BetaTalk · 2026-06-11 · 59 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
49 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
E.ON's NextGen Home is an energy-as-a-service proposition that removes upfront costs - traditionally around £18,000 - by bundling low-carbon assets (heat pumps, batteries, solar panels, EV chargers) into a single fixed monthly price. Rather than asking customers to prioritize sustainability, the model aligns green outcomes with financial incentives: lower bills. Podero provides the critical control layer, integrating APIs from multiple OEM brands (Tesla, Huawei, and others) to read device data every few seconds to minutes, then automatically optimizing energy use across the home. The platform forecasts individual usage patterns, overlays real-time and day-ahead wholesale pricing, and reruns optimizations every 15 minutes to shift consumption away from peak hours, capture energy arbitrage opportunities, and participate in grid-balancing services. All three revenue streams - peak shifting, price arbitrage, and grid services - reduce the customer's effective bill while maintaining the fixed price. The trial of 18 homes in Coventry and the Midlands (retrofits completed by March) has achieved a +56 Net Promoter Score, with 11 promoters, 3 passive, and 2 detractors. E.ON is also launching a six-home social housing demo where asset costs are subsidized separately, leaving tenants with just the optimized service layer. This addresses a major barrier to decarbonization: the complexity of multi-asset installations and the financing challenge for middle-income households.
Podero integrates via APIs with OEM-installed apps (Tesla, Huawei, etc.) to read data from heat pumps, batteries, solar panels, and EV chargers every few seconds to minutes. It forecasts each household's usage patterns, overlays day-ahead wholesale pricing and grid conditions, then reruns optimization algorithms every 15 minutes to decide when to charge batteries, run heat pumps, or reduce consumption - all to minimize costs and maintain the fixed monthly price.
Peak shifting (charging batteries at night or running heat pumps mid-day when prices are cheap), energy arbitrage (buying low-priced energy and selling or using it when prices spike), and grid balancing services (getting paid to reduce or increase consumption when the grid is strained).
Hardware gateways required additional purchase costs, onsite installation complexity, and difficult troubleshooting if failures occurred. APIs leverage existing OEM apps already installed in homes, require no hardware costs or setup, and let Podero rely on OEM improvements over time rather than competing with manufacturers' own control systems.
The trial tested three things: customer willingness to adopt a fixed-price energy service, E.ON's ability to install all assets (heat pump, battery, solar, charger) in five days without disruption, and whether Podero's optimization could maintain fixed pricing while keeping customers informed. It achieved a +56 NPS with 11 promoters out of 18 homes, and 11 out of 12 customers reported very comfortable homes in monthly comfort surveys.
The customer pays a flat monthly fixed price for 10 years, modeled on complex forecasting of their usage, seasonal variation, and market predictions. Optimization sometimes yields savings, sometimes costs more, but over the contract term they should even out; E.ON maintains a buffer to absorb variance rather than maximizing profits, passing optimization gains to customers through the maintained fixed rate.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are genuine operational nuggets spread across the episode - the counterintuitive finding that customers want visibility even under full automation, the API-vs-gateway trade-off decision, and the distinction between efficiency-optimisation and cost-curve optimisation for heat pumps - but they are diluted by long conversational tangents, host self-promotion, and repetition of the core proposition.
automation without visibility, it sort of erodes confidence in what we're doing, even when performance is fine
the heat pumps parameters are still geared towards um you know efficiency. You see, so you see a lot of information about temperatures, about operating modes, whereas we care about what is the specific energy quantity that you can add to the system at which time
The 'automation without visibility erodes trust' finding is genuinely counterintuitive and the most original moment in the episode; the cost-curve-vs-efficiency framing for heat pump control is a fresh angle. Most of the rest rehashes a familiar 'energy-as-a-service' narrative that Octopus, Tomato, and others have already run publicly.
It turns out that customers need to understand what the system is doing, they need something visible, they won't just trust that we're doing the right thing by them
the best efficiency model of running a heat pump is no longer is sort of outdated, right? Because you need to optimize for the lowest cost curve
Both guests are genuine practitioners with skin in the game - an E.ON innovation lead running a live 18-home trial and the CEO of a multi-country energy-optimisation startup - giving the episode credibility over pure thought-leadership. However, the trial scale is tiny and neither guest is a senior executive setting company-wide strategy, limiting the breadth of insight.
it's currently 18 homes being installed. Uh, well, they've been installed, sorry. The install started back in June, the last one finished on the 2nd of March
we're uh uh officially Austrian, uh, we're we're active in 10 European countries
The episode offers a solid cluster of concrete details - named brands, a specific NPS breakdown, cost figures, timelines, and market sizing - that give a B2B listener something to benchmark against. The gap is on unit economics: what the fixed price actually is relative to pre-existing bills remains deliberately vague.
a plus 56 MPS score. So yes, small scale 18 customers, but that's 11 promoters out of those, three passive and two detractors
trying to find around 18,000 pounds to install all of those measures is really challenging
The host has genuine domain knowledge in heating but repeatedly answers his own questions, inserts lengthy personal anecdotes (his guild, school friends, family history with heat pumps), and misses obvious follow-up opportunities - particularly on whether customers are net-positive financially or how the unit economics stack up for E.ON. Questions are often leading rather than probing.
Is is that quite a hard thing to do with with all you code coding engineers and software? Is it is it quite a hard thing to do and manage?
I was gonna say, can you give an indication of what it would cost? But like you've just mentioned, it's bespoke to everyone's property
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Send us Fan Mail Episode Summary Guests: Zac Curtis (Innovation Lead for NextGen Home at E.ON ) & Chris Bernkopf (CEO of Podero ) How do you scale residential Energy as a Service (EaaS) without upfront capital? E.ON and Podero’s 18-home Midlands pilot demonstrates that combining automated zero-upfront multi-asset orchestration (heat pumps, solar PV, batteries, and EV chargers) into a single 10-year fixed tariff wrapper can achieve a +56 Net Promoter Score and stable household comfort. However, scaling this model to a broader target market of 680,000 homes depends entirely on overcoming physical installation bottlenecks, correcting widespread heat pump commissioning errors, and transitioning manufacturer software platforms from standalone thermodynamic efficiency (COP) toward predictive, time-of-use cost-curve steering. Technical Insights 1. The Financial Architecture of Energy as a Service (EaaS) The core financial barrier to residential grid decarbonisation is the high upfront capital cost of low-carbon assets. The E.ON NextGen Home pilot addresses this by completely eliminating initial capital expenditure for the consumer.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_00: So, welcome to another episode of BetaTalk. 2 - > I'd like to thank the Guild patrons who sponsor BetaTalk, 3 - > and they are Payaka, Primary Pro, Esby, the Wolsey Renewable 4 - > Centre, UK Radiators and Castrads. 5 - > Now, today I've got Chris Bernkopf on from Padero, the CEO 6 - > of Podero, and I've got with him Zach Curtis from Eon, who's the 7 - > innovation lead at Eon for something called NextGen Home, 8 - > and I'm going to let them explain exactly what Next Gen 9 - > Home is.
10 - > It sounds quite exciting. 11 - > So welcome to the to the show, guys. 12 - > Zach, uh, you're from Eon, and like I've just introduced there, 13 - > you're doing something called NextGen Home. 14 - > So I suppose if you just eluded that or give us a synopsis about 15 - > what that's all about.
16 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely. 17 - > So NextGen Home is a small-scale trial of your right and energy 18 - > as a service proposition, uh, where for no money up front, we 19 - > hope to be able to encourage the adoption of low-carbon assets, 20 - > heat pumps, batteries, inverters, solar panels, and if 21 - > wanted, um, EV chargers to homes in time across the UK. 22 - > One of the challenges that we've experienced is that customers 23 - > are willing to drive their own sustainable behaviors.
