Lawyers Never Become Successful Partners in the Age of AI without Human Judgement with Sunny Mann

Speaker A: This recording was made on 22 May 2026.

Speaker B: You should constantly feel out of your depth. I had consistently and constantly felt out of my depth throughout my career. You've got to see your clients first and foremost as people, as humans, and you got to invest in getting to know them personally as well as professionally. You can't do that by cutting corners. You've got to pay attention. One of the things that I wish I had appreciated so sooner in my

Speaker A: career, this idea of Sonny Mann is the Global chair of Baker McKenzie based in London. He is the former Global Chair of the firm's market leading international trade practice group. In his role as Global Chair, Sonny takes great pride in representing, advocating and championing the firm that he has called home for 25 years. His primary focus is on developing and strengthening the firm's relationships with its numerous top tier clients and he spends a large proportion of his time on the road. He regularly appears across global media and can be found speaking at major global events. He also continues to play a meaningful role in the direction and custody of the firm's culture, an area of passion for him for over two decades.

Speaker C: What's your one golden rule to being a successful partner?

Speaker B: Keep the human at the heart of everything that we do. It drives you forward. What we do is for the benefit of colleagues, for the next generation, for our clients. What would be your advice there? What would be your golden rule? Let's get a bit of a gem from you.

Speaker C: My golden rule was actually welcome to another episode of Beyond Billables, Lessons from Top Law Firm Partners. The podcasts where successful renowned law firm partners hopefully tell us the secrets of that success. I'm Stephen Rodney, founder of Integrate Coaching where we produce tailor made lateral integration programs for new partners joining new law firms and um, previously a headhunter at Fox Rodney Search Ltd. Just before we go on, just to say that I'm getting very good feedback on the podcast. So if you have any suggestions of future guests, please do Message me on LinkedIn and please do press like and subscribe on whatever platform you use to listen or watch. I'm really delighted today that we're joined by Sonny Mann, who's the Global chair of Baker and McKenzie, which as I'm sure everyone will know is one of the largest and ah, most prestigious law firms, um, in the world with 13,000 employees based over roughly 70 offices global. So a very warm welcome to you Sonny.

Speaker B: Delighted to be joining you here today. Stephen, thank you for having me along.

Speaker C: No, it's a pleasure, I have to say. Actually When I. When I saw 13,000 employees, I double checked, actually, just to make sure it was really 13,000. Because that is a. That's a very large number. But I am right in that, I hope, am I?

Speaker B: It's a sizable number. Obviously, you wouldn't believe me if I said I know every single one of them, but I have got to know a lot of the people across the firm. You know, even since becoming chair, I've been to some. So I've just come back this morning, uh, from Amsterdam. That was office number 28 in my almost five months in the chair role. So I'm getting to know a lot of people out there.

Speaker C: Good. Okay. So, Sunny, although I've read about some of this in print previously, it would be great to hear from you, kind of live, as it were, about what your route to being a lawyer was and partnership, why you chose to be a trade lawyer, and why and how you came to stand for global chairs. There are only four questions in one to begin with.

Speaker B: We'll try and roll, uh, all of the answers into one as well then. Listen, I'm sure you've heard this quite commonly, but I think I ended up in the law very much by accident. So growing up, you know, Indian parents, or my Indian parents, they were immigrants over in the 50s into the UK and I think if you speak to a lot of Indians of my generation, their parents were desperately hoping their kids would end up being doctors. But, yeah, medicine was just not going to work for me. So I chose law as a bit of a negotiating tactic. I said, listen, medic, that ain't gonna work. Let's go for law instead. And they said, okay, that's good enough for us. I think my dad is finally making his peace with the fact that his son is not a doctor. Uh, but as it happens, I've got two sisters. We've got, like, a doctor and an engineer and a lawyer in the family, and I seriously help. Listen, you've got the holy trinity of professions covered, so you should be happy enough. But, um, I ended up in the law by accident. But as soon as I hit law school, I realized I loved learning about the law. I loved my time at university. I did my LLB at King's in London, and then I went over to Paris, and out at the Sorbonne, I did the metrics, the equivalent, out in France. And the idea was I could have qualified either in the UK or in France. But I suppose that, uh, background started giving me that initial flavor for wanting to do something a little bit more global, a Bit more international, decided to come back to the UK and I joined Baker. So I'm Baker Life. I've been with Baker MacKenzie now for over 26 years. So how did I end up in trade law again? A little bit by accident. I started life as an antitrust lawyer, Baker McKenzie. But then I started getting a little bit more exposed to bits of trade law. You know, we've got a market leading trade practice in the US and they started looping me into a number of their matters. I moved out to the States on secondment. I did a year in D.C. and then a year in New York. And then that was my initial taste of what it really could be like to do trade law. Yes, absolutely. You got the technical issues associated with being a lawyer, but you don't have to follow the news because as a sanctions lawyer, as an export control, as a broader trade lawyer, you have to know what's going on out there in the world. That was my first flavor of sort of having that, uh, ability to combine the conventional world of law with geopolitics and international affairs. And it really got me motoring. So I then spoke to the team at Baker McKenzie, the partners in London, and I came back as a senior associate. I said I'd love to play my part in developing a trade practice over here in London and in Europe. And that has developed into one of the largest, if not the largest, trade practice in both London and in Europe. So that was my route into trade law as well.

Speaker C: Stephen, I have to tell you a funny story, which I don't think my ex wife will be watching this so I can tell it. Um, uh, so when I got married to her, she was Sikh girl from Westmoreland. I am, um, so her mother and we literally. I got on really well. I loved her mother. I still do. Just before the wedding, I found out that she was introducing my to be wife to a doctor. And I said to her, what's going on, Mum? I thought we really got on. She said, yes, you do, but it's my responsibility. There is a doctor out there, it's my responsibility to try and get my daughter to marry a doctor.

