them by consensus. And at some point, leadership still matters.

Speaker B: Kevin, is that you're saying.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, at some point the urgency has to be there because of the threat. And I just feel like, you know, our federal government has to understand that and put more pressure and more speed on this thing. Uh, easier said than done. I understand the difficulties of their position, but, you know, AI is changing the world in ways that will, like, fundamentally, we can't understand right now. It's bigger than the Internet. It's the industrial revolution. It's the steam machines, it's steam engines. Um, and if you really embrace that moment, then you've got to make sure that speed, agility, uh, dealing with regulations in the right way, not saying things shouldn't be, uh, we need rules. Right. But we also understand that we have to move, uh, at a certain speed here, and that has to be picked up.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just taking everything that you. Just exciting and scary all at the same time. You think about even inside your. Or you guys are. You guys are a large organization still dealing with a bunch of individual humans, as we all do. How do you manage that level? Because some like that level of constant pressure, which motivates us to change, but there's an operational cadence that does also burn people out. Like, from a leadership perspective, as we talk about leadership, the way you talk to your team today, the way you and I chat on the show, to the way we lead at a provincial level, that constant pressure, although it feels like it's required, there's also a toll and a price to pay where not everyone can balance that. Like touching on the leadership bucket for a little bit. When we think about that future you just described, how do we maintain that balance of keeping everybody from just getting completely fried in the whole journey?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I think AI, the. My advice is it's the, you know, the paradox, right? Power and the ideas of paradox. And, and so the more we use AI, the more human we have to become and the better humans it should make us. And so, you know, if I look at AI, you know, one of things we talk to our teams about is design away the work you hate. Right? The work that's got monotony to it, that kind of, you know, just doesn't allow you to be human.

Speaker B: I didn't sign up to do this.

Speaker A: Right. Enter yet again in the data, uh, the Excel spreadsheet the 30th time. Right. Over and over again. Um, let's unleash our creativity, let's unleash our intelligence, let's unleash our diverse thinking. And so if we can design a way that work, and I think we have a real opportunity here to make the human experience better. I understand and I don't dismiss the safety concerns around AI and legitimately we need to be talking about those things. But I also, I'm hoping people are seeing this as a way to design a better human experience for all of us. Right. And so if I can get rid of some of that work that's really hard for humans to do and maybe it's mind numbing and I can release some of that more humanness of you, I think that's a better work experience for you. Right. And we always say at Longview, you know, we don't want to be 100 people with maximized profit with AI, we want to be 10,000 people that have incredible careers that get to work with AI and they're excited about it. And this market opportunity and the ability, if I can take away things that really just take away your human spirit, crush, uh, your human soul. But I allow you to lean into the things that empower you and get you excited and you're super pumped to come to work, what an amazing place we can end up. I look at two industries around AI for just insights, uh, education and healthcare, to me, really kind of show you, I think, where AI is headed towards and very hard to predict the future. I'm sure lots will change. Um, but they kind of give you, I think, a bit of the path. And I look at education. For example, there's a school, Alpha School down in the U.S. i think it's kindergarten to grade eight somewhere around there. It's kind of like a POC school. Um, right now I think there's 10 of them or so. And what they do is the first three hours, no teachers, only students with AI and their computers. But that AI is highly personalized to them, right? So, so uh, if you're grade six but you're doing grade 10 math, it's going to take you to grade 10 math. But if you're the example I saw the young girl was really into marine biology, so was teaching her lessons through marine biology examples, right? You're in a sub, you're going to collect, um, specimens, et cetera. And then the next three hours of the school is no computers, right? It's community, it's entrepreneurship, it's presentations, it's crafts, it's uh, gym. And so to me I think there's really good lessons in there. One is this highly personalized way to service people and kind of help them expand and become better, right. The fact that I think, you know, my dad was raised in a one room schoolhouse seems so archaic, so historic, right? That the fact that, you know, we put 35 kids in a school room and we all try to teach them at this level of education, what a challenge that is. Obviously our teachers in Alberta have been been discussing that pretty passionately recently. But now I can customize this to you, right? I can give you this incredible experience. If you look at healthcare, you know, I've got a Garmin watch on here and collecting data for my own situation, uh, that I share with my doctors and use with AI versus you know, a generic statement of uh, you know, you're this age, you're in this group. Um, no, this is very customized. So now I can kind of come up with more dedicated medical, uh, kind of plays for my own situation, right? And so you can see what's happening here. Really dedicated data that allows for very specialized service for individuals that allows you to kind of get more value and to kind of get better returns out of things. And, and so I think playing that out, uh, across many verticals is what we're going to see when you're having

