Carport Solar Done Right: Engineering, Pricing, and Building for the Long Haul #357

1 - > Kyle Sinclair: So it's really critical that when something 2 - > does happen in the field, which it does every time, you know 3 - > that you have those plan B's, you know, and a lot of the 4 - > carport groups that I've worked with in the past, they do a good 5 - > job of that, of saying, "Hey, okay, here's plan B, here's plan 6 - > C, here's all your different foundation designs, where I've 7 - > found in the industry, where that real gap is, is that okay, 8 - > now these have to be reviewed and added to the draw package 9 - > and restamped, and then the materials then will be modified 10 - > and have to get to the site, so the installation can stay in 11 - > sequence.

The 12 - > intro: clean energy industry is moving fast. The deals are 13 - > getting bigger. The technology is evolving, and the stakes have 14 - > never been higher. Welcome to the Clean Power Hour, the 15 - > podcast for solar storage and microgrid professionals who want 16 - > to stay ahead of it all.

Each week, your host Tim Montague, 17 - > industry advisor and president of Clean Power Consulting Group, 18 - > brings you unfiltered conversations with the leaders 19 - > actually building the energy transition. Now, here's your 20 - > host, Tim Montague. 21 - > Tim Montague: Welcome to Carport Solar Done Right, a clean power 22 - > hour live webinar. I'm Tim Montague, your host.

I've spent 23 - > the last 10 years in the commercial solar industry, and 24 - > if there's one thing I've learned, it's this: some 25 - > projects forgive mistakes. 26 - > Carports do not. One wrong assumption about soil 27 - > conditions, one structural detail overlooked, one steel 28 - > price swing between bid and build, one unexpected conflict 29 - > underground, and any one of those things can wipe out your 30 - > margin. All of them together can sink your company, and yet 31 - > carports are becoming one of the fastest growing and most 32 - > misunderstood segments of commercial solar schools, 33 - > hospitals, manufacturing facilities, corporate campuses, 34 - > municipalities.

Everyone wants covered parking that also 35 - > produces clean electricity. So, if you've ever priced a carport 36 - > project, or you're thinking about betting one, you're going 37 - > to get a lot out of this next hour. The opportunity is 38 - > enormous, but only if you understand how these projects 39 - > actually work. Today's goal isn't to sell you a racking 40 - > system, it's to give you a framework from first bid to 41 - > commissioning, so you can avoid the expensive mistakes, protect 42 - > your margins, and build structures that are still 43 - > standing and producing 50 years from now.

That's why we brought 44 - > together today's panel. Between them, they've engineered, 45 - > manufactured, reviewed, and installed hundreds of megawatts 46 - > of solar structures. It's my pleasure to introduce our panel. 47 - > Kyle Sinclair is CEO and co-founder of Sinclair Designs 48 - > and engineering, SDE, Kyle and his team design and manufacture 49 - > ground mount and carport racking here in America, with a 50 - > reputation for solving hard structural problems instead of 51 - > avoiding them.

Kyle is a US Navy veteran who served as an 52 - > intelligence chief with Navy Special Warfare, and he brings 53 - > the same precision to building solar infrastructure. Kyle, 54 - > welcome. 55 - > Kyle Sinclair: Thank you, Tim. 56 - > Warm welcome to everyone joining the webinar today.

57 - > Tim Montague: James Strizke with is with Genmounts Renewable 58 - > Energy Holdings in Flemington, New Jersey. James lives in the 59 - > field. He's responsible for actually getting these projects 60 - > built, which means he understands exactly where 61 - > engineering drawings meet the reality of ground conditions, 62 - > construction schedules, and change orders. James, great to 63 - > have you.

64 - > James Strizki: Thank you very much for having me. 65 - > Tim Montague: And finally, Matt Boyce is principal engineer at 66 - > Engineered Solutions. Matt has 18 years of general contracting 67 - > experience across commercial, industrial, municipal, and heavy 68 - > highway work, plus 15 years of structural engineering and 69 - > design. He holds a PE license in 27 states, and he reviews 70 - > projects from an independent standpoint, helping owners, 71 - > developers, and EPCs build assets that will perform for 72 - > decades, not just past inspection.

Matt, welcome. 73 - > Matt Boyce: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. 74 - > Tim Montague: Wonderful.

Well, let's jump in, gentlemen. Kyle, 75 - > big picture first. Why do experienced EPCs who can build a 76 - > flawless rooftop system still get surprised when they move 77 - > into carports, 78 - > Kyle Sinclair: you know, so to answer your question directly, 79 - > EPCs that are new to installing carports are often surprised by 80 - > that higher level of heavy construction that is required 81 - > with these types of projects. 82 - > Tim Montague: Matt, you're an independent reviewer here, so.

I 83 - > want you next. By the time a project reaches your desk, what 84 - > are the most common engineering mistakes you're already finding 85 - > baked in? 86 - > Matt Boyce: I wouldn't necessarily say that they're 87 - > mistakes, but they could be potential pitfalls that we could 88 - > come up with, because by the time, by the time I see a 89 - > project, we know, like, the really big aspects that affect 90 - > the design are where is it, what are the geographical concerns, 91 - > be it wind load, snow load, the types of soils that we run into, 92 - > so once once I see it, we know all of that, so it's just a 93 - > matter of making sure that the trusted and proven design that 94 - > we have works in a particular location that we're deciding to 95 - > install, the biggest pitfall potential pitfall is everybody 96 - > looks out across the parking lot and says, oh, well, this will be 97 - > perfect for solar, and that's not true.