24 - > They're willing to do things which future-proof their homes, 25 - > but they'd rather focus on getting a low energy bill. 26 - > Uh, and then sustainable behaviors will come if we make 27 - > it super simple for them. 28 - > So, energy as a service generally, meaning no money up 29 - > front, single fixed price for their energy and assets 30 - > included, means that we can we can deliver those things. 31 - > We can deliver low carbon behaviors and we can provide a 32 - > reasonably priced bill as well.
33 - > SPEAKER_00: So that's obviously been one of the barriers, hasn't 34 - > it? 35 - > So the up the upfront cost has obviously been a bit of a 36 - > barrier for for all sorts of people, hasn't it? 37 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean for most homes. 38 - > I mean, mine included, and I'm sure lots of the listeners as 39 - > well, trying to find around 18,000 pounds to install all of 40 - > those measures is really challenging.
41 - > Not many people have 18,000 pounds lying around. 42 - > Um I know I certainly don't. 43 - > Uh so yeah, finding a way of providing it with no upfront 44 - > cost in a meaningful way would be the goal. 45 - > SPEAKER_00: And and Chris, you uh your company provides the 46 - > very, very clever technical, and I'm not technical by any stretch 47 - > of the imagination, uh, software and platform that can sort of 48 - > bring all this technology together so it works seamlessly.
49 - > Is that right? 50 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly. 51 - > So we're sort of the control piece to the proposition. 52 - > So of course the the financing uh the in the energy comes from 53 - > from Ian, uh, from Zach.
54 - > Uh and then we provide the access control. 55 - > So that means essentially we um integrate with the different 56 - > OEMs, so your electric vehicle charger, your electric vehicle, 57 - > uh, then virtually the battery, uh, the heat pump. 58 - > Uh, we then read data from those devices um every few seconds, 59 - > every few minutes, and then we figure out what the best way to 60 - > use energy is in order to reduce um those bills. 61 - > So that means essentially using more energy when it's cheap and 62 - > less energy when it's expensive relative to the day, um, so that 63 - > we can you know optimally use uh energy throughout the household, 64 - > depending, of course, on the season, if you're producing high 65 - > amounts of solar or not, uh that changes as well.
66 - > SPEAKER_00: And and this sort of uh pertains to that the sort of 67 - > flexibility piece that a lot of my colleagues talk about, 68 - > doesn't it? 69 - > So it helped it helps the grid as well as the homeowners, isn't 70 - > it? 71 - > SPEAKER_02: Part of the sorry Chris. 72 - > Part of the goal of providing a single fixed price for a 73 - > customer, uh, which includes the pay down of the assets, but also 74 - > optimized energy, is then shifting uh shifting your energy 75 - > use out of peak automatically uh by the use of the battery based 76 - > on certain conditions which Chris can go into.
77 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely. 78 - > And so I guess the uh you can in general um the the you know 79 - > divide between the two different ways you can you can earn those 80 - > revenues. 81 - > So first you have the the shifting of um energy out of the 82 - > peaks. 83 - > So that means you know, charge a new power at night, or you know, 84 - > run T pump uh in the middle of the day when prices uh are are 85 - > cheaper.
86 - > Uh the second generate arbitrage earnings. 87 - > So the the energy market is sort of like a stock market where uh 88 - > essentially you can you can say, well, I'll I'll buy energy at 89 - > two, I'll sell it at four, and potentially if the prices are 90 - > right, you can make a profit. 91 - > And then the third thing is we can we can balance the grid. 92 - > And so that means essentially um that when the grid is under a 93 - > lot of strain, you can get paid to reduce or increase energy 94 - > consumption.
95 - > And thus there's another revenue stream. 96 - > So all these together, of course, uh that reduce the 97 - > customer's goals. 98 - > SPEAKER_00: So when you say a fixed price, Zach, if if uh you 99 - > know with with Chris's software platform, we we're bringing 100 - > costs, running costs down, does the does the customer see that, 101 - > or do they pay a fixed monthly price? 102 - > That's always a flat fixed price, and then obviously if you 103 - > manage to sort of get energy cheaper, you guys, your end, 104 - > that sort of seen your end.
105 - > How does that work? 106 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so the the product is modeled on a 107 - > particularly complex modeling, uh, as you can imagine. 108 - > And the really the goal for us of that optimization that Chris 109 - > described is to try and maintain that fixed price. 110 - > Sometimes it'll be over, sometimes under, but over the 111 - > course of the term, uh typically 10 years, then we should even 112 - > out.
113 - > Um we have built in a uh buffer to make sure that we don't, but 114 - > the goal is not about the energy company or Padero making huge 115 - > amounts of profit, it's actually about trying to give the 116 - > customer as low a price as possible by optimizing those 117 - > assets. 118 - > So everything that Chris's company does goes towards trying 119 - > to maintain that fixed price, and the customer just pays that 120 - > fixed price. 121 - > The challenge perhaps is in trying to provide something 122 - > which is completely bespoke for every customer.
123 - > So it's not like there's one price for next gen home for all 124 - > people. 125 - > The pricing is based on your previous energy usage and how 126 - > you how you experience energy in the home, and then we model it 127 - > based on that, and then of course there's Chris weather 128 - > predictions and future energy predictions and um day-ahead 129 - > wholesale pricing, etc. 130 - > SPEAKER_00: Like I said, Chris, I'm not technical at all. 131 - > Is is that quite a hard thing to do with with all you code coding 132 - > engineers and software?
133 - > Is it is it quite a hard thing to do and manage? 134 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I guess the the complexity comes, as Zach 135 - > mentioned, as having the right fit and the right optimization, 136 - > the right uh device uh control per home. 137 - > Because of course every house is different. 138 - > So, you know, as Zach mentioned, it starts with the forecasting, 139 - > understanding how a person uses energy, you know, when they 140 - > drive their car, when they charge, what charge level, you 141 - > know, when they heat, how much warm water they use, and all 142 - > these things fused together in a software model that predicts.
143 - > Uh, and based on that, we then overlay that with uh the price 144 - > forecasts and uh information on what um Ion thinks the markets 145 - > will do. 146 - > And then out of that comes a uh a custom um steering solution or 147 - > asset optimization solution, if you will, for every device. 148 - > Now we rerun this optimization every 15 minutes, uh, in some 149 - > cases every one minute. 150 - > So you every house is steered live and bespoke.
151 - > Um and that of course adds complexity. 152 - > Now you also have to deal with you know different OEM brands. 153 - > So, you know, of course, there's probably 20 major car brands uh 154 - > the same for heat pumps and inverters. 155 - > So there's complexity at being compatible with all of them and 156 - > also uh having the right um you know control surfaces, so being 157 - > uh allowed to send the right commands.
158 - > Uh and that's sort of the main technical complexity we we try 159 - > to um simplify for for utilities, but also of course 160 - > for the end user. 161 - > Uh in the end, of course, AI does help a lot, especially 162 - > building all these integrations and edge cases, but we we still 163 - > have a lot of engineers to get it done. 164 - > SPEAKER_00: And and I suppose your assets need you you need to 165 - > be able to communicate with your assets so that you you do that 166 - > through API, do you?
167 - > SPEAKER_03: And exactly. 168 - > So there's to do it, one is via a gateway and one is via API. 169 - > Now the the gateway um it's for us quite challenging um to 170 - > install. 171 - > We had a gateway previously, but we then discontinued it about 172 - > two years ago, just because the the setup um where there's 173 - > additional costs of buying the hardware, then you have to set 174 - > it up.
