'We had to understand what drives us' - The thinking behind Líbere's UK expansion

Speaker A: Join the UK hospitality industry's leading voices on UM 3rd of November 2026 for the inaugural Hotel Owner Conference hosted by Hotel Owner Magazine at Prince Philip House. This flagship event brings together hoteliers, operators, developers and industry experts for a full day of insight, debate and high value networking. Attendees can expect thought provoking panel discussions, expert keynote speakers and valuable opportunities to connect with peers, suppliers and decision makers from across the Whether you're an owner, operator, investor or hospitality professional, the Hotel Owner Conference offers an essential forum to gain fresh perspectives, discover new opportunities and build meaningful industry connections. To find out more, visit hotelownerconference.co.uk today. Welcome to Checking In, a weekly podcast from hotel owner, the UK's trusted source of hotel news and analysis. Each week we meet with seasoned hoteliers, industry insiders and hospitality entrepreneurs to share the real stories, lessons and ideas behind what makes great hospitality work. We'll um, unpack the decisions behind the success stories, the mistakes that shaped um, them and what you can learn from their experience. If you like the podcast, make sure to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and for more information, visit hotelowner.co.uk or drop us a line at podcastotelowner.co.uk. hi, I'm Heather, host of this episode where we're joined by John Harrington, head of Business Development UK and Ireland at Liberay Hospitality Group. John spoke about his role in launching the company's UK presence from the ground up. The deciding factors behind what makes a property the right fit for Liberay, how the company's own technology led operating model has allowed for the highest levels of automation and agility, and how digital innovation can enhance rather than replace great guest service. Hi John, welcome to Checking in and many thanks for joining us.

Speaker B: Hi, thank you for having me. Uh, it's been a pleasure to come on your call.

Speaker A: Wonderful. So, to get us started, I wonder if you could tell us what first brought you to hospitality and perhaps take us through your, your career journey in earlier roles prior to today.

Speaker B: Okay. Um, my background has been commercial and uh, residential new build sales. So I've been embedded in bricks and mortar for a very long time. Uh, and when I had the opportunity a, uh, good 12, 13 years ago to change my role and go from being the buyer to the seller or vice versa I should say. Um, we had um, an opportunity arose whereby I could join a hospitality company and become the acquisitions of that. So I changed roles from selling properties, buying properties, so to say. And that was a new experience to me and that was one of the the points that really attracted me to the role was to get into, into the opportunities to establish a hotel chain or to establish a service department group or the likes thereof. And that opportunity arose in January 2014. Um, having come from the sales background, as I said in sales management background, I was given the opportunity to join a company which I did. Uh, they are or were known as Deep Blue Apartments and they've morphed multiple times from Deep Blue Apartments into uh, Flying Butler and then lastly into Viridian Apartments. So they've had three name changes over the intervening period. So what happened was the gentleman approached me and said uh, I need you to go out into the marketplace and tap into your network which I have and build our portfolio from 100 units to 250 within a year. And fortunately with the context that I'd built through my sales positions and that, and as you could imagine you would know you'd have to deal with agencies, you'd have to deal with landlords, you'd have to deal with investors and the likes thereof to build a portfolio. And that was um, to me mana from heaven when I became the buyer and the seller. And that's exactly what attracted me to the role, the diversity of the role. Um, and getting back into London after being away for many years back in 2014 gave me the opportunity to expand my, my knowledge of London itself because we were very London concentric at that moment in time. And then of course the wider in the UK as well. You know, having traveled here before, having lived here before, uh, and you clearly understand by my accent that I am a South African. But I had the opportunity to expand my knowledge of the London market, of the UK market by virtue of the fact that I would go and see landlords or agencies or, or brokers or whatever the case might be across various parts of the country. And that what really attracted me to this, um, uh, there are a small sabbatical in between where I went back into sales and marketing. I was the senior group sales manager for a company called A2 Dominion, which is a very large housing association, one of the G15 in London. Um, and I spent roughly six years with them managing 16 sites over the south, uh, west and London, Greater London itself. But when the time came and I was called back into the hospitality trade, I thought yep, that's what I enjoy doing. I've slugged myself to death through Covid trying to make everything happen sales wise. And uh, I came back into the role um, with uh, a uh, uh, back to Viridian. They approached me it was my second journey back to them. And then, uh, they decided to go into co living which sort of made my role largely redundant. Um, I was then introduced to Libre, which is exciting. Uh, I met a guy called Anton, uh, my CEO, Anton Delarika. And we sat down, we had a coffee and I think within 10 minutes we decided we liked each other. And within 20 minutes we had already spoken and sung off the same hymn page. Which is really exciting. You know, where we want to go, what we want to do. My career or my desires aligned with their desires. And that was really the step that or the final nail in the coffin for me to say, yep, I'm going back into hospitality and uh, I'm excited about the future.

Speaker A: Fantastic. What a journey. And I suppose I'm curious, ah, about that, the shift from, like you say, selling into acquisitions. And how did your background in selling help influence, um, the role you have today and what knowledge were you able to bring from having gained that perspective? Um, I know like you say, you obviously built up a good solid network, but what were some of the other influences that helped in that case?

