Offline Wine: Sarah and Emily Mack on Creating a Wine Brand for Women Minus the Snobbery & Toxic Ingredients

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: This is Chat cpg. We're your hosts. I'm Liz.

Speaker C: And I'm Megan. Thanks for listening.

Speaker B: Let's be honest, the wine industry has needed a glow up for quite some time. 60% of wine consumers are women in the U.S. so why do we not have more winemakers who understand exactly what they want? The ladies over at Offline Wine are doing just that. They are fixing the gaps in the industry with aesthetically fun bottles approach, approachable marketing, easy to read labeling and wines that taste good literally anytime and any way. Offline Wine, previously called Vanot, is a ah wine company founded by sisters Sarah and Emily Mac. They're on a mission to make high quality European wines without pretension, sourced from family run vineyards, free from unnecessary additives and dyes and tested by real drinkers to ensure they're as delicious as they are approachable. This episode is about wine, but it's also not about wine. We chat with Sarah and Emily about being founders to many different ventures including a, uh, travel blog, Covid Mask making business, and now this offline wine business. These girls really hustle in all aspects of their life, whether it's consulting or building a business. And they also shift with any curveballs they're given, maybe tariffs or anything else. If you have ever felt alone in taking the next step, say to starting something new, whether it's a club or a business or just anything outside the box, this episode is intended to give you that camaraderie and comfort that uh, you're not alone. There are many people out there in the starting position, shifting with everything life gives them and willing to put forward their best foot. Because doing something outside the box is amazing and it's scary, but it's also very fun and rewarding in the long run. We also do talk about wine in terms of hangovers, how to avoid them breaking into a male dominated industry and any behind the scenes reality ease of building a premium wine business that speaks directly to women. When we recorded this, they were still using the name Vanot Wine. So you'll hear us say that in the episode. They have recently changed it to Offline Wine, which is just the loveliest name and so on point. But be aware of that change. They have generously offered us a discount to buy wine from their website. Use all caps CPG15 for 15% off. That's CPG15 for 15% off the offline wines on their website. We will link that in the show notes as always and also on their Instagram page. We hope you enjoy this episode because we are women buying wine? So why not buy wine from founders who know what we actually want? Hey guys. We are so excited to introduce Sarah and Emily Mack. They are the founders of Anot Wines. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Speaker D: Thanks for having us.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. And so you guys make European style wines and you make them more approachable, affordable and fun. You do this particularly for women who might feel intimidated by traditional wine culture. And I love all the like website and socials that you have because it really speaks to women. And so let's just start with telling us like why wine? Where did this journey begin for you and how and why did you start this business?

Speaker D: So our wine journey started several years back in Barcelona and Sarah went there for her mba and I was working remotely, so spending a ton of time in Spain and Portugal and had the opportunity to really get deeper into European wine culture. And during the pandemic, Sarah and I and a friend of ours, we had gotten bored and started a company together and shockingly learned that we worked well together, surprising our parents more than anyone. And then we're just kind of on um, the lookout for our next opportunity to do something together. And wine seemed like a fun idea to do. And so we really started with just kind of the question of what's people's relationship with wine, how do people perceive it and where are their pain points within the industry? So we're a research driven company from the ground up. We actually didn't know we were gonna start bringing bottles over. We're initially actually thinking we're gonna do something in the tourism tasting space and then found out as we got to know our customers and their experience with wine and that they actually had some gaps within the market and were needing more options to meet those. So that is what brought been out about. So we're a sister founded wine brand bringing non snob European wines with no unwanted additives to the US So what

Speaker B: were the pain points that you guys found?

Speaker D: After a little research, one of the funniest ones, which actually I noticed across like even serious wine people was when we were telling people that we wanted to start a wine business, every single person apologized to us for not knowing enough about wine. And to us this was just the weirdest thing ever because we're like, you know, I've never talked to a beer drinker that has ever apologized, never talked to a tequila drinker that's ever apologized. So it was really interesting to kind of have that experience of everybody apologizing to us. We uh, took that as the indicator to dig into why were people apologizing and then found out that women were very afraid of asking questions at a restaurant, or even if they wanted to ask a question, the server would hand the wine list to the man and look at him. Uh, even if it's their gay friend that knows nothing about wine and doesn't care either. So that was a really interesting learning for us. And we just wanted to make wine a little bit more approachable, less intimidating. And part of doing that is making it easy to pick a bottle, but also having what's in the bottle match what they're expecting and appeal to a really wide range of taste buds. So we did a ton of research and blind taste tests, food pairing, focus groups, all of it so appeals to a wide range of taste buds and tastes great, goes with a lot of foods. Sarah, anything to add there?