175 - > Um if something breaks, it's usually quite challenging to fix 176 - > it without uh going to the home. 177 - > And the API, of course, uh relies on the OEMs which um have 178 - > already installed an app at the customer's house. 179 - > So you might have your Tesla app or you have your you know Huawei 180 - > app. 181 - > And so there's already an existing working interface in 182 - > the home.
183 - > And then we can just tag along with the OEMs that it's much 184 - > easier to do via API. 185 - > One, it doesn't cost anything to set up, it's much quicker, just 186 - > email and password to authenticate the login. 187 - > And then, of course, you can rely on the OEM to actually 188 - > improve the service over time, whereas at the gateway, it's all 189 - > nuts. 190 - > Um and we're also actively, in some cases, competing with what 191 - > the OEM wants to do by themselves.
192 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, back in the day, I mean I think it was quite 193 - > hard for people to access the APIs of sort of certain heat 194 - > pump manufacturers. 195 - > I think heat pump manufacturers have realized it's actually now 196 - > beneficial for them to actually work with people like yourself 197 - > that sort of require that data. 198 - > I mean, are there so you've had you've you've had a trial, 199 - > didn't you, Zach? 200 - > You started a trial back last year, I think in somewhere where 201 - > 20 homes you've been tr trialing this with.
202 - > Tell us about that. 203 - > And also, do you use particular manufacturers for your your 204 - > particular assets like your batteries and your solar and 205 - > your heat pumps? 206 - > Yeah, so you're right. 207 - > SPEAKER_02: We started last year with well, we started planning 208 - > long before that.
209 - > This whole thing started as part of a Desnes trial between um us 210 - > and some other companies, and an opportunity became apparent that 211 - > this could be a new product for Eon. 212 - > Um, and there's very few energy as a service type products out 213 - > there at the moment because it's so difficult to do, and there's 214 - > different policies and uh challenges which make it largely 215 - > impossible, and that's what definitely drew me to it and 216 - > trying to do the impossible.
217 - > So it's currently 18 homes being installed. 218 - > Uh, well, they've been installed, sorry. 219 - > The install started back in June, the last one finished on 220 - > the 2nd of March. 221 - > So we were really taking our time to make sure we actually 222 - > got it right.
223 - > And those installs, um, whilst they are live in market now, and 224 - > those customers, real homes in and around Coventry and the 225 - > Midlands, um are on their own customized fixed price, all 226 - > asset, plus or minus the EV charger, um, being optimized by 227 - > by Chris's company, Padero. 228 - > We have we we have to be clear that it is a small-scale trial. 229 - > So the goal of it is to test some very particular things. 230 - > Uh, so it's not about is it commercially viable?
231 - > Um, are we saving customers thousands of pounds? 232 - > Um, that will come at a bigger scale. 233 - > Right now, we're really trying to test. 234 - > I think you could probably say it's um three things really.
235 - > The first part we're trying to test with just the small 18 236 - > customer trial is do customers want it? 237 - > Are customers willing to sign up to a fixed price tariff? 238 - > Um, can we deliver it? 239 - > Because if you can imagine, installing a heat pump is 240 - > already complex and challenging, as you know, Nathan.
241 - > Um, and things, small things can go wrong. 242 - > But can we install all assets, all measures over a shortened 243 - > period, maybe five days for all at once? 244 - > That's a lot of techs and engineers on site. 245 - > Um, and how can we do it by making the customer still feel 246 - > comfortable so that they're willing to engage and uh carry 247 - > on with the product?
248 - > And the third thing is Chris, can we optimize those things 249 - > together to ensure that we can maintain that fixed price, but 250 - > also ensure that customers understand what's going on with 251 - > that optimization because it's quite a new thing, even for a 252 - > lot of customers who already have some of these measures 253 - > involved. 254 - > Now, whilst you could let me carry on forever now, Nathan, 255 - > but whilst that trial is in place and whilst customers 256 - > appear to like it, uh I mean, right now the the desirability 257 - > measures that we're testing show that there's a a plus 56 MPS 258 - > score.
259 - > So yes, small scale 18 customers, but that's 11 260 - > promoters out of those, three passive and two detractors. 261 - > And I'll be completely up front. 262 - > The detractors have actually come from, for them, a 263 - > challenging install. 264 - > It's a BAU install.
265 - > So it's not that they don't like energy as a service, they had a 266 - > bad experience of the install itself. 267 - > So then it's how do we win them back? 268 - > How do we make sure that we gain their trust back again and 269 - > demonstrate the benefit of uh of next gen home as a whole? 270 - > And actually, the other interesting thing that we've 271 - > learned from those 18 customers is that um in the monthly 272 - > comfort pulse that we have with them, of the 12 that responded 273 - > to last month's pulse, 11 out of 12 rated their home as 274 - > comfortable, very comfortable.
275 - > So, you know, if the goal is we provide you with a warm, 276 - > comfortable home, and you don't need to think about anything, we 277 - > make it simple for you to shift carbon, to make sure you're 278 - > actually driving the right pricing, to make sure that your 279 - > pricing itself is simple just for a warm, comfortable home. 280 - > I think we've succeeded. 281 - > But there's something else, Nathan, and that is that this is 282 - > all retrofit as I mentioned in and around Coventry in the 283 - > Midlands, linked to our partnership with the uh with 284 - > Coventry City Council.
285 - > We are also now testing a six home demo with social housing. 286 - > So that the first install is happening in two weeks' time, 287 - > um, and the goal of that is that the cost of the assets is being 288 - > taken away and paid for elsewhere, and the social 289 - > housing tenant will therefore get an optimized service 290 - > commodity wrapper placed over the top, same deal, fixed price, 291 - > customized to their previous energy usage. 292 - > But of course, that then will be a low-bill home because the cost 293 - > of the assets is stripped out of the deal.
294 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can see social housing going for this in 295 - > a in a big way, but you know, once we're all there with uh 296 - > doing the tweaks of of getting it to exactly what where we need 297 - > to get it to, it'd be a good good benefit from for social 298 - > housing. 299 - > With with uh with with sort of customers at the moment that are 300 - > in their homes and they've adopted this battery technology 301 - > and solar and and let's say heat pumps as well.
302 - > You know, some some of the real sort of geeky people I know are 303 - > homeowners that have got this technology. 304 - > What they're very interested in is how much uh you know how much 305 - > electricity are they putting back to the grid and etc. 306 - > etc. 307 - > Now I suppose for your customers, they kind of won't be 308 - > thinking like that because it's just it but that it's just going 309 - > on in the background for them, is it?
310 - > They're just getting that monthly bills, it takes all the 311 - > pressure off of knowing what they're gonna be paying, they've 312 - > just got that monthly thing that just that comes out. 313 - > They probably aren't gonna be concerned as much about things 314 - > like that, are they? 315 - > SPEAKER_02: I presume. 316 - > But you should say that.
317 - > Because we actually have uh some unexpected learnings here, 318 - > because my assumption was that if we say to customers, good 319 - > news, we can make comfort in your home easy, you just pay us 320 - > a fixed price, which you see in advance, you're happy with, it's 321 - > customized to you, and that's all you need to do. 322 - > Just pay the pay the bill, and then your home is warm, you can 323 - > see all of these things around you, they're doing their job. 324 - > No.
325 - > It turns out that customers need to understand what the system is 326 - > doing, they need something visible, they won't just trust 327 - > that we're doing the right thing by them. 328 - > Um, and I guess why it matters is because automation without 329 - > visibility, it sort of erodes confidence in what we're doing, 330 - > even when performance is fine. 331 - > And actually, there is a benefit to having something visible so 332 - > that they can see that their energy retailer is doing 333 - > something for them.
334 - > Then we're not just sitting back and twiddling our thumbs, which 335 - > leads on to Chris. 336 - > Uh, because apart from during the the install process that 337 - > we've had, we've redesigned the hems onboarding um and changed 338 - > the way that we do that. 339 - > But Chris has enabled us to have um a platform, which he can tell 340 - > us about. 341 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I think the there's there's of course the 342 - > the set of in the user interface that we provide.