Speaker B: Certainly to understand, um, being the seller, we had to understand what drives us as, as landlords. Because when, when, when I remember I didn't sell secondhand property, I only sell new, new developments. So uh, you know, these would be off plan. So I've sat in umpteens, uh, you know, sales and marketing, uh, and um, of course, um, business development meetings, you know, construction, design, et cetera. So that exposed me to how things were built effectively, better, uh, poorly, whatever the case might be, and gave me the insight over and above all of the knowledge that I gained in contracts from that perspective, uh, legals, uh, what, you know, what, what, what were the buttons that we had to push to make sure that we could do the deal as the sellers. So that's given me the insight into being an acquisitions, acquisitions, uh, manager, if you would like to call it as such. What drives the, the ADR and the RevPAR on the, uh, let's call it on the hotel side, but equally what drives the numbers, um, for the seller or the landlord? That gave me the insight. Whereas a lot of guys, or people, I should say not guys, um, would possibly only have worked on acquisitions or only on sales, I' able to morph the two together. So when I sit with the landlord and he starts talking about the numbers that he has to meet and the units he has to meet and, and the levels he has to hit, I get that, you understand. So I, having been A seller myself. Inverted commas. Or a landlord myself. Inverted commas. So I get that. I can then take that away and try and model our, uh, proposition, uh, or you know, to, to the gentleman or the lady concerned along those lines, taking cognizance of what they required and what we require and thereby try and marry the two and get us aligned very quickly. And of course, if you speak bricks and mortar to a land landlord or investor, a developer, you speak in their language. Yeah, you know, that's the important thing. They connect very quickly with you at that point. They realize, you know, what you're talking about when it comes to developing and what their costs are and what their repayment costs are, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to say, I imagine it lends itself to quite authentic relationships.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I'm not only seeing it from Libre's point of view or Viridian's point of view or Flying Butler, whichever one of the companies I'm talking about, they can see that I'm seeing it from their point of view as well. And what makes their numbers tick, you know, and, and, and, and makes their lenders invariably there's a lender involved. Yeah, yeah. We actually have certain criteria met and I get that and I get it from an early stage. So this is going to horrify you when you hear that, you know, I could research 500 properties and probably only put 25 forward because there's so many factors where things will go wrong. But it's important to let, uh, as always said in my training to my teams and that I'd rather have a no, no answer quickly than a maybe answer that keeps me hanging on. Yeah, I could go back to develop and say for the following reasons we can't make this work. But that's not to say we can't work in the future.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It seems that that efficiency, I suppose is so crucial.

Speaker B: And transparency.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And not keeping the main on thinking they have a deal with you or may have a deal with you when clearly things aren't going that way.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: We, uh, discussed the core, the core elements around the alignment of the proposition that is put on the table and our requirements. We discussed that and at that early stage I can say these are the reasons it can't work. I'm currently busy with one in Edinburgh with exactly the same situation. He's gone back to his lenders with our proposition and the transparency of why I can't do what he wants me to do. Uh, and hopefully. And that he doesn't have to do that, but he's doing that because he's been on the customer journey. On the customer English, particular on the customer journey with me through trying to get this deal from a. An idea into a reality.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's brilliant. And. And I suppose before we get on to, um, you know, today at Libre, looking back at your journey again, what were some other standout lessons that have really stuck with you along the way? When you, we. When you do look back at these, at these roles you've held and the journey and development that you've been through?

Speaker B: The standout things, um, to me was always about the personality of the attitude. So across my career, um, I didn't start out as a senior sales manager. I started out as a salesman like people do in my industry. Um, so the journey was really, I came in at the bottom and I worked my way, I wouldn't say to the top, but I worked my way up the ladder. And that was, um, you know, from a young buck, if you want to call it that. Arrogant young buck. I know everything in the world. Can't teach me anything. To a compromising, experienced person that understands that, uh, there are two sides to every transaction. All right, so, uh, you've got to have a happy buyer and a happy seller and a happy intermediary, which is me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, the. So namely, I would say if I could pass anything on to people and just my experience was have the right attitude. And the right attitude would be in spite of. As opposed to. Because of. In spite of the challenges, we have overcome the situation. As opposed to. Because of the challenges, we can't overcome this. It's as simple as that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The other thing would be respect and value of my own work, my colleagues, the landlords or the people I'm dealing with outside of my circle. Uh, and especially so if you have staff. So if you don't mind me talking about staff in between as well. Especially so if you have staff, you know, the respect and value. Um, I had multiple. Multiple sites, As I said, 16 sites. I couldn't get to them all every week. Ah. In fact, some of them I got to every second month. But it was the respect and the fact that I valued these people and allowed them to grow and I gave them opportunities to grow. Um, that kept everybody on board and supported me through thick and thin. You know, those are the takeaways would be the attitude that you approach your daily life in spite of, as opposed to. Because of, uh, and these are the. So I've come Away with, not with riches in, in terms of xyz, more so of experience and understanding and all of those things. Help me negotiate today with landlords, bigger landlords, way bigger than we are probably, you know, with the multiple properties they have got and the millions, you know, they have in the banks, etc. Etc. Uh, on an equal footing because it's. I bring those core values to the table which only time and experience can teach you.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. Um, and I was going to say there's incredibly valuable life lessons beyond just one's career.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Uh, and in fact, uh, if I may just on a footnote there, say if you can go back and do multiple, uh, multiple transactions or deals or whatever we want to call it with the same landlord, you're clearly doing something right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, you're clearly building a relationship and sometimes, I know I rephrase it. I'll say many times I'm not the best deal on the table, but I'm the most solid, sound, transparent deal on the table. You know, and, and, and those are the, those are important because those build your own brand, your own credibility amongst your peers, amongst you know, people that have heard of you or whatever the case might be. So it's very important.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, absolutely. It's, I suppose that building of respect and I'm sure it pays its dividends like, like you say.

