Investing for Purpose and Profit | Jen McCain, Irie Capital

Speaker A: Hi, I'm Luke Hanson MacDonald, and welcome back to beyond the Family Business, A, uh, podcast where we discuss the world of family enterprise. Today's guest is Jen McCain. She's a proud maritimer from Florenceville, New Brunswick, and a member of one of Canada's most prolific family businesses, McCain Foods. This episode is made in collaboration with Canadian family offices and is sponsored by BMO Private Wealth. As a client myself, I've seen firsthand how they can help families like mine navigate the future. So there were three main takeaways for me. First of all, we discuss the importance of ownership as a skill set. Jen is very passionate about this concept and how you need to be proactive and intentional as an owner. And there's a great deal of responsibility that comes with this role. So you need to be constantly practicing and improving over time. So next we discuss family values. Where do they come from? Are they inherited? Are they taught as well? How do they develop over time? And third, we discuss purpose driven investing. For example, Jen has recently become the co anchor in the 51's fund number three. Uh, this is an investment fund focused on female entrepreneurs and it's largely supported by a huge group of co anchors that are all female business leaders. Jen discusses why she believes that purpose investing does not need to sacrifice returns. And in fact, when done well, purpose and profit can reinforce each other. All right, this is beyond the family business. Let's jump into it. Who are you, where are you from and what do you do?

Speaker B: Uh, who am I? Well, I'm, my name is Jen McCain. Uh, I am from Florenceville, New Brunswick, a very, very small town in New Brunswick. Born in Grand Falls. So proud maritimer. Uh, that is a title you cannot take away from me. Despite living in Toronto now. Uh, uh, and I get to the east coast as much as humanly possible. And what do I do? My new favorite saying is I'm a stay at home parent with five jobs. So I can describe those five jobs, um, throughout, uh, the interview and maybe, uh, speak to, I, um, guess the impact that each of those five jobs has. Um, but I'll park it for there for now.

Speaker A: Cool. I like it. It's a cliffhanger that people will slowly find out more if they listen to the whole episode.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A: Um, so why don't we start off there? I mean, I think everybody knows your family business and what it is, but, uh, I'm sure a lot of people don't know your own story. So maybe could we start off with sort of know what is your background? Did you Go to university, you know, uh, if. So, what did you study and how did you get into the business?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm happy to share, and I think, uh, I think sharing my own story is something, um, that's important because you can get kind of caught up in the story of the family. Being part of a large, enterprising family that has, you know, significant roots in Atlantic Canada. So, uh, I think I've always been focused on carving my own path, um, ever since I was very little. So, uh, as I said, grew up in Atlantic Canada, spent most of my childhood in Ontario. So as soon as humanly possible, I got back to the East Coast. I am a proud Dell alum. Um.

Speaker A: Oh, awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah, I took business management, um, so didn't stray too far from sort of the family calling, if you will, but, uh, did my undergrad at Dell, a business management degree, uh, and then had a brief stint out of school, a little bit of experience, and then decided I wasn't educated enough. So I went back to the east coast, but in the US and in my master's, uh, of business in Simmons University in Boston, um, and there I majored in CSR and sustainability. So I kind of formed an early view. Um, I would say it was an inherited view of community, but I always had a strong sort of social calling, um, and definition of purpose. And I got, uh, sort of a lot of clarity around how sustainability and CSR can be part of my life, part of sort of the Jen McCain story and how I can weave that into the various, um, functions that I play today. So that's still a strong part of how I orient myself.