Speaker A: I was just at New York Tech Week, and there was a couple very high powered women that I was speaking with that, uh, are so confident in everything they talk about. And the second I brought up wine, they started apologizing. And I saw a totally different side of these women. And it's amazing because people, especially women, can have so much confidence in their careers and other parts of their lives. But wine is something that seems universally intimidating, even with women that, uh, like, I'm intimidated to talk to because they're so successful and they feel really self conscious talking to me about wine.

Speaker B: So what did you guys do to make it less intimidating?

Speaker D: One of the key things was making the wine names approachable and something that everybody could say. So a lot of times you'll have like a wine that's like Chateau XYZ and nobody can pronounce the name. And the grape varietals, nobody knows what those are either. So one of the big things for us was a finding approachable names. So skinny dip, cha cha cha out of office. All things that are just fun to say, quirky, and something you definitely want to bring over to a friend's house. And then red blend, uh, white blend, Prosecco, Those are all very easy to say. We are starting to do a bit more approachable wine content and to do a bit more education around stuff. But we want that to be, you know, if somebody wants to learn, they can, but they don't have to to enjoy the wine. We also did a lot of testing, so food pairing, focus groups, blind taste tests to make sure that the wines that are in the bottle appeal to a lot of different people. And also in that vein, we wanted every wine to Taste good right out of the bottle. So a lot of red wines that you might get at the store, you don't know if you need to decant it or let it sit it 30 minutes to open up ours, you can drink right away. No guesswork. If you feel like having a slightly chilled red wine, you can chill. It tastes good. Different temperatures. We never wanted anyone to feel stupid when they were drinking our wine, which was really important to us.

Speaker C: What is it about European wine culture that you wanted to implement in Van Ait?

Speaker A: I think a lot of the snobbiness in wine actually gets created in the US And I'll explain what I mean. Wine is so ingrained in people's everyday lives in Europe. Like they'll have a glass with a friend after work. They started drinking maybe a little bit younger than here with their parents because the laws are different. And I think it's viewed almost more as like an agriculture product. Right. At times like you do have people that are really interested in wine. But something that I always found because I didn't really know much about wine until I was in Barcelona, was that everyone was so open and willing to share about wine with me and talk about the stories, the growers. It was much more playful and fun and approachable. Whereas when I was living in Chicago, for example, I always would find it really hard to find somewhere to go purchase wine where I could ask questions because I would have the sales rep trying to sell me the most expensive bottles and saying this is what you should drink and using big words. Whereas I felt I really began to understand wine in Barcelona. And I think you've got that kind of culture in France and Italy as well as other wine producing regions.

Speaker C: Yeah, like table wine is like a big thing there. Well, they'll just like have the wine on the table that is free, like with like water is. Yeah, no, it's so great. I love that. And also to your point before, about knowing the ingredients that are in it. I feel like typically when you're drinking wine in Italy or Spain or wherever that it is literally from a, uh, vineyard close by. So there's really just like not a lot of stuff in it except for like the actual wine.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the growing practices are really different over there because the European Union has really strict regulations and there's a lot of things we do with agriculture in the US that you're not allowed to do. There's so a lot of, there's different concentrates and additives that get added to some American wines as well. As some other regions where adds texture and color. A lot of those are banned in the eu. And also they do a lot of cool practices, like they'll plant rose bushes at the ends of the grapevines because roses are really susceptible to disease. So they know before there's a problem in the vineyard so that they don't need to use a lot of chemicals on the vines. One of our winemakers actually plants between some of his grapevines the produce for his family that they grow in the summertime, because that also is really picky if there's disease in the vineyard. And so he knows beforehand and they can use more natural remedies to prevent issues with the grapes. Cool.

Speaker C: That's so fun. I love learning about that stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I want to know what your business was before this, your first one in Covid.