343 - > Um so you have uh an app in the app store, the iS, uh in the 344 - > Android app store, in the address store, uh the Google 345 - > store, and uh web. 346 - > Um but actually there's been a couple of feature requests from 347 - > Zach in the last months, which we've been very happy to add. 348 - > So, of course, you know, it's it's important to be able to 349 - > connect to the device easily. 350 - > You you enter your email and password, and then and then 351 - > you're done.
352 - > You see the device in the app. 353 - > You then see all the devices data. 354 - > So we monitor the device and see show you what's going on. 355 - > You can see the savings, um, which of course um is is nice to 356 - > see that we're actually optimizing.
357 - > But also, of course, you need to communicate when things you know 358 - > don't go well. 359 - > So you basically need to say, hey, uh, for example, today we 360 - > weren't able to save you money because of reason X. 361 - > Or even just to say, you know, today you charge your car um at 362 - > work. 363 - > Um at work we can't optimize um because it's a different 364 - > electricity contract, different electricity bill.
365 - > Um, so your car was charged, but uh, you know, we didn't have 366 - > anything to do with it. 367 - > Uh, and just to have the transparency of what's going on, 368 - > um, often positive, often neutral, sometimes negative. 369 - > Hey, for example, you know, you need to reconnect to the device 370 - > for this or that reason. 371 - > Uh, and to provide not only um the visibility, but also to have 372 - > um an active communication of what's going on to reassure the 373 - > user uh you know we're taking care of everything, we will know 374 - > when things are happening, uh, and to basically provide sort of 375 - > to be the friendly helper that is uh as access not twiddling 376 - > their tubs uh uh in the office.
377 - > SPEAKER_00: Do that do they get like a uh is it all done via 378 - > phone app or do they get like a smart meter where they can see 379 - > what's going on from that visual aspect, or is it is it all on 380 - > their phone or computer? 381 - > SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's uh it's all on their phone and computer. 382 - > Uh I think the the learning we have made um over the last years 383 - > is that over 90% of users want to do this on their phone. 384 - > Uh it mirrors the existing app interactions they have.
385 - > Um, you know, when they sort of uh you know, say you have an EV 386 - > charger, you want to, you know, change the charging limit, uh, 387 - > please charge until 90%, another 80%. 388 - > That's usually done uh via the phone. 389 - > And so we basically want to tag along and tag onto this existing 390 - > behavior and say, well, now you can not only do this in these 391 - > interactions at every different part of your energy system in 392 - > every different uh app that you have, but we can centralize a 393 - > lot of those interactions in the same app that of course has the 394 - > Ion brand with it, uh, so that we essentially um you know try 395 - > to unify all these disparate energy actions that you do 396 - > throughout the day and throughout the week.
397 - > Um so that you have one place where you go to, you know what's 398 - > going on, you know, everything's fine. 399 - > You can change the most important settings, uh, and then 400 - > it's only only click away. 401 - > SPEAKER_00: Are you guys, uh Zach, as a utility, are you guys 402 - > kind of first to market with this sort of this sort of thing? 403 - > SPEAKER_02: I I would whenever I uh do any talks about next-gen 404 - > home, uh I always slightly tongue-in-cheek say that this is 405 - > the first of its kind in the UK.
406 - > But of course, I caveat it with a lot of uh other things like 407 - > this is the first of its kind, all assets, fully optimized, 408 - > single fixed price, commodity included, energy as a service 409 - > proposition. 410 - > But the reality is that um other companies in the UK um have done 411 - > energy as a service trials. 412 - > Um Octopus did a great one. 413 - > Uh Tomato, of course, uh had something similar.
414 - > I don't think either of those, I might be wrong, I don't think 415 - > either of those um optimized EV at the same time. 416 - > Um we go direct to EV, and of course we have the charger. 417 - > Um, there are other smaller companies who do great jobs, uh, 418 - > and I can't call out all of them, but Wonderwall also is 419 - > doing some fascinating things in this space, uh, including whole 420 - > home automation and IoT-based devices, which I think is a 421 - > fascinating direction.
422 - > So there are others, but I think that we might be the first UK 423 - > retailer to really try and drive forward an all-asset option. 424 - > Um, and we will be doing bundled uh options as well, so different 425 - > asset mixes. 426 - > Probably the other thing to say is that part of the goal uh for 427 - > Eon of making new energy work, or what we're calling making new 428 - > energy work, is trying to put these low-carbon assets into the 429 - > hands of as many homes as possible in a way which is 430 - > simple and low cost for them.
431 - > So this seems like a natural way to do it. 432 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean I mean the reason I asked is because I've 433 - > had Wanderwall on actually, yeah, and and obviously I'm 434 - > always talking about this sort of sector, and and I and I did 435 - > think to myself, yeah, I think you are, you know, by by being 436 - > able to offer everything what you are offering, I think you 437 - > are first. 438 - > I mean, and just to sort of mention, because there's a gonna 439 - > be I mentioned to you earlier, Zach, there's gonna be a lot of 440 - > my listeners thinking, oh, Nathan's got Eon on.
441 - > Are they gonna talk about the Ovo thing? 442 - > But uh Zach and I and Zach's team of people, we we arranged 443 - > this podcast a few months ago, way before uh that news 444 - > announcement. 445 - > So we're obviously here to talk talk about what uh the next gen 446 - > home. 447 - > It is called the next gen home, isn't it?
448 - > Zach, I've got that right, isn't it? 449 - > SPEAKER_02: It is it is called next gen home, and I can just 450 - > speak to Ovo very briefly, uh, only to say that uh right now 451 - > it's still early days. 452 - > The main thing that is in our mind is keeping things as stable 453 - > and simple as possible for both Eon's customers and Ovo's 454 - > customers. 455 - > And there won't be any change for the time being, but I 456 - > suspect in the future this will only be a good thing both for 457 - > the energy energy industry and I think for things like 458 - > proposition and innovation development generally, because 459 - > Has some great products, um, as does Eon.
460 - > SPEAKER_00: Now, I think one of the benefits, because I 461 - > obviously talk to lots of people, well, sort of friends I 462 - > knew from school that don't know what I've been doing for the 463 - > last sort of 10 years, and I sort of chat to them about what 464 - > I do, and then they tell me, Oh, yeah, I'm quite interested in in 465 - > PV and I've heard about batteries and EVs, but of 466 - > course, it then comes to the cost. 467 - > They can't afford to put this in as much as they they're not I 468 - > don't so they're desperate for they're definitely not desperate 469 - > for it, but they're very interested in it.
470 - > They're uh you know, now that their energy bills have gone up. 471 - > So that whole fixed pricing is quite appealing for some people 472 - > I know. 473 - > Now, are you able to sort of give people well? 474 - > I was gonna say, can you give an indication of what it would 475 - > cost?
476 - > But like you've just mentioned, it's bespoke to everyone's 477 - > property and their previous energy usage, isn't it? 478 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's yeah, it it it is uh in the the small 479 - > in the 18 home trial, customers are paying slightly more than 480 - > they were last year, but I had to be frank, my goal is it it 481 - > has to be, I think, as at best the same price that they were 482 - > paying last year, and ideally less. 483 - > People are focused rightly on trying to lower as much of their 484 - > household um cash flow as they possibly can.
485 - > And even though they're getting all of these assets included, 486 - > they have to find a way, either through optimization or other 487 - > measures, uh, to try and make sure that this is as as good a 488 - > value as possible. 489 - > There's a couple of other points on it as well. 490 - > The first part is that in some ways for me, the goal of this is 491 - > not just getting these assets into people's homes and 492 - > optimizing them to or orchestrating them together to 493 - > try and provide a good service.