Speaker B: I really like you. Absolutely. There's still a hierarchy and that exists today as well. Yes.

Speaker C: Anyway, so you become a trade lawyer and I would have thought that is as you said. And there's so much geopolitics and obviously in the last 10 years in particular, huge amounts of everything going on. So how did that lead you then to some knowledge of the Baker McKenzie kind of how things work? Not that recent knowledge to be standing for Global Chairman. I, uh, don't. From my memory, there aren't that many people from the uk, if any. I can't remember who've been Global Chair or recently anyway.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's right. So, Stephen, so, you know, the practice, you know, was incredibly busy if you think about the types of issues that trade lawyers have been having to support clients. You had Brexit, you know, that started a decade ago. You have Russia's invasion of Ukraine and all of the flurry of sanctions packages that were landing almost on an hourly basis in the early days post invasion. You've got tensions between China and the West. You've got all of the global tariff wars that have been triggered initially by the first Trump administration, but then turbocharged at the second Trump administration. You got then issues like Venezuela and the Middle East. It's been a constant flurry of issue for trade laws to be advising companies on. And the biggest impact that companies have had to navigate when it comes to geopolitics is the impact on trade, the ability to get goods and services across border. So the practice was incredibly busy. And so when the opportunity came up, when my predecessor, Milton Cheng, said he was stepping down, that's when a few people spoke to me and said, look, something, why don't you think about it? You're great with clients. You clearly are all in on building teams around you. You'd be a good fit for it. So it got me thinking. And you always end up asking yourself that very simple question that is sort of an locks your thinking. It's would I regret it if I didn't go for it? And I knew I would. So I was all in. I went for it. And, um, here I am, I'm now in. In the seat I'm in that global chair role. I've been up and running now for close to five months. So it wasn't by any means an easy decision initially, Stephen, because perhaps a little bit on the younger side, thinking about going into that global leadership role. The practice was, you know, very much all guns blazing. It was motoring, but no regrets. I'm in loving it. Every day brings a new opportunity, a new challenge as well. But I'm absolutely finding the fun in it and no regrets at all. Good.

Speaker C: Okay. So from your point of view, you know what, what is being a successful partner, apart from billing a lot, how have your skills helped you do that?

Speaker B: We try and break that down into different elements. So I think on the client front, it's all about developing those relationships. Yeah. You've got to see your clients first and foremost as people, humans. And you've got to invest in getting to know them personally as well as professionally. I think you've got to really sustain and nurture those relationships over years. You can't do that by cutting corners. You've got to pay attention and you've got to lend it a degree of humanity as well. Stephen.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: So I think, you know, you've got to be mindful of the fact that with your client relationships, it is first and foremost a very personal and very human relationship. I think then there's an element that is related to your team, the people around you. And, you know, for me, I've really enjoyed that process of building teams around me. What I love is the fact that as a lawyer over the last 26 years, I've never really had to do anything alone. I've done it as part of a team. You're only as good as the team around you. And so I think a key facet of being a successful partner is mentoring, is coaching, is developing that, uh, talent, is being a team player. You know, you can be the biggest rock star partner, but if you don't know how to collaborate, if you don't know how to bring that next generation up through as well, you're not going to go very far. So I think the people element is critical. And then I suppose the third one I'd add is about yourself, how you develop as a professional, as a person. And there's one theme that consistently comes out in my mind, but also in a number of discussions I've been having with colleagues around the globe, is that sense of curiosity. And it's that curiosity to want to try new things. It's that curiosity to learn about Aries and fields, uh, that are, uh, perhaps beyond your scope, to stretch your boundaries. And I think that curiosity is sometimes undervalued. But in a world where things are moving incredibly quickly with AI and technology, curiosity is going to be critical to success as well.

Speaker C: You mentioned a couple of interesting points. You mentioned AI, which is, I think, going to be a constant theme. You also mentioned at the beginning about sense of humanity with your clients. Could you just expand on what you mean by sense of humanity with your clients?

Speaker B: Actually, I think you can draw those themes together, both AI and humanity even, because if you look at where the legal industry is trending, of course AI is going to play a big part. You've got clients that are demanding it. There are a number of law firms, including ours, that are embracing the Opportunity and the challenge, and they're moving forward with this. But you know what? The other thing that really comes up in client discussions is absolutely, AI is going to be critical to delivering a service that is, yes, much more efficient, but you are still very much going to need that human judgment that AI cannot provide. And so I think a strong lawyer in the future, you know, it's still going to need to lean into the human side of the law. That includes the human judgment on the legal issues that clients are consulting you on. Um, but also it comes back to that point of the relationship you develop with a client.

Speaker C: One.

Speaker B: It's a very personal one. And so that humanity still has to come through because clients are still navigating complex, stressful situations. Who do they want to turn to? External counsel and advisors who are still providing that humanity through those difficult situations as well.

Speaker C: So by that also, I think you also mean that, correct me if I'm wrong, that, yeah, your client, you've got to try and get on with your clients. I think there's lawyers that I used to deal with as a headhunter, kind of didn't quite realize that. They thought, well, you know, I'm a really good lawyer, so I should be able to get work. And I used to say, well, there's a lot of very good lawyers out there. Why are they going to give you work if they don't know you, if they don't like you? And at the end of the day, if they're going to be spending months or years working with you on a transaction or something, don't they have to like you? Do you think that's right, or have I overstated that? Uh, no, you're not.

