Deep Story: How Bob Rogers Creates Experiences That Transform

Speaker A: Welcome to the Breakfast Leadership show, where we explore the realities of leadership, decision making, and building organizations that perform under pressure. Your host, Michael D. Levitt, is the creator of the Breakfast Leadership Operating System, a, uh, framework designed to help organizations improve decision clarity, strengthen leadership alignment, and reduce the execution friction that slows teams down. Each episode features conversations with leaders and experts navigating the challenges of leading in today's complex world.

Speaker B: Welcome back. I've, uh, got Bob Rogers on the line. Bob, how are you today?

Speaker C: Pretty good. Uh, how are you?

Speaker B: I am wonderful on this and always have to look at my watch Tuesday at the time of this recording. So I really appreciate your time today. So for those that aren't familiar with your work and you've had an amazing, amazing journey so far. You're not done yet. You have an amazing journey so far. So why don't you share a little bit about yourself and then we'll jump into the conversation.

Speaker C: Well, I, I started out in the magic shop at Disneyland. It was my introduction to show business. It was the perfect introduction to show business. My job was to demonstrate the magic. That was the show part. And then while they were still amazed and dazed, drag them over to the cash register and sell them the magic. That was the business part, the edit, show business. And what I didn't realize until quite a bit later was that I was doing something else as well. I was doing a third thing, which was that I was very slightly changing the identity of my guest, causing them to see something in themselves they had not seen before. And that was the possibility that they might be a magician, that they might be capable of this. And ever since then, the lessons that I learned performing magic one summer in the magic shop at Disneyland has sort of informed the whole career. For 44 years, the company I founded together with me, BRC Imagination Arts, we have been creating experiences that change what people do next. The main users are museums, things like, uh, the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library. They're cultural institutions like, say, the Ryman Theater tour in Nashville or the Grand Ole Opry tour or the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. We've been doing presentations for them. And also many corporations, brand homes, things like the Jameson Bow street in Dublin or the Johnny Walker Experience on Princes street in Edinburgh. Places where people go to be immersed in the brand, et cetera, et cetera. And these are not pop ups. These are brick and mortar things. Very permanent. The Johnnie walker project is nine stories tall. It's got about 10 different whiskey related experiences. Everything from bartender school to an introduction to, uh, whiskey et Cetera, et cetera. So we have been very effective at it and won all kinds of awards and things. But what was lacking was we saw that others in our industry were, knew, knew how to talk the talk, but did not know how to walk the walk. And sort of as a legacy piece, I created Deep Story, the book that is going to be published here shortly. And Deep, uh, story explains how we've been achieving what we achieve. It's a practical how to. If you want to tell stories that make a difference in what people do next, Deep Story will show you how.