So, you know, we could 98 - > do our due diligence and get geotechnical studies done, drill 99 - > some test holes, and find out what all is under that beautiful 100 - > parking lot that you have to find out where we could 101 - > potentially have problems, and we try, and we.. it's not that 102 - > we try, we do design for the information that we receive from 103 - > that, but the biggest problem that we could run into is 104 - > unforeseen conditions, we can only, we're only going to drill 105 - > so many holes, and depending on the size of the project, we 106 - > could hit an old foundation, we could hit a sinkhole, or some 107 - > sort of void, we could get bad soils, you know, high plastic 108 - > clays, so we just have to be on the lookout for what we would 109 - > need to do to address that.

So, going back to the pitfall part 110 - > of it, is the developer has got to have contingency in for that, 111 - > because that's the biggest unforeseen condition, 112 - > Tim Montague: indeed. indeed, so James, how much of what Kyle and 113 - > Matt just described to you do you actually see once the crew 114 - > is on site, and where do projects start to experience 115 - > challenges or potentially unravel? 116 - > James Strizki: Projects really start to unravel right from the 117 - > initial steps, basically like any project in any house, and 118 - > anything you do kind of in life, you have to start with a firm 119 - > foundation and then build up from there.

Well, in carports, 120 - > the foundation can be the hardest, you know, is usually 121 - > 99.9% of the time the hardest part of the project, as Matt 122 - > kind of described earlier, if we become across soils that are not 123 - > consistent with what we initially thought they were 124 - > going to be, or we hit obstructions in the ground, or 125 - > we find that there's utilities that weren't necessarily found 126 - > before, you know, it can derail a project really quickly, and 127 - > it's not only that it derails the project quickly from a 128 - > standpoint of not being able to build it, depending on what you 129 - > uncover in the ground, you know, it can actually even kill, 130 - > absolutely kill projects.

I've had that happen to me in the 131 - > past, where I actually, we, you know, we excavated on a project, 132 - > and we found out that there were four foot voids underneath the 133 - > parking lot that were previous heating ducts made of brick, so 134 - > it's once we can get through the foundations and working with 135 - > those, you know, the project is a lot. There's a lot more 136 - > seamless, but the foundations I'd say almost all every time is 137 - > where customers can and ourselves can be derailed from a 138 - > financial perspective, and I guess one other real big point 139 - > is that when you come up across these foundation issues, you 140 - > always have a lot of people and a lot of subcontractors or a lot 141 - > of vendors in line, whether it be concrete or, you know, just 142 - > manpower, and when you have people sitting stagnant at 143 - > prevailing wages, it can exponentially blow up the 144 - > budget.

145 - > Tim Montague: So, if I can summarize, car ports aren't 146 - > harder because they're solar, they're harder because of 147 - > inherent uncertainty in the ground, the structure, and 148 - > potentially the supply chain. 149 - > Although I think that's probably the least of our concerns. So, 150 - > let's move into part two. How a good project actually happens.

151 - > Let's walk a successful project. 152 - > Pretend I'm an EPC who just won my first carport job. What 153 - > happens next, Kyle? Where do we start?

154 - > Kyle Sinclair: I would say that the EPC. That win the most have 155 - > actually spent a little money for preliminary engineering, so 156 - > they can provide an accurate bid based on that validated 157 - > information. So our repeat buyers have a lot of success 158 - > with that strategy, and we can easily recoup some of that 159 - > initial cost when certain projects move forward, so you 160 - > know, if we have kind of a 30% close rate, you know, on these 161 - > bigger jobs, so a lot of that initial engineering costs can be 162 - > recouped at a later date on that 163 - > James Strizki: too, just to add, yeah, and I couldn't agree with 164 - > Kyle more, the beginning due diligence process is paramount 165 - > to any successful project, and I have been fortunate and 166 - > unfortunate to work with people on both ends of that spectrum, 167 - > the people that are willing to put up the due diligence, 168 - > whether to find more soil conditions, to do test pits, to 169 - > do soil borings, to talk to previous building, to talk to 170 - > the maintenance owners or the maintenance directors that 171 - > normally have the most experience with the building, 172 - > and the people that have been there the longest.

The 173 - > information that you can get that's free and just takes time 174 - > to get is usually worth more than anything that you get out 175 - > of a geotech report, specifically when it comes to 176 - > those foundations. The second part of that, which Kyle also 177 - > mentioned, the due diligence of getting plans. Sometimes we have 178 - > surveys that were existent but are not brought to us. I 179 - > actually had a project just two weeks ago that a customer I 180 - > asked again, I was like, "You have any records of a previous 181 - > server or anything?

They then went back to the customer, and 182 - > this is actually upon already drilling foundations, and it was 183 - > over an existing parking structure, like an actual 184 - > parking garage that was demolished. He was then able to 185 - > locate the site plans and the construction plans of the 186 - > previous car of the previous parking garage, which then at 187 - > that point we had to design on the fly and redesign our 188 - > conceptual drawings to now customize design where the 189 - > foundations were going to go to miss the existing structures, so 190 - > these are all steps that you know unfortunately became 191 - > brought to our attention later, but if they are done initially, 192 - > you can see, you know, 10s, 20s, 30s, 50 1000s of dollars by just 193 - > doing a very, very detailed due diligence process.

I'm sorry, I 194 - > didn't mean to interrupt, but no, no, 195 - > Kyle Sinclair: please, that you know, there's, there's really, 196 - > you know, to add on to James's points, there, you know, there's 197 - > kind of four main processes in our workflow that we work on 198 - > really closely with both Matt and James, you know, first is 199 - > that geotechnical study in engineering, preliminary 200 - > engineering for the foundations to be able to provide some 201 - > upfront cost analysis, and then Matt does a really good job at 202 - > the finite element analysis of the structure against the site 203 - > specific building code requirements.