Speaker B: You've absolutely nailed it. If I take the example of the Russia, Ukraine crisis, look, Stephen, you know, that was incredibly stressful for pretty much every major corporate player out in the world there. Uh, because fundamentally, what they were having to do is a scenario had arisen that businesses are not really foreseen or prepared for. And pretty much overnight, they were having to make some instant judgment calls on weather and how to pull out of what was then the 11th largest economy in the world. That includes with respect to your people, it includes with respect to provision of goods and services, procurement. It includes where your data resides, where your funds reside. And these are huge things to navigate. So, incredibly stressful for the C suite and the business leadership, but also the legal teams and the compliance teams that were mandated to drive forward whatever the strategy was. So, uh, in situations like that, one of the key Things accelerates, had to do. And this is one thing that I'm really proud of our team of having done this. It's to stand side by side with the client, to take some of the pressure off their shoulders and to help them navigate that as calmly as possible in as collected a manner as possible. And that requires humanity. It requires that real personal engagement as well.

Speaker C: And do you think that you're, um, being an international trade lawyer and being used to being. Dealing with lots of different cultures? And has that helped as global chair? I thought it does. Because you're used to dealing with different kinds of people.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But I don't think it's just helpful for me as global chair, if I think about what even junior lawyers do within our firm. They are dealing every single day, if not every single hour. You talked about the fact that we've got over 70 locations across over 45 different markets. And Stephen, every single day, if not every single hour, even our junior lawyers are, uh, having to liaise with, deal with, speak with, communicate with clients in different markets, but also colleagues in different markets as well. So you absolutely need to have that cultural, nuanced understanding of how best to communicate, how best to get, you know, the most out of a relationship. So it is hugely important, you know, a big part of being a global citizen today, and that's what we encourage all of our lawyers and our professionals to be a big part of that is understanding different ways of thinking, different ways of working so that you can get the most out of that relationship.

Speaker C: And, um, with the younger lawyers, I've had other people on the podcast who've been worried that younger lawyers, because of the way that social media works. I've had someone who said, look, I just suggested that one of my associates rang up a client and they got all, well, surely I have to WhatsApp them first or email them first. I can't just ring them up. And that really, that really worried that person. Does that concern you at all about younger lawyers and then being them being able to develop the kind of human relationship with clients that you've done?

Speaker B: I don't worry about it, but you need to be very intentional about weaving that into how you develop and train that next generation? I think Covid probably didn't help a huge amount when people ended up almost retreating into their little cocoons at home. That led to a couple of consequences. It meant that you weren't interacting with other professionals quite as much. It also meant that you developed this virtual, uh, way of communicating, which meant that you would set up a time in advance to jump on a link to join a conversation. Whereas before that there was much more of a style of, you know, picking up the phone and communicating and having quick conversations. I think that's beginning to turn again. We're seeing more presence in offices and so people are operating as part of teams again and some of those human skills are coming to the fore much more. But also people are picking up the phone much more than they used to as well. So I do think we are turning that corner.

Speaker C: Right, good. Okay, that's good to hear. And do you think just on what makes a successful partner? I mean, there's been a lot of talk recently about the billable hour finally kind of being killed off by really by AI. How do you think if a. Do you agree that that is likely to happen in the next, let's say five to ten years? Because, you know, the billable hours, um, there have been lots and lots of tales of it being killed off in the last 30 years, but it hasn't been. And if it does, then how will that change? Will that would change at all the elements of success that, you know, you

Speaker B: talked undoubtedly, and there's certainly no doubt in my mind we are going to see a material shift away from the billable hour. And we at Baker McKenzie are certainly talking about that. We're preparing for it and we embrace that opportunity. Now as it is, many of our practices, if not in fact, I'd say all of our practices have already started that journey and that transition towards alternative fee arrangements. And so when can't talk to us about this, we are certainly not only more ready to have that conversation because we've built up that experience, but we're up for that conversation as well. You're right. As we do transition to a, um, more AI and technology centric way of supporting clients, that by definition will also mean that you've got to think about pricing. So I never really have a conversation with clients about AI without also talking about pricing in tandem as well. So yes, I think we are going to see a very material shift in that direction. Then there'll probably be some matters that will still be more, you know, suited towards a billboard, our style model, where it really is hard to demarcate, you know, the parameters of the project or the direction of travel because you can't always predict what's going to happen. But, you know, certainly most of my client conversations at the moment are premise on the fact that we are going to be shifting towards an alternative pricing

Speaker C: model and they seem keen on that because in the past, uh, Platter often talks about it, but actually when it's come to it, they've kind of stuck with the bill of hours the thing they know. You're right.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think clients did historically struggle with that idea of shifting away from blah, uh, blah. But I understand that, you know, that's, that's how our generation of lawyers were brought up. It's how we were trained. And so it does require a shift in our thinking, whether you are on the advisor side or on the client side. And we were on that journey together. And what I'm finding is the more you have a good relationship with your client, the more you can actually brainstorm and discuss and find solutions, the better that relationship will develop in terms of evolution when it comes to things like AI and pricing.

Speaker C: Okay, all right. So sticking with, you know, what makes a successful partner, obviously you've made a transition from partner to global leader. Yeah. Um, and I would have thought, especially in a firm as large and diverse as Bakers, that must feel like a big challenge for you or for anyone. Um, so what are the transferable skills that can be applied to, to both. Yeah.