Speaker B: I think that's the biggest key is we've all been part of presentations where they're sharing information, knowledge. Maybe it's transformational, but painting that picture where the person feels like they are in the experience. Disneyland is a great example of that. You, you ride the rides or you go through the exhibits, you feel that. And, uh, it's, you know, and they've been doing it for a very long time. It, it, you feel part of it, you know, it, it's, it's quite frankly, magical in a way. But it, there's is. It's when I think about, you know, stories that I see, whether I'm watching, you know, the other day I happened to stumble across a Bill Curtis episode of something I. For. I actually, I forget what they were talking about. I think it was something new Chicago, because obviously Bill was the newscaster there amongst, you know, the, the billions of, uh, shows that he's been on. But it was, it was bringing me in because I worked and lived in Chicago for about six years, you know, just a small chunk of my life. But it was impactful and I was getting some stories about how things were going on in the city, you know, long before I was there. But it was, I felt part of it because there was a, a connection there. And even with storytelling, even if there isn't necessarily a connection, the great ones can bring you in, you know, in the work that you've done in, in Hollywood and even, you know, the stuff that you've done with, with NASA as well. I was thinking about that a bit going, okay, you're on a rocket, you get blasted off into space. Okay, that, uh, that in itself is amazing. But there's the experience of that that is, for those that get to do it, is something that's just absolutely amazing. You can write all the things out and do all the tests and get prepared for it. This is what you're going to experience. This is the, you know, this is how you feel. This how uh, you're going to enter the atmosphere, this, how you leave the atmosphere. But that experience, or if you're watching an amazing film or a television show, it connects you. It's like you're now in that scene and the great ones do that. And that's why the story is so incredibly important. So I always ask authors this, why now? Why the book? Why did you feel that you wanted to write this book? My hunches. You've been wanting to do it for a very long time and it finally came together. But what was some of the reasoning behind giving up so much of your time to put into a book? Because obviously it's not a over and night type of situation, lots of time involved. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Speaker C: These names won't mean anything to most of your, uh, listeners, but when I was young and starting out, some of the then giants of my industry, people like Marty Sklar, who ran Walt Disney imagineering for almost 50 years, or buzz Price, Harrison Buzz Price, the man who told Walt Disney what city to put Disneyland in and what city to put Disney World in. And Don Iwerks, another Disney legend. His father was the true inventor of Mickey Mouse. And these, these people took time out of their day to help me and teach me and see possibilities in me. When if you looked at my resume to that point, there was no reason to believe I would ever achieve anything. And yet they took the time to help me and whatnot. And they're all, marty and Buzz are gone. Don is still alive, but Marty and Buzz are gone. I cannot repay them. But what I can do is do what they did and pay it forward. I can pay it forward to another generation as a way of saying thank you for just an incredible career and an incredible body of knowledge that those people gave me. And more than anything else, once again, back to where we started. They caused me to see in myself a possibility that I may or may not have been aware of and say to myself, yeah, I could do that, I could do that. So it was transformative in that way. And it is true that some of the sensations that we can create by creating experiences for people. For example, we created the space shuttle simulator that is at the Kennedy Space Center. It's really true, we do make you feel as if you are being launched into space, but that's easy. And that kind of is, uh, an hour afterwards you're kind of okay, now what'll we do? So did it really change you forever? The idea is that it changes you forever. And that's what Deep Story is about. And people have asked me why that title. And it's because deep the story needs to come from deep within the audience. And I say come from deep within the audience because the whole key to Deep Story is that you go deep, deep into the audience looking for emotional triggers, emotional truths that touch the heart and that people are going to respond to. And then you go deep, deep within the brand or within the subject, looking for the emotional triggers, the uh, deep emotional truths. And here's the secret. You're looking for the same emotional trigger pre existing in both. In other words, not one from one and one from the other. No, you're looking for the same one that pre exists in both. And you make your whole story, you structure your whole story around that. And if you do that, the experience will cause the visitor to see that bit of themselves that they know rings true to them. And they'll see that in the brand or in the subject and they'll identify with it. And that will permanently link the heart of your visitor to the heart of your subject or brand. That's Deep Story.

Speaker B: And the great organizations and great storytellers do that. And most of us didn't really know what that was, but we just know, okay, when I go to this particular establishment or a restaurant, for example, it can be a restaurant, you know, they just connect with you. There's something about it. Maybe it's, you know, they, they trigger a past memory or something of your youth. You know, I love going into diners because my grandparents used to take me all the time. So when I go there, it's literally I'm, you know, a seven year old version of me and I just experience it and it's just it. And the older I get, I don't want to say the more mature I get. I said the older I get because there's a big difference from that. But the older I get, I, I, I, I uh, love experiences, you know, and I, and I aim to find them as much as I can every day. And it could be subtle, but it could be something huge. Even walking my dog, you know, yesterday or a couple days ago, it was Sunday morning and Sunday morning, there's something different about Sunday mornings. It's uh, the noises outside tend to be a little quieter. There's just, there's an ambiance about it. Especially you know, early to mid morning. It's just, it's a little different pace and you walk a little slower. And even my dog recognizes, okay, we're not, we're not sprinting because we have to go off somewhere. We're just kind of enjoying the day. I'm, um. Okay. I'll smell this bush. Okay. Um. Okay. I don't need to pee on this bush. Talking about the dog, by the way. Not me. Just making sure that everybody's clear on that, but just, again, be intentional. And I think that's. In this world, we find ourselves going so fast that we miss out on just normal experiences that could be there for us because we're trying to think five steps ahead instead of just experiencing life as it presents itself. So love your thoughts on that.