Speaker B: conversations with companies in Canada or versus the U.S. because you have that privilege of being both sides of the border, like what you talked about, about how. Yeah, like let's work, let's, let's, let's process away the work you don'. Versus, oh man. How many people can we get rid of? How can we replace? Yeah, uh, where are you seeing? Is there, is there a real imbalance, uh, in the conversation or is it really still on a company by company basis? And I love to look outside to our neighbors to the south. Love them or hate them or whatever cycle you happen to be in right now with the news, uh, are the same kind of questions being answered, like, are people embracing it the way you positioned, which felt very positive and very employee centric versus man. I just want to get rid of more people and replace them with more.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, it's a tool. It shows up how you or culture or how you think about the world shows up. Right. So unfortunately, I could give you that whole spectrum. Right. And I do like to me, our design, I would just say our design principle shouldn't be, hey, let's remove as many humans from the workforce as possible. That just doesn't feel right and doesn't feel like it ends up in a good spot for you. Um, I understand there's certain areas, right. Where there's like human labor that probably doesn't make sense. And once again from the human experience and maybe cost efficiencies and effectiveness, those jobs going to change. Right. I was a, I was raised, my dad was an auto worker. I lived through free trade or, you know, ended up in the Rust Belt. We fought for our lives, our economic lives and, and uh, it was a really difficult thing. I don't want that to happen through

Speaker B: AI A lot of those communities still have not recovered. Some have, some have pivoted, some have gentrified, some have done, you know, whether it's Buffalo as an example, but you look at those, that Detroit area around there, there's a lot of, a lot of cities that never like gold rush towns. Like you can pick the cycles right. In our, in our like short history as a, as a North America even.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think, like, I look at that moment where, you know, automation was coming and you know, they're taking the plants down to Mexico and. But I think we missed an opportunity. Right. I think if my dad's plant had embraced robotics and automation and not had fought it so hard, that plant probably would have still existed. My dad, whose body was destroyed by the factory, had herniated discs that were exploding in his back, um, you know, when he was retired. Like that could have been a different world. Um, and so, like, fighting it on the extremes.

Speaker B: Be careful on what we fight. Right. Versus understanding a different way of doing things.

Speaker A: Right. Because, like, to me, tools and things show up in our values and our ethics. And so that's what we need to lean into. Right. The things that are really important to us and design with those in mind and keep those at the center. Um, you know, if you think about AI and the transformation that's going to happen here, I really think, yeah, we've got some major concerns. Um, you know, one of the ones I think people don't talk about is, you know, on a global level, the way we've raised people of, uh, poverty and you can argue the ethics, if it's right or wrong is labor arbitrage. Right. I'm willing to do that. Work cheaper. You know, I'll do that for $2. I'll do that for a dollar. Well, AI removes that. Right? Because it's going to be automated and with AI and so, you know, how do we encourage the rest of the world to keep developing and how do we take care of those people? Right. That. That's something, you know, we need to have honest conversations about. I also, you know, one of the narratives and I live this, you know, when free trade came and people were just like, go with the times. And you don't understand and you're just like, against the future. And we're like, no, this is impacting our lives. Like, there's. There's impact, there's negative downside.

Speaker B: I'm not thinking about the future because I'm trying to, I'm trying to eat.

Speaker A: Yeah. And just negatively or just not listening to those voices or like, bring those voices in. What. Let's hear from them. And how do we make this a win for them? Right. I. I think we, we, we need to do that in this moment, and we. That. But to try to put AI back in the genie box or genie bottle is not going to happen. Um, so let's design it for what we want and, uh, really lean into how it should show up for us and our own values, you know? Yeah.