Following that, we 204 - > go into a full internal design review as a team, because you 205 - > know Matt may specify different grades and gages and yield 206 - > strengths or different profiles of the components to make sure 207 - > that we're engineering these structures for long lifespans, 208 - > so it's very important that our team catches those details and 209 - > that we're procuring the materials and that those batch 210 - > of materials are specified to the exact project, and then the 211 - > last step is, you know, manufacturing product 212 - > deployment, which is mainly from the Sinclair design side, but 213 - > once that project is official, you know, Jen Mounts is going to 214 - > ask those EPCs to issue a deposit to launch the formal 215 - > engineering review.

Everyone's busy this year, you know, the 216 - > commercial space is booming. 217 - > Licensed PES hourly rates are kind of like lawyers fees, so 218 - > when I call Matt or James, you know, I'm like, don't don't talk 219 - > too slowly or drag out the conversations, because we know 220 - > how expensive, you know, the time can be, and once those 221 - > deposits are issued, you know, Matt will review the Geotech 222 - > soil report, which is critical for determining the foundation 223 - > sizes, provide early insight to those design requirements.

What 224 - > size hole needs to be drilled? 225 - > Is there a high risk of underground obstructions? Is 226 - > there limestone, granite, shale, or calishi layers? Also, is 227 - > there a risk of high water tables?

Is that area in a flood 228 - > zone? You know, those sites can have a dramatic impact on the 229 - > overall cost for those foundations, and then next, when 230 - > we do the full structural design review, Matt reviews the 231 - > site-specific load requirements for the FDA, and it lets us know 232 - > early, you know, whether our standard components need 233 - > upgrading. And this is really where things get interesting, 234 - > because we try to prioritize those design decisions with the 235 - > manufacturing and procurement hat, so it's, you know, it's 236 - > easy for the professional engineers to run the couch and 237 - > say, hey, you need this size I beam, but it can be challenging 238 - > on the procurement side, especially with, you know, long 239 - > roll schedule lead times with the mills, so we can often find 240 - > a quicker and more cost-effective option, such as, 241 - > you know, welding additional gussets, or adding more bracing, 242 - > or using higher yield strength materials.

Oftentimes, that 243 - > leads to quicker lead times, and it's more cost-effective for the 244 - > end users, and then kind of those last steps is James and 245 - > his team, you know, plans for all civil underground obstacles, 246 - > such as communication, electrical, gas, water, sewer, 247 - > any prior steel metal obstructions from previous site 248 - > developments, that's very common in a lot of the projects that we 249 - > do. They also work really closely with the electrical 250 - > contractors, so we can design where the conduit runs need to 251 - > be placed, which side in our columns, you know, to add holes 252 - > for for those conduit runs, and then, and then at that point, 253 - > once that's complete, it's it's tailored to the installation 254 - > schedule, and once foundation cages are deployed, we really 255 - > focus on manufacturing hot tip galvanizing and scheduling 256 - > delivery to meet their install requirements, 257 - > Tim Montague: it, it may be obvious to some of our 258 - > listeners, but we're dealing with urban settings for the most 259 - > part here, right, and so you just don't know what was there 260 - > prior to that parking lot, and we are largely talking about 261 - > parking lots, not always, but, but the vast majority, and and 262 - > so it just looks like a parking lot, right, but you have no idea 263 - > what's under the ground five feet down, and so that is a huge 264 - > challenge, which we're going to continue to discuss, probably 265 - > throughout this webinar.

Matt or James, though. Do you want to 266 - > contribute anything else to this discussion right now? This is, 267 - > this is really great. You guys are making my job very easy.

My 268 - > Matt Boyce: part, my part is kind of easy in all of this. I, 269 - > I am the most reactive person, so I hear about projects where 270 - > you know Kyle or James will send me one and say, hey, we just 271 - > want some preliminary ideas on this one. This is some of the 272 - > information that we were able to put together, you know, a lot of 273 - > times again on the soils, James and his team sometimes will 274 - > track down previous, previously done geotech analysis from an 275 - > adjacent property, or whatever, which we can use, you know, just 276 - > to get an idea of the concept of what we're going to see 277 - > underground, but another cautionary thing about 278 - > underground is that again, you know, you look out across the 279 - > parking lot, and you know everybody sees like this like 280 - > nice black top with some light poles or whatever, but and then 281 - > you have the old timer on the property that's been around 282 - > there for 40 years said, well, nobody's, we've never built 283 - > anything here, and there's never been a utility across here, and 284 - > everything should be fine, right?

But we ran into a project 285 - > here recently up in Minnesota, where that parking lot was 286 - > constructed on six or eight feet of fill dirt, which is terrible 287 - > to try to build on. It's usually just thrown in there, especially 288 - > for a parking lot. It's never compacted properly, and it's 289 - > useless to build on, so you know if, if you think that, oh well, 290 - > nothing's ever been built here, we should be fine, that's not 291 - > necessarily the case. So, again, that the reason why these 292 - > conditions are unforeseen is because you have, we have no 293 - > idea until we go out there and put a shovel in the ground, 294 - > Tim Montague: and James and Kyle, I'm curious, how many 295 - > different foundation types do you commonly see with carports?

296 - > Because I, I'm, I'm a relative novice in this particular niche 297 - > space, but how many types of foundations are there. 298 - > James Strizki: I'd say they're typically two types of 299 - > foundations that we usually depend on. The preferred method, 300 - > which is just through the fact of it being as expeditious, and 301 - > for what you're doing, you get very good results from lateral 302 - > resistance and moment capacity is drilled shafts. Drilled 303 - > shafts are basically, you take an auger or a core barrel, you 304 - > drill down, you remove the spoils, you get down to 305 - > undisturbed earth.

The foundation depth is all 306 - > determined based on maths calculations. And then after 307 - > that, you either can do one of a couple things. If it's a clay 308 - > cohesive type soil, you're able to potentially put the 309 - > foundation, the rebar cages, basically suspend them in the 310 - > air with temporary formwork, and then pour the concrete up 311 - > against earth, which is the best, best method from from our 312 - > experience, and due to the fact that you're putting concrete, 313 - > you know, it's basically in direct contact with earth, and 314 - > there's no inner medium, and you're getting skin friction, 315 - > and you're filling all voids.