Speaker B: Oh absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker A: And so on to present day. Can you tell us more about your, your role and responsibilities at uh, Libre? And perhaps for listeners who may not know, tell us more about, about the group itself.

Speaker B: Okay, so my role is um, is the acquisitions for Libre. So it's an all encompassing role. It's begins from sourcing, identifying and um, then you know, negotiating, networking, et cetera, to get to a certain point of at least being at the table, uh, of multiple pieces of people. As well as you could imagine, there's many, many players in the market. Uh, and then you know, once you've gotten beyond that point, uh, to ensure that it's a fair deal is negotiated. I deal with our uh, operations teams, our architectural teams, our legal teams, uh, my, I have to manage up and I have to manage, you know, sideways and down, um, uh, and all, all the various players in the, in, in our business or in our, in our company, uh, in order to get to a point of where we can, you know, get a deal struck. So that is what I really do is purely out and out acquisitions, uh, and, and growing the brand as, as per. More placements, more opportunities, et cetera. With that we did start from a zero base in the UK as you can imagine. Um, so I'm the only pair of boots on the ground in um, uh, the UK and Ireland. Uh, and the brand building has then come from me to make sure that we have a good brand out there, we have a solid reputation, people you can deal with, people you can go to and who've got a great product. And that's the important thing at the end of all of that lovely stuff and holding hands and singing Kumbaya, you still have to hold a, have a great product. And that's the important part of this and that's what uh, brought me to Libre. So quick summing up of Libra Hospitality Group, it's a European um, operator. We operate in six countries at the moment, namely Spain where we, it's our home base. Very strong in Spain. Uh, they've been there since uh, I think we started up in 2019. Um, and we've been very strong in Spain and the majority of properties are in Spain at the moment. Of course we've naturally gone to our neighbor called Portugal because they're very close and from there branched into Italy, the United Kingdom, France and currently we're tapping into Germany at the moment. And I mustn't forget most recently we've also opened opportunities in Greece. Okay, so we, we fast becoming a pan European company. Looking at the obvious markets, you know the uh, Nordics will eventually come into play as well. You know, probably uh, the, the Eastern European areas and there's a multiple in between. You know you've got the lowlands of the Netherlands and Belgium etc. Etc. So but we are looking at these six at the moment and the biggest thing is uh, we don't expand at the rate others may because we trying to do it responsibly. I'm not saying they don't. So please don't, don't misunderstand me. I'm just saying from our perspective we don't have a um, big, big funds utilizing. We're a privately owned company. So we look after you know, the, the pence and the pounds and look after themselves. So yeah, absolutely. So we do it responsibly and we do it methodically and we do it very, very well researched before we take a property or enter a new market. That's important and that's the important part. So that, that sums up um, the, the Libre company in a nutshell. Um, and the most important thing I think I should say is in Libre and I'm sure others would probably mirror this we don't have a landlord, we have a partner. Because at the end of the day our success is their success and vice versa.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So we certainly utilize that. Yeah, I hope that covers that off fairly. As I said, I am stuck out in the wilderness. Uh, but, uh, I know a bit of my company and what we do. Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker A: Um, and I suppose just thinking about what you say about growing responsibly, does the nature of Libre, perhaps being a slightly smaller operation, does that sort of structure, a model, lend itself to making those more thoughtful choices and being, I suppose, um, more agile and very aware of the choices you're making when it comes to.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Um, the beauty of this company is, and I don't. Again, please, I, uh, only speak for Libre at this moment, so should anybody out there be listening from another operator, they may do the same. But I see this as a massive factor in my life right now. I could hold this interview, call my CEO, uh, and have a chat with him about something that's very important. Yes, it's as simple as that. And if need be, I can speak to the founder, uh, John Uriate, um, who is our founder, who's also part of the Propco that we have. We've got a Propco and a Manco. We're the Manco and of course the Propco and that John Uriate, if need be. I'd loathe to, you know, waste his time or something, but I, I could if I had to. Yeah, and that's the beauty of that. It's very flex, flexible, it's very agile. Uh, we can make decisions, um, within the boundaries of what we're trying to establish. Like every other company, we're trying to establish a brand that sort of conforms to our core values, that if need be, we could look at something outside of that and, and, and make a decision fairly quickly. And yes, it does. Being a smaller company, you don't have the red tape M that you sometimes get with the bureaucracy or the, uh, you know, uh, my jobs, it's me, jobsworth kind of attitude. Yeah. You know, I can't make a decision because I need ten other signatures. Uh, these decisions can be made fairly quickly, which is, which is important. And, and they don't necessarily always go my way, but they come quickly. And that means I can go back to the people as which I mentioned earlier and say to them, uh, this is a no, unfortunately, and for the following reasons.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, fantastic. Um, and it must be so exciting to be leading the charge in the uk, um, particularly when you're building the brand up I suppose from ground zero in this market. Um, so what is it about where do you identify the main opportunities for growth in the UK right now? Could you tell us more about your approach when it comes to, to building the brand here in this market?