Speaker A: Cool. I'm definitely coming back to that point. But just to keep going on your journey, I guess. So you graduate from school, uh, from your master's. Uh, Boston is an awesome city. If I was ever going to live anywhere, uh, in the U.S. i think Boston may be the number one city. I just love. I love that place. Um, what did you do after that? Where did you sort of focus your time next?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm glad we share a love for. For Boston. Maybe the Red Sox, too. A lot of the East Coasters, you know, it's either it's not the Jays, often, it's the Red Sox. I lived across from Fenway park, so, um. Uh, it was a fun couple years. Um, yeah, I. When I got out of school, I went into consulting. That helped with a really broad view of, uh, businesses and, um, getting exposure there to a ton of different industries. And I quickly kind of learned well, the secret to Consulting is. You should know what you're talking about. So in order to do so, I figured I should start my own business so that I had that lived experience in order to say X, Y, Z. Um, I think having that experience is important. So, uh, I scanned the landscape of things that really excited me. And at the time it was pet services. Uh, I built out three units in a franchise. I'm not part of that franchise anymore. I rolled them out subsequently in their independent locations, one of which is in Halifax. So it is Halifax.

Speaker A: Oh, really?

Speaker B: Yeah. Halifax is only downtown dog daycare, the most premier downtown dog daycare there is to offer. It's called Nooshy.

Speaker A: And where is it?

Speaker B: It is beside Alexander Keith's, uh, brewery. So it actually is in the old Alexander Keith's house. So, uh, it's got canines and character is the sort of, the long and short of it. Um, two things that I love. So I still run that still have a team that, um, helps do a lot of the heavy lifting. Um, and then kind of in my late 20s, got called into more responsibility. Uh, and so I represent my family's interest or, uh, partially represent my family's interest, um, in McCain Foods, our operating business. So I sit on our holding company board. Uh, I lead a lot of our shareholder engagement work. So m thinking about the next gen as a next gen and how we want to position ourselves over the next 70 years. We're almost 70 years, which is a big milestone. Um, and then, yeah, it's pretty significant and special. I can't believe it, actually. Um, and then wear a couple other hats that I now juggle on sort of a day to day basis too.

Speaker A: Cool. And where do you sit in? How many siblings do you have? And where are you in the age of your siblings?

Speaker B: I am a middle child, uh, and totally have accepted that characteristically. Probably have, uh, similar, uh, traits that any middle child has. I have a younger, uh, brother who I believe you have met and has been on the podcast with you as well. Um, I, uh, won't say save the best for last, because that's my sister, my older sister. So if you want three for three, Luke, you're gonna have to call up, call up Sarah.

Speaker A: Awesome. I like it. Um, cool. So, uh, you got to do your own business and then, you know, ultimately rejoined the family business. I went through something similar, which was always, I feel like an important part of my journey, but without putting my own experience, uh, or, you know, sort of projecting my own experience. What was the benefit of doing that first, you know, versus just automatically jumping into the family business.

