Rethinking Employee Well-being for the Modern Workplace

Speaker A: When I first started years ago at the insurance company that I mentioned, I probably learned more about what to not do than what to do and what, you know, really sort of the pitfalls when it comes to wellness programs. I mean, these are the days of, you know, the little, you know, pedometers that you could walk around with and Biggest Loser challenges and things like that. And I think that that's, in a lot of ways, gave wellness programs or wellness initiatives, as I prefer to say, uh, a bad ra.

Speaker B: Hi. Welcome to the captivating Health Insights podcast. Today, we're talking about wellness and wellbeing in the workplace, and I'm excited to welcome our guest, Ryan Piccarella, executive director at the Wellness Alliance. Welcome, Ryan.

Speaker A: Thanks, Madison. It's good to be here.

Speaker B: I'm glad you're here. All right, Ryan, Season two, I'm asking people this question. You don't get out of it. If we really knew you, Ryan, what would we know?

Speaker A: You know, that's such a hard. That's such a hard question. I'm still discovering my. I think. But I know, right? So if you knew me, what would you. So, one. I think my most favorite thing in life is being a dad. I think that's one thing. And my most probably favorite place on the planet is in Sedona, Arizona. Um, but I love to help people, and so I think I probably like being a dad. But if I could be in Sedona and help people with my kids, that'd probably be, like, the perfect thing. The trifecta, trifecta of all of it. And I think, as you probably tell a passionate person about what I do, but that's. That's pretty simple. That's. That's who I am.

Speaker B: That's awesome. Well, now we really know you. That's your. Your happy place. And, uh, and the trifecta of perfection for. For Ryan Figarella.

Speaker A: So probably sitting on a motorcycle. Can I have a motorcycle?

Speaker B: Oh, you can.

Speaker A: You can use the rules here. So, yeah.

Speaker B: Perfect. Well, thank you for that.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: I would love for you to introduce yourself just for people that aren't aware of the Wellness alliance, formerly known as Wellcoa. By the way, help us understand how you got to where you are today.

Speaker A: How I got here. Good question. Um, I'm going to go way back, if that's okay. So I want to go way back. So I grew up with a disabled mother, and so I saw firsthand the challenges of what health care, the problems with healthcare, uh, and the challenges of what it can do to our lives. And so fast forward later in life I started working for a large insurance company. So I wanted to see firsthand what was going on and what could we do to improve the health and wellbeing of uh, those around us. So I was fascinated uh, by our healthcare system. One of the things that I learned is don't get sick. You're much better off if you don't get sick. And so I ended up getting my master's in IO psychology and really wanted to kind of help change the system a little bit. And so I worked at a carrier for 10 years and on my journey I stumbled across an organization called the Wellness Council of America which is a, ah, not for profit, based out of Omaha Nebraska whose whole mission was to improve the health and wellbeing of all working people. And so that was really my go to source learning about this field of wellness that I discovered along the way. Um, and so again fast forward years after that I had the opportunity to move to Omaha from Tennessee and lead the Wellness Council of America for about eight years. Ended up leaving for a couple years and really wanted to focus on mental health which I know we might talk more about this and the challenges that I think organizations and really our countries had with mental health for a number of years. Uh, had the opportunity to return to Wellcoa, uh, in 2023 um, and we were acquired by another organization called the International foundation of Employee Benefit Plans. Kind of a mouthful that we'll refer to as the foundation short moving forward, um, shortly after that acquisition we acquired another company called the National Wellness Institute which is another not for profit organization based out of Stevens Point uh, Wisconsin and created the Wellness Alliance. And so I know it's kind of a long story but the whole idea is how do we take the best of the best from both organizations and to really help people whether they're working with individuals, communities or organizations. And so we are a not for profit, mission driven organization really just here to educate and to share best practices, uh, to use evidence based ways to approach health and wellbeing. For anybody that's looking to make a difference.

Speaker B: No, that is such a journey. And I share um, initial love for wilcoa at the beginning of your career because I entered um, the benefits space in a brokerage firm as a wellness coordinator and Wellcoa, for those that aren't familiar, Wellcoa is kind of the foundational organization that really helped us understand what is wellness in the workplace, what are, how can we support employees, what are the resources available, how do we do this in an effective way following a, uh, proven framework. And so I have a heart for what was the original foundation of the Wellness Council of America. And I learned so much about how to support employees. And it's just interesting, so fun to see it evolve over the years to the Wellness Lions.