Speaker C: Well, uh, experiences are good primary experiences, that is to say, doing something for the first time. First time you ever jump out of an airplane. First time you ever, you know, go swimming. First time you rode a bicycle without. Without three wheels. First time a lot of things. First time they stick with you and they become memorable. And some of them, a limited number of them, transform you and change you permanently in some way. Cause you to not just see the world differently, but to act differently from the point of view of business leaders. Business leaders are creating experiences for their customers. Museum leaders are creating experiences for their visitors all the time. And these experiences have make a vague promise that they're going to change you in some way. Most of them do not. Most of them entertain brilliantly. They may be very memorable. They may educate and give you some facts, but do they really cause you to be different, to act different? And that's where business leaders might benefit from taking into the approach of deep story, of making sure that they know what they're trying to do. Exactly. Define the change they're trying to make and then make sure that everything about what they're doing is pointed at achieving that change in their visitor. Otherwise, they spend millions and millions of dollars. And maybe everybody's entertained, everybody feels good about it, but they haven't achieved what they imagine they've achieved. And that's what, um, that's, I think, what deep story is about. And again, you have to go deep, deep within the audience, deep within the subject. Looking for that common thread.

Speaker B: Yeah, she was talking. This was years ago. Detroit Institute of Arts had a baseball exhibit. The same weekend they had a baseball exhibit, a Star wars exhibit. And just, you know, the regular, know, art and museum pieces that they have at the dia. So growing up, big baseball fan, also love Star wars, so was able to experience. Well, so saw the Star wars stuff first and then going through the. The baseball stuff, saw the Honus Wagner baseball card that, you know, usually Goes for millions of dollars. They had that on display and all of that. And then you go, I, uh, walk through it and then you walk over into this next room. So the exhibit's in. It's like, okay, now let's, you know, go to the, the art. And it was, I rounded the corner and it was just one wall and there was nothing, There was no markings on the wall. But in the center of the wall was Van Gogh's self portrait. I wasn't emotionally prepared for that. That was a very big shift. And I'm like, okay. And all of a sudden I'm like, there's the Van Gogh self portrait. And literally got teary eyed, uh, because I, I just wasn't, I wasn't prepared for that. It was not like it was shocking of course, to see it, but I was just, it was just such an emotional thing to ever, you know, seeing all the things that I experienced, the things that I loved and enjoyed. And you come around and you see that and made me realize really quick of, you know, how deeply moved I was by that intentional experience. Because they could have easily said, okay, you know, here's this, you know, here's some brochures on some things. Okay, you can continue on this and not think anything about it, but uh, to go around and you see, you know, one of the most famous, you know, paintings out there, I wish they would have worried me a little bit, but, but it would have taken away from that experience. And as business leaders, whether you're running a museum or you're running a business, the ones that do well, we know the marketing jingles and all that, but we also understand the experiences that we have. It's not just a transactional thing for m. Most businesses, that's what it is. But there are certain ones that are. It's not just transactional. It's something that, like we've talked about a couple times, it brings you in, you feel like you're part of it. Even though you're a consumer and you're a customer.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: They make you feel a part of it. And that's, you know, one of the great things about your book is it helps organizations get closer to that because if you do that, boy, oh boy, you know, think about Apple and all the other, you know, types of organizations where, you know, their fans are just humongous. You know, they're, and they're very loyal. They believe it, they feel a part of that. It's not just, okay, I'm buying the phone, okay, great, but, or a device. It's it's something. It's something more.