Speaker B: I think defining yourself and your individual identity outside of the system is a really important piece of being part of a large family business. Um, and so I think kind of figuring out what you get excited about, getting a degree of independent experience, meeting new people, developing your own frames of reference. Um, uh, I certainly feel as though that was a valuable move. And I think, you know, it develops a strong sense of merit and purpose. Right. I don't think that neither of us believe in a concept of inheritocracy. You have to show a level of responsibility, uh, at least in my sibling group, around making, um, sure that you're doing something. It doesn't have to be anything crazy, but you have to be doing something. Doing nothing is not an option. Um, and if that something is outside the business, that's a great foundational, uh, way to position yourself. And then later in life, if you get to add that value in the family enterprise in some capacity, I think both the family and the business benefit from that.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, very succinctly put. Um, I definitely now, at this age appreciate a lot more, more the importance of that stage because I did kind of get to be myself, so to speak. And then, you know, now I feel like that version of myself has come out in, in our family business in, in an authentic way. But one thing I also have to admit is it took time for me to realize that. And in fact, when I switched from having my own business to working in the business, there was a period there of sort of identity crisis almost of me being like, you know, uh, I'm not going to live up to be. You know, everyone is saying I'm the next CEO of Clearwater, which I didn't really think was going to be the outcome I was going to have, but it's constantly projected onto me and, and whatnot. What was your journey like, you know, going from your own thing, your own business, and, you know, something you're comfortable with, that it probably is most, you're in it in your most authentic form because it's something you created versus going and, you know, joining the family business. What was that like for you as far as finding your own place and your own merit in that business?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's always expectations that will be cast on you by folks that, that, that are outside of the system. Right. Um, and those could be any given stakeholders. So I think really understanding, um, uh, understanding where your value is, what your drivers are, um, uh, where you want to play a role is super Important because then when you come into that role, you'll be more successful if you're. If you're put into a role, um, that is just a position, and you're not quite sure how to execute that position effectively. Like, you're. You're not setting yourself up for success. And you're going to feel a lot of pressure because when your name is on the door, you have to work twice as hard. Um, so I think there's various. As you know, Luke, there's various paths to entry, to being part of families, um, in those ecosystems, rather at the operating level or rather at the ownership level. And the ownership level is a hat that I knew I would always have to wear. And so I've been really considered around, um, practicing that hat. Um, not to say that there isn't other, uh, avenues that are, uh, just as justified, uh, just as valued, um, and work for other people. But what I said is like, how do I be the best possible owner that I can, knowing that that is a lifelong role and is one that comes with a tremendous amount of responsibility? Um, and I always say ownership is a skill set. Like any skill or any function, it has to be developed, has to be flexed and learned over time.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, agreed. It is being a good steward and owner, you know, steward, ah, of Atlantic Canadian business. Steward of, you know, Canadian, uh, business. It definitely, if you are not practicing it and thinking about it proactively, it can go sideways, uh, frankly. Um, how did you learn it? You know, I mean, I think your dad is, uh, certainly he was a huge influence on my family. Like, that sort of was where we got the idea to start a family office. But, you know, was he a big mentor or did you have other mentors? How did you sort of figure out that role as an owner?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think being. Being a member of the third generation means that you are three times removed from the founder. So, you know, you have the G1 that has a strong operator hat, and then G2 likely has, uh, quite, uh, a significant operational role or exposure, but has that. That sort of capacity to think about being an. And do things like set up the family office to your point and think about succession and think about planning. So you start to have that muscle, and then by the time you get to the third generation, you've kind of evolved away from, um. In most cases, I think when there's multiple family members, of which there are many in my family, you sort of really focus on that ownership hat. And, um, I think my dad has done that. I know it maybe is a bit, um, silly to say, but he's certainly a mentor to me, to Luke, so I'm glad he's been a mentor to you. Um, I think he's modeled having been an operator, but being now a really effective owner. Um, that's the number one mandate that he has and has encouraged all of his kids, uh, to act, um, uh, with a level of responsibility that comes with ownership. Uh, and he's also modeled that. Which is super helpful.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really interesting point that I guess I knew, but I hadn't really thought about the idea of how that evolves by generation because my dad was first generation and I have often observed, like, I have more in common with my kids in the sense that of course I grew up in privilege, like they will. But also, you're right, there's this more mature family business that the concept of ownership, rather than being the, you know, entrepreneur in the weeds and whatnot. And it is definitely a thing that sometimes is a disconnect where my dad has. He doesn't know any other reality because he just, he built this business on his own versus, you know, I'm now much more focused on the next generations and, you know, that sort of lens. So that's a, that's a really, that's an interesting insight. And I don't, even though I guess I am living it, I don't know if I really thought about it that way. Uh, that'll give me something to chew on after, uh, this podcast. Um, so building on that, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about was values and family values. And it sort of goes along with that theme of becoming a more sophisticated, multi generational family business. And it's something I have struggled with, you know, myself of just. You have multiple people around the table, not quite as many family members as you do, but, you know, multiple people with different interests, etc. But there is some fabric of family values that does connect us, I guess. What has been your experience with, you know, figuring out those family values? Perhaps they already existed from the previous generation, but presumably they also need to evolve over time. So, you know, I guess what has been your experience with building those and, and ensuring they stay relevant?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, values are lived, not just said. Right. So I think a lot of it comes from experience. And frankly, there's a bit of geographics at play. So. I was born in a very small community. I lived in a very small community. Um, I'm actually looking at this picture here, Luke. Cause this is from that small Community here, if I can get it off the wall. But this is me in Florenceville, New Brunswick, probably in 1994.