Speaker A: It's pretty wild. I mean, most people don't think about Omaha as being a center of wellness, but they think about Omaha as connected to Warren Buffett. Right. And so he was one of the early directors. Directors. And I think our founder Bill Kaiser and a lot of other business leaders in Omaha just saw the importance of creating healthy communities through healthy businesses. So there really is a rich and cool legacy, uh, to the Wellness Council of America that we're trying to preserve with the Wellness alliance as well. But there's been many years and thousands of organizations and millions of people that we've had the opportunity to improve their lives. It's pretty cool.

Speaker B: It's amazing. And for those that aren't familiar, maybe they're just catching on now or newer to the industry. What is today the Wellness Alliance? What does it do? How does it serve people?

Speaker A: The foundation, the company that acquired us, is very similar in the sense that we have designations, education, uh, live and virtual events. And so we've taken the best of what was WellCoa, um, we've taken the best of what NWI and we sort of put that together, uh, to better serve our members. And so on the WELCOA side, for those that really think are on the legacy WELLCOA side now into the Wellness alliance, we have what's called the well workplace process, which we can talk more about. That. That really is over 30 years of research going into how can we hold an organization's hand and take them through essentially a change management process, uh, to help them improve the lives of their employees. And so that starts with taking what we call the well workplace checklist, understanding where there's opportunities to improve, and then helping guide our members into various resources, whether that be tools or templates or online education, webinars, a variety of things. And uh, then hopefully kind of stand alongside them as they can continue the good work and uh, then apply for one of our well workplace awards. So that would be, you know, Bronze Gold, Bronze Silver, Gold Platinum. Uh, and then, you know, our big event this year is going to be in Nashville. Maybe you'll come join us or anybody listening to come join us, uh, to celebrate the organizations that have won an award there. And then what was formerly on the NWI side we have the CWP which is a certified wellness practitioner, which is a designation. So like other benefit designations, like the CEBs on the foundation side, you know, others, whether they're HR designations, we have our own, you know, wellness designation. So we're kind of bringing all those all into the fold under, uh, then sort of the new brand and umbrella of the Wellness Alliance.

Speaker B: And for those that aren't familiar, again, I just want to level set because wellness means different things to different people. And I can just imagine you're listening to this or watching the video, and you have in your mind, like, what a wellness program is or what, you know, maybe you were at an organization and they had a wellness program. And so that's what you have in your mind. So help us just level set that. Because it can mean different things, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. One of my favorite questions, and I'm glad you asked that early on, and I've really tried to away from the word program. And it's funny, I mean, being in this field for almost 20 years now, the evolution of it, and I think, uh, you know, when I first started years ago at the insurance company that I mentioned, I probably learned more about what to not do than what to do. And what you really sort of the pitfalls when it comes to wellness programs. And these are the days of the little pedometers that you could walk around with and Biggest Loser challenges and things like that. And I think that that's, in a lot of ways gave wellness programs or wellness initiatives, as I prefer to say, a bad rap. And so I think hopefully we can all agree, I said at a minimum, that we spend over 80,000 hours of our life at work. And it should be the responsibility, uh, of organizations, I think, to do what they can. And I think there's obviously boundaries, but to do what they can to help improve the lives, uh, of their employees. And so it's less about programs, but really about understanding what the human needs are within our organizations. And how can we really help organizations, uh, help their employees navigate whatever they're dealing with, with life. And so, you know, for many years ago, it was very rooted, I would say, that sort of the physical dimension of wellness, that we need to lose weight, we need to get our diabetes under control. And again, all important things, I think the basics really matter, but there's a lot more things that matter in our lives. And whether we're talking about mental health or financial wellness or even spiritual wellness, belonging, purpose, I mean, there's a lot of things I know that can be very overwhelming. And so we can talk more you know, later about how do we really get specific about understanding what those needs are. But you know, and again, I think, and then there was a movement that he not call it wellness anymore, let's call it well being. And so I think from my perspective, I say, look like we are the wellness industry. We can talk semantics all day long. I think we're basically saying the same thing. Well, being in other people's minds really sort of means this bigger whole person thing. At the end of the day, I don't think it matters. And I've seen some people talk about it in the context of health and safety. So I think it's whatever words matter to you or your organization is fine. But hopefully we can all agree and let's do what we can to help people improve their health and wellbeing. And that means a lot of different things depending on the person and the organization.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah, I think that's very well said. And I guess I would just challenge you right now. Uh, anything that you, whatever words you use or experience you've had and you have a certain opinion or what wellness or wellbeing in the workplace is, I would challenge you just to set that aside and just think about, like you said, we spend so much time at work, the majority of our lives at work, and it just impacts so much of our health and how we show up as a person and to our families. And so at the end of the day, how can you as an organization help your people be healthy?