Speaker B: Okay. Uh the first part of your question. Uh, where do I see the opportunities? Okay. So one of the modus operandi of the company is it's simple. We don't want to go to a place where we have to invent tourism.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Or bring people to it. That is sixth sense could go and open up outside of London and they would have a market because people would flood there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: For argument's sake. All right. For their well being and all that sort of stuff.

Speaker A: However.

Speaker B: So we, I focus on a market that's already established. Okay. In an area that's already established and that we tap into that. And the how we tap into that is by trying to provide better services, better um, better rates, better quality um, products, uh, a nicer uh, feel, a nicer customer journey and the likes thereof. So we, we would go into a fairly heavily traded area and explore that with great gusto. Before I would try and look at something in, in a seasonality area and I don't want to mention cities in, in the UK but you could imagine where for four months of the trade it's, it's crazy. And then for eight months of them, the rest of the, you know, the period it's, you can, everyone's looking at each other wondering where the next customer is going to come from.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So we try and avoid those. So yes we look at trading areas or traded areas. Uh and everyone says we look for the next best hotspot when it's already called the hotspot. You too late. So you need to get in there earlier. And how I do that is via my networks. I get given properties that are in its infancy, it's not even in planning yet. Uh but somebody is going to convert a office block to a. I don't want to mention cities names because I'll probably everybody scouring these areas. I don't want me doing that. So I um, look at an office conversion in a part of a city where I can see there's already tourism and equally as important with the part hotels which is one of the major players at the moment and as you know is the buzzword is um, obviously corporate, let's in the area. So you know if I'm looking at something in London, um, it's, it's fairly close to a high tourist area. It's within walking distance of a, a major city center area within London. Call it the City of London. Those, those are very important factors to me because I would then look at uh, providing the apartheid uh hotel system which can cater to both tourists and can take cater to both uh, and, and of course corporate lets and the corporate lets would need the comfort of the slightly bigger uh, uh apartment or studio so they can work from the studio as opposed to sitting on the bed trying to work on their lap in a hotel room uh and the like. So and and also have the access to a little kitchenette. It could be self sustainable for a couple of weeks, a month whatever the case might be. And um, of course the tourist would like the extra factor that he can come in with his family. Mum and dad have the, the main bedroom and the kids can sleep on the sleeper couch. M. You know. So to speak which might be difficult in traditional hotels. So that is the, the areas that I look at.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if I could ask you what was the second part of your question?

Speaker A: Um, I, I suppose just what your own approach is at this point in time when it comes to looking to, to build the brand in the uk. Um and, and how you I suppose best identify as well as location what properties are the right fit for for liberay.

Speaker B: So my brand building is um, unfortunate to have a fairly large brand in the industry uh with in respect of what I've done before. So it was quite easy. And, and uh the old saying of people M uh people conduct business with people and not companies. It's true. So if you build up a nice relationship with people um, you know the brand was easy. It was me going to them and realigning them with hey we're a new uh player on the block or a new kid on the block so to speak. And uh, this is where we are, this is what we do. Uh and if the people know you and know what you're about, they bought into me and what I represented a lot earlier than they may have. Of course you need to provide the covenants and the financials and the, this is and the that because the banks don't know me and don't care if they did, you know or the lenders I should say so you know that was equally as important. But the most uh, the easy part for me if I may say so with my own brand that I've built and my own circle of people that I know and they know and they know and so forth uh it was quite easy to say, hey, I represent Libre, I've checked them out, I'm working for them, I'm happy to be there. Let's do business. Yes, I will provide the requirements your lenders need. But I'm still, I'm still the same man you spoke to yesterday. Yeah, so to speak. So that was the, the, the easy part of that. What I identify for us as properties is again the property that can. Okay, taking a step back, Covid scared the hell out of everybody, as I'm sure we could imagine. Right. And everybody's got that in the back of the mind. I personally don't believe, uh, it would happen again in my lifetime. Hopefully not, but here we go. So that was the driver for the Airbnbs at the time because people moved in a lot of into these, let's call it away from hotels because hotels shut down, they had to stay somewhere. Uh, and I know a lot of the apartments with viridian and them were converted into hostels for or not hostels were converted into places for NHS and the likes thereof to house people. And that gave the, a lot of the people the idea of that. Hang on a minute. I could have a better travel experience than just a room. So that gave the people the experience of we could have a lot better stay than a room. Hence the birth, not the birth, hence the resurgence or the resurgence of apartheid hotels. Yes, that is my focus at the moment. It's apartheid aparthotels clearly, because we can slip easily between corporate lets and tourism and should we ever need to have slightly longer stays for whatever reason in the future, we have that ability to do so. So yeah, uh, the kind of properties I look at other than location are uh, apart hotels. Very importantly, um, in that particular thing is, is there a demand, as I've said, does the asset lend itself to our model? Does the landlord want to work with people like ourselves and the likes thereof? Because some landlords don't, they, they want ASTs, but they want to have a uh, 15 year lease and they say, well you can't have both, you know, and then operational efficiency governing that as well or closely behind that is what are the amenities in the area. I do the customer journey. I have a daughter, uh, she's mid-30s. I think to myself, if my daughter landed at Heathrow Airport pulling a travel bag behind her, uh, would she feel comfortable getting off at this station at 10 o' clock at night in a rainy winter's evening and walk the journey to the area, you know, uh, uh, uh, that's as equally as important to me as anything else. What is the customer journey like other amenities in the area? That is, I don't want to make food every night, I want to go out for a snack. It must be close by. I want to go out and have some fun. Must be close by. So these are the criteria over and above the four areas that I mentioned. Demand asset ownership and the operational efficiency is the customer journey, which encompasses everything else. And that is equally as important as the other four points. Because if any of those are not aligned to the property, we are not going to get guests.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I suppose it's, you know, all comes down to those, those lasting impressions. It takes one cognitive work that.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, uh, you could have a great place, but if, you know, God forbid, the, the person, the lady was accosted by somebody untoward on the 20 minute walk to the property from the station, you've lost all your goodwill.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, so you try and keep those to five minutes and you try and keep them in areas where there is activity or uh, lighting adequate and so forth. Not a dark side road, whatever the case may be. So, so one of the things I do is I get on the train and I take the journey as if it would be your good self. I get off at the station, not at 10 o' clock in a rainy night, forgive me, but I get off there with, with my blinkers off. I walk that walk. I then walk around the area and see what there is and, and, and look at, you know, what can differentiate this property to another property. And then if all those boxes are ticked in my mind, I proceed down the road to, to taking it further.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. So important to have that authentic connection to the guest experience.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Keeping in mind I'm a guest when I get on a plane, I go elsewhere and I'm a guest.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And unfortunately I find myself doing exactly that. Oh, this wasn't a very nice walk. I uh, don't want to be brash, but as a South African, we don't get threatened easily. But you know what I mean, we come to the up old place, you know. Yeah, yeah. Uh, uh, yeah, you know, uh, uh, um, I didn't feel comfortable and I'm sure um, a lady wouldn't feel comfortable and I always have to think along those lines of that and would somebody, you know, feel comfortable if I. Many a times I booked a place and looked great and the walk just destroyed it or the surrounding areas. I'd walk miles to go get a coffee or whatever the case might be.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Very important to see it from the point of view of the customer.