Speaker A: Um, sick shorts.

Speaker B: Yeah. I look the same as I did back when I was five. So that's a cool hat.

Speaker A: That would have been back when I lived in Toronto in 2012. That would have been a very popular hipster hat.

Speaker B: Yeah, I really. If anyone knows where to find this app, please contact me. Um, yeah, but like, you know, the way that I grew up was in the community with a juice box in hand and like a balloon. So I was a happy kid. Uh, I was drinking the juice quite literally. And what that meant, what was in that juice box. I'm going to take this analogy and run with it was, um, community, uh, and hard work, um, and care, like in the products that we make. And when you live on one side of the river and you see where all that happens on the other side of the river, like you cannot grow up with any other value than community because you're in that community. Um, so that's the sort of, that's the foundation. And then a lot of those other values get layered in over time. Um, and I am so appreciative for the experience that I had, um, as a small kid, uh, in New Brunswick in very important years in my life in early childhood development, like having a, ah, very strong value system, um, I think has made me who I am today. And I'm just trying to nurture that. Um, uh, we don't make the juices anymore. But that's okay. I still know the purpose.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, uh, speaking of your guys products, I like a fundamental childhood memory for me is the McCain cakes.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: And I still, still to this day, we'll have a party in the summer or something and some person will show up with one of those cakes and it's, it's always a hit.

Speaker B: So yeah, you cannot, you cannot take Deep and Delicious out of the freezer section because it's like, it's coveted and it's nostalgic for, for, um, I dropped the picture. I got to keep this up. So, so coveted that I need to keep it safe here. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's an iconic product where even if you innovated it, which we have, frankly, like, there's still going to be nostalgia for the original product.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, I love it. Um, but yeah. So, uh, back to what we were talking about. Um, so is it a, is it an ongoing discussion with you and your siblings about what those values are. And I guess where I'm going with this is, you know, we do a family retreat every year where we basically go off site and we have a day that's all business, more or less, and then we have a day where we just spend time together. And it's a chance for us, you know, as we get older and I spend more time with my kids and my, you know, my brother and his partner spend time together, and my parents are getting older, this sort of brings us all together to be a family again. And one of the topics this year was, you know, talking about the next 10 years of our family business. And. And, you know, so as a result, the values and sort of what we care about came up as a big part of that discussion. And my parents really want to see me and my brother take on more and more of that responsibility because they're getting older. And so, I guess, you know, do you. Is that a. Is that an open dialogue with you and your siblings, or is that something that is naturally, you know, organically morphing over time, or what's your own experience with it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would say that, um, like, values are inherited or formed. Right. So, like, we, between me, my brother and sister, uh, have very strong values that we've, uh, I think inherited from. From our parents and from our grandparents. Uh, and we continue to tone and develop those values, but then we actually explicitly talk about it. So we get together and we do talk about it, and probably. Probably similar exercise that you've done. And ironically, we independently went away and sort of had a stack of cards, and you have to take six of those cards and say, these are my six values. And four out of the six, there was. There is a common denominator between four to six of them across, uh, all three of us.

Speaker A: Oh, cool.

Speaker B: So that. Yeah, like, that's a good way to do it. Yeah, it's helpful. Right? There's only. There's a few adjectives that you can talk about. You know, stewardship, community, integrity. Um, where I think it's super interesting is what that word means, like, where the definition takes you, because it's slight nuances in the definition of integrity or value or not value, um, or community, uh, or stewardship. The definition can vary, but, um, the fundamental values that we agree on between my dad and my siblings and I are all pretty universal in our branch or our sibling consortium, as they say.