Speaker B: Pretending it's just going to go away. I say this very jokingly, sometimes with a degree of shame, but also humor. I thought the Internet was a fad back in the late 90s. And I was like, I'm not going to waste any time with this. Hey, I was wrong.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Now when technology comes, I learned the lesson. I go, I'm going to be curious. I'm going to engage, I'm going to learn. I'm curious. You touched on a few things. Do you see? You know, and I feel it's changing, but it's also green cars. Who am I talking to? Yeah, the extreme anti energy narrative seems to have mellowed out. I think nationally, globally it's changed. People got different priorities. But Alberta, I don't know if it's only because if you look at our energy sector, it is such a massive driver of our economy. But now we've also got all these other things to talk about.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And of course the energy sector has changed. It's got, you know, they're more efficient, they do more with less, they have smaller teams, there's less bloat. Maybe it's not as profitable, but if you look behind the scenes there's been some very profitably well run oil companies, uh, specifically fossil fuels companies in the last bunch of years. Have we recently more balanced narrative or was that just an extreme cycle? And I don't want to call it ESG cycle because I'm not saying any of those things were wrong, but it was black and white. Right. I'm right, you're wrong, that seems to have calmed down. But maybe I'm just drinking the Alberta Kool Aid.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean maybe my, myself as well. I would say life got and has gotten really expensive and I think people connected it to energy and they understood the cost of energy and what it means and uh, and the importance of energy. And I, I think there was a, maybe a more holistic conversation around energy especially at the national level of uh, like you know, thank God, thank God, thank God what we need to do, you know, to get to the other side of this. And, and I think people realize, and I hope they realize that, you know, know oil and gas companies, energy companies are committed to that and they're trying to, you know, really understand innovation and really try to, you know, make sure we get to sustainable energy. But the practicality of taking care of our societies right now, there's a pragmatic thing going on. So that, that's what feels like it's coming to the conversation. And I think you know, maybe less um, kind of emotion or religious argument and more pragmatic uh, understanding of you know, how do you innovate, how do you evolve, how do you take care of people, uh, in that moment that we're in. So that's feeling good. I do really like that the energy story of innovation is coming out and kind of how they're committed to it and what they're doing and there's just like Practical things they're trying to work through. Right. That they have to solve. Uh, and I think uh, people are understanding that at a better level.

Speaker B: It seems to be, the narrative seems to be a little bit more balanced and of course you can find, you can find extremes wherever you want to look. That's also kind of what gets airtime. But you know, it felt scary for a while. If you look at, you know, man made famines, whether it's uh, whether it's Ireland, whether it's China, whether it's Ukraine famine, we were, we were really trying to create an energy famine for ourselves, like on purpose. It felt like for a bit there if, yeah, if we weren't, if we weren't careful, which it feels like that's kind of balanced out a little bit more now.

Speaker A: Not to be dramatic, but I think so. I think so. I think you know, there's a pragmatic talk about energy especially because people fill in their pocketbooks now and unfortunately and, and it's been really tough for a

Speaker B: lot of things about raising people out of poverty. You know, I was listening to a speaker recently, uh, very senior, you know, advisor to the White House, multiple administrations, that kind of, that kind of a guy, Canada, Power by women brought him in, Tracy and her team. And he said, you know, statistically if you look at it, the number one thing that's going to elevate people out of poverty around the world is access to good energy, reliable energy source. And he goes, you know, yet we sit here with this abundance and have the privilege of saying that we should shut that down.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And he was talking more on a global stage and he can't deny that you, you take someone from burning dung in Africa somewhere and you give them a reliable energy source especially. And he was also talking about women particularly will be elevated almost instantaneously by that access and you know, that abundance conversation where it's almost a luxury to even talk about turning off the power. Yeah, it's not realistic. I know we're going down a little bit of a rabbit hole, but it feels like that conversation overall from when I started this chats back in 2019, 2020 has shifted quite drama dramatically in the last five years to be a little less rhetoric and a little bit more balanced because other things have become important.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, I think, you know, we, we come back to the economic transformation and kind of the strength of the city and the future of the city. And I think, you know, one of the things, you know, Calgary leaning into innovation. Calgary, you know, it's Very clean oil and gas. Right. They're very committed to that. I think some of the highest standards in the world. Right. And, and the fact that you know, the world understands, hey, we need to go to that and get energy. Especially with AI coming on and kind of uh, the future, what it holds, right, that we need more energy. Let's just do it in a smart way. Let's do it in the best way we can. Let's get to the other side of this in a sustainable way. Um, that lines up so well for where Calgary is and kind of the transformation that's been happening here. Right. Like we are in such a good spot, uh, to help the world get to a stronger spot here where if,