Speaker B: Stephen. Yes, it is a challenge. My new role is a challenge. But I would have said that about every role that I've stepped, uh, up into throughout my 26 year career journey. And I think it'd be really quite worrying if any leader didn't see stepping up as, uh, some form of a challenge that they're having to embrace. But it also feels like a natural evolution. And I think of my journey at Baker McKenzie and I think the firm's done a great job of preparing its talent to keep stepping up to that next level level in leading. Uh, first off, I think about the massive global footprint that we've talked about. So much of our major work is taken on by cross border teams. But it means that from the get go, from the very start in your journey at Baker McKenzie, you get exposure to all these different cultures, a great diversity of opinions and ways of doing things, and you also get the opportunity to work in other offices early on in your career. As I said, I worked in London, New York, Washington, Hong Kong and Sydney. And that helps you build that cross cultural understanding. I think then it's the work that the Firm M puts into ensuring that the next generation of leaders in the wings are ready to step up. Whether it's the mentoring, the coaching, the leadership training programs that we have. If you aspire to lead, the firm will do its best to put you in a position to step up into that role when that opportunity arises. There's a lot of skills that you hone as a partner. Do I think they're transferable into leadership? Absolutely. Maybe with a bit of a growth curve, you know, whether it's legal acumen, work ethic, judgment, you know, bringing people together as a team, humanity, soft skills, those are perhaps the obvious ones. But then I think there are the new, or let's put it, the significantly involved skills and traits that are emerging that are perhaps even more interesting. So resilience is a key one. When you're in a position of leadership, you're more visible. And in many ways, the buck really does stop with the leadership team. So you've got to build up that resilience. And, you know, I've spoken to, in my time, in my few months as chair, I've now spoken to 350 different leaders, Stephen, and clients. And, you know, when I often say to them, uh, what's your advice to me? Resilience comes up very commonly. You've got to develop resilience as well. And then I'd also put within that, uh, a sense of awareness. Have your finger on the pulse at all times, because if you don't, whether it's internal or external, you can end up being quite reactive. And so it means that strategy takes a bit of a backseat to all of the urgent issues that keep cropping up. If you work on your awareness, if you stay close to the mood of your most important stakeholders, your people and your clients, then you can stay a step ahead as well.

Speaker C: And I think people would be interested because, you know, bakers comes from a very different place from lots of other law firms in terms of how it evolved. I remember, you know, learning about it at a particular time, someone sitting me down, actually giving me the whole how bakers started and evolved. And, you know, historically, people thought it was an American firm. I know that's complete nonsense. It's not. And so becoming global chair, first of all, is it elected? Is it an elected position? So how was that going through that kind of, uh, election process, first of all?

Speaker B: Yeah, so absolutely, we've got, you know, a large voting community, a very diverse one in, in every sense of the term, and particularly geographical diversity. North America, Latin America, you've got Europe, you've got the Middle east and Africa. Then you've got all of Asia, you've got the Pacific part of the world as well. So there were, uh, well over 600 in the voting community, may even been more than in the conclave for the papal selection as well, I don't know. But, uh, you know, it's a sizable voting community. And, um, you know, one of the strengths of the process is from my side, it really made me think deeply about what matters to the firm, its partnership and its people, but also to the client community as well. So, as Global chair, uh, my biggest responsibility is staying connected to our two most important stakeholder communities, it's clients. And I spend, I would say, around two thirds of my time, if not 3/4 of my time at the moment on the road, traveling, spending time with our clients, but also then visiting our offices and spending time with our people as well, so I can stay ahead, have my finger on the pulse so that I'm not reactive as well. So it is an election process. You put your thoughts forward, you put your vision forward as to where you think the firm should be trending. And it's down to the partners in their wisdom to make that final choice.

Speaker C: I said in the introduction I was a headhunter recruiter for long term, including for firms like Bakers, um, back in the day. And I'm interested in someone who's obviously been involved in recruiting all laterals and seen a lot of laterals join Bakers, whether it's in the man or elsewhere. What, in your mind, are the keys to ensuring the. A lateral hire is a, uh, success? Yeah.

Speaker B: So we, as a leadership team are incredibly focused on our lateral hiring strategy at the moment. You know, we think it's a brilliant way to continue growing the firm. You know, you. You identify where there are both growth opportunities, but they also may be gaps. And getting the right lateral teams in can really help drive the firm, um, forward in the right way. But I think you've got to be intentional about it. You've got to be strategic, and you can't be like a magpie that's just going after every shiny successful partner that may be out there in the market. There's got to be some thinking, some strategy about the direction of travel. And the fit matters, Stephen, as well. Yes, it's got to be that business fit. And, you know, I mean, their practice, their skills, their experience. It's got to align with our vision as a firm and where we want to trend. But there's also got to be the cultural fit. And, you know, as you well know, Law attracts some pretty big personalities. And so you've got to make sure that when you bring someone in, you're able to ensure that they can fit into the team dynamic as well.

Speaker C: I'm smiling because it's just memories just come back. I won't name it, but a particular partner that we're involved in placing with you, uh, 25 years ago and we actually. I remember warning the then head of London that, you know, this guy had a massive personality and, you know, were you really sure? Oh yeah, he's got a great book of business, you know, bring him in. And uh, about two years later I remember getting cool from that head and going, you were right, you know, what a nightmare this person has been. So it sounds like that you, you put a lot more emphasis than you did then on, you know, cultural fit rather than just some business skills.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Stephen. I'm not sure if they're still around, but it doesn't sound, from what you're saying, like they're a problem. I have to.

Speaker C: They're definitely not. I'm not going to swing that one on you.

Speaker B: You would.

Speaker C: Maybe when we finished, I'll name, I'll name him, see if you've heard. I suspect he's a legend. Not in a good way. So. Yes.

Speaker B: So you.

Speaker C: And how do you, um, how does it. I mean, the culture of the firm obviously is a global firm, but each individual, region and office will have their own culture to some extent, perhaps more. More so than other firms because of the history of how the firm is. How do you really work out whether someone culturally aligned.