Speaker A: Hmm. Okay. Very cool. I like that idea, too, of getting you to do it independently and then coming back to make sure that People don't just sort of say what the last person said, just copy each other. So that's uh, that's a good idea. Um, so I guess maybe building on the, you know, those values, how has that translated into your own business, ire capital? And what does that business look like today? Is that largely focused on the pet services business you were talking about or what is iri capital?

Speaker B: I guess thank you for pronouncing it correctly. In the, um, Jamaican dialect of English patois, iri means good quality or good vibes. So the literal translation of uh, iron capital is good vibe capital or good quality capital. So it implies that like I'm trying to do things a little bit differently. So it's not uh, you know, it's not an acronym or uh, sort of something that is more finance oriented. It's supposed to be intentionally in the naming, somewhat inspirational. Like it's about, um, good quality, it's about good vibes. And then that naming flows through, all the way through to my investment thesis. So this is very much like my personal Holco that I've developed that I invest out of and the lens on which I view investments, um, which to me it feels very natural. I know it's conceptually called something akin to impact investing, but essentially it's saying when you uh, are responsible for deploying capital, um, what is your obligation? Well, I believe that there's a financial return, uh, that you should be deriving from investing capital. But I also believe there should be some social benefit to investing that capital, I. E. The model that we live in, where you make capital here and deploy it over here. I think that there's a rebalancing, um, it's not a total system, um, shift. I think it's an evolution. But I would say that most next gens and have to caveat that when you are the beneficiary of having a degree of comfort, you think about, uh, how do I deploy capital in a way that is more, equal, more just and affords others comfort knowing that there is an asymmetric way, uh, that capital is deployed now, um, and it doesn't benefit everybody. So it's just, it's really a function of intentionality.

Speaker A: Very, uh, very well said. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit more about finding that balance. But first I want to talk about one of your recent investments, or I assume it's an investment. Um, congratulations. I sent it to you over email, but I saw the announcement that you're one of the co anchors of the 51 Fund 3. Um, so that looks like a unbelievable group of people that have come together to do that. Can you tell us a little bit about what is that fund and the strategy behind it?

Speaker B: Yeah, the 51 is a fascinating community. It's really a financial services platform, um, founded by some incredible females, uh, one of which sort of leads uh, the day to day operations as the CEO is Shelly. And she is a fantastic powerhouse executive. Um, but what she noticed is in her career in raising for her own uh, businesses and ventures is that in every room she went into to raise capital, she um, would not get the benefit of having uh, her companies invested to the extent that her, her male pierced it. And I don't know if that was a function of delivery, uh, or if that was a function of some uh, other factor, but it certainly wasn't merit and competency because she is, if you ever get to meet her, you'll think this person is wicked sharp and smart. But today females get 2% of venture capital funding.

Speaker A: Crazy.

Speaker B: It's not for a lack of competency, it's not for a lack of ability to execute. It's really just a reframing. And I think part of it is there's now a lot more um, focus on being able to have families and have careers. Um, so I would say it's just capital catching up. Um, and I believe in investing in the best business idea. But when things are under invested they need a community to be developed and that community is the 51. So it's essentially where capital meets community. Uh, they're running three funds on fund three and their focus is to invest in those that maybe had a harder time accessing capital to scale their businesses and particularly investing in females.

Speaker A: Cool. And so as a co anchor are you involved in any of the strategy or you, are you a passive investor in it or what's the, what's your involvement look like?

Speaker B: Well, I think one of the benefits of, of those kinds of communities is that there's a level of collaboration that you can bring to the table. So it's not simply a function of writing a check and uh, and then getting the distributions. Like you can really be plugged into the community. So they do a whole road tour where they'll go to different cities and set up multiple day events and you can meet founders, you can meet other investors, uh, you can co invest, um, uh, you can mentor. So there's a lot of ways to engage and I think that's really attractive. Right is um, it's pretty easy to write a check or fairly Easy. It's much harder to find a community in which you're comfortable writing that check. Um, and so that's really what it's about. Um, and I love community, like it's one of my values, in case that, that wasn't obvious. But uh, yeah, it certainly is the top of the list because doing things alone is great and fun. Um, but doing things together is better. Um, and doing things together with purpose and impact is even better. It's best.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker B: Better than best is best. It's best. You can cut that out of the podcast unless you want some comedic relief.