Speaker A: It seems like such, it's such an obvious thing. You know, there's a book called Dying for a Paycheck written, uh, by a guy named Dr. Jeff Pfeffer out of Stanford. And he says that the workplace is the fifth leading cause of death in the US which is a terrible stat to hear that. But I'm like, okay, if that's the case and the workplace can be the fifth leading cause of death to employees, can we flip it? Can the workplace be a source of health and healing? And I think absolutely, if it can have that sort of negative impact to kind of challenge that paradigm. Um, and I think, and again, we can talk more about metrics and strategies, but businesses are now showing that if they do invest in their people that it will impact the business bottom line. And I think that that's sort of the shift that we need to make, that it's really less about healthcare cost savings or cost avoidance, which you can't actually show anyway, but it's about business performance and business outcomes and you can have that and Improve the health of your people along the way. And I think that's really the direction that we're headed, which I'm excited about. So it's less about 10,000 steps a day and more about improving health and wellbeing and vitality and thriving and all of that, which is kind of cool to see us continue to go that direction too.

Speaker B: Yeah. So if we're setting aside what maybe wellness or well being was in the past, and we're thinking about a um, more holistic vision and strategy of just taking care of your people, helping them be the best they can be so that they're better, uh, performers at work and they essentially make cost less from a health, um, care cost standpoint. Where do you start? What are the core components of a well being strategy for today's modern workplace?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great question and I would say that uh, what's the most important thing is thinking about it from the perspective of how can you, from the very beginning begin to think about tying your, let's call them, health and wellness metrics back to business performance. And I think that's really what's going to ensure the sustainability of a program. I'm, um, going to give you a couple examples and I'll answer more. So for some organizations that might be thinking about health and safety, right. There was um, a construction company that they did something very simple. What I think is important too is it doesn't have to be expensive. And I think that that's where a lot of organizations, well, you don't have the budget for that or we're going to not be able to afford that this year. But what they started doing was just putting um, pictures of their family on their hard hats when they would go out in construction sites. And what they found is just by virtue of doing that, if I see your kids on your hard hat and mine, uh, on mine, that there was sort of created this culture of ah, protection and safety. And so they saw that they reduced accidents on the job by over 50%. Like that's an incredibly powerful metric for a construction company that's looking at reducing accidents on the job. It's something as simple as putting pictures. And so it sort of reinforces that sense of belonging and purpose, you know, with others. And so again for construction companies and other companies that, you know, might be looking at, you know, days missed, you know, accidents on the job, you know, things like that, for other industries it might be very different. But I think just the first piece is understanding just sort of the needs of your Employee population and what's really wild and that doesn't have to be that hard. So, you know, another company that we were working with built this beautiful fitness center, um, in their, in their new shiny building is like, oh, this is going to be great. Sadly, nobody was using it and they didn't understand why. And so we finally went back and we asked their employees, said, hey, how do we, you know, what's holding you guys from doing this? And they said, there's a perception within the organization that if we don't, if we use the fitness center, that we don't have enough to do in our job. And so I think a couple things, I think so a, just asking your employees what they need. I think, of course, looking at health data, if there's specific sort of, um, issues that you're trying to resolve, whether that's smoking or diabetes or obesity or hypertension, any of that, I mean, I think it's important to understand what chronic conditions you're after, um, and then to begin to understand how can you build environments to support people in achieving those goals as well. So it really is a multi level process. And when it comes to data collection, you know, it changes every year because you get more sophisticated. So the first year is basic stuff like who shows up to the party, do they like the party, do they like what you're offering, are they using the fitness center, things like that. And then as you begin to move into, you know, year two, year three, year four, year five, you can begin to really understand how those, how those data points impact an organization's bottom line. And some of those key metrics like safety, like health and wellness, and hopefully you're starting to see healthcare costs go down as well.