Speaker B: It's really interesting you say that, Stephen, because look, you're right, you do have diversity in terms of some of the local culture that you're embedded within. But there is a real sense of a Baker McKenzie global culture as well, because our firm attracts people who want to be global citizens. And I think that's even more important today. In today's world, when sometimes the world feels a bit more inward looking and a bit more protectionist, where barriers may be coming up. You know, we do attract a type of lawyer, a type of business professional that still has a very globalist mentality. They're outward looking. That cultural friendship, you may, I'm sure you've heard of that within our firm as well, that cultural friendship is real. You know, I've worked in five offices, I've been to and traveled to many offices. And there is that real commonality of, ah, people who put that global side of things first and foremost at, uh, the heart of things. It's an inclusive culture as well, which is incredibly important when you do have diversity within the organization. So I think, you know, some people are really surprised to hear that there is that real glue across our firm and I think it explains why this firm grew so rapidly within a matter of a few short decades to become, you know, one of the world's largest law firms and one of the world's most successful law firms. And that has. Because of the strength of our culture. So you do absolutely need to ensure that when you bring teams in, if they're going to be set up for success, you want to make sure that they have that ability to engage with, embed themselves with and collaborate with the teams that already exist here.

Speaker C: So just taking that forward in terms of how, because now I specialize in helping partners, new partners, get integrated into their firms. Um, it's something which a lot of firms are becoming more aware of. How do you generally integrate your laterals when they join? Is it kind of treated as the end part of it recruitment process or different process altogether?

Speaker B: It's a really good question because I think we've learned a lot on that front. You know, I'm not sure if you do rewind back several years, we weren't getting this right, because you think, okay, we've got a star partnering job done. It isn't. That's when the hard work really kicks in. So we make sure that the practice group that wants to hire the lateral or the lateral team already has a full integration plan lined up prior to their arrival. And in fact, we in the global management committee review that integration plan before we approve the hire as well. Uh, okay, so it's part of the package that sent to us. So we will get, you know, we'll get a good three requests for lateral hires coming through every week to the global management team. And there is an integration, uh, proposal within that. You identify an integration sponsor. It's usually the sponsoring partner who then leads in developing the plan. But you've got a broader team that is also identified. You know, someone from, you will have the office managing partner. Typically you have the global practice group lead. You'll have someone from business development comms, a talent team, because you need an army to support that incoming lateral or lateral team. I think when it comes to integrating laterals, I think there's a few things you've really got to focus on. You want to ensure that when they arrive, you're maximizing that exposure to the internal network. One of the powers of Baker McKenzie, as you said, is you've got, you know, six and a half thousand lawyers and legal professionals globally. Yeah. If you can get six and a half thousand people out there representing you, being your ambassador on the ground, well over 40 countries globally, that's hugely powerful. So you want to do your best to expose them to that powerful network that Baker McKenzie has. So we get people on the road visiting, you know, teams across the globe. You want to help them with that external visibility. So introducing them to clients, you've got to get the press releases right. You've got to get them attending the industry events. You want to be establishing as many opportunities for, you know, cross practice, cross market collaboration with the lateral team that arrives. And so there's a lot of thought that goes into this. And we are much better than we have been historically. Perhaps also, Stephen, because of some of the counsel and the guidance that you have provided to firms like us as well over the years.

Speaker C: Well, hopefully is. So the sponsoring part. Is there one person those ultimately responsible is that the sponsoring partner for the integration?

Speaker B: It is usually, uh, one, sometimes two. Yeah. That you would say, okay, this is, this is something that we really going to be getting you to drive forward. Someone has to be accountable at the end. Yes, they do. Of course. Of course you're going to have your global practice group lead as well. They're going to be critical. And so typically there will be a partner where you're saying, okay, off you go. Make lateral hire a success. And that is woven into, uh, the sponsor partners evaluation process as well.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker C: Uh, interesting, because that's something which a lot of firms are grappling with at the moment is, you know, a sponsoring partner will want to take the plaudits when a lateral hire goes really well, but perhaps when it doesn't go as well, they'll try and perhaps blame others, um, or the lateral themselves. So it's actually part of your evaluation of partners. If they've been responsible, then that gets could have fed into the machine, if you like, of working out someone's comp.

Speaker B: Absolutely. But Stephen, what I should also add is, look, it's any single partner's responsibility. I'm very mindful of that. It takes the team. And I, as global chair, have a critical role to play on that. So one of the things that we have, uh, just recently set up this, the incoming leadership team, we've set up a lateral experience group where what we do is that if the lateral has come across over the last 12 months.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: They join a lateral experience group every quarter. We jump at a core. And my job is to listen to them and get feedback from them about how they're being integrated. But then I also listen to them around some of the ideas that they've got around how Baker McKenzie can do better because one thing I think we have not done enough of is learning from their prior experiences in their prior firms of what they were doing. Well, you know, Baker McKenzie does a lot of things really well, but let's be clear, we don't have the monopoly at all. Ideas? There's some fantastic thoughts out there in the market. And my job is also to tap into that knowledge of some of the incoming laterals. So we haven't had our kickoff call yet. That is something I'm looking forward to doing as well.

Speaker C: No, and I totally agree with you because I think firms sometimes think that a lateral coming to, you know, they've got to just kind of imbue themselves into your culture. And there's nothing that they can kind of, uh, teach a new law firm, which is obviously, um, on that. So that's very interesting to hear. Okay, so let's come back to you, Sunny. So tell us, if you would, about a few of the best moments that you've had as a partner. If I could ask you not to say being made global chair or being made a partner, because that's kind of predictable, what would you make? And then a couple of the more, as I call them now, sort of more touchy ones that you can talk about.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, there's probably a few things I pick up on there. So, Stephen, Absolutely. Of course. You know that moment when you are elected partner, that affirmation from your fellow partners that you belong. It is a huge moment, the global chair moment. I remember it clearly. I remember when I got the news from the partner that was overseeing the process. It is a special moment. So let's put those to one side, though. I think from. If I could share a few examples, please.