494 - > The goal really is in trying to change the way that customers 495 - > view their energy usage. 496 - > Um custom like customers don't lie in bed at night thinking 497 - > about kilowatt hours. 498 - > We might, perhaps, but customers generally don't think about 499 - > lying in bed thinking about kilowatt hours or jewels or 500 - > anything else. 501 - > Uh, they think about okay, does my energy work?
502 - > Do my assets work? 503 - > Do I have a warm, comfortable home? 504 - > If I do, then great. 505 - > So, in some ways, the customer value proposition is what else 506 - > can we do beyond just giving the assets, providing the energy at 507 - > a single fixed price?
508 - > So it might be anything else that's linked in the future 509 - > towards comfortable homes. 510 - > It might be discounts with home appliance companies or 511 - > sustainable home appliance companies or something like 512 - > that, which might lead to then a bigger proposition, which is Eon 513 - > provides a warm, comfortable home. 514 - > Not just warm, also comfortable, in whatever guise that might 515 - > take. 516 - > Now, this second part is as we're looking to scale up, two 517 - > of the biggest challenges of scaling up are moving beyond the 518 - > all asset installation that we've done for the trial to 519 - > particular bundles for customers that work for their home.
520 - > Um and Nathan, you might you've you're heavily experienced in 521 - > heating, so you might of course shoot me down on this. 522 - > But what we found so far is that um what 80% of the potential 523 - > trial lists we analyzed raised concerns about the heat pump 524 - > specifically around the size, the space required, noise 525 - > levels, uh pipework disruption, um, any energy savings and 526 - > guarantees of that. 527 - > Um and also what we've experienced is that of course 528 - > heat pumps, whilst great, and we are firm believers in heat 529 - > pumps, they're not suitable for all homes.
530 - > Just a lot of homes. 531 - > So then how can I do energy as a service in flats? 532 - > How can I do energy as a service in really tight, mid-terraced 533 - > houses where I'd have to crane a heat pump over the top, which 534 - > isn't always cost effective? 535 - > So, of course, in the MVP, I'm looking at other measures as 536 - > well.
537 - > So that might be those smaller heat pumps. 538 - > We don't need to name the brands, but the smaller heat 539 - > pumps that you might be able to have single room and a single 540 - > room, and they can talk together and I can optimize them. 541 - > Um, or it might be some sort of infrared solution that we can't 542 - > optimize, but it could be a low electricity um option to add 543 - > into the heating as well, or it could be electric boilers for 544 - > hot water. 545 - > So we're looking at getting the right mix, which might be 546 - > battery alone, battery and solar, battery solar heat pump, 547 - > battery and heat pump, um, or the whole shebang with a bolt-on 548 - > of EV charger as well.
549 - > So the benefit of that is it will, I believe, um open up to a 550 - > great big market sizing of 680,000 homes if we have the 551 - > right mix for the right home at the right price. 552 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and we're seeing now across Europe that um 553 - > a lot of the um, you know, the things that maybe two or three 554 - > years ago were considered impossible. 555 - > I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, connectivity was not 556 - > as impossible uh maybe three, four years back.
557 - > And we're seeing now that the price of just standalone home 558 - > batteries uh that are you can plug in, that you can plug into 559 - > the socket, are getting uh to a price point where uh it makes 560 - > sense to roll them out via engine as a service to a lot of 561 - > customers, where traditionally wasn't the case. 562 - > So if you if you look at a battery you bought maybe 10 563 - > years ago, the prices um reduced so dramatically that for the 564 - > first time you can offer something for not the sort of 565 - > relatively wealthy household consumer, but also for the vast 566 - > majority of uh of people that don't live in a nice house where 567 - > everything can be customized, modified, where it's not a 568 - > problem if you change something in a roof.
569 - > Um and I think that's the that's the power of energy as a service 570 - > that I think is often overlooked, uh, especially with 571 - > the with some utilities. 572 - > SPEAKER_02: Chris and Nathan, you know, you know where this 573 - > lives and dies. 574 - > Uh if what I'm learning more and more is this lives and dies, not 575 - > just on the nature of the proposition and the things we're 576 - > installing, it lives and dies on the finance mechanism of dealing 577 - > with that upfront cost of the assets and the install and how 578 - > we then handle that cost in a way which is is great for the 579 - > end user, the customer, uh, but also not onerous for the 580 - > installer, not onerous for the manufacturer, not onerous for 581 - > the energy retailer.
582 - > Uh so we're working closely. 583 - > And you asked earlier, Nathan, um, were we working with 584 - > particular companies? 585 - > Yes. 586 - > We were very careful in choosing those companies that were great 587 - > to work with, had good quality products that we could easily 588 - > optimize with via API.
589 - > So those are Valent, Solar Edge, MyEnergy, and of course Pedero. 590 - > SPEAKER_00: They used to sponsor me, My Energy. 591 - > Um, yeah, uh there's another thing because obviously there's 592 - > there's another where place where this could fall down. 593 - > Um and and and every every utility is experiencing this.
594 - > I know I did Ovo did during the electrification of heat because 595 - > they contacted me about it. 596 - > They were you know, they were obviously monitoring all their 597 - > um heat pump systems going in under that scheme, and they 598 - > weren't performing very well. 599 - > And it's it's simply because there's a lot of the supply 600 - > chain out there, uh, you know, they're not definitely not all 601 - > cowboys at all, but they um they're what I call inconscious, 602 - > um unconscious incompetence.
603 - > They want to do good work, but they just don't know exactly 604 - > what good work is yet. 605 - > You know, they don't know what they don't know, which is why 606 - > people contact me because I own obviously the guild of master 607 - > heat engines, and and if you ever need help help from them in 608 - > the future, let me know. 609 - > But because a lot of people are having heat pump systems in put 610 - > in by very you know well-meaning friendly SMEs or whoever they 611 - > got to install it, and and I'm talking about some of the larger 612 - > companies as well, won't name them, they're not being put in 613 - > as optimally as possible, and that's not down to the fact that 614 - > they is it it's a struggle or it's disruptive to put them in 615 - > as optimally as possible, it's just that they uh you know the 616 - > people that have put them in haven't kind of just known a f a 617 - > few of the things.
618 - > I mean, commissioning, for instance, it seems to be a big 619 - > problem. 620 - > Uh, and and obviously, as you in or deploy more assets, you know, 621 - > you've got your batteries, your PV, and all this stuff, you kind 622 - > of want it to be working all uh seamlessly all together, and you 623 - > know, orchestrating a team of people to come into someone's 624 - > home and put all that stuff in. 625 - > Well, trust me, I know it's challenging. 626 - > Um, and I imagine it's very challenging for you guys as a 627 - > utility because you've got to try, you know you've got you you 628 - > want the best supply chain possible.
629 - > And you know, I do know them, there's there's obviously 630 - > entities out there who are onboarding engineers and SMEs 631 - > specifically to go to utilities to put stuff in. 632 - > Um, you know, because they talk to me as well about how do we 633 - > get good engineers. 634 - > So the engineering community out there it is quite a 635 - > heterogeneous community because we've been a sole trader uh 636 - > self-employed uh industry since the early 80s. 637 - > So that's that's um had issues with how do we get or how do we 638 - > disseminate what best practices, what current best practices to 639 - > this sort of disenfranchised heterogeneous industry.
640 - > You know, way back in the 60s and 70s it was a direct employed 641 - > labour force, and you could really, really disseminate what 642 - > good practice was is very quickly. 643 - > That's why we transitioned from town gas to methane very, very 644 - > quickly in 10 years. 645 - > But a lot of entities now are really struggling to get that 646 - > good engineering background, and it's not that it's never down to 647 - > qualifications or experience at all. 648 - > So that that's that's always going to be a challenge for 649 - > everyone.