Speaker A: No, I like it. Um, so if I was uh, you know, if I'm a female entrepreneur and I want to learn more about the 51 and hopefully pitch my company, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker B: Uh, they have a uh, great uh, website where you can kind of plug in and connect with the team there. Um, you uh, could reach out to me. I'm a little slow m on my LinkedIn, uh, messages but I really try to get back to most folks that reach out. Um, the other thing that's super cool is they both invest in the venture but they also have something called Movebit51 which is essentially ah, like an incubator or accelerator for ventures to help them scale. So they're building the community and then investing it at the same time. So kind of akin to building the plane while you fly it. Right? So uh, very. Yeah and it's very like it's best in class in terms of model. So um, I quite like that about the structure as well. But I think that's the right way to do it. Right Is if you're going to build an investable universe, you better help that pipeline of companies develop. Um, because uh, as I said, fairly easy to write a check. Um, uh, what I think is required is to really help a lot of these entrepreneurs in Canada. We're in a Canada proud moment. Let's put in our capital that's social, that's expertise, that's intellectual, that's uh, referent, uh, power. Let's get all those things in the capital stack and launch great Canadian companies.

Speaker A: Absolutely. No, that's bravo um, for you doing that because I, uh, think when times are tough and you know, uh, I think the last few years things have gotten tighter around the world. Uh, this type of, you know, impact investing unfortunately is often the thing that gets cut back. So uh, you know, hats off to you for continuing to, to invest with that purpose because I think not everybody's doing that at this moment, a lot of people are focusing on sort of what is purely a good financial, uh, play rather than something that's going to really drive, you know, other benefits to the community. So. That's awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah. I, um, should, I should say Luke. I, I, I, I'm a firm believer that that purpose does not have to be at the concession of profit because I think if you're doing things with, with purpose, profit will follow. So like I, I want to create the, the expectation, which I think I've had to develop a more pragmatic view over time is that good investing should be investing for purposes and like those metrics that you focus on will unlock value, like financial value.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. Otherwise it, it can't be a charity forever. Right. So it, it has to have that balance. Which is my next question, uh, was how do you, you know, you are in vet, you're as you said, impact investing or you're investing with purpose. It's something that you know, I, I care about personally. Um, younger Luke was highly ideological. As I get older, you know, the sands of time wear me down to be more capitalistic perhaps. Um, but it's something that I, I continue to revisit, especially having kids. It's, you know, it's something that's made me think about it a lot more of like I have a unique position and a unique responsibility to my community and Atlantic Canada is not a big place and it's not um, you know, a massive market. So it's even more important that I am thoughtful of our investments and the impact of those investments. So it's a constant duality in my mind. Um, do you have any advice for me about how you find that balance and you know, constantly look at those two different perspectives of what is financially prudent and what is uh, you know, actually aligning with your purpose.

Speaker B: What immediately comes to mind is that you're already impact investing in, in focusing on Atlantic Canada because that's place based investing. So investing with purpose in certain regions, there's no concessions there. You build great Canadian companies in Atlantic Canada, so there's no concession there. But that's a fantastic way to align values and purpose in a place based way. Um, so I think it's really around. I, like you have become jaded, uh, and um, more attuned to how the world functions. Uh, and you got to fit into that box. I believe in changing systems from the inside out. So you got to fit into that box somewhat. The financial sector, uh, markets are not changing, but you can Expand that box in terms of how you think. So I think that will really create more change. And so if you go into, uh, into meetings with your bankers and say, I really want to focus my portfolio on investing companies that have an Atlantic coast presence, like, that's an impact lens. That's a geographic filter. Right. Um, you could say, I really want to focus on companies that, uh, are transitioning the food system in a more sustainable way. That is perhaps a social imperative, but it's also a business imperative. Because, by the way, if we don't transition the food systems to be more sustainable, they'll implode, uh, at sort of the, uh, soonest possible moment. Because we've just extracted resources for years and years and years and years. Years. There's a certain limit to those resources. We're going to meet it. So good investing is sustainable investing. And, uh, investing with purpose is also investing for profit, uh, effectively. Um, and so if you can find, uh, a way to develop your own impact thesis that does not have to be concessionary, you're good.