Speaker C: Yeah, please do.

Speaker B: Um, yes, on the client side, you know, when I was, uh, before I stepped into the chair role, I headed up our market leading global trade practice. And it was a moment of professional pride to see how we got that global team motoring and ready to support clients. So before the invasion, obviously there'd been much more noise and chatter about the risk of Russia sending its troops across into the border. And so we got ahead. You know, we started thinking about the issues across different practices across different regions. We engaged deeply with our colleagues. We had colleagues on the ground in Moscow at the time. Obviously, we've pulled out since. We also have and still have a team in Kiev. I'm incredibly proud of them. I'll come back to them in a moment, actually. But we pull that global team together. We brainstormed all of the issues that clients needed to be thinking about if an invasion happened. And then we started sharing our knowledge on the back of webinars, for example. So we had, um, I remember we did a four series webinar right at the start of the crisis to the webinars were pre invasion to them just shortly after. And across that webinar series, we had something like 14,000 clients dialing in. Yeah. And, you know, we got a blog mechanism where we could, because developments were landing across the EU and the G7 economies on an hourly basis. And the only way to disseminate that knowledge was to blog on it. So clients could absorb that, you know, incoming barrage of regulations. And at its peak, we were having something like a quarter of a million unique visitors to our blog site every month. Okay. So we geared ourselves up to support clients. We pulled the practices together. It wasn't just the trade team, but, um, got our corporate guys ready to help with the divestments out of Russia. We got our litigation folks ready because, you know, a lot of times we're having to terminate contracts and that exposed them. Okay. We had our employment folks ready to advise on the people implications for folks on the ground in both Ukraine and in Russia. We had our, uh, commercial and IP lawyers ready to advise on some of the commercial implications as well. So there's a lot of. There's a huge sort of mobilization of the Baker team globally. We ended up advising Stephen around a quarter of the world's leading companies. There's a quarter of the FTSE 100, the Fortune 100, French, uh, CAC 40, and the German DAX 40 on how to respond to that particular crisis. I'm incredibly proud of what the team achieved there. So client front, that is what I'd share with you on the people front. I've been actively involved in our inclusion program. I'm very proud of what we've done. I was, um, one of the young lawyers in, uh, um, in Baker McKenzie that helped set up our very first affinity group globally back in 2006, Baker ethnicity in London. And, you know, we had identified that, you know, some of our minority talent incoming into Baker McKenzie. Well, A, there wasn't enough, but B, they weren't necessarily getting all, uh, the support that they needed in the early part of their career. And the leadership of the firm said, let us know what we can do. So we set up this group and that was a good 20 years ago. And some brilliant stuff has come out of what that group has done. So, very proud of the fact that, uh, I was able to play my part in setting up that group, but also that the firm encouraged us to do that. So on the people front, that is something I'm incredibly proud of.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker B: And then a couple of moments, uh, since I've been chair, that bring a big smile to my face. So I, um, you know, I've been put in rooms and situations that I could just never have dreamt of. And sometimes I do allow myself to be that 16 year old Sonny that would have been pinching himself, you know, in, in, you know, incredibly sort of, you know, surprised by some of the, the situations that I, I've had the ability to sort of be part of. So.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You know, I've, I've joined the Prime Minister, the UK Prime Minister, on some of his visits overseas as part of his business delegation. But I remember one of them being in the great of all of the people in a state banquet hosted by the Chinese Premier. Yeah, right. That was a pinch me moment. Another one was where I was speaking at a conference in India in Delhi, and then I came off the stage and then the next person going up to speak was Prime Minister Modi. And we managed to get a few moments to exchange a few words as well. And I got a great picture and obviously, um, dad loved that picture. I think that was probably the moment he made his piece with the fact that his son was not a doctor. So even as chair, look, it's a huge privilege that I get to fly the flag for the firm and I'm getting to represent the firm on the most amazing stages. And I've met some really fascinating people in that journey as well.

Speaker C: And with the. I think I remember seeing that picture and I remember you at Davos. You seemed pretty excited, actually. I feel like, I think you went there. I remember a couple of the, the vlogs that you did them coming up on my LinkedIn feed. And it looked fun.

Speaker B: It was fun. You know what, Stephen? I'm m. It's funny you use that word because I am very intentional about finding the fun in my role. It's a big role. Yes, there can be challenges and stresses associated with it, but you've got to find the fun in the role. And, you know, it's one of the big bits of advice I give to junior lawyers when they join. I say, you're not enjoying the role, maybe you're not doing it right. Let's work out how you can find the fun in what you do. And I've challenged myself to do that as well in my role as Global Chair.

Speaker C: Okay. And do just. Just before we come to the. Maybe a couple of more touchy moments, when you go on these trips with the Prime Minister, I mean, how does it actually logistically work? You on the same plane as him, does he come and talk to you guys, or how does it work?