Speaker B: So step one is, uh, really just understanding the needs of your population. Uh, what, you know, what is getting a temperature of, what do they like, what do they not like, like what are the issues? What's. And I, I love thinking about it as kind of going back to our other conversation. How can the workplace not be a barrier to health? How are we being a barrier, you know, how are we causing problems toward, you know, the fifth leading cause of death? To know how can we help, like, help people, like, use it as a place to help people.

Speaker A: The secret sauce to all of this is the culture piece of it, right? And so programs are fantastic, whether it's, you know, a clinical program or otherwise. But if you operate within a toxic environment, um, none of those programs matter. And that's kind of the first part of it too is understanding you Know what, What are maybe some of the cultural limitations that we have and how can we address those? First, and there's another great study that I'm happy to share with you that looked at caring and compassionate organizations and that people that feel that their organization cares about them, that they're more likely to show up, they're less likely to turn over, talk favorably about the organization, less hostility in the workplace. The bottom line of this particular study was it, uh, was unbelievable. And again, this is in the absence of a program, this is just trying to do things and understand and ask questions about what can we do for our employees. And so I think it's looking at some of the very basic things most organizations do. Engagement surveys. Most organizations have some kind of, you know, pulse check or metrics. They can begin to look at it and start there first and understanding how can we, you know, really think about creating. And management's a huge part of this as well. How can management, you know, in some ways be held accountable and responsible for those that report to them on down, starting with the board of directors, you know, looking at, you know, the CEO and down and down and down is, I think once you have that, that shared, uh, accountability, you can do amazing things.

Speaker B: Yeah. I love that you brought up the culture piece, because I want to ask a question about where do you think employers get it wrong and where. I think I'll just start with mine. I think the number one ways that employers can get it wrong in terms of how you think about wellness or your wellness strategy is thinking about it as a program or initiatives and not taking an organizational change approach. And I experienced this firsthand where I was a wellness consultant and I was trying to put in programs or do initiatives that were supposed to be reaping organizational changes without an organizational change management system. And so I guess in addition to that, is that what you're seeing or what would you say?

Speaker A: I mean, a huge part of, I think, where a big barrier is trust and rolling out. Uh, I mean, I think one of the earlier mistakes I made in my career was we rolled out this little actiped walking program and it was these devices that would capture your steps. And people thought that we were putting GPSs on them. And like, you know, when they would go home or go to the bathroom, it was really. And we were, you know, we were so excited. We thought we were doing the best thing in the world for everybody. They're going to love this. This is so cool.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it was like, wow, we didn't spend the time really you know, being transparent and talking about how, like, what they were, what they're not. I mean, the same I've seen organizations that have kind of flopped with biometric screening. I mean, that's a very personal thing. And again, I think in a lot of HR or people that are trying to. This is great. You're going to. You're going to know your numbers, you're going to know your numbers campaign, all of that. But I think just having a, you know, having really spending the time to build trust is one of the most important things, especially from a cultural perspective that, uh, you can do. So people that really feel that it's an authentic program, right, that you're not just doing this, oh, they're just trying to save money or cut costs or follow me to the bathroom or do whatever. So I think that that's a huge, huge part of it. And that's really where a lot of organizations, I think, really, really struggle. It's just trust, especially when it comes to leadership.

Speaker B: And what I've seen, because I've seen the same thing, building trust is so important. And a lot of building this culture is trial and error. So what have you seen, like how maybe a company has tried something, maybe it didn't work like you said, but they've continued to try and to evolve and basically gain that trust back. How have you seen that play out?