316 - > It's the best, the best of both worlds. The challenges come when 317 - > you get into non-cohesive soils that are then filling in the 318 - > hole, which can create all sorts of issues. In the past, we've 319 - > had to go anywhere from temporary casings, where you 320 - > have to put in CMP, which is corrugated metal pipe that keeps 321 - > the hole where you then have to insert the foundation cage into, 322 - > keeps it free of debris from the from other dirt falling in, but 323 - > when you do that, you have to make sure that there's no voids 324 - > around the casing that you're leaving in, so you either have 325 - > to compact it or have global fill placed around that casing.

326 - > The next type of foundation would be a spread type footing 327 - > that's usually used when the soil is becoming so non-cohesive 328 - > that it's all collapsing and it's becoming a ginormous hole, 329 - > or if there's obstructions in the ground that you're not able 330 - > to go below a certain depth, and that happens, you know that can 331 - > happen. The last type of foundation I had, which was like 332 - > a hybrid between the two, was we were working in soils that had 333 - > very low bearing capacity.

It was almost like muck and mush in 334 - > the Northeast, near Newark, New Jersey, where it was actually a 335 - > combination of helical piles that were screwed 30 foot into 336 - > the ground, and then were pure cap had a pure cap and were cast 337 - > into the concrete foundation, and that was to prevent 338 - > differential settlement over a period of time. So, there's 339 - > those are typically the three that I see that I've been 340 - > experienced with the most. I always recommend to the customer 341 - > that I try to get anything I can that is available at minimal 342 - > cost and or free 811 dig calls that's public utilities, any 343 - > public utility, when you call into 811 dig or dig jewelry, or 344 - > any of the ones in your area, they will come out and they have 345 - > to mark out public utilities, that is a very good stepping 346 - > point of saying, okay, well, we know we want to put out a 347 - > carport, let's let them at least come out, and they will mark out 348 - > sewer, gas, water, telecom.

You then kind of get an idea of what 349 - > you're looking for. They do not mark out private utilities, but 350 - > at least it gets you a starting point. I think this is probably 351 - > the one comment that I would make that I see the least 352 - > completed in construction with all the people I work with, 353 - > again going back to the due diligence process, once you have 354 - > a drawing that you think is going to be the drawing and the 355 - > foundations that you need to build and the structure you need 356 - > to build, it is best to go out maybe a week prior with a 357 - > skeleton type crew to actually go and do an informal layout, 358 - > and I'm not saying it needs to be survey grade, but it needs to 359 - > go and say, okay, hey, I know I'm going to be drilling a 360 - > foundation in this area, what what obstructions do I actually 361 - > have?

362 - > And you may laugh because I'm talking about, or you may laugh 363 - > at me for what that comment is, because it seems like common 364 - > sense, but even when we put these on plans, when we actually 365 - > go out in the field, they're almost - I'd say almost every 366 - > time there's a curb line, or there's a stepped foundation, 367 - > stepped parking lot, or there's storm sewers, or there's water 368 - > lines, or things that we somehow were not relayed in the field, 369 - > are not relayed into the office when we're doing the initial 370 - > design, and just doing that saves when you deploy having so 371 - > many people sitting around looking at you, asking what to 372 - > do, and that's probably like the one most valuable point I can 373 - > put out for any kind of construction project, is start 374 - > slow and then go from there.

375 - > Kyle Sinclair: Yeah, and we've, we've had quite a bit of, I 376 - > would say, a diverse portfolio of designing foundation cages 377 - > for all sorts of applications, you know, some not even in the 378 - > solar industry, so we've taken a lot of those lessons learned 379 - > from designing foundations for antenna structures, you know, 380 - > satellite tracking systems, and we've been able to apply a lot 381 - > of that to the solar industry with these larger carport 382 - > formats, so it's really critical that when something does happen 383 - > in the field, which it does every time, you know that you 384 - > have those plan B's, you know, and a lot of the.

PowerPoint 385 - > groups that I've worked with in the past, they do a good job at 386 - > that, of saying, "Hey, okay, here's plan B, here's plan C, 387 - > here's all your different foundation designs. Where I've 388 - > found in the industry where that real gap is, is that okay, now 389 - > these have to be reviewed and added to the draw package and 390 - > restamped, and then the materials then will be modified 391 - > and have to get to the site, so the installation can stay in 392 - > sequence, and that's a lot of the gripes and complaints that 393 - > we hear out in the field, you know, from installers working 394 - > with with other groups, so what we really tried to do is focus 395 - > and streamline that process, where you know Matt mentioned 396 - > he's very reactive to those situations, he's ready to take 397 - > those calls, he's ready to review and provide an option.

398 - > And then on the Sinclair side, we're ready to make those 399 - > adjustments on the manufacturing and deploy updated cages out 400 - > quickly to keep the installers on schedule. 401 - > Tim Montague: The Clean Power Hour is brought to you by CPS 402 - > America, maker of North America's number one three-phase 403 - > string inverter, with over 10 gigawatts shipped in the US. The 404 - > CPS product lineup includes string inverters ranging from 25 405 - > kw to 350 kw.

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com or call 855-584-7168 to find out 412 - > more. All right, let's move on to part three, where the money 413 - > is won and lost, because two things on our materials about 414 - > this show were pricing and steel, and I want to make good 415 - > on both. So, Kyle, start with soil. You've told me to budget 416 - > for the worst case on geotech for an EPC pricing a bid.