Speaker B: if there is a last barrel, it should be Canadian. As I've, as I've had said on the show, um, you talked about the ability and now more, a little bit easier to bring talent here. What about brain drain? You have a young, you have a son who's probably at that age that he might strike off to discover the world and himself in the journey. Are you seeing um, our youth? And that's a pretty broad statement. Stick around because they see other ways. They're like, ah, you know, maybe I wasn't into being a geologist or a, ah, you know, petroleum engineer. But hey, I can go try tech or I can go volunteer. I can work at a startup. I can go to platform and just hang out and m meet founders. Are you hearing it or do you have any optics on? You know, the feeling of a 22 year old. Maybe your son has a good case study.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. And my son's graduated. He, you know, he works in the city and um, his friend group, like they don't talk about oil and gas. Right. Like it's just like, you know, it's not like the thing of the city. And they've all stayed here and they're working here and are just about to graduate and there's not talk about leaving the city but they don't see it as like, oh hey, oil and gas jobs, boom or bust, right? Like that's just not part of the vocab now. You know, they're working the service industry. My son works with special needs, um, children and adults and, and so, but it's just interesting to watch their narrative right now. The one thing I'll say about bringing talent here and one of kind of our superpowers right now is affordable living. So you know, I have offices in Vancouver, I have offices in Toronto. Um, it is so hard to convince somebody to move to those cities because of how expensive it is to live there, right? The size of the house they're going to have, right? The ability for, you know, people that are raising young families right now with childcare and houses don't want to live

Speaker B: in a one bedroom apartment at downtown Vancouver.

Speaker A: It is, it's such a tough thing, right? The, the, you look at major cities, New York City, right? You look down at San Fran, right, Like, like the affordability crisis in those cities is a real thing. And uh, that has been one of the major things for us to be able to recruit here. And I know, you know, the former mayor, we had a great discussion with her around the importance of this, right? That this is a city that people can come here and they feel like they can actually, you know, have a really good quality of life. You know, I can afford a house, traffic's, uh, not too bad, right. I can actually do a commute and not waste two hours of my life on either side of that. I have an amazing playground in the mountains. And you know, I, you know, in that conversation we had with the city was like, what is the role of the city versus the role of somebody like Longview? The role of Longview with our, you know, tech, um, sector is to make this a really exciting place for people to come to work. The role of the city is give me really good infrastructure so people want to come here and want to live here and can afford to live.

Speaker B: Everything from transportation to child care to where I can live to access to.

Speaker A: And it's a safe city.

Speaker B: Like Louise has been getting puked on. It's two hours away.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. And it's a safe city.

Speaker B: And yeah, you come, you come for a meeting and stay for the mountains or. I've heard and, but also what I've heard from individuals is like, hey, I was a little bit scared to move here from Toronto because I didn't see what my next job was in, you know, because I'm going to come, I'm going to do something for a few years, I'm going to move on. I don't hear that anymore. I've talked to a few people, I specifically asked them, I said, hey, what's your thought? They're like, no, no. I looked around, I took a little bit of a, you know, uh, check the weather and I can move now, I can jump. And there's similar level, like more senior jobs. It felt a lot safer also to move here. For someone who's kind of on that career growth trajectory Trajectory.

Speaker A: Yeah, I would absolutely say that's changed.

Speaker B: That's changed in the last five years significantly, in my opinion, I think.

Speaker A: And even just the last two about like.

Speaker B: Touche.