Speaker A: I mean, the simplest way is to listen. And I know that that sounds like such a simple thing, but a lot of organizations don't do it. And they assume that they know what employees want, or they assume that they know what's best. And so I think finding ways. And then the important part, if you're asking them to share and you do listen, then you have to do something about it. And so that's the other piece where I think I've seen organizations make a mistake. They might do focus groups or ask a lot of questions. They listen, and then they don't either do anything about it or make up a bunch of excuses why it's not possible to give them what they want. And so I think employees understand there's guardrails, rails around all of this, and you can't promise the moon, um, and then give them a coffee cup and hope that they're happy again. But I think it starts from new employee onboarding and setting expectations and leadership management training. I mean, that wellness is not something that can be owned by any one department or person in the organization. I think that that's the piece that it really has to be infused within literally every department, um, every location. I think that that's why it becomes. But it's not that hard and it's actually not that as well. And then the programs that we talk about, listen, there's great programs out there. I mean, there's great nutrition programs, there's great physical activity programs. I mean, there's literally there's thousands of apps for whatever you want to do, which is cool. And there's some, even with the Wellness alliance that we use as team things, and they can be helpful, but the basics have to be done first. Um, and then those apps and programs, other things can be layered on top of it and can be great resources. And they're tools. They're not the magic solution. They can never be, but they can be great tools. Just again, wrapped in a much bigger sort of cultural. And that's, you know, at WELCOA now, you know, Wellness alliance, that's really what I think we do most. I mean, it's really a cultural change management process wrapped, you know, under the wrapper of a wellness, you know, initiative, which I think what's really important.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you, you call those the, uh, seven benchmarks. Right. So it's a change management process to infuse well being throughout the organization. But it's, it's. That's how, that's the term that people would know. Right, the seven benchmarks.

Speaker A: Seven benchmarks, yep. And so benchmark one is committed and aligned. So it starts there. Because if you don't have. And again, this is not just about CEO support. This is about shared leadership. And I even say within our. We're all leaders in our own right, even if we don't have direct reports. But I think, why are you doing this? Why is the CEO and then everybody under him or her, um, supporting this? And how do you. And again, a lot of organizations, I've seen the challenge, it might be with middle management or management over non exempt employees where it's like, oh, well, they're hourly, so we can't give them time to do this. Uh, and again, so I think that that might be the stop. So it really is creating sort of share alignment and expectations and that's really the beginning. So why are you doing this and what do you hope to achieve with this? And making sure that whatever your success metrics or outcomes are are going to align with the CEOs or the CFOs. If he's expecting Madison to save us, you know, 10% of our healthcare costs in two years, I got news for you. Like it's not going to go well for you in two years and it's going to be a complete misalignment with that. So I think it's also just making sure that everybody's on the same page with our goals, our hopes and our anticipated outcomes with all of this.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great point. I've seen that um, impracticality where the intervention or just what we're trying to do is not matching the anticipated outcome. And so let's get on the same page as far as, you know, what we're expecting to happen. Because like you said, it may not result in a lot of savings. But culturally, what are you building? You're building retention and um, work cohesion, all of these things. So are we measuring the right things here?

Speaker A: That's important. I mean I'm sure you might have heard the term like voi value of investment versus the return on investment. And I think it's a business and I get that there needs to be return, but I think really understanding, I mean if you have a lot of stress in an organization, stress increases cortisol and cortisol reduces creativity. Right. And cortisol can be attributed to a lot of um, other problems with health as well. And so again, big. I'll just use Apple as an example. Like having creative people at the table with Apple is an important part of their business. Right. Having people that are, you know, like in construction that show up and that, you know, are paying attention is important. So really thinking about what are your business metrics? Because I would argue that any important business metric you could tie back to the health and well being of your people. So I think it's important to uh, do that in the beginning so that there isn't, you know, misalignment and just sad people at the end of the journey.

Speaker B: Mhm. What would you say are, uh. Because we're gonna go over the benchmarks in more detail, but what would you say from like a high level, should employers be thinking about, say they're very new to this. Where do they start? How do they even begin to think about creating a strategy?

Speaker A: The first thing is you've gotta answer that question. What are you trying to accomplish? And to make sure that that's kind of the shared vision. And I really hear organizations say, well, we're going to implement a wellness initiative because we need to save healthcare cost. That always makes me cringe because a lot of times that's very disappointing to a lot of people. And not to say that it can't but the value story that I think was sold for years was cost avoidance. And if you stop this today, if you stop smoking today, if you walk more, drink more water, get better sleep, whatever the case is, eat more veggies that you won't cost X tomorrow, and I don't think that that's a fair value story. So I think the first step is organizations really need to be committed to, um, you know, helping improve the health and wellness of their employees for the right reasons and agreeing on what, you know, what are some of the shared goals and expectations with that. And then I think that the second piece to that would be asking and really understanding what the needs of their employee population is. And a lot of times, and again, there are great apps and tools and things that are out there, but really asking and spending the time to understand, you know, how they're going to design a program around their specific employee needs and we'll talk more about how to do that. But again, I know those two things seem fairly simple, but they do take time. And really understanding those things first, uh, will help build out a successful strategy next.