What 417 - > does that actually mean in dollars, and how do you price 418 - > for foundation variability without either getting burned on 419 - > pricing yourself or pricing yourself out of a job, it really 420 - > is a double bind. 421 - > Kyle Sinclair: Yeah, it is a balancing act, but I think it's 422 - > really important to provide that visibility into what those 423 - > worst-case costs could be per foundation. That geotechnical 424 - > report provides a lot of good information, but you never know 425 - > really what you're going to hit underground, and so when, for 426 - > example, when drilling through Michigan clay with no 427 - > obstructions, we can anticipate paying $800 per drilled hole, 428 - > but if we hit hard shale at four to six feet deep, which is very 429 - > common in southern Michigan, that price can jump up to $2,500 430 - > per hole, that adds up quickly on a half a megawatt project 431 - > site, where the drillers have to switch to rock drilling with 432 - > carbide cutters and hook up water lines.

This can easily add 433 - > 60k to the equation, and that's a 12 cent per watt flex, you 434 - > know. So it's, it's just important that that the EPCs 435 - > have visibility into those worst-case scenarios, so they 436 - > don't put themselves in a position. Do we think, "Hey, 437 - > we're going to the site, and we think every hole is probably 438 - > going to require those, those updated costs? Very unlikely, 439 - > but you should have some buffer in a percentage based on that 440 - > geotech report that that gives you a realistic target to chase, 441 - > so having those secondary foundation options is critical, 442 - > and in some circumstances too.

443 - > When you hit high water tables, you know, experience soils that 444 - > are too soft, you know, we have to switch to those spread 445 - > footers designs, and those cages are more expensive, and the 446 - > installers may need to rent additional equipment for 447 - > excavating, and that surface area, you know, this leads to 448 - > more dirt being hauled off the site and has a compounding 449 - > effect with labor time, so you know, just providing that 450 - > visibility is so important.

You mentioned, you know, not pricing 451 - > yourself out of the job in your question, and to be honest, 452 - > sometimes you know pricing ourselves out of the job can be 453 - > intentional on the manufacturer and installer side, you know 454 - > that some of these EPCs want manufacturers to sign contracts 455 - > with delivery deadlines, but we can't even start engineering 456 - > because they haven't selected a solar panel or they want to 457 - > negotiate flexible payment terms over a nine month project 458 - > timeline, and you know my company name is Sinclair Designs 459 - > and Engineering, not Sinclair Community Credit.

Union, so we 460 - > avoid assisting the developers with financing these projects, 461 - > because that's not what we're built to do as manufacturers. So 462 - > we really just come in, you know, vetting these partners, 463 - > you know, we're not going in to sell these. I've never been a 464 - > big fan of selling carports, you know. I'm a true believer that 465 - > there shouldn't be commissions tied to these types of projects, 466 - > because there's already so many variables, and moreover, you 467 - > have a lot of sales reps in the industry that don't have that 468 - > technical expertise or don't really add a lot of value to 469 - > that project development, so I really encourage you, know, the 470 - > folks that are listening in, you know, to do your homework.

Who 471 - > are you having the discussions with about your carport project 472 - > development? Are you speaking, you know, with engineers, and 473 - > are they focused on risk mitigation, or, you know, are 474 - > you relying on someone with a high school diploma who's 475 - > throwing 20% of markup onto the project just because they 476 - > answered the phone that day, so we hear a lot of those gripes 477 - > and complaints from out in the field from other solutions, and 478 - > that's that's something that we're really focused on solving, 479 - > Tim Montague: we're getting some good questions in the Q&A, I 480 - > would encourage the attendees to put your questions in the Q&A, 481 - > and we'll get to as many of those as we can.

When you know 482 - > you think about EPC, and this is for all of you panelists, 483 - > engineering, procurement, and construction, how does how does 484 - > pricing a job break down? It seems to me that there's a lot 485 - > of uncertainty on the front end and less so on procurement and 486 - > construction, but Matt and James talk about this EPC, and and 487 - > where are the prices for a project more firm than others? 488 - > James Strizki: I'll chime in on that, and you know, a lot of 489 - > times when we're selling, then EPC, well, I guess it depends on 490 - > which entity we're ultimately dealing with, and let me kind of 491 - > clear, clear that up, I guess a little bit, when we work with 492 - > customers, we work with customers that usually can 493 - > either sell to an end user to somebody else after that, and 494 - > when it's that case, we don't necessarily know what their 495 - > budget is, or how, what you know, what their project scope 496 - > and what they're selling to their customer.

We have a 497 - > foundation, or we have a carport scope of, they consider us just, 498 - > you know, racking, it's enveloped into racking, you 499 - > know, obviously you'd have engineering design racking, you 500 - > have the electrical side, you have the interconnect side, you 501 - > have the equipment for the solar panels, so we're filled into 502 - > that little envelope. In other cases, if we're dealing with 503 - > full EPCs that are owning the projects, that's when it's a 504 - > little bit easier, where you know we have the line of 505 - > communication with who we're working with are saying, hey, 506 - > based on all of the information that you've given us, you know, 507 - > here's what we think could happen, and this is again, like, 508 - > I can't stress enough that it really starts with the 509 - > foundations, the foundations of any project I've ever worked on, 510 - > whether it's carports, ground mounts, they are, you know, the 511 - > make or break of how the rest of your project is going to go, so 512 - > what we try to relate to the, to you know, our customer, who's 513 - > the next person in line, of whether they're selling it or 514 - > not, is that here's what we think we could come up against, 515 - > and how do you want to handle it?

Now, by that, I mean we have 516 - > some customers that go, we can't, no, we only can take a 517 - > full all in price, so they'll tell us, and they'll say, "You 518 - > need to just tell me you need to give me a price that you can get 519 - > this done, because I cannot go back to my customer and ask for 520 - > more money or do anything else. 521 - > So, in that case, it comes really difficult, where myself, 522 - > Matt, Kyle, we're all looking at the project and saying, okay, 523 - > here's what I think it looks like, here's what I think I 524 - > could be up against, here's what I'm predicting the problems to 525 - > be, and then I need to have enough of a contingency to be 526 - > able to do all this work, not lose money, and still tell the 527 - > customer that, hey, I gave you this price, and this is the 528 - > all-in price, and I can do it, and that's the way it's going to 529 - > be, and I've had jobs, a lot of our jobs recently, that's what 530 - > they are.