Speaker A: Right. And. But the other part to that, I would say is also, you know, bringing people especially, you know, I will just say, you know, uh, from, from across the world and from major cities as the diversity of the city. Right. Like, you know, and the fact that I think we've done a better job of highlighting those stories and those voices and seeing, you know, people be successful in this city and showing diversity, cultural diversity and leaning into that. It's such an important part of Calgary and who we are. And, and so then when you're recruiting people, it feels like a more welcoming city and a city that they can come live in. And so to me, between, you know, having some more tech sector here, having affordable living here, showing the diversity of this city, like, those have been things that have really helped talent show up and stay here for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah, we've definitely grown up and definitely evolved. Um, hey, just curiously, because I've been hearing from a few people, the job market seems a little tight. Right? Were you guys seeing that? Because I know you've always had feast or famine with your own recruiting and you guys are always on a cycle of looking for good people.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's tight for us in special, uh, skill areas, like specific skills, like, you know, I would say cybersecurity, obviously, AI data. Ah, those types of things. Um, you know, you're competing globally a lot of times with a lot of those skill sets now. Right. People are working from kind of wherever they choose and, and can kind of pick those.

Speaker B: If you've got the, if you've got the resume, you. It's, it's an equally empowered, um, relationship between employee and employer now, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we're definitely, we're definitely seeing some of that. And, and to your point, I don't know if that will change. Um, just obviously AI is growing and there's more momentum and so we're going to need more and more people. And you know, the, the nice thing I, I'll tell people that are looking to get into that career is, you know, there's not a lot like, yes, AI has been around for a while, but AI in this state, you know, people can't go, hey, I've been working on it for 10 years, right? Like, this is a new thing.

Speaker B: This is a new thing. So everybody's this kind of equal. And the best way to learn, learn it is out there in, quote unquote, in the, in the field. All right, well, let's, let's bring up a couple old, old schools here. Um, the magic wand. Let's, let's bust out our crystal balls and, you know, we'll get the incense burning and we'll talk about the. We'll read some tarot cards here. Kevin, um, you led with some optimism, which I love. And, you know, I've known you to be a glass half full, and I'm going to climb the mountain while holding the glass kind of guy, so I do appreciate that. But if you were going to take your magic wand and look at the future and go, all right, what are we going to do to keep ourselves on this path? Not even to make it better, because back in 2019, there was a we need to get better story. Yeah, this is pretty. But, uh, ever vigilant. What would you do with your magic wand? What's your crystal ball look like? And, you know, specific, as specific as you want to be. What does the next three to five look like if, uh, you've got your magic wand?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I would say, you know, unleashing, uh, more, you know, venture capital in the city, in the province would be huge. Right?

Speaker B: More money. More money floating around.

Speaker A: More money and taking risk and obviously, very easy to say, um, not writing those checks, but yeah, I hear you. The ability for those companies, those, those ideas to really be funded here in Calgary. Right, for sure. I would, you know, absolutely. Keep the city affordable and make sure that that infrastructure is there so that young families can stay here and grow here. I would lean in, like the stuff that's going on at U of C around AI, uh, and quantum computing and, and the post secondaries. I think Tyler ask you this question here because I think you might have a better insight to me, to this than myself, but those post secondaries are such an important part of an innovation ecosystem, right? And what they do and who they bring and how they make it happen.

Speaker B: So I think they've all been working very hard from the conversations I've had. The old days, they had three to six years to spin up a new course. Now they have three to six minutes to spin up a new. I'm exaggerating, but I've chatted whether it's Bow Valley, whether it's, say, whether it's Smile Oil, whether it's ufc, I've had them all on at different periods of time. And I definitely noticed there was a real drive to the individuals to, like, we need to go Faster. We need to be more on point. We need to be more uh, relevant to what the need was. And I think it feels like the administrations and they're all a little bit different depending on their, their, their kind of architecture. But I think they're all getting a lot better to try to meet the industry where it is on a much shorter trajectory than these long predetermined career paths that just aren't the same anymore.

Speaker A: 100 and if.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've seen that in those five years of conversations. I've seen that evolved to like we need to be better at this to where actually our guys getting better at it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that magic wand of bringing that talent to the university and that you know, like top AI professors and you know, other areas, biotech, etc coming here and, and those people being entrepreneurs in the city. Right. But uh, you know, I want to ask you because you've had you know, 500, over 500 incredible conversations. I think you might be one of the best people to answer this because you, you know, you, I know you started, you said beginner's mindset. I don't know anything about this ecosystem system now. 500 conversations later, what, what would you say to that for the city and kind of where we're at?