Speaker B: Yes. So they charter a plane and you sat there. You typically have the Prime Minister and his immediate entourage. So you get your cabinet ministers, some of the security detail, they'll be sat right at the front. Then you'll get, um, a number of the business leaders who are joining on the journey. And then a little bit further back, you get the press entourage as well, and you get the number 10 staff with the Prime Minister up front as well. So, um, does the Prime Minister absolutely does a walk around and you get opportunities to have a chat with him. You get to talk about the priorities on that trip. You know, he is absolutely a listener as well, so he's very interested to hear about some of the challenges that businesses face when they're looking to expand in these markets as well. So I was able to talk about some of that. So, yes, you're on the flight with the Prime Minister and his team, and again, you have some interesting moments. So, uh, um, for the Japan trip, we literally flew over to Tokyo to have dinner in. To. In Tokyo before then getting the flight back. So, um, you get some interesting moments as well.

Speaker C: Okay, so coming on to maybe a couple of more touching moments that you could share with us in your career.

Speaker B: Well, I think, to be fair, Stephen, I've probably shared some of them with you. You know, the opportunity to support talent, for example, through the inclusion program that we've developed at Baker McKenzie. And that is one thing I've loved. When you're supporting that next generation to come up, it's. It's a hugely powerful moment, and it's one that brings a big smile to my face. I know that everything I'm doing today as chair, really, it's going to benefit the next generation that is going to be taking the reins within our firm, I probably won't necessarily see all of the fruits of that hard work. I'm okay with that. Because just as there were mentors who came before me who did their bit for the firm, who did their bit for me so that they could hand, you know, a strong, successful Baker McKenzie onto my generation, I see that as very much the responsibility of the current leadership team, of the current partners within the firm as well. So that is something that I get a lot of satisfaction out of. And so when you see that younger talent rising through the organization. When you see people who were your trainees becoming partners, it's a lovely moment.

Speaker C: That's good to hear. And you mentioned previously that you wanted to sort of just mention the key of office.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a nice one as well. Thank you for flagging that. So I. I've worked closely with our Kyiv office for quite some time, you know, partly because of the Russia Ukraine crisis. But, yeah, I've had a relationship with the partners and the associates there, ah, going back several years. So it's been very hard to see them go through what they've been through. But I'm really proud of the fact that they've stayed resilient. I'm very proud of the fact that when, you know, clients have needed them, they've stepped up and they've delivered. I'm also very proud of the support that the firm has provided to our colleagues in Kiev. A number of them did relocate to other markets, um, other offices within the world. And I want to single out in particular our team in Warsaw for doing a lot to support our colleagues in Kiev. But the first office I did a town hall with on becoming chair. So I became chair in late October. Uh, I remember the very next mornings of Friday morning, I arranged to have an office town hall with the Kyiv team because I wanted them to understand and appreciate that, uh, I still very much remain supportive of them, that the firm and its leadership team very much supportive of them. I wanted to hear their thoughts, their experiences, their feedback. Because, you know, we talked about resilience a little bit. I need to still continue learning on that front and listening to them, it certainly does give you a stronger sense of what it means to be resilient.

Speaker C: I'm sure it does. If you had an opportunity to go into a sort of time capsule and go back in time to when you were a much younger lawyer, is there anything you tell yourself to do differently?

Speaker B: One thing I would say is, thank God I didn't go into medicine. Maybe even. I mean, my dad lives with me at, uh, the moment I should pop over and bring him on and say, look, dad, do you think I made the right choice? I should get it recorded here. One of the things that I, ah, think I wish I had appreciated sooner in my career. It actually took a year or two into partnership to get there. This idea of you should constantly feel out of your depth. I had consistently and constantly felt out of my depth throughout my career, but I hadn't quite made my peace with it because I hadn't appreciated that it wasn't only a normal thing, but it was a good thing. It meant you were learning, you were pushing yourself, you were stretching yourselves beyond your boundaries. It's a good thing. Clearly you don't want it to be overwhelming, but you should just feel a little bit uncomfortable, you know, in your career, at every stage of your career as well. And what I say to younger talent coming into the organization now is if you're not feeling out of your depth, maybe you're not doing it right. You need to stretch yourself a little bit more. So that's one of the things I perhaps would have done differently as well. I understand that this is also. Look, it's a serious career. There are pressures associated with it. And, you know, one of the things I say to young lawyers coming through is that point I made earlier on, Steve. Find the fun in what you do. You should be enjoying it as well. Of course it's serious. Of course you have to get your head down and put in the hours. This is by no means an easy career that we sign up to. The way you add longevity to this, the way you make it through to 25, 26 years, is by also looking for the fun in the role as well. And very often you'll get that fun through investing in the human relationships around you, whether it's colleagues or whether it's clients.

Speaker C: Yes. Okay, well, that goes. Takes us full circle to what you said at the beginning about that. That's interesting. So sticking with when you were a younger, ah, lawyer, what kind of mentors did you have? You feel free to name Nia Sam if you want to.

Speaker B: One I'm going to single out was, um, someone who was the global head of our trade practice before me a few years before me, a gentleman called Nick Coward. He was, um, on our global leadership team at one stage. He headed up the global trade team as well. He was a managing part of our Washington office. But he was also one of the individuals who looked out for me when I moved over to the Washington office. So, okay, a few elements that that kicked in there. First off, it's the fact that he took time to speak to me, invited me around to his home, spent time with his family and have got to know them well as well over the years. Made a conscious point of introducing me to his clients and taking me along to client meetings. Gave me the opportunity to really roll my sleeves up and get immersed in matters as well. Introduced me to other colleagues throughout the US but also looked out to me when I was out in The States. It was a really difficult personal moment because that was when my mum passed away. But he lent into supporting me throughout that, and he said, listen, Sonny, you head back to the uk as much as you need to spend time with your mum and those things, you never forget that as well. So I've tried to really keep in mind what Nick did for me, and I hope that the people I've supported through their careers would say, even if it is half of what Nick did, that that would make me, um, a happy person.

Speaker A: Good.