Where we, we went out, they said, "Just give me the 531 - > price, but don't, don't come back to me again, like you need 532 - > to give me a price to get it done. We went out, we thought we 533 - > were going to be able to drill foundations, we start drilling, 534 - > the holes start collapsing. We then have to get temporary 535 - > casings installed, it pushes you back a couple days, but we 536 - > didn't go back to the customer. 537 - > There wasn't any of being able to do that, and contrary to 538 - > that, we have customers that say, "Hey, you know, we are 539 - > value engineering this, where you know if there are problems, 540 - > we understand we don't want you to go and kill us on this, but 541 - > we want to do whatever needs to be done that's right, but.

542 - > You know, we'll share the, we'll share in the headache of a rough 543 - > foundation, and normally when we come across that, we vary from 544 - > our side, we're very transparent, we say no one 545 - > wanted to have this, but if it's rock drilling, or we need to 546 - > bring an auger, or we need to bring out hydro vac, which we've 547 - > used, you know, it's xyz price, 3000 for this, couple 1000 for 548 - > this, a lot of times we just show the cost and say, hey, it's 549 - > this plus our guys, and you know, we're trying to get 550 - > through this, so it being able to be on the same team, not only 551 - > with Kyle and Matt, but with whoever we're working with, is 552 - > really paramount, and it's managing expectations and 553 - > managing the expectations of what things we can be up 554 - > against, and how it's going to be financially covered, because 555 - > unfortunately I've learned this from the hard way, that as much 556 - > as you don't like having to have conversations about things 557 - > costing more money up front, it's really, really, really bad 558 - > to try to have them after you're already into it, and you know, 559 - > we've learned from that, and unfortunately, sometimes you 560 - > know, we've taken just losses on saying, hey, like, you know, 561 - > we're going to get this done, and we didn't see this coming, 562 - > but we want to get it done, and we want to have happy customers, 563 - > and happy partnerships, and long-lasting partnerships, then 564 - > you know, make a couple dollars on one job, 565 - > Tim Montague: if, if our industry could avoid one 566 - > problem.

What would the three of you identify as one problem to 567 - > avoid? Matt, Kyle, James. 568 - > James Strizki: The second, you know, part of this that's 569 - > probably not something that's talked about much, but is reason 570 - > that myself and our company does what we do, is that me, as an 571 - > engineer, myself, like I take pride in saying, if I don't like 572 - > giving answers on the fly, that if I don't know the answer on 573 - > the fly, I'm not going to give it to you, even if that's 574 - > something that you're not going to like.

I am going to say, hey, 575 - > you know, I have many, many people since I've been doing 576 - > this for, you know, I guess 2023 24 years, that I will talk to 577 - > the people that probably know more about that specific, 578 - > specific facet of whatever we're talking about, but, but the 579 - > point I'm getting at is that in some cases, you know, maybe 580 - > don't take on more than you think you should. By that, I 581 - > mean we've sold projects to people that believe they can 582 - > build these things, and we had customers initially when we were 583 - > first starting getting into carports, you know, probably 584 - > about 10 years ago or eight years ago, that we're like, 585 - > yeah, we can build it, we know how to build it, we, you know, 586 - > we feel very, very confident.

587 - > Said, okay, so you know, you sell the system, they go and 588 - > build it, you engineer it well. 589 - > When things are not built correctly, they don't 590 - > necessarily rear their ugly head right away. What ends up 591 - > happening is a year, a two years, maybe even a little bit 592 - > later. Usually, it's probably within a year.

That's when you 593 - > start seeing the problems, and some of the problems that we've 594 - > seen when holes aren't drilled correctly and casings are placed 595 - > and they don't have fill properly placed behind them, 596 - > that's when you get consolidation over time, later, 597 - > or even some undermining. So, I've seen undermined parking 598 - > lots where all of the fill under the parking lots kind of 599 - > collapsed. I've seen some issues where things were added after 600 - > the fact with electrical conduits that shouldn't have 601 - > been done, so it's, it's the experience that you're going to 602 - > get out of a out of a carport structure, and the longevity, 603 - > and you know, not having the issues is doing it right with 604 - > someone that knows how to do it, you know, and working with 605 - > people that know what they're doing versus trying to just go 606 - > do it the first time.

607 - > Tim Montague: Well, said Matt Kyle. 608 - > Matt Boyce: I think I could just a little piggyback a little bit 609 - > on what James said. So, my background before I traded in my 610 - > boots for a calculator was I have poured 100,000 yards of 611 - > concrete, we've done some pretty heavy construction, and you 612 - > know, if, if someone is new to this, then a lot of new people 613 - > would have a tendency to be a little bit lower on every single 614 - > step than they should be, and for instance, like if you, if 615 - > someone tells you that you need eight people out there on the 616 - > site, then they send out six, and if someone says that you 617 - > need a large material handler, then somebody will send out a 618 - > backhoe, or you know, if you need, like, a carpenter or a 619 - > group of carpenters, a crew, or mill rights to set your anchor 620 - > bolt cages so that they don't move when you're pouring, or you 621 - > know, you have the right crane or material handler to set the 622 - > columns and make sure everything's plugged.

Com, and 623 - > you know it's just what we think we could do it with this, we 624 - > think we could do it with this, and this isn't like, you know, 625 - > when the economy is booming, everybody thinks that they can 626 - > be a building inspector, that it's this is this is heavy 627 - > construction, and and it has to be done right, because 628 - > everything everything piles on afterwards, so you can't, you 629 - > can't do this halfway. It has to be done right. And from where I 630 - > grew up, a lot of people might have an issue with this, but 631 - > from where I grew up, that meant you get a union foundation 632 - > contractor or union iron workers or union electricians, because 633 - > in the area that I grew up in, St.