Speaker B: You know, I think it, it, it I want to bang more people together. I'm all about collisions and I want to just kind of hey, great way to work the title into the, into your answer Tyler. Uh, but the more that we can collide and I think the risk of staying in our own lanes too much and you uh, know and it happens because you get busy, you're going to head down ass up and you're working on stuff. But I've often found when I talk to people it's like oh, I bumped into so and so and something they shared kind of opened up my perspective. So I think we need to continue to bang in, in bang together our ag sector and our energy sector and our defense sector and our, and our universities and I. Another thing I would love to see is to pick on your university is like how do we get better at monetizing out of pulling it through the university out of what is intellectual capital, what is trademarks and all the scarcity around. Like oh, someone might take m my idea to actually getting that idea out commercialized and funded. And I've heard from different people that like sometimes we're good at that but oftentimes we're not. Sometimes the US has better examples of that. So I think being able to enable Our universities to get a closer connection to a, uh, researcher and an entrepreneur sometimes don't have the same mindset, but if they can hang out together, something powerful can happen. Back to your point about great to have, you know, higher ed, but how is it, how is the rubber meeting the road? I want to see government continuing to, uh, you know, keep the guardrails, but have them wide enough that it isn't just a series of lanes crisscrossing each other in between those guardrails that I think, you know, government has an opportunity to enable, to remove friction, to support financially, maybe de. Risk some of those earlier, earlier stages. But I get it.

Speaker A: It's.

Speaker B: Sometimes the role of government is to protect itself. And I think there's a fine balance of where that sits in. It's not administration for the sake of it, it's administration for the sake of enabling. I think businesses are what will change our future as long as we've got the right guardrails and, you know, all those things, um, the, the capital side of things I think is interesting because I've talked to so many people in the VC space in the early stage. I think we're getting a lot better at that. But you're right, I think there can just be, be more, more, um, what else can we, can we, can we throw, can we throw into this, this, this, this mix? Honestly, uh, and you touched on it a little bit, but we're starting to really fall behind as a city. Like, we're waiting too long to do things. We're waiting, we're, we're, we're bureaucracizing ourselves to death. A big city, big quote, unquote, big city without proper transportation infrastructure, without like, any of what they're doing in Victoria Park. And I know we're on that path, but we can't be 10 years behind. There's lots of examples globally of countries and, and smaller than us that have waited too long and now their productivity is in the toilet, they're hurting economically. We're on the verge of really kind of being in that bad space. Maybe not Alberta as much, but as Canada. So I think, like, how do we actually get better at actually getting stuff done? Like, take a little bit more of that entrepreneurial drive and translate it at the provincial and federal level, whether it's, that's infrastructure, all the things that we need to do to. Like you said, I'm, um, not going to move here if there isn't a backdrop. You know, I think it was Alex Sarian I talked to said, you know, what was your clincher? You left New York to come here? He goes, I went to the new life. I went to the library.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I was like, oh, okay, I see what we're trying to do here. But he goes up to that point, he goes, tyler, I was pretty skeptical.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, what other things can we point at as a city that are going to allow those people that have high choice, high mobility and, like, are in demand to choose here? Like, we can choose them, but they still have to choose us. Back to that arranged marriage kind of situation.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, I think some of those infrastructure pieces in our city that, that take a long time. Like, it's. When's the best time to plant a tree? 20 years ago, but if not, then how about today? Yeah. Um, I think we've got some tree situations that we've got to get in the ground here pretty quick or else five years from now, it's going to look a lot farther away than it does right now.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's a moment for courage and ambition. Right. The world's changing in big ways. That's why I feel so bullish on this province, the city is because we've shown courage and grit and that get her done mentality. And I think that just lines up, up, uh, for moments like this in history for sure. Yeah.

Speaker B: And how do we, you know, when we're so fearful? Because people get lambasted for taking risk. You know, they get elevated if it works and they get lambasted if it doesn't.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: How do we, how do we balance that out a little bit to make it a little safer to take risk? But I get it. Risk is always not safe. Like it's not. Those two, those two words almost don't go together.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But like, it can't be life and death every time. That's not realistic. I might go on this hike and I could very well die. Okay. Well, it's risky, but I probably will be okay. Like, how do we get us more in that category then, you know, when it, when it's. The death is. Death is option B, career, uh, whatever it might be, business wise, there's got to be somewhere in the balance. And I think that, you know, the right government funding in the right place to de risk those early stage, uh, high impact, um, initiatives that often take multiple years and longer than an election cycle. I don't know how we get better at that, but if we don't, we're going to fall behind nations that, that

Speaker A: are, that do well one way is, is modeling. And, and you've shown, you know, over 500 incredible people in this province that have that courage and ambition to do it right. And, and to me, I, you know, one of the ways I've used the podcast is when people are like, hey, what's exciting going on in the city? Who should I be talking to? I'm like, go look at the collisions YYC webpage and uh, look at that episode.