Speaker A: Yes, yeah, absolutely. To never lose sight of that. And I suppose thinking about the, you know, the flexibility of the apart hotel, ah, model like you say, and, and the fact it can offer so many things to the modern guest, do you think demand for apart hotels will continue growing at the same pace? Um, or perhaps was there a, I suppose, reactionary boost following Covid, like you say, how do you see that demand being sustained in the wider hospitality space?

Speaker B: I suppose, uh, I do firmly believe, look, there's always going to be a call for tradition hotels. You know, you're the Ritzers of this world. There's always going to be a demand because there are certain, there are certain guests and a certain portion of the guest that want a concierge, want somebody to take their cases to the room, want to be able to sit in a tea room, etc. Etc. However, there is a growing younger guest that is coming through the ranks who are used to the very, very tech savvy, you know, m. You know, incredibly tech savvy and really just want to be able to go in, check themselves in, dump their, their stuff into a locker because there is, you know, there's a locker available with a passcode and go out and play in London for the day and check in after 3 o' clock because they arrived on the red eye or whatever the case might be.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they want to dump their stuff. And I speak from experience, and that's the important part. I've gotten into a city early because I want to, I don't want to spend my day traveling. So I get into a city earlier and I look for these kind of opportunities where I can go in without any hassle, uh, pod myself in the front door. I can't access the apartment yet, or the studio as we call them. Um, I can't access that yet, but I can have the access to a locker, dump my stuff in the locker and off I go into the city and I do what I need to do and come back at 4 o', clock, whatever the case might be, and check in. So that will certainly only grow as this generation part goes on and the new generation comes behind it because, uh, you know, with the advent of AI and that, you can do all these magical, wonderful things and that's all. Well, not the advent of it, of the proliferation of that AI technology, we're going to be able to be able to have the guest experience much better. I can foresee that we might even have a hologram standing in the hall one day saying welcome to Libre. And I mean people laugh at that, but it's a reality. We're going to have something like that in the near future and you're going to feel very welcome. There's somebody standing welcome to Libre. Um, and they're going to recognize you by logging into your phone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And saying welcome to Libre, John. And um, you know, you're uh, please check yourself in so we can take, get you through your customer journey. And they're going to facial recognition or whatever the case may be. So yes, I, I see that part of the business growing over and above all of the wonderful technology that's going to influence, continue or, or encourage it to grow is going to be the client themselves or our guests themselves are starting to want that freedom.

Speaker A: M. Yeah.