Speaker D: So we started a luxury face mask business out of our parents dining room. Our dad to this day, like gets really triggered when we bring the sewing machine up there because we called it our atelier. And our mom grew up sewing. And so we knew how to sew like a little bit when we were little. But we really got into it. She really taught us. So it was both a really fun bonding activity across the family. But also we couldn't find face masks anywhere. And so it started from that pain point of everything is sold out. Our dad had Lyme's disease and so he's higher risk. And so we wanted to make sure we could get something that was N95 quality. And so we found that having layers of flannel or layers of silk would enable you to have that quality or level of filtration. And so we started making face masks and made them cute too, because we didn't want, you know, obviously walk around looking not cute if we had the option to be the opposite. Within the face masks. We ended up actually having a lot of people buy them for weddings because they were very cute. And one influencer actually used our face mask in a, uh, campaign she did with David's Bridal, which was cool for Instagram. And it was just, it was a really fun business. We started it with a friend and we ultimately, uh, ended it because we were all physically going in different directions. I was moving to Texas for work, Sarah was moving to Barcelona, and then our friend was going out to Park City. So just logistically managing all the inventory for that was going to be difficult. Was it pretty profitable? It was more for fun, but we definitely did turn a profit on it. We actually hit a point where and it Was this was a really cool moment for us. And it was also part of the reason we wanted to continue working together and doing different businesses was we realized the impact we could have on the community around us. I think as our face masks blew up, you know, we'd release a new one or an influencer would post it to sell out. We couldn't keep up with the demand. And so we ended up hiring on a couple local seamstresses who didn't have work because it was the pandemic and no one was going anywhere. And so it was really cool for us to actually be able to support the local economy like that. And I think that really sparked a desire to continue doing work like that.

Speaker A: It was crazy though, because three of us were working full time jobs during the pandemic. We were working probably like 10, 12 hour days for our day job. And then we were waking up early and working into like way past midnight, just sewing face masks, which was kind of crazy. But it was a fun experience. It kept us really busy. I feel like it gave us like a level of purpose. So for sure, good creative outlet.

Speaker D: For sure. Oh, well.

Speaker B: So, um, did you guys work on a travel blog together too?

Speaker D: Sarah's travel blog? Yeah, I helped a bit with the PR strategy and everything because I had a PR internship in Ireland. But yeah, it was Sarah's blog.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, So I was doing. That was crazy though, because before the pandemic, it was just starting to get a lot of traction and then the pandemic hit. So then obviously can't do a travel blog when, you know, there's all the travel restrictions.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then for the listener who is not looking at you guys, maybe you're both like, so young. How old are you?

Speaker D: Uh, I'm 30.

Speaker A: 30 and I'm 33. Okay, great.

Speaker C: You guys are so young. That's so fun that you've gotten a chance to like, figure out all these different avenues to kind of go down together. When did you guys decide to take the turning point to go full force in Van A?

Speaker A: We kind of learned from our experience doing the face masks just how hard it is to balance everything. And so we were like, okay. We talked to a few different advisors first. So that was actually one of the learnings from the last business where Emily and I are like, okay, let's set up some business advisors that can hold us accountable. And after that, a lot of them, um, encouraged us to focus on it. But Emily and I both do some side consulting projects as well, and so that's been great. Because it gives us a little bit of income, but we're majorly focused on the knot. I would say we just work 24 7, so kind of having multiple full time the knot with some side items, but it's allowed us to bootstrap the business and be able to kind of grow it how we want to, which has been great.

Speaker B: Okay, so that's how you've done it. You've bootstrapped. Gotcha. Since you both seem to have some corporate background, has it been scary to go from a corporate job to now being entrepreneurs and fully responsible for healthcare or your income?

Speaker A: Honestly, I think scary. But now, I mean, in my corporate experience, I worked on a lot of layoffs and so I think I had a little bit of a different perspective of it not corporate not being that safe for the last few years. And I think, especially if you look at the market right now, I know a lot of people that have done really well in corporate careers are doing side jobs right now because they're feeling less secure in corporate. And so I think in entrepreneurship you do have some level of control, especially if you have the skills like Emily and I do to do some consulting work. Um, different things. But I think over the years I've kind of realized that safe corporate job doesn't exist. So I don't know if it's that much of a risk to leave corporate.

Speaker C: That's super fair. Especially, you know, being a young person that you may have some more freedom to kind of play with that a little bit. Uh, you kind of touched on this a little bit before, but what has it been like building a company as sisters? Has there been any special high moments or any learning moments that you've experienced together?