Speaker C: Okay. That sounds excellent. So we've talked a little bit about AI and how that might affect things going forward. Um, obviously, private equity, uh, whether private equity will enter big law is something which is quite a big topic, although perhaps slightly less big than it was a few months ago. I'm not quite sure why that is. Maybe they've realized that law firms are not the same as accountancy firms. What are your views on that? And p. What else might affect things going forwards?

Speaker B: So look, uh, uh, on the AI front, when I think about this, it won't surprise you to hear that Becker McKenzie is all in on driving forward an AI strategy. And I think I might mention a little bit earlier on, we developed our first AI strategy back in 2017. Steven. Ah, when other firms weren't really talking about this. So we come to the table on this, ah, very much as enthusiastic and willing participants. We're not being pulled to the table, which is sometimes what you get. You get a bit of a sense of that from certain law firms. And I, um, from my perspective, absolutely, it is investing in the technology, but it's more than that. It's getting your global talent base excited and energized and enthusiastic and hungry about engaging with some of these changes. And so when I am traveling out there to the already 28 offices I've been to, when I do office town halls, I absolutely encourage you, uh, know, all of the talent, you know, including partners, but also the younger talent and our business professionals to look for the opportunities to do things differently, to do things more efficiently by leveraging the IR tools that we have. Whether that is Copilot, where we've had the largest rollout of Copilot across the legal industry, or whether it is Ligora that we're also. We've announced recently our strategic collaboration with Ligor. And I met, um, the CEO Max, a couple of days ago whilst I was in Stockholm. So absolutely the technology is key, but it's much more than that. I think it's instilling that sense of energy and excitement across the talent base. And so we've got an AI accelerator program where we bring, ah, a number of our lawyers into a residential program, a course over a week. And what we say to them is, invest yourselves fully, immerse yourselves in this. Think of the different use cases. You know, try coding, you're collaborating with other colleagues and see what you can come up with. Come up with the use cases and the agents that, uh, really would make a huge difference to you in your practice. And it's fascinating seeing the feedback come out of that. Everyone who's been on that has really come out of the program incredibly enthusiastic and quite excited about the opportunity. So we're hoping to get, you know, the significant majority of our senior associates to that program in short order as well.

Speaker C: Okay, okay.

Speaker B: But what I remind our talent when it comes to AI, Steven, um, the human element is still going to be critical because that's going to be the differentiator. You know, clients are still going to want that human judgment around how to navigate complex situations, but they also want the human connection, that humanity that we were talking about earlier. Because when there are stressful situations, you want to feel that you've got someone by your side walking you through that situation in a calm way, in a collected way as well.

Speaker C: Well, look, we're coming. That's been absolutely fascinating so far, Sonny. So we're coming to the end of our time. And, um, so I try and ask all my guests a couple of finishing questions. First one being what are your three non negotiable behaviors for you and your team?

Speaker B: So you know, something that we as a leadership team talk about quite routinely. First off, communication is critical and m. We've been on that learning journey. We understand that we as a leadership team can only pull an organization with that close to 13,000 people along with us if we're communicating, uh, in a fast moving world, in a disrupted world, in a complex world, you need people to trust you. And the way you do that is by engaging them and communicating your strategy and your vision, your direction of travel. Okay, okay, Okay. I think the second thing is probably that sense of care. Yeah. Uh, you know, the role that we in leadership have is demanding. The role that partners have is demanding. We've got to recognize that more is being expected of us individually. But through that, you should never lose that sense of looking out for each other and that responsibility and that duty of care aspect. And then you'd expect me to say this, Stephen, but I think it came through from all of the things that I've said, but also from some of the videos that you've picked up from me at Davos or some of the other events I've been to. Is that fun? You've got to find the fun in what you do, because this is meant to be fun. We spend so much time in a professional space. You've got to enjoy what you do.

Speaker C: That's brilliant. So, finally, what's your one golden rule to being a successful partner?

Speaker B: Keep the human at the heart of everything that we do. We are people. We get the most out of each other. Where you're engaging with other people as well, it drives you forward. What we do is for the benefit of colleagues, for the next generation, for our clients, and so absolutely keep the human at the heart of, you know, your career journey.

Speaker C: Okay, well, look, thanks. Thanks, Sami. That's been really fascinating.

Speaker B: What would be your advice there? What would be your golden rule out to me, because that's his team. We'll put you on the spot. Let's get a little bit of, um. Let's get a bit of a think.

Speaker C: I think. What would be my golden rule? When I ran a company, my golden rule was actually about treat clients as people, not as clients. I mean, that was why. That was the thing which used to drive me mad sometimes. And you realize that having. Having a coffee with a client, even if there's nothing to get out of on the surface, always led to something, in my experience, somewhere down the line might be five years down the line. So your point about, you know, being human and keeping making sure that the clients know you and hopefully like you, that, to me, was absolutely key to my. To my. As a recruiter, as a coach, it's a bit different, but same thing, but different skills. So, uh, so, yeah. Okay. Well, thank. No one's asked me that, so thank you.

Speaker B: So we're going to put you on the spot as well. Get some pearls of wisdom in return.

Speaker C: Fair enough. Um, it's been absolutely fascinating, um, hearing from you, Sonny, on what makes a successful partner. So I know you're extremely busy, so thank you so much for making. It's a pleasure time to speak to us.

Speaker B: Thank you for inviting me on, Stephen.

Speaker C: It's a pleasure. Good. So join us on our next episode of Beyond Billable's Lessons from Top Law Firm Partners, where hopefully we'll have another top partner share the secrets that they're success. And as I said at the beginning, please don't forget to like and leave a rating for the podcast and whatever platform you're using, so. See you next time.