Speaker A: Awesome. All right, uh, I got two last questions. First one, your family is prolific when it comes to community giving. So not just, you know, impact investing, but just actual philanthropy. Um, how does that fit into your, you know, range of activities that you focus on? Uh, where does impact investing stop and straight philanthropy begins and sort of how do you meld those two, uh, important activities?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's some situations where there's only going to be a social benefit, not necessarily financial one, and that's entirely appropriate. And, uh, I think the view there is to grant capital with no expectation of return. And that's really what philanthropic. Not philanthropic, but that's what, um, at least was the early stage of investing, um, philanthropically was to. Or into charities or not for profits was to give you a check and expect nothing in return. And sometimes they're just like, there isn't a cash flow or revenue stream associated with it, and that's fine. Um, and sometimes, you know, sometimes there's ways to be a bit more creative in models. Um, but sometimes there's not. So I would say, like, it's. I view capital as a tool, and within that tool, there's various, um, things that you can sort of leverage and change and tweak, um, because it's a toolkit that can be deployed in various ways with various expectations. So the way I view things is, okay, well, I expect this return here, and maybe I expect this return here, but I know exactly why I'm investing in the ways that I'm investing and I know exactly what I'm going to get out of it. So having clarity is critical.

Speaker A: Mm, mhm. Okay, well said. Last question. At the very beginning, you brought up, uh, the fact that since you were young, you've been sort of crafting your own identity and you know, the challenge you can face when you're trying to create your own identity with this large, uh, you know, uh, the baggage of your family's success and your brand and all those things. Where do you, as Jen McCain, want to create a lasting legacy or you know, what do you want your legacy to be? Um, in, you know, a few decades from now, uh, appreciating your family is going to do many incredible things. But I guess where, where do you really want to focus your time in, you know, the decades ahead?

Speaker B: I like to think that I have a long Runway ahead of me, Luke. I know I'm getting older, but, um, legacy always implies that you're at the tail end of things. I certainly am not. But I mean right now, and I'm sure you resonate with this, is when my kids can articulate sentences, I want them to say that they're proud of the work that, that they see me doing, that they see their mom doing, that they see our family doing, um, and they're proud to be part of that. Like that, to me is a definition of success or legacy, uh, is that they view themselves as, um, excited, uh, by that sort of prospect. Ah, of continuing to be, uh, part of a really beautiful story that, that I think I've, I'm just the beneficiary of.

Speaker A: Awesome. Uh, do you have kids right now?

Speaker B: I do. I've got, uh. Yeah. The reason why I look older than I did two and a half years ago is because I've got a two and a half year old and a nine month old, so.

Speaker A: Oh, wow. Awesome. Good for you.

Speaker B: Yeah, you, you do too.

Speaker A: I have a five year old and a two year old and the two year old is a, uh, she has very strong opinions about everything. Yeah, but it's awesome.

Speaker B: We're in the thick of it, Luke. We're in the thick of it, that's for sure.

Speaker A: No, you look great, considering. I'm sure you're not getting full nights of sleep.

Speaker B: I appreciate that.

Speaker A: Cool. Um, thank you so much for your time. Uh, whenever I talk to anyone in your family, you're always very generous and gracious with your time. And I always learned something new. So, uh, I know my audience will really appreciate this. So once again, thank you so much. This was awesome.

Speaker B: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.