650 - > I mean, it's but it's not a challenge that can't be overcome 651 - > at all. 652 - > SPEAKER_02: That's right. 653 - > So I have an example. 654 - > Uh for the for the 18 homes, we used our own um in-house 655 - > installers at the time, and they did a great job, but it was a 656 - > steep learning curve because even though uh, of course, there 657 - > was you know a heavy design uh process beforehand, particularly 658 - > for the heat pumps, but also then the system as a whole, um, 659 - > there were still learnings to be had, and we learned pretty 660 - > quickly.
661 - > But one of the things we tried to um we tried to deal with was 662 - > something pretty new for them, which was of course connecting 663 - > the hems to the assets. 664 - > And Padero kindly did a series of trainings for the installers, 665 - > and um Valent and SolarEdge also then got the installers to come 666 - > and refresh their existing training. 667 - > So we tried to get them up to speed as quickly as possible. 668 - > But things like trying to get I mean it seems like it might be 669 - > straightforward, but it's not as straightforward as you might 670 - > think.
671 - > And it's a new process for installers to learn when we're 672 - > trying to connect to a platform like Padero's, um, and then also 673 - > try and engage the customer in that process as well. 674 - > So we're almost educated, in fact, it's a massive system of 675 - > education for making sure that people are aware of the 676 - > waterfall process of what needs to be which type of asset type 677 - > needs to be installed when during that five-day period, um, 678 - > and then also at the end of it on Thursday or the Friday, how 679 - > that then they then need to support the customer in 680 - > connecting to Padero.
681 - > Uh so the customer is being educated as well as the the 682 - > techs and engineers beforehand as well. 683 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely a definitely a big uh learning 684 - > sort of care for everyone, isn't it? 685 - > unknown: Chris. 686 - > SPEAKER_03: We're lucky to have the same brands over and over 687 - > again.
688 - > Um so that there's sort of the we what we see in the field, you 689 - > know, when we work with you know with propositions where it's 690 - > it's not so standardized. 691 - > Um, you see the the craziest settings on especially heat 692 - > pumps um for inverters and bad and DVs it's usually not that 693 - > bad. 694 - > But there's some heat pumps where you will constantly have 695 - > the heating rod running, right? 696 - > And the cost, of course, then it's astronomical.
697 - > So the first thing that we can do um remotely is just to make 698 - > sure we don't we use the system in a more efficient way. 699 - > That's not even price optimization. 700 - > Now, in the case with with your next, it's it's better because 701 - > you have an installer uh on site, uh you checks these 702 - > things. 703 - > Um, but sometimes it's uh it's uh it's the Wild West out there, 704 - > even in countries where you believe heat pumps are super 705 - > established, like Sweden, where half the population heats with 706 - > heat pumps.
707 - > SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's that's super established air, Chris. 708 - > We were putting them in before any other European country. 709 - > I don't think people realise we have the biggest air-to-wear 710 - > commercial heat pump market in Europe, and we have done for 711 - > decades. 712 - > They've been gowning for well, my family we've been putting in 713 - > for nearly half a century.
714 - > Uh, I just don't think people realise their heat pumps when 715 - > they look up and they think, oh, it's an air conditioner, they 716 - > don't realise it heats you as well. 717 - > Um they've been gowning for donkeys years, uh, way before 718 - > Sweden. 719 - > But um well, let's talk about other countries because Chris, 720 - > your your company, I suppose. 721 - > I mean, is it Austrian?
722 - > Have I got that right? 723 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly. 724 - > We're uh uh officially Austrian, uh, we're we're active in 10 725 - > European countries. 726 - > Right, okay.
727 - > Also, the team is from from most European countries. 728 - > Um so we you know we were we're well distributed across the the 729 - > epex, the north pole price zones, so where you can trade on 730 - > on those markets. 731 - > SPEAKER_00: And so you so you're doing this in other European 732 - > countries. 733 - > Are you doing it exactly kind of the same, or is it a bit 734 - > different in different countries what you're doing?
735 - > SPEAKER_03: So of course, the uh you know, next proposition is 736 - > unique um in that is energy as a service. 737 - > Um a lot of the time we do sort of the um, you know, either we 738 - > do a um you have a fixed tariff and there's a fixed price 739 - > reduction. 740 - > So say, you know, you have um connect your battery inverter 741 - > and you save 120 pounds a year. 742 - > That's sort of a you know fixed tariff, uh fixed uh cost 743 - > savings.
744 - > Um we also, of course, sometimes do these uh you know dynamic 745 - > tariff optimizations where you connect your asset, you might 746 - > have a dynamic, uh, an hourly um electricity contract, uh, and 747 - > then you basically steer the device optimally to save money 748 - > there. 749 - > Um so that is from you know Portugal to Italy, all the way 750 - > to Estonia and Sweden, with everything in the middle. 751 - > Uh so we see all types of climates um and all types of uh 752 - > configurations um that you could imagine.
753 - > Uh we're we're lucky that the European uh energy market is so 754 - > standardized. 755 - > So you know, electricity trading works roughly the same um in uh 756 - > you know in Sweden as it does in Portugal. 757 - > Uh and so from that, you know, we can benefit a lot. 758 - > Of course, the OEMs, uh, the manufacturers are also a little 759 - > bit different.
760 - > Um, but of course the big ones are somewhat similar. 761 - > So you'll find solar edge uh or valent across Europe as well. 762 - > SPEAKER_00: I think another great advantage I think you guys 763 - > have got. 764 - > So obviously, let's say um, you know, I I obviously can put heat 765 - > pumps in, but I don't really know a lot about batteries, I 766 - > don't really know a lot about solar, I definitely don't know a 767 - > lot about um EV.
768 - > Now, for a customer that kind of likes all these different 769 - > assets, having one company install them and be in charge of 770 - > them, because obviously over that this period you're gonna be 771 - > the ones maintaining them as well. 772 - > So let's say anything went wrong, they only have to ring up 773 - > one company. 774 - > Whereas there's gonna be a few customers out there, you know, 775 - > they might have had a company come in and put their solar, and 776 - > then another company might have come in and put their battery 777 - > in, another company might have come in and put their heat pump.
778 - > Let's say something goes wrong, it's a bit of a nightmare for 779 - > them to sometimes sort out. 780 - > Whereas if one entity has done the whole lot and it's your 781 - > energy supply, which I suppose helps it, because you're they're 782 - > the ones you pay the bill to. 783 - > Um, it makes it a little bit, it's it's it's more of a 784 - > stress-free thing. 785 - > You know, it's something I'd probably do, you know, because 786 - > like I say, I don't know anything about batteries, I 787 - > should do.
788 - > I I should learn more about them, but you know, heating is 789 - > my game. 790 - > Uh, I can do that myself if I wanted to, but all the other 791 - > things I'd I know good people to do it, obviously. 792 - > But I think that would be quite an important proposition for 793 - > many consumers, wouldn't it? 794 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm glad that you're the first customer for 795 - > the uh for the MVP, Nathan.
796 - > That's great. 797 - > Uh you're you're right that there is a there is um there's 798 - > something kind of pleasing about about the all-in-one. 799 - > Uh there's something kind of pleasing about the simplicity of 800 - > coming to one person that you know you'll learn the name of 801 - > who will then coordinate everything for you and give you 802 - > that I'm sorry to keep repeating the same phrase, but that warm, 803 - > comfortable home by installing whatever asset bundle is right 804 - > for you.