Louis, Missouri, unions were 634 - > highly reputable, and they did amazing, impeccable work. Okay, 635 - > that may not be the case everywhere. Okay, and it may not 636 - > be the case today, but back then, but that's the level of 637 - > quality that needs to happen with this, because when you get 638 - > to the end of it, you know, at the end of all the heavy 639 - > construction, you have to put solar panels to create a roof 640 - > for this, and they have to fit, and you can't be jockeying them 641 - > around, and you can't, everything has to fit, so 642 - > everything has to go off of, so you, you can't go out thinking, 643 - > oh, I can do this, and the other thing is, is that if you're a 644 - > purchaser of construction, either a developer, EPC, just a 645 - > property owner, or whatever, if you're a purchaser of this 646 - > construction, you have to be able to say I don't know.

You 647 - > have to know when you don't know something, and then rely on the 648 - > experts, the people in this room, to be able to walk you 649 - > through it, because you trusted them enough to call them ahead 650 - > of time. You got to trust them with the answers, they're not 651 - > going to lead you astray. We're all going to make our money. No, 652 - > we're not.

Nobody's going to hit a home run off of your job, so 653 - > you know we're all here because at the end of the day, Kyle 654 - > wants to take a picture of your installation, add it to his 655 - > wall, saying we did that, and everybody wants to walk away 656 - > from a job that they can be proud of, so the purchaser of 657 - > construction, just because you built a house or flipped a house 658 - > or whatever, does not necessarily mean that you're 659 - > ready to do this, so doesn't mean you can't, it means rely on 660 - > the people that do know.

661 - > Tim Montague: Sure, 662 - > Kyle Sinclair: I did want to answer your question, just 663 - > because it's real fast. On you know, if I could eliminate a 664 - > mistake from the industry, my answer was ground mount 665 - > trackers, so I wish we could just get rid of them as a joke. 666 - > Obviously, I'm biased towards fixed tilt, but you know one 667 - > thing that I think there is a big gap in the industry is 668 - > having long term maintenance clearly outlined, you know, no 669 - > matter what your system is, if it's fixed tilt ground mount, 670 - > fixed tilt carports, you know, or or tracking system, so make 671 - > sure that those long term maintenance is clearly outlined 672 - > in that you have a plan on that for the future.

673 - > Tim Montague: All right. Well, I'm going to start with a 674 - > question from Peter. What about existing structures here in the 675 - > southwest Tucson area? There are already so many carports 676 - > existing for shade, it seems like they would be ideal for 677 - > installations.

Can you repurpose an existing carport for a solar 678 - > carport, 679 - > Matt Boyce: potentially you can, you know, depending on what the 680 - > original use of that structure was. If it was just a shade 681 - > structure, then traditionally those are either designed to the 682 - > lowest possible standard in the building code or none at all, so 683 - > you do have to do a due diligence, because anytime you 684 - > walk up to an existing structure, there's always the 685 - > thought, especially in my mind, did they even get a permit for 686 - > this, because there are some structures that you see the 687 - > answer is obviously yes, and some is no, they absolutely did 688 - > not.

So the other thing is, is that we're changing the use of 689 - > that structure now, and most importantly, out of anybody in 690 - > this room, I have to put my stamp on it, so it better be 691 - > right, because I will not put my stamp on it if it's not, so we 692 - > won't, we won't compromise on any of that, because if I seal 693 - > something, that means I say that it's safe, and it's safe 694 - > forever, and I will not take liability for a structure that. 695 - > Someone built that that I don't necessarily trust.

Now that 696 - > being said, if it does look good, and we could do a little 697 - > bit of testing, like find out what the depth of the foundation 698 - > is, and whatever else, you know, we would definitely be open to 699 - > doing that, so we wouldn't rule that out just by rote, because 700 - > you know we didn't design the structure, so chances are 701 - > though, and if a structure is not specifically designed for 702 - > this, it's probably not going to be good enough for this.

703 - > Tim Montague: Do you guys see a big difference in different 704 - > regions of the country, like the Northeast or the Southeast or 705 - > the Midwest or the Southwest, in terms of the amount or the 706 - > importance of geotech. 707 - > Matt Boyce: Again, that one's me. I won't do a project without 708 - > a geotech. 709 - > James Strizki: I'll chime in on that too, Matt.

Like the geotech 710 - > is going to give you the initial kind of background of what 711 - > you're looking at, of what you're seeing now. I would say 712 - > out of many, many times it could say it's clay soil that is 713 - > supposed to be cohesive, and many times I've gone there and 714 - > it is not so. As far as the geotech goes, from the 715 - > engineering standpoint, yes, 100% can be needed from the 716 - > construction standpoint of what are you going to run into when 717 - > you build it.

It's very, very difficult, difficult in kind of 718 - > knowing what you're going to be up against. A lot of times what 719 - > I rely on is once I know where the project is, and you know, 720 - > for all over the country, I will call, I will do all my due 721 - > diligence. Again, I really stress the three items, I'll go 722 - > on web soil GIS software. I will type in geotech for the for the 723 - > area, and just look through any geotechs I can find.

I'll look 724 - > for, I'll go on Google Maps and take a look at the street view 725 - > and see if I see outcroppings or see if I see any areas where 726 - > there's construction, and they're going, you know, even 727 - > just driving around, like, you know, going through Google Maps, 728 - > you can see if there's a site that's being built, and you can 729 - > kind of see what the soil looks like when they dig it. Then, 730 - > after that, as the project kind of evolves or gets closer to 731 - > actually starting, I will call numerous drilling companies that 732 - > are in the area.