Speaker D: I mean, yes, to all of the above. I would say, uh, the one thing I enjoy about working with Sarah is I think like our entire childhood we've disagreed on things, right? So we know how to disagree well. Whereas I feel like in other startups, like I have a friend who has done three startups and has exited all of them because of the co founders. And I would say a big learning of mine through that is he really, like, couldn't have the tough conversations. Well, with those people, the tough conversations would end very badly. And so I'm really thankful that we disagree. Really. Well, I respect her opinion, she respects my opinion. And, you know, if there's something that we don't necessarily see eye to eye on, we're able to talk it out and get to see each other's perspective versus dancing around having a hard Conversation on something. So that's one of the things I'm really grateful for. And I think one of the very fun things is, um, just creating stuff together and testing wines and, um, you know, relationship building. We both love that. So, like, going to the wine fairs and meeting the winemakers and talking to them and doing that has been really fun to do together.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker C: That's great.

Speaker B: Do you guys have any crazy stories from being female entrepreneurs in a industry that seems to be pretty male. Male dominated?

Speaker D: So many.

Speaker B: Can you give us the craziest?

Speaker D: Oh, gosh. There's always going to be the creepy men in the world, so we'll skip those stories. But I think one of the first, like, introductions I had to some of the that side of things within the wine world was we're at a wine fair, and we grew up with a father and uncle who loved scotch, so that was one of the first liquors we ever drank. So we really have a wide palette. Wow.

Speaker B: Uh, mine was Burnett's. Just saying. Mine was like, the crappiest crap ever, so.

Speaker A: I'm so impressed with you guys, honestly.

Speaker D: Side note, that was, like, one of the best life skills they could have taught us because going into working in corporate, we were able to, like, I was in consulting, I was drinking scotch with the partners, and it definitely helped my career trajectory go a longer. But back to the wine. I'm gonna not say where it was, but we were at a wine fair, and I asked this one winemaker for the red wine, because I love red wine. Who doesn't? And, uh, he said, well, the white wine's probably going to be easier to drink for a woman. And I was shocked. I was just like, I've never been denied wine like this for. For being a woman. To be fair, that really doesn't happen that often, but it definitely was interesting. Another funny thing is, uh, my background's very research focused. So, like, I'm the person that will, like, stand on the wine aisle at the grocery store and watch people buy wine and ask them questions and see what labels they're choosing. And I do the same thing at wine fairs. So, like, I'll just like, Sarah knows, I go into research mode and I'll just start following people around. So I'll follow, like, the US wine buyers around and listen to the things that they're saying when they're choosing wines. And it's actually quite entertaining. But we also will try the wines that they tried right after they do.

Speaker A: That's smart.

Speaker D: We can see what they're Picking. And I really haven't been too impressed with some of the choices we've seen.

Speaker A: Well, the funny thing is they. A lot of these wine fairs are non English. Right. And so Emily and I both speak Spanish and French. Emily is much more skilled at foreign languages than me. We do a little Italian too. And so we try to do business in the local language, even if we struggle a bit. So it's really funny because these American wine buyers are shouting, they're saying everything, they're thinking their whole strategy. And, uh, Emily and I are just like listening.

Speaker D: Oh, my God, like writing notes in our phone.

Speaker A: Yeah. We're like, oh, this is good to know that, like, this is, like, how they're buying. And it gives us a lot of insight. But a lot of the purchasing is off of label and the person just sampling the wine at the fair. So that's how most wine gets to the US So it's off of one person's opinion versus ours. Come off of honestly, uh, that we would have maybe picked slightly different wines if they were like our personal taste. We love the wines we picked, but they appeal to our customer, not just to us.

Speaker C: Right, yeah, that makes sense. And God forbid you're a woman picking it.

Speaker D: Oh, yeah. And honestly, the most shocking thing, actually, I would say that we've learned about the wine industry when we're at these fairs, following these wine buyers around, is that the majority of wine buyers for the US market are actually men. And that's really crazy if you think about the fact that 60% of people buying the wine in the US are women. And that's a stat reported by a ton of different sources. So that was another thing. Like, we had already decided we were going into wine at that point. But if we hadn't, I think that would have fully pushed us over the line just to add a little bit more female representation to the space.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah, yeah, totally.