805 - > But having said that, in the future, as more and more 806 - > companies launch products like this, there will, of course, 807 - > come a time where there'll be a secondary market where a 808 - > retailer will provide just a commodity a still fixed rate 809 - > commodity and service tariff, um, which is somehow separate 810 - > separated from the finance deal on the assets. 811 - > So customers will come and go between different companies, um, 812 - > and then we'll just provide the commodity and service wrapper 813 - > over the top.
814 - > Now, that might mean then that we're recruiting customers who 815 - > have existing assets or a part suite of existing assets, um, 816 - > and we'll need to optimize with those customers as well. 817 - > Um, so it they'll become a more complex marketplace where whilst 818 - > it might be great for one person to install everything in time, I 819 - > think it will end up being a bit like Hi-Fi's. 820 - > I was listening to a podcast about Hi-Fi's um, how they 821 - > developed over the years, and those at the top end like to get 822 - > one um one module from Name, one from another company, one from 823 - > Lynn, and they build their bundle as they see fit.
824 - > Now, whilst right now people might be able to build a bundle 825 - > with us in the MVP, the next stage, uh, in the future it'll 826 - > happen naturally through market movements. 827 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I can tell you you know your hi-fi Zach, 828 - > because you mentioned Lynn. 829 - > That's my favourite record deck, the Lynn Son deck. 830 - > Perfect.
831 - > Well, um, yes, so I was gonna say, so if if if someone has 832 - > this and then they decide to move home, what sort of happens 833 - > in that scenario? 834 - > So let's say they they've they've had all this installed 835 - > and they they move home two years down the road. 836 - > So what's what's the process there? 837 - > SPEAKER_02: It's a great question, and of course we've 838 - > done quite a lot of research into it, and of the people we've 839 - > researched and also the research we've found.
840 - > I'm afraid it's a win-win situation for different parties. 841 - > The first one is the um the homeowner that's selling their 842 - > house. 843 - > Uh the research that we've done is uh shows that depending on 844 - > the scale of where they are across the period of their next 845 - > gen home, if it's a 10-year journey, 10-year journey, uh, 846 - > but the value of the assets do increase the value of the home, 847 - > particularly if they can demonstrate a stable and good 848 - > value bill behind it to the incoming buyer.
849 - > For the incoming buyer, it means uh the the asset cost is paid 850 - > off in the sale of the house. 851 - > So they come in, they have no asset pay down. 852 - > So we just provide a commodity and service wrapper over the 853 - > top, which is optimized. 854 - > So therefore, it's a low-bill home for them.
855 - > So the the buyer comes into a low-bill home, the seller 856 - > doesn't lose money on the house sale by selling the assets with 857 - > it. 858 - > And they and in the terms and conditions, they can they can, 859 - > of course, leave whenever they want. 860 - > We're not gonna restrict them by saying you have to stay in your 861 - > house for 10 years. 862 - > SPEAKER_00: I had Ryan, Ryan on from the Green Finance Institute 863 - > uh last week, and we were both, you know, like in the future, 864 - > homes that have got this kind of technology are gonna be able to 865 - > command more of a premium price, I I imagine, aren't they?
866 - > As as as we sort of move towards the transition. 867 - > Yeah, I hope so. 868 - > And obviously, with your package, you've got um 869 - > maintenance, I should imagine. 870 - > That I mean, that's another thing, I suppose.
871 - > It's takes the onus off the the homeowner thinking, right, well, 872 - > who who do I get to do my yearly service on the heat? 873 - > I mean, because not every installation outfit out there is 874 - > doing so. 875 - > I don't understand why, but they're not. 876 - > Whereas obviously you guys are gonna do your own maintenance 877 - > packages, aren't you?
878 - > And and I presume you're monitoring the systems as well, 879 - > aren't you? 880 - > For so you can preempt situations if you think there's 881 - > a situation coming up. 882 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure. 883 - > So I um, you know, next to the interfaces for end users, um, so 884 - > for the consumers, we have an interface for Zach and his 885 - > colleagues.
886 - > So they can, you know, look at the telemetry data, so they can 887 - > look at the monitoring data, uh, see what's going on for the heat 888 - > pump, for example. 889 - > You can see the temperatures, you can see the operational 890 - > modes. 891 - > Um, there's you know about 50 parameters that would be 892 - > available as well if you need them. 893 - > Um in some cases, the installer has a separate platform by the 894 - > OEM.
895 - > Um, that's something we see in a lot of other countries, where 896 - > then uh Valent provides an OEM platform itself. 897 - > But of course, the consumer will often call the utility first and 898 - > say, hey, I see this happening in my house. 899 - > Um I using this too, what should I do? 900 - > And so it's important for the uh for the custom service and 901 - > customer support uh people at Eon to see what's going on in 902 - > real time and then say, well, that's something we can fix.
903 - > We can you know change this parameter, we can you know 904 - > contact installer for you, um, we can ask Padere what's going 905 - > on in case we, you know, in case we can we can fix it. 906 - > Um and it's nice to have one place where we fuse all that 907 - > data together uh in the customer support tooling. 908 - > SPEAKER_02: And in terms of the uh in terms of the servicing 909 - > itself, yes, in the 18-person trial, there's a yearly heat 910 - > pump service, which is part of that fixed price.
911 - > In the 300 plus MVP that we're building now, I think there's 912 - > something more we can do linked to the visibility that I 913 - > mentioned earlier customers definitely want. 914 - > And that's yes, heat pump service, but also why not 915 - > quarterly updates on things like battery health or other asset 916 - > health, uh, or how things are being optimized and be more 917 - > proactive in sharing with customers how their assets are 918 - > assets are performing. 919 - > SPEAKER_00: What what is the what's the if I was to ask you, 920 - > what's the biggest learning you've had so far from your 18 921 - > people trying to 18 home drawing?
922 - > Yeah, that specifically shocked you or surprised you that you 923 - > probably weren't thinking about it. 924 - > SPEAKER_02: There's there's there's two sides. 925 - > There's one which is uh I I guess a customer learning, and 926 - > and it's not that technical, and that is that people appear to 927 - > love it. 928 - > I mean it's quite a big change in the way that people use 929 - > energy in their homes, it's quite a big change in the way 930 - > that people uh pay for their energy.
931 - > Um it's maybe a little bit of a mindset shift, uh mindset shift. 932 - > God, I can't get my tongue around that word today. 933 - > Um, but the the second learning is more of a personal one, and 934 - > that is it is significantly more complicated than even I 935 - > anticipated. 936 - > Um and I I know the listeners can't see me, but you can, 937 - > Nathan.
938 - > And if you look at my face, I'm only 21 years old. 939 - > But surely the best things to go after are difficult. 940 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, it will be complex, it will be complex to 941 - > start with, and then you as over time, you know, as time goes on, 942 - > you're gonna let learn, and you'll and you'll the learn in 943 - > generally engender things like oh, yeah, yeah, but that seems 944 - > quite simple now, now that we know. 945 - > Yeah.
946 - > Uh we we were talking about different um property types, and 947 - > can you get you know your assets into these different property 948 - > types, specifically heat pumps? 949 - > Are you are Obviously, most our country tends to always, when it 950 - > talks about heat pumps, air to water, despite the fact we like 951 - > to say we've got the biggest air to air commercial market in 952 - > Europe. 953 - > Um would you consider things like ground loops? 954 - > So where you you know people as you as you will know, you've 955 - > probably talked to them.
956 - > There's companies out there that can do boreholes and then 957 - > provide heat to some houses in a row, for instance. 958 - > Is that something you'd you'd consider? 959 - > SPEAKER_02: In the future, yes. 960 - > Uh for residential homes in the short term, it's not part of our 961 - > suite of products we're looking at, but we are looking at social 962 - > housing sector, it would probably work better, wouldn't 963 - > it?