Speaker B: So how do you think employers kind of, where do they make mistakes? Because you said it takes time, I think a lot of times it's rushed. What would you say that they maybe get wrong in that process?

Speaker A: I guess a lot of complaints that I hear, at least from our members is they don't dedicate the resources to it. A lot of times it'll be underfunded, under resourced out of the chute. And you'll have one person, uh, that might be responsible for doing this and it can be very frustrating. You won't get. So I think just a commitment from the beginning that there is going to be the time, the people and the resources to do this. And like I said earlier that it can't be Madison that's in charge of the entire, well, wellness strategy for the organization. And she's going to get all the feedback and do everything that I think really, and leveraging the resources that you have available. There's a lot of great institutions. I mean, the Wellness alliance is one obviously to go out there. And again, there's a lot. There's. We're a not for profit and especially if they're a member of the captive, uh, can have a lot of these great tools and to learn from other organizations that have done this as well. So get out there and check out a testimonial and see what others have done because we've been doing this for a long time and so I said I'm never a fan of reinventing the wheel with anybody. And there's, you know, look at an organization that's maybe similar to yours and talk to people, um, and to network. I think one of the most powerful parts about the Wellness alliance community is just that is the community that everybody's really dedicated to helping each other. I know they could reach out to you, they could reach out to me. Um, and to really find trusted resources to help them on their journey and to know that you're not alone doing this. Um, we're a passionate community that wants to help. So I'd say start with us too.

Speaker B: Mhm. I don't know if you've heard of this, but, but I would challenge employers. I heard this years ago. Look at what you spend in totality in a year in healthcare costs and even take 1% of that, 1% of what you spend on all of healthcare and just focus that on wellness. Even be pretty amazing, right? Yeah, I mean it would be a decent number. You could start somewhere.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And yeah, I mean I think the impact of that would be huge. As you're talking, I'm like, man, if I even just looked at my own spot and I started making sure that I'm spending 1% or taking 1% of my time or doing that. But I think that's, it's the small steps approach. Right. How can you start doing little things to have a big impact? But I think every organization should absolutely prioritize the health and wellbeing of their people. Um, and it should be a business strategy and priority, not just a, uh, nice to have. And I think that's hopefully the mindset and the shift that we can make.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean you think about any other organizational initiative, initiative, if you're, if the organization's taking it seriously, you have dedicated resources, you have a plan, you have, you know, you know, you put effort into it. I mean it's like any other organizational initiative. If, if you want to get a lot out of it, you're going to set it up for success.

Speaker A: And it's, and from the, and I say at the board level that it needs to be, I mean it needs to be talked about like every other important metric or project within the organization that like let's, let's look at it, let's understand, you know, get the baseline for, for where we're at as an organization. And again, I mean it could be like you mentioned earlier, turnover or things like that. I mean looking at just having a scorecard of metrics that matter to your organization. Um, but once you start really looking at those and making a difference, um, I mean, amazing things can happen.

Speaker B: And we're gonna wrap up this conversation and we're gonna dive deeper into the benchmarks, which is really like a playbook. So we're gonna get more practical and tactical next. But, um, as we close here, any kind of closing thoughts that you would share with our listeners? Listeners?

Speaker A: I think the thing to keep in mind too, is that the culture is so important here that really can make or break a great wellness initiative or a well intended wellness program. Um, and so really understanding where there might be barriers there is incredibly important. But I think at this day and age that I always say wellness should be something that we should all rally behind that improving the health and well being of our colleagues, of ourselves, of our community, of our family, our kids is something that we should all get behind to help improve the lives however we can. So, uh, again, just to reiterate, like, I know you and I are here for the journey to help anybody out there, but I think there's no greater gift to give to somebody than health and wellness. It's those things. When it's gone, it's gone. And, uh, so let's help improve how we can.

Speaker B: Yep. Love it. Amen. Well, thank you for this conversation, Ryan, and appreciate you being here today.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you, Madison. That was fun,

Speaker B: Sam.