Speaker B: Of, of, of being able to. Today I'm going to catch up on all my work because I am, I'm. How many people today are allowed to take two weeks and go work abroad? M. You know, as part of their, as part of their perks, so to speak, you know. Yeah, so yeah, so people are doing that and uh, they go work abroad for two weeks while they have their holiday or whatever the case may be. They can work from their room because there's a desk and a chair, etc. Or they can go into a co working space possibly and they can have some cereal in the background. So it's definitely going to grow, but the demand for traditional hotels will be there. But what I've seen, because remember I'm involved at looking at planning permissions and all those sort of things. I scratch in that world. You know, I travel in that world. I see more and more office conversions because offices are standing still, turning to how can they maximize their income or how can they return to an income producing asset. And they are turning to people like ourselves at Libra and saying, I have a, I have a five story office block which I'm ready to convert into an hotel. C1 reg, you can convert that into a, you know, a part, uh, hotel. And that's growing. I, I see how many applications are going in for these or how many people are looking at doing that by virtue of the fact that I probably feel fine, it's only myself here, five or six calls a week on people wanting to discuss how they can convert the office blocks that they own, either small, medium or large, into an income generating hospitality type of building. So will it grow? Yes, it will. And everybody in my position is now saying don't build a fully fledged two bedroom, two bathroom or whatever, go with a studio apartment, give me a kitchenette, give me the following etc. Etc. Maximize the space and uh, create an aparthotel. And we are driving that ourselves. So it's a, it's a bit of a circle really. We are driving it and they are wanting it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And the selling point you've had, my last point to that is to the landlord and say come 20 years down the road, 10 years down the road and it hasn't been as successful with us or with anybody. And we want to exit. You have 100 studios, you don't have 100 rooms, you have 100 studios. You can let immediately, you know, so they, we haven't um, destroyed the integrity of his investment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, we vacate. There's 100 studio apartments with kitchenettes, etc. You can let your students, he can, it's an ongoing thing. He doesn't have to go and revamp the entire building in order to produce bathrooms in each room or add a kitchen in each room, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I can't see it debating at all.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's um, a bit of a frenzy

Speaker B: at the moment to be honest.

Speaker A: I guess that's a good thing.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker A: And I suppose thinking about that, the tech aspect and you know, the personalization that that allows for today's guest guests, um, I believe I understand around 96% of stays with Libre are um, completed without staff, uh, intervention and automated. Can you tell us more how that that works in, in practice and the, the technology you use to make that guest experience so seamless.

Speaker B: Okay. So there's a lot of upfront communication and information available on, on, on the property that they're going to enter and so forth. And there's guidance with the download and I can speak from experience because when I go visit our HQ in, in, in um, in Bal, uh, I become a guest in our own, in our own properties, you know. So the apps are seamless. Uh, uh, Libre have spent an enormous amount of money in developing their own applications, their own CRMs, their own booking systems, etc, which operates seamlessly to themselves or to ourselves I should say. So it's a seamless operation from our point of view because if you take something off the shelf it's invariably not going to have. It's a one size fits all and it doesn't work. So from accounting straight through to operations straight through to checking in, customer journey, it's all there. So the most important Thing and this is something that, um, uh, I've heard from a colleague of mine on our site. It's uh. And. And I'll use her. Exactly. By using the technology we have created ourselves bespoke to our company, we have reduced the physical footprint. Okay. I. E. The physical footprint of having somebody on site, however, and in other words, however, not the level of care. So when a customer requires a human to be on the other end of the line or the other end of a message or whatever the case might be, we have centralized teams that are using their time to perform functions to make life better for customers, etc. Etc. Without the physical, you know, uh, relationship or speaking on site who are available 24 7, 365 to answer any query via WhatsApp. Our sites have, um, if they get to the check in point and they can't access the building, the phone's gone down or whatever this camera is, etc. Of, of course, uh, they can press an intercom. They can press an intercom without having to call anybody and it goes straight through to our centralized office. And they could speak to somebody on the other end of that line and say, my phone has just gone down. They'll probably, they will be asked certain security questions to ensure they are who they are. Uh, and then be given an access into the, into the site and into the apartment. So that, that is, let's call it. That's the first line of defense. The second line of defense is they can sit in their room and ask a question via WhatsApp. And be honest, I think 99.9% of the population that has got the technology available to them is using WhatsApp or the like. They're awesome. They could say, oh hell, I think I would like a delay checkout today. For argument's sake. They can request the checkout immediately. It'll get noted. They'll be informed. Look, apologies, but there's a guest coming in at an earlier state who's asked for an earlier check in, which is rare, say for argument's sake or, or hang on a minute. We can provide you with that and you can check out later, uh, et cetera. So the level of care doesn't change. The level of, uh, let's call it personal care doesn't change. It's just the physical footprint. And because we can do that, it's a reduced cost which we can pass on to our client. You know. So, um, it's important to note that again, it's not a one size fits all. There are people that Want to stand in a queue and wait for their keys and. Or I've had this, right. I've turned up in New York City. I walked into uh, uh, one of the better known hotels and a busload of people just beat me to it. And I mean I stood there twiddling my thumbs for good 45 minutes before I had an opportunity whereby I could have taken my phone if they had the facility, walked over to the self check in and unfortunately it was a bus, a load of. And um, I'm not knocking them, but elderly people who all wanted to be gathered around there and it was chaos. And I had the app on my phone, I could have walked over, you know, somebody there would have been self check if I could have gone over, tapped my phone, been granted access to my apartment and zipped up the elevator. But I waited 45 minutes and because there was a couple of bus loads, every time I went down there there was always this little scrum going on at the reception desk and all I wanted was another towel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or a tower, which I never had in the first place. So yes, you know, there, there are times when it's required that we've taken the approach, let's remove that where the guest is not m. Requiring that service, they use it because it's there, but make their life easier. And I think we've uh, I think we've achieved that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I, I think there's something to be said for giving the guests the agency to, to have the stay that, that works best for them.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, and going back to what I said in the previous question, it's the, it's the younger generation who's very tech savvy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They want to swan in, tap themselves in, put their case down or go into their room and not be bothered by anybody. They don't want to answer any questions or queries because all of that's all the know your client, uh, actions have taken place prior to that, you know, with regards to passports, et cetera, et cetera. As one has to. Yes, that's all taken past. They can just go straight in and um, go up to the apartment, have a rest, have a break, have a shower and pop out the door again without having to have any interaction. However, I stress again, should they want that interaction, they can get it.