Speaker B: Is it more equal in other countries? Like, do men drink it as much as females?

Speaker A: I think Europe is. There's more gender representation in the wine industry in Europe. So actually they don't really track gender disparity much in the us but one of the UC California schools is reported in that state. I think it's 12 to 14% of the winemakers are women. In France, Italy, Spain, you're seeing at like 20 to 30%. And so the industry in the US specifically, it's just super male dominated in terms of who's in the industry. But I think in terms of who's drinking wine in Europe, I think it's probably a bit more 5050 just because of how the culture is there.

Speaker D: Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker C: That's fascinating. And then so obviously you guys have filled this niche of needing or allowing women to feel more represented. I know on your website it's so cute. You have like movie pairings and all of that sort of stuff. How do you both define, you know, intentional drinking?

Speaker D: I actually have never been asked that question, but I really like it. Intentional drinking. Well, I would just say like intentional consumption in general for me is. And we grew up with a mom that's a dietitian, so we really like to know the ingredients of what we're putting in our bodies. And that was one of the things when we started the company, we would not sell anything that we wouldn't personally buy ourselves. And so intentional consumption, intentional drinking for me is really understanding what you're drinking and what's in it, but also in terms of like where you're drinking. Obviously love to be surrounded by people that you love when you're drinking.

Speaker B: Yeah, no loner drinking.

Speaker D: Okay. We don't judge. We don't judge. You can talk to Netflix and drink wine a lot when I do it.

Speaker B: So if you were to drink wine, this is like a big question I have. What's your guys opinion on avoiding a hangover in terms of ingredients or like, because I drink one glass of wine and I still feel hungover. So like, what am I doing wrong?

Speaker A: Okay, we do have some theories on this. I will have to tell you that these are our personal opinions and theories, not necessarily facts. I think there's a lot of different ways people approach this. What we actually hear from our customers all the time is that they don't get hungover, feel better when they're drinking European wines because of the additives in the US Wines. I've also heard, like our M mom, M, for example, she can actually drink our red wine. She can't usually drink red wine. Usually. What wines are a little bit like lower sulfites or they're not, you know, adding sugars and things like that. As much she does better with. I don't know. Do you have an opinion, Emily? I think those two things though that I hear pretty consistently, like not as much added sugar, lower sulfite and that.

Speaker D: Yeah, not as much added sugar. I will say though, sulfites have been used in winemaking since the ancient Greeks. So I do think they get a bit of a bad rap. But it really does, to Sarah's point, depend how much you're using in it. We do have a little note from the founders on our website that has a lot of stats and links out to different sites around just additives that can be commonly found in more likely mass produced wine. Uh, which I would say is why we've actually, the research that we have seen has shown a lot of growth in the price point that we're selling in, just because that's generally not as mass produced. And for us it's great because we're sourcing from Europe and from small family run producers, so we don't have that anyways. But.

Speaker A: And I think where the sulfite thing comes from is if you're making huge amounts of wine, we're talking like maybe millions of bottles, a lot of times they might use a higher level of sulfites to have that wine taste more consistent across them. So there's things like that and I think that's maybe where it gets better. Bit of a bad rep at times, but yeah, Emily's right. We did a lot of research on all the different things that can be

Speaker C: online just because this was on my NPR podcast today. I am curious about the state of the US Right now and like all these tariffs that are coming into play, is, uh, that affecting your business?

Speaker A: The hard part with the tariffs right now, like, we do have plans on like, how we can work with them. Um, but the hardest part is the tariffs hit when that wine or whatever other product hits U.S. soil. And it's actually been really bad for the U.S. producers, specifically because in the U.S. i think there's maybe three factories that can make wine bottles. The cork that corks the wine that's grown in North Africa and Portugal and Spain. The metal caps, foils that go around the top of the wine, those also aren't produced in the US So a lot of the products that US wine producers are using, they're coming from Chinese factories or Europe, including all the equipment that they use at their vineyards. So we just have to deal with the tariff coming from Europe, whereas they're really impacted. And I think the other piece with the tariffs is a lot of the U.S. wine goes to Canada. So it's really hurting the U.S. industry a ton of. I think we've got a little, I don't want to say we have an easier time, but we have less complicated moving pieces to worry about. The hardest part though is those tariffs hit when the wine gets on U.S. soil. So we have to be really aware of what's going on with current events. And it's been tough with how the communication has Been out of the government around timing of tariffs. Like, you know, one day it's 10%, um, the next it's 50%. If you happen to be offloading a ship when that tariff is 50%, you're pretty screwed. And it's causing the customs times to be a lot longer or unpredictable at certain ports. So it's been complicated, but I think also creates some opportunities as well. So we'll see.