They are obviously usually worth a wealth 733 - > of knowledge, like that. They're the easiest ones to go to, but 734 - > with that said, when I call them, you know, I usually make 735 - > sure I'm calling them when I have a real project, like no one 736 - > wants to just have their time wasted, so they're the ones that 737 - > will tell you, "Hey, I've drilled in this area, here's 738 - > what we're looking to go up against, and that's where you 739 - > really can make sure you know what you think you're going to 740 - > have to be prepared with, like type three casings, you're going 741 - > to hit rock, you know, whatever the cases are, and they're 742 - > really the best people to kind of reach out to and know what, 743 - > what they think they're going to expect, and they could even give 744 - > you some preliminary numbers, just saying, hey, we've drilled 745 - > holes in that area, you know, you could probably get this far 746 - > down in about this many time, expect this many holes per day, 747 - > Kyle Sinclair: yeah, in Tim, you know, 90% of the time it's not a 748 - > new geotech, right?

The infrastructure is already there, 749 - > you know, the building likely has a geotech report from when 750 - > the structure was built within the last, you know, 20 or 30 751 - > year window, so we're able to utilize that specific data for 752 - > these jobs. The other thing is, is a lot of the jobs that we 753 - > partner on are municipal projects that have some type of 754 - > state grant funding tied to it, and they require geotech 755 - > analysis on all of those jobs.

756 - > Tim Montague: You know, I'm left with a big question mark about 757 - > contingency when you're pricing a project, and I wonder if, if 758 - > you guys could break down the big buckets for how, how to 759 - > budget properly for a project. 760 - > Obviously, dialog with companies like Sinclair and Gen Mounts is 761 - > critical on the front end, and I think that has come through loud 762 - > and clear, but can you speak to how to think about approaching 763 - > pricing, and do, and just speak in rules of thumb, you know, one 764 - > of my rules of thumb is you can expect to spend 2x on a price 765 - > per watt, or 3x sometimes on a price per watt on a carport, and 766 - > that's the number one deal killer.

Everyone wants a carport 767 - > in their parking lot, but when it comes to affordability, if 768 - > you can do rooftop solar, that's going to be much more 769 - > affordable. But how do you guys see this? 770 - > Kyle Sinclair: I can talk a little bit about the steel side, 771 - > you know, I'll let kind of, I think James will have better 772 - > visibility into total project costing, but we've been pretty 773 - > good on the steel side with trying to lock in a fixed rate 774 - > for those customers, you know, with material deposit money, 775 - > knowing that, hey, this could, this could be a year.

Or before 776 - > they get a permit approval and building approval, and they're 777 - > already dialed in, so we normally have, if your project 778 - > is less than two megawatts, we likely have the raw materials 779 - > already in stock or in the pipeline, so we're very 780 - > comfortable with, hey, let's let's focus on fixing your cost 781 - > on the structural components, and then they can pivot to 782 - > working with Matt and James on adding buffer and analyzing the 783 - > costs based on the foundation requirements.

Hey 784 - > Tim Montague: guys, are you a residential solar installer 785 - > doing light commercial, but wanting to scale into large CNI 786 - > solar. I'm Tim Montague. I've developed over 150 megawatts of 787 - > commercial solar, and I've solved the problem that you're 788 - > having. You don't know what tools and technologies you need 789 - > in order to successfully close 100 kw to megawatt scale 790 - > projects.

I've developed a commercial solar accelerator to 791 - > help installers exactly like you. Just go to Clean Power 792 - > hour.com click on strategy, and book a call today. It's totally 793 - > free with no obligation.

Thanks for being a listener. I really 794 - > appreciate you listening to the pod. And I'm Tim Montague. Let's 795 - > grow solar and storage.

Go to Clean Power Hour and click 796 - > strategy today. Thanks so much. 797 - > Well, unfortunately, we're out of time, and this was a really 798 - > great conversation. I want to thank the panelists, Kyle, 799 - > James, and Matt, for making time for us today.

Tell a friend 800 - > about the show. Check all of our content out at Clean Power 801 - > hour.com And I would love it if our panelists would just let our 802 - > audience know how they can best reach you. 803 - > Kyle Sinclair: Yeah, we're getting busy this summer, but 804 - > shoot me an email, that's the best way to contact me, it's 805 - > Kyle at Sinclair designs.

net 806 - > Matt Boyce: Although I would like my answer to be, you could 807 - > reach me by emailing Kyle at Kyle Sinclair, but you can reach 808 - > me at Matt Boyce, M A T T B O Y C e3 nine@gmail.com I I will 809 - > caution you that I, this is a, this is a team, and I don't have 810 - > a tremendous amount of capacity outside of this team for any new 811 - > work because of all of my client commitments. So, you can still, 812 - > you can still email me if you got a really great job, I might 813 - > be interested in looking at it.

814 - > Tim Montague: And James Triskey, 815 - > James Strizki: for me you can reach me at James J A M E S at 816 - > Genmounts, G E N M O U N Ts.com You can also look at 817 - > www.genmounts.com or www.

rehsolar.com one the rh 818 - > already. Solar has been mostly what we've been doing with the 819 - > actual construction side of things. The other side is 820 - > racking.

If you guys need solar racking help, we can help you 821 - > out with that. 822 - > Tim Montague: And with that, I want to say, thank you for 823 - > joining us, everyone. It's been great to have you for Carport 824 - > Solar Done Right. I'm Tim Montague.

Let's grow solar and 825 - > storage. Take care, everyone. 826 - > The Clean Power Hour is brought to you by CPS America, maker of 827 - > North America's number one three-phase string inverter, 828 - > with over 10 gigawatts shipped in the US. The CPS product 829 - > lineup includes string inverters ranging from 25 kw to 350 kw.

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com or call 855-584-7168 to find out 836 - > more.