Speaker A: I was going to ask how, you know, Libre ensures that it maintains that that level of human touch without losing the sort of warmth that is at hospitality's core. But it seems that the right, the right balance is struck and I suppose what would your advice be to other um, I suppose operators in the industry who perhaps fear that with the rise of automation there's a danger to losing that human touch. What would your advice be in terms of how others can find that with

Speaker B: that being sounding presumptuous or you know, uh, that I have the answers to every, every particular question or their particular situation. Uh, you still going to. And I'm going to speak about differentiating between the two. So your traditional hotels will never lose that because they are people paying, they pay a lot of money and they want that, you know. And you, you, you not fully aware of the whole type of hotels I'm speaking about for five stars. They are paying the money and they want to be pampered. From the moment they walk through the door to the moment they leave that kind of client we and people like us will never attract because it's just not in their DNA. All right, so how do we deal? So I go back to the, to looking at the customers that we will attract. Mhm. You know, and they already going to be fairly OK with. I mean just every day you want to make an appointment with the doctor. When else have you spoken to somebody you don't, you know, they were really brought into this from the word go. So the humor, interaction and the warmth. So what I would say to other operators is if you're a traditional hotel or you or that is your modus operandi, that is your thinking and want to do stick with it, you know it is. You're going to have your niche market at all times. Yeah, right. And I'm using the word niche because the larger part of the population is going to go the other way. And where it's going to become more interactive in my personal opinion is um. In my personal opinion is the fact that AI is going to play a larger role. It's going to personalize the journey a lot more in the future. And I go back to many years ago. I went to Disney donkeys years ago, uh, one of my many journeys and I was much younger and I was amazed when I went on the ride. And I'm just going to regale you with a quick story. I think it was the ET ride. And the ET Ride sounds like you've been as well a little bicycle. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And they say your name when you leave, don't they? Thank you John or thank you, you know, Heather. And, and I went, didn't do my name. What they did was just take a photograph. And I mean this is donkeys Years ago, they take a photograph of your face and as you leave and they take another photograph, they match the two up together. Early AI. I mean this was years ago, early AI. Uh, so as I was leaving, uh, have a nice home journey, whatever, and say thank you John for joining us today, blah, blah, blah. And I was amazed. I said, hey, how does that happen? You know, kind of thing. And that was, that was personalized. Out of all the rides. That was the personalized ride because it mentioned my name, you know. And uh, coming back to that. So for other operators that want to operate in the three stroke, four star sort of area, asset light or resource light, I should say, should, um, embrace the technology. Yeah, you know, certainly. Because it's going to get warmer. It's already getting warmer, you know, with. And uh, I keep referring to AI because I use it a lot in a lot of the stuff I do. Uh, and um, you know, whether that be playing with it or working with it, you know, and, and it's, it's really, really going to, it's going to, it's going to be like um, RAM increased year by year from 2kb to 4kb and now you're getting 100, you know, 100 terabyte RAM, something stupid. And this is going to do the same every year. It's going to double in size and double in, in, let's call it knowledge or, or technology or whatever the case might be. So I would say embrace it early, you know, the technology in order to ensure that you survive.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The, the pace of change and development is so remarkable in this space.

Speaker B: M. Unreal. It's ah. And I love it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm one of the buyers into it and I just think this is so great. How did I ever live with that?