Speaker C: They feel a part of it. And that's. That's key. Deep Story will do that. The. We like to say that a great singer songwriter does not sing to us. They sing for us. There's something about what they're saying or singing or doing on stage or in the recording that we feel very connected. We feel it's expressing something that if we were poets, we would be able to express that ourselves as well. It's. That's the, uh. That's the difference because you can. You can entertain people by, you know, telling jokes and things like that. But it. But the people who really connect with us are seemingly expressing our ideas more articulately than we can express them ourselves. That starts with going deep inside your audience, et cetera, et cetera. That's the, that's the key. The point of a great experience is not really whether people enjoyed it or not. The point is whether they come out prepared to act and act differently. That's from a business standpoint and from a museum curator standpoint. That should be the measure of success as to whether we've achieved our objective. One time in the magic shop, I'd had a particularly humiliating day. One of the problems with working in a magic shop is that the guests can buy the magic for a couple of dollars, go around the corner, open it up and read the instructions, and then come back and expose you in front of the next group. That's really humiliating. One of the senior magicians, when I was complaining about this to him, he said, bob, and this is worth writing down. If you remember one thing from this whole conversation, write this down. He said, bob, this is not the magic temple. This is the magic shop. People do not come here to admire how magical you are. They come here hoping you will help them discover some magic within themselves. Wow. Isn't that the heart of all hospitality, all salesmanship? If you, if you're running a restaurant, don't you want to have your guests feel that. That they just. This is a magical place where they entertained their. Everything that was special about them and the conversation they were having at the table and whatnot. Uh, everything about them was just really special. And your staff made it so, and the food made it so. It's nice to have them come and admire the chef. But if the chef is doing something that the people see as an expression of their own love of food, it's. Then you're. You're. Then you're. You're not cooking to them. You're Cooking for them. You see that, that key difference. And this is what. A lot of, A lot of money gets wasted every year pursuing that idea but not achieving it. And, and that, that in essence, is why I wrote the book. I got tired of seeing the resources. If we fail to. If we fail to cause a business to do better because we didn't, we didn't do a good job with the visitor center. We've failed not only the customers, we've failed the employees, we've failed the employees, families. We want to help that business thrive. If it's an educational institution like a museum or a cultural institution, we haven't just failed that institution or its guests. We've failed the future. Young people need to become more interested in history. They need to become more interested in science. They need to become more interested in mathematics. They need to become more interested in culture and literature and everything. All of the soft sciences as well, if we are to make peace with and get along with AI. So we need to make sure that we are doing things that make a difference. And for the leaders behind either a business or a museum, it starts with figuring out exactly what you're trying to do and then pursuing it like you're killing snakes.

Speaker B: That's words to live by and a great way to wrap this up, Bob. So love this conversation. Congrats again on the book. Where can people find out more about you, the book, and everything else you're doing?

Speaker C: Well, if they, uh, if they go to bobrodgers.com they can find out how to buy the book. They can find out more about, about that, more about Deep Story. And also if they go to company website, B R C, like Burning Rubber Company. That's not what it sounds. Stands for B R C W E B dot com. You can read a little bit about, uh, the history of the company, some of the things we've achieved and the ways we've achieved it. And hopefully you'll pick up some ideas that'll help you in whatever it is that you're trying to do.

Speaker B: That's awesome. I'll definitely have that in the shout out. So, Bob, um, thank you again for your time. Really appreciate you and continued success in everything you're doing. Thanks again for being here.

Speaker C: Thank you, Michael. Before we leave this, though, I think we all ought, your viewers and your listeners all ought to understand how hard you work to make this show look so easy to put on. And we all owe you a, uh, thank you for doing this work. It's meaningful, it helps people, and I think you actually do make a difference in what people do. And for that, we all applaud you.

Speaker B: Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Breakfast Leadership Show. If today's conversation resonated with you, we invite you to explore the Breakfast Leadership Operating System, a structured approach that increases decision velocity, clarifies accountability, and stabilizes execution across leadership teams. Leaders can learn more and schedule an executive diagnostic by visiting breakfastleadership.com until next time, keep leading with clarity.