Speaker B: If you don't think there isn't anything going on here, it's because you're not digging in to find it out. Because there's a lot going on here.

Speaker A: And see these incredible people that like, model. I think what we are, we're talking

Speaker B: about startup founders who got their first $50,000 check to somebody who's making a pivot on a, on a major energy company. Yeah. In a high risk, like, high pressure environment that, uh, you know, had a lot of daggers being thrown at it. Like, there's a lot of diversity in terms of what has been happening in Western Canada.

Speaker A: For sure, 100% right. So fingers crossed. Feeling very bullish. We never arrive at the finish line, but man, we're in such a stronger spot than 2019.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh my goodness. It's like a different conversation. And again, I love your, I love your green cars example. I became so bullish, you know, and it's just a piece of advice for everybody. One, go seek out those positive stories. Because guess what? The filter starts to come on that I woke up every day to do this podcast and put on rose colored glasses and I started to forget that I was wearing them. So guess what? That's just what it becomes. And you know, if you got to trick yourself into seeing positive things, it's still worth it because eventually, you know, there's, I think as, uh, there's a psychologist or he's a famous example of a marriage counselor. And he said, you know, you can work with me, but you have to promise for 30 days before we start. You have to pretend to love each other like you did did before. Like things went sideways. Fake it. His success rate was through the roof because neurologically it changes how you see the world. It's a crazy example.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But if you wake up and go, calgary's awesome, and I'm going to do everything I can to find the awesome and contribute to it. Guess what happens, kids? Guess what happens. I don't get all fluffy at the end, but I found it to be true.

Speaker A: That's awesome.

Speaker B: So, you know, if you need a marriage counselor, I'VE heard he's very successful. I'm not sure, uh, I should research that example because I thought I heard it years ago, but it always, it proved to me the power, the power of how you fire your neurons and what you focus on is what happens in Western Canada. We have a getter done attitude. And I think continuing to focus on that from every perspective we can is going to continue to be the way forward. No question.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker B: You got me all fired up there at the end.

Speaker A: Well, I, we started here, but I also want to say this. You know, Tyler, I think you, what you've done here with collisions has been a huge piece of that journey and why we're in such a better spot. Um, I know that people that I've bumped into, that I'm doing business with, that I've connected with, has a lot or that comes back to this podcast. Right. That's where I got connected to them. So you've given us a great gift. Really appreciate it. I know it takes a lot of time and effort and resources and you did out of the passion and love for this city and this province. And, um, it means a lot to us that are out in this ecosystem trying to make it happen. So thank you for this incredible gift. Thank you for all the work you've done on it. You've, uh, made Calgary a better city, the Alberta better province, and here we are in a bullish moment in 2025.

Speaker B: I love it. Kevin, thank you so much for the kind words and just kiss anyone's curious. Uh, I'm not done by any stretch of the imagination, so take out. Tyler. Chisholm.com I have learned about the power of curiosity, not only as a human being, but as a leader through doing this show. And for some of you that know or don't know, I'm really embracing that as such. Uh, it's just, it's almost table stakes and it's also something to be excited about. So I'm starting a new podcast called Curious as Hell. Leading and growing in today's world. And curiosity, I think, is the backbone of all of it. So if you are, enjoy this rhetoric, we're doing a very different model. We're going to have different types of guests on. It's going to be a lot of fun. So a little blatant plug because I have fallen in love with this medium because I get to have conversations like this. So I can't give this up no matter what. But it was time to evolve and it was time to continue on the journey like all of us do. So thank you everyone who's tuned in, uh, and given me the feedback and just been a supporter. It's been an amazing, um, way to. To deliberately be part of my own community. And for that, I will always be thankful.