Speaker A: Brilliant. And do you think with this changing technology, will this shape what roles we'll see in the future in the hotel industry? Um, perhaps not, you know, reducing headcounts as such, but changing the nature of how the teams work and what the team's responsibilities can be. And how do you see that? I suppose being an AI, being an aid for teams rather than detracting, I suppose.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it depends on your. I'll go back to one of the words I used earlier. Attitude, you know, attitude in my. To me it's one of the most important things. It's how you approach something negatively or positively. That's attitude, is it not? So it's. My attitude is one of positivity. It will reduce the headcount. So let's not get away from that. Uh, in certain areas it will reduce the headcount because one person will be able to perform multiple functions. Okay. In the future. How that will translate, uh, into who will be replaced is still difficult to really get around because we're still clinging to the past whilst we're trying to embrace the future. Um, and that is going to be something that a new generation would have to possibly deal with. Uh, having let go of the past and fully embraced in the future, um, people will definitely be able to perform multiple functions. I already perform multiple functions better. Can they do without me? Possibly not. Because you need somebody that can talk and communicate and build a relationship. Because don't forget relationships are personal. Not over a screen or not, uh, via a technology. However, it allows me to perform my function quicker. Uh, it allows me to perform multiple other functions that I never could or that would have taken me days, hours to perform. And I do it in, in with Claude in an hour. You know, I can put that together, perform everything that I need to, and it frees me up to then do my core business, which is research, resource, etc.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Will that come into that? I'm sure in time to come, maybe that will also be part of it. And, um, you know, a person like myself would need to perform more functions in order to stay relevant, you know, to become more of the pivotal person with more functions. Uh, it will certainly reduce the headcount in some cases, but if you embrace it and you, you use technology to support you, you will survive. Yeah, if you fight technology, you won't survive because there's going to be somebody who's going to use technology and be better at the role than you are.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So my, clearly my message, you'd think I work for a technology company, but clearly my message is embrace the technology early, get to understand it, get to understand how it works and use it to your benefit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: It's, um, it's like Darwinism. Adapt to survive, I suppose.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Ah, and some of the areas it can never replace, cleaners. I mean, you know, let's forget robotics at this moment. Cleaning will always need to be a physical aspect of the business, you know, um, and, and, and, and traditional hotels will embrace other areas, whether they be concierge, etc. Etc. Who says, who's to say that that won't one be robotic or whatever the case might be? But, um, at this moment in time, uh, you know, there's certain areas you cannot replace, uh, which just impossible to replace, you know, uh, the drivers of the, the vans that deliver the laundry. Yes, it can be an automated van, but it can't be an automated person who unloads and collects. So that will always be there. But there are other jobs that may probably amalgamate into one with technology supporting that person. Yeah, that's my take on it. But uh, let's hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime. I'll keep working. Yeah, it will be interesting, really interesting

Speaker A: to see how it develops. Um, brilliant. And finally, John. We finish each episode with a question left by the previous guest. And our last guest was Matthew Lee, who's a head chef at the Municipal in Liverpool. And he's asked what's the biggest leap of faith that you've taken which didn't pay off, but you learned the most from.

Speaker B: I changed roles dramatically once, uh, because I had my own businesses and I thought I could. Somebody spoke me to going to the upholstery business, uh, materials, knowing very little bit of materials. I believed I could learn anything and I'll learn it very quickly. Uh, my whole life I've always been very flexible and adaptable and, and quick to learn. And I took a leap of faith and I applied a lot of money into that. At the time, uh, I was fairly successful, but I clearly was out of my depth. I hadn't researched, um, I was young, in gung ho, had, uh, two successful businesses going and I thought, what the hell, I could add a third. Uh, and um, I hadn't done my research. Uh, and it's not the fault of the person that spoke me into this. I hadn't done my due diligence is, uh, something I do now for a living. And I hadn't done it then. And I unfortunately was uh, left holding, holding the baby, so to speak, fairly large debts and uh, which had to pay off. Uh, so yes, it didn't pay off. But the lesson learned was research, research, research. Mhm. Or the word due diligence comes to mind immediately. Do your due diligence. Ensure you do it right. Ensure you. Because we are. I myself, I'm very keen to, to get something. I might, I might not ask the right questions. Are you with me? Just so that I don't hear the right answers.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. You with me? And that answer might be no.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and I don't want to hear that. So I don't ask the question. Uh, you had. You need to do that. You need to ask the right question so that you can get the right answer. And you might not like that answer. But hell, it'll save you a lot of money in the, in the future.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, absolutely. It's an invaluable lesson. Um, and finally, John, do you have a question to leave for our next guest?

Speaker B: Um, I have many questions. I'd like to leave for the next guest because I'd like to learn from them as well. Um, um, which is what life is. Is it one big learning curve? Uh, one of the areas I mentioned earlier was, um, Airbnbs. And with all the regulations that we have coming into the marketplace across, across many markets and the United Kingdom being no exception, or we're bound to have some markets, do they, does the next guest believe they will survive? Or would they need to, or would it continue to be the fact that they would put their market, their properties back on the market into, and sell their properties to the highest bidder, so to speak? Or do, does the next guest basically believe the smaller operators stroke hoteliers who have Airbnbs? I'm not, I'm calling them hoteliers who have Airbnb's or small number of properties. Will they, will they survive? Does he believe they will survive? And how, if the regulations come in. So in a nutshell, with the coming, coming regulations, will they survive?

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, really interesting. It will be interesting to hear their, their thoughts on that. Um, John, it's been lovely speaking with you. Thank you so much for joining us

Speaker B: and it's been lovely speaking to you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to Checking In, a weekly podcast from hotel owner, the UK's trusted source of hotel industry news and analysis. If you like the podcast, make sure to subscribe on whichever podcast platform you listen to. To get more industry insight, head to Hotel Owner and subscribe for unlimited access. If you're interested in sponsoring episodes of the podcast, drop us a line@podcastotelerner uh.co.uk. Join the UK hospitality industry's leading voices on, um, 3rd of November 2026 for the inaugural Hotel Owner Conference. Hosted by Hotel Owner Magazine at Prince Philip House. This flagship event brings together hoteliers, operators, developers and industry experts for a full day of insight, debate and high value networking. Attendees can expect thought provoking panel discussions, expert keynote speakers and valuable opportunities to connect with peers, suppliers and decision makers from across the sector. Whether you're an owner, operator, investor or hospitality professional, the Hotel Owner Conference offers an essential forum, um, to gain fresh perspectives, discover new opportunities and build meaningful industry connections. To find out more, visit hotelownerconference.co.uk today.