Speaker C: That's a very, like, diplomatic answer. I feel like that was really good because it is super annoying that literally on NPR was a French winemaker saying, like, I don't know if we're going to be able to, like, Americans love our wine, but I don't know if I'm going to continue being able to give it to them because it's just so complicated.

Speaker B: So it's crazy how I haven't thought of these repercussions or like, I feel like not everyone has seen, like, the full scope of how it can impact them, you know?

Speaker A: Well, what I'm really worried about with wine production both in the US and in Europe is all the warehouses are full that hold this wine because it's not moving. Right. And so, like, the US Distributors have full warehouses. So I mean, that puts them in a financially tough spot if it's not moving. The wineries all have full warehouses. And so, like, where do you put the harvest from this fall? Because all that wine needs to go somewhere. And so I think hopefully they come to an agreement soon and, you know, everything can get moving. But I think that's a big risk just for anyone operating in the industry as well as, I don't know any industry that could be impacted by tariffs.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, nothing is forever, so that's great. Who would be a person for you that would be your ideal customer? Like if there's a famous person or something that you could, that you could get drinking your wine and as, as like a little ambassador, who would it be?

Speaker A: Oh, um, good question.

Speaker D: We recently did a Limoncello, uh, Spritz collaboration with another female owned brand called Veggie. And Sabrina Carpenter's favorite drink is Limoncello Spritz. So would love to get her drinking the wine.

Speaker C: Yeah, I saw that on the startup CBG email. Oh, I saw you guys in there.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was a fun one we've been talking about for ages. And we love a Limoncello spritz. So it's great to get that launched and amazing to see so many celebs are loving it right now.

Speaker C: Okay, cool. And so when you guys are thinking about the growth of your company and where you are set to, you know, grow and how you want to continue impacting your community. Where do you see Van A going?

Speaker D: Great question.

Speaker A: I think we have been recently jumping into retail and we're in a restaurant, Austin, Texas. And so I think we see Texas as an amazing market to grow in. We have a lot of partners down there and I think also the Midwest and the south are areas a lot of the wine industry kind of ignores. And so I think we have some opportunity to grow in those regions. And we both grew up in Wisconsin and so the Midwest has a soft spot in our hearts.

Speaker B: Hey guys, we have really exciting news. Shelf Love is now a sponsor for our next episode series. My co host Megan has busted her booty to create an amazing company that is a leader in field marketing for natural and organic brands. Shelf Love offers nationwide demo and event support with a team of brand ambassadors who genuinely care about the products they represent. So when they are demoing these products because they care about this industry and health and all of the food trends that we see going on within retailers, they can genuinely connect with those shoppers. And on top of that, they are really personable and incredibly detail oriented. Therefore they have helped brands climb to the top of sales leaderboards at Whole Foods and other retailers by creating those real connections with the shoppers and with the store staff. The staff is so important and they work so hard and it's really valuable to have your demo company connect with those people in store. Shelf Love is woman owned, values driven and they never represent competing brands within the same retailer. If you are ready to watch your brand shine on shelf and beyond, head to shelflove cpg.com and connect with their teen directly at their website. That's S-H-E l f lovecpg.com you can book a meeting and if you check out their socials, you can also get great tips on the latest health trends, how to get the most protein in your breakfast, and so many more. Back to the episode. There has been such a big movement in non alcoholic drinks and I feel like Gen Z is it. The generation behind Millennials is really on board with this non elk movement. Have you seen that impact your sales and how are you guys navigating that change?

Speaker A: Uh, I think one of the problems the wine industry has is they are so focused on the baby boomers. Everything, uh, in wine, how it's been marketed, how it's talked about, was built around the baby boomer generation. And so I think the Industry is starting to catch up with brands like ours, but you're starting to see some interesting things happen. So one term I love is called zebra striping. I think it's really cool that a lot of Gen Z, they like non alcoholic products, but they'll have a non alcoholic product and then they'll have a glass of wine or a mixed drink. So a lot of the people that are actually purchasing non alcoholic products and maybe non alcoholic wine they drink, they're just being more intentional about their drinking decisions. So I kind of see it as a huge opportunity in the market. I think there's something space for both products and you've always had non alcoholic products. There's just a lot of innovation in that space right now. And I think that there's a lot the wine industry can learn from how these non alcoholic brands are marketing to later Gen Z millennials that are loving their products. Because I think wine needs to change. I don't think it's going away, but I think that the industry needs to recognize that their consumer base is changing.

Speaker C: That's a really good point because there is like, so Gen Z, although maybe is more intentional about drinking, they're also more intentional about organic products and that sort of thing too. So it's super smart because you're focusing on the like, limited, uh, ingredients. But also, I mean, when I go into a store to buy wine, I do look at the marketing and your bottles are so cute. And so they would totally catch my eye and would lean me into like then picking up the bottle to learn more about it leading to a purchase. So I think that it's really smart to focus on that. The boring wine bottle is like, even though they might be really good wine inside, like, I just don't care because I don't want to try it.

Speaker A: It's also, Cassie, you almost need, uh, like a specific degree to understand how to read all these wine labels. Emily and I both taken wine certifications and a lot of the content is around, like how to read the labels. Yeah. Which, I mean, it's super complicated for no reason.

Speaker C: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: If you had all the resources in the world, what would you do next? Um, would you still be pursuing what you're doing right now?

Speaker D: Yes. Would still be going for wine in terms of pursuit? I think we would probably do more in what we're already doing and planning to do. It definitely enable us to go faster and have a wider reach within that.

Speaker B: Would your marketing be different at all? Like would you do influencers or would you do. I don't even know how you could do alcoholic marketing. I know there's, like, some guardrails around it.

Speaker A: There are guardrails. I think we would just lean a lot heavier into what we're doing. I think the huge advantage we've had with bootstrapping is that we have to really watch, like, the return we got on every penny. So we've done a lot of testing, and we've got pretty clear ideas, like, what drives a return, what doesn't for us.

Speaker B: Do you mind sharing what that is? I actually don't know what that would be.

Speaker D: Oh, yeah, Just there is, uh, one learning, like, when we had the mask business, and it kind of just tells you how the trends have changed over the years, and, like, not many years either. So we launched the mask business in 2020, and it's 2025.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker D: If we sent a mask to an influencer who had, like, 2 to 10,000 followers, we'd sell out. And now we really maybe are lucky to get, like, a couple extra followers on social media from an influencer posting maybe an order or two. But we definitely aren't getting the type of return that we are seeing in 2020. And I think that's because consumers have become so aware of the fact that they're literally being marketed to everywhere. And honestly, I get it, because we're all going through the exact same thing, right? So that's. I don't think that's an area we push too much into. If we did it, I think it'd be very intentional with who we're working with.

Speaker A: I think a lot of people are still pouring money into is Google Ads. Like, because how often do you Google search now? I feel like everyone's using ChatGPT or whatever their favorite chatbot is to ask questions, and I see so many brands pouring tons of money into it. We did a little testing with Google. We had some free ad credits, and I got a little assistance from an old coworker of mine that knows Google well. And just the engagement's gone way down from where it was a few years ago. And so I think had we not bootstrapped, we probably would have put a lot more money into testing those two things versus, you know, doing a very small test and realizing it wasn't a good direction for us.

Speaker C: What tactics are you using to reach your audience?

Speaker A: You know, even doing things like in store tastings. We're in a place called Tiny Grocer in Austin that just has a ton of fun CPG brands.

Speaker B: I know that one.

Speaker D: Oh, we love it.

Speaker A: It's so cool. We love it. People who run it are just honestly the nicest people. And so, I mean, that's something that we've seen a lot of return from. And, you know, some of those people follow us on Instagram. They'll reach out to us. Uh, so that's one that I think does really well is just getting, like, in front of your customers however you can. Right. I always have, I don't know, like, things with our brand name on it. And I've talked to people in the airport and, like, given them, like, something with our website, and they might become a customer. And so I think a lot of these things that are hard to replicate with a lot of money, um, work well. Yeah.

Speaker C: So you're preaching to the choir, because my company is a field marketing company, so I love demos. They're the best. They are so great when you have a good team behind you. So love that.

Speaker A: I just want to say I feel like field marketing is completely the direction things are going in right now. I keep telling other brands that we talk to that they need to do more like that. And you're 100% on the right track. I think a lot of people are still spending on things that worked a year or two ago that don't today.

Speaker C: What is a industry secret that consumers don't really know about? The wine industry.

Speaker A: Oh, I've got a good one. So your wine bottle might move 10 times before it reaches your door. Because there are a lot of moves to different warehouses and retailers that happen before you see that bottle of wine. So from vineyard to your door, it might move 10 times?

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: That's crazy.

Speaker B: Would it just be better quality then, though? Because it's, like, aging well, actually, if

Speaker A: it's not controlled, it can go bad and route to you. So never be afraid if you're at a restaurant or if you get a bottle of wine. If it tastes like wet cardboard, my friend describes it smelling like grandma's basement. If you get that kind of quality in your wine, bring it back, return it, or ask the person at the restaurant to smell it or taste it. Because wine can go bad. So when it's moving that many times, there's a lot of room for it to have problems.

Speaker B: Good to know.

Speaker C: Fascinating. Okay, is there a quote that either of you guys refer back to a lot that has been inspiring through your journey as an entrepreneur?

Speaker D: I would say just in my career, one of the quotes that resonates a lot with me was, I believe, a, uh, Henry Ford quote where he said, if I Asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses. And I think for me, that really speaks to both doing research but being willing to think outside of the box when you're creating a product and go against the norm.

Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, that's really good. I have one, our late uncle, he had on his desk this paperweight that said charisma is in everything. He was a really big believer. And you take action. You don't just keep talking about doing something. And I think that's something Emily and I take to heart.

Speaker D: I love that.

Speaker C: That's so nice. Final question is, what are, like, one to three habits that you guys implement to stay grounded and to continue moving forward with Vanot?

Speaker A: I would say one, I'm pretty, uh, religious about doing yoga. It helps me clear my head, and I do it most days. I think it's really important to have something that pulls you out of the business for 30 minutes to an hour.

Speaker D: Thank you to our parents for keeping us very active as children because we've carried that into adulthood. I literally, like, Will in my bedroom, headphones on, door closed, like, dance every day. And it's, like, one of the first things I do in the morning. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker D: It, like, puts me in such a good mood for the day. Sarah's never seen this. She is judging me so hard.

Speaker A: I just want to know about this. Do you listen to Jungle Buggy, Emily?

Speaker D: You know, it depends the day. I've really been into, like, the old school hip hop lately, so we're not going to talk about those dance moves, but I think you need to do something for the endorphins, because, like, I mean, we've all seen Legally Blonde here, and the endorphins make people happy. Happy people, you know, don't shoot their husbands. Exactly.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker C: Callback to that movie for our listeners. Where can we find you? Like, where should we order from to get your wine?

Speaker D: Uh, primarily online. We are in a couple locations in Austin, but we will be providing a promo code you can use to order it online.

Speaker C: Perfect. And it's right from your website, right?

Speaker D: Yeah, right from our website.

Speaker C: Okay, awesome. And then if anybody wanted to reach out to either one of you guys, Sarah or Emily, to either ask questions about being a founder or ask questions about Vanot. Where can they reach you?

Speaker D: Uh, LinkedIn. We're both pretty active on there. You can also reach out to us on, um, the Instagram as well, which is at, uh, drink Vanaut V I N A T. We are pretty good about checking that inbox. Sometimes things go into the, you know, unknown spam folder but we occasionally check that as well.

Speaker C: So awesome.

Speaker A: Okay cool.

Speaker C: Well thank you guys so much for being on. It was so fun learning more about Vanot and your journey.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker C: Everybody should definitely go and follow them on Instagram at drink the not B I n a T and also purchase their wine online and I will be very I know Liz doesn't really drink very much but I love wine so I will definitely be purchasing and I will report back to her. But thank you guys so much for being on and have a great day.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to Chat cpg. Please help us grow by subscribing and leaving us a rating or review on your listening platform of choice. This really helps us spread to more people and raise awareness about CPG business and career development. Also shoot us a DM at chatcpg food on Instagram if you have any topic ideas or would like to be featured on the pod. Thanks for listening.