964 - > Yeah, I think probably yes. 965 - > Um and of course, we do have within the business heat 966 - > networks that we might be able to build something with. 967 - > Uh, we do have um other heating options generally, but for the 968 - > retrofit resie area, um, I think the general direction is heat 969 - > pumps and or other low carbon heat that we mentioned before, 970 - > like the um smaller heat pumps with no external unit or go out 971 - > there infrared matting or something like that.
972 - > So I'm I I will consider a range of things. 973 - > Um and ground loops are something I will reconsider. 974 - > Um but it's not part of my current roadmap. 975 - > SPEAKER_00: And and things like air to air.
976 - > I mean, there was some social housing near to where I was 977 - > living, and the they they they put external wall insulation on 978 - > on a lot on a sort of all these rows of houses, which would have 979 - > cost an absolute fortune. 980 - > They only had one kitchen, one living room, and one bedroom. 981 - > Now I could heat that whole property with one mini split, 982 - > one four kilowatt mini split. 983 - > It cost 400 quid.
984 - > That's it. 985 - > And but look like again, people just didn't really. 986 - > I mean, people are starting to learn about air to air now, and 987 - > I know I talked to Desnes about it, and people like Nesta. 988 - > Um, but yeah, just they they spent thousands and thousands of 989 - > thousands.
990 - > The work wouldn't have been done very well pro good anyway, as 991 - > we're all now learning. 992 - > A lot of this external wall insulation goes on willy-nilly 993 - > and causes more problems than it's actually trying to to 994 - > alleviate. 995 - > But yeah, I mean, air to air would would work quite seriously 996 - > as well. 997 - > And of course, obviously, we've got people wishing they would 998 - > have air to air at the moment because you know, for them five 999 - > days of heat that we we all hate overheating, it's gonna pull 1000 - > that heat out, and that could all be run on batteries and 1001 - > solar, yeah, and your car battery.
1002 - > SPEAKER_02: Um Nathan, it sounds like you and I are gonna have to 1003 - > talk offline about um lots of options as well. 1004 - > SPEAKER_00: We should do, and uh I I can definitely help with 1005 - > your supply chain. 1006 - > Um, even if I have some of my guild engineers go out and just 1007 - > just look at what's been done and then just because they've 1008 - > done that with Bristol City Council. 1009 - > So Bristol City Council had a hundred MCS installs audited by 1010 - > MCS, and then one of my guild engineers went out and and told 1011 - > them what actually needed to be done and rectified.
1012 - > Um because it's the the problem in our industry, and 1013 - > understandably, when everyone came into all this, like when 1014 - > new utilities all came into it, it was understandable that 1015 - > everyone thought, right, if you're qualified and accredited, 1016 - > you know what you're doing, and that was far, far from the case, 1017 - > which is why all the heat pump trials, you go back to the 1018 - > energy savings trust heat pump trials 2009-2011 and the 1019 - > electrification heat trials, you know, the average uh seasonal 1020 - > performance of those assets wasn't great, and you know, like 1021 - > I say, it wasn't because cowboys were putting them in, it's 1022 - > people just didn't really know what they kind of could know, 1023 - > and it doesn't take a lot to get them to know it either.
1024 - > But but uh yeah, people have now started to realise that that's a 1025 - > bit of a challenge. 1026 - > Getting getting a real good skilled supply chain is one of 1027 - > the big challenges. 1028 - > I mean, obviously, Chris, you've got your challenges because 1029 - > that's all coding and geeky stuff and technology, which I 1030 - > understand nothing about, but all sounds quite exciting. 1031 - > What um are you allowed to work with other energy companies, or 1032 - > is it just uh you're just exclusive working with Ion?
1033 - > SPEAKER_03: Or yeah, well, great question. 1034 - > I guess we we work at Ion in a number of countries. 1035 - > Uh we're allowed to work with other companies, of course. 1036 - > Um, Zach being our preferred customer um over all others.
1037 - > Um uh yeah, but uh the you know there's always sort of first 1038 - > startups the the question of exclusivity. 1039 - > But uh I think the the important thing that we achieved with Next 1040 - > Energy Home, but also of course uh with some other customers in 1041 - > other countries, is to be first in the market to have the the 1042 - > you know the widest possible range of compatible options. 1043 - > If you know, even if it is, well, you know, um Zach will 1044 - > decide, well, we'll install this this OEM for heat pumps and this 1045 - > for inverters, it's great to have 10 other options available, 1046 - > um, just so we can offer the broadest possible range of 1047 - > solutions to then offer a standardized product.
1048 - > Um, so that you know, instead of um, you know, we're trying to 1049 - > always find solutions for utilities that are sort of mass 1050 - > market already and not sort of bespoke, you know, it will work 1051 - > for two homes, but to really use you know trials like this as 1052 - > well to figure out what you can scale to, as Zach mentioned 1053 - > before, 700,000 homes. 1054 - > SPEAKER_00: How did you get into the industry, Chris? 1055 - > We I mean I presume you you you're a coder, I presume, 1056 - > aren't you?
1057 - > You're you're one of the computer experts. 1058 - > So I mean, how did you sort of venture into the energy sector? 1059 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah. 1060 - > Uh well, I studied physics uh and then I learned in the code 1061 - > uh at university, uh, and you know, just doing side projects.
1062 - > Uh, and then I founded a company in the supply chain space, 1063 - > basically also analyzing data and making decisions. 1064 - > Uh, and then, you know, like all of us, we were at some point we 1065 - > were hooked in energy, um, trying to figure out how we 1066 - > could use more low carbon energy, sort of in a in a 1067 - > profitable way, because I believe that it's sort of the 1068 - > the thing that really drew me to the field was that he could he 1069 - > could build a solution that would be sort of cheaper costs, 1070 - > but also lower CO2 emissions.
1071 - > And I believe if you don't have, you know, if you don't uh win on 1072 - > the cheaper cost side as well, then it won't be adopted by the 1073 - > whole world. 1074 - > It will maybe a few people who want to do something good, but 1075 - > uh it needs to be adopted globally and worldwider than by 1076 - > the majority of the population. 1077 - > And so that's what got me me hooked in energy. 1078 - > Um I don't code anymore, sadly enough.
1079 - > Uh I mostly do talking now. 1080 - > Um, but uh uh now and then I I get to I get to interact with 1081 - > the product. 1082 - > Um I'm I'm testing it myself, of course, every day. 1083 - > Um so that's uh that's the the most fun I get to have.
1084 - > Um yeah, next to those podcasts, of course. 1085 - > SPEAKER_00: Are you guys um at any of the shows? 1086 - > Are you have you been at any of the shows this year, Zach? 1087 - > Or are you gonna be at the any of the shows, the events that 1088 - > are in the energy space?
1089 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, for my part, uh we don't exhibit at many of 1090 - > them. 1091 - > We exhibit it at Innovation Zero, uh, but I generally turn 1092 - > up and do panels and talks at Utility Week, Future of 1093 - > Utilities, and uh various other well-known I I also often just 1094 - > turning up and talking to as many people as possible at Solar 1095 - > and Storage, Future Build, um, and and various other UK 1096 - > conferences as well. 1097 - > SPEAKER_00: Now the the batteries, what was what was the 1098 - > brand of batteries you guys use?
1099 - > Solar Edge. 1100 - > Solar Edge. 1101 - > Now, obviously, again, I don't know anything about batteries. 1102 - > We've had a particular manufacturer don't exist now, do 1103 - > they?
1104 - > Which I suppose is may have put some customers off battery 1105 - > technology in their homes. 1106 - > If that happens to them with a particular brand, I mean I 1107 - > suppose again your solution mitigates that because you're a 1108 - > utility company. 1109 - > People, you know, if it did go bust a particular battery 1110 - > company you're using, you're you're scaled up to sort of deal 1111 - > with that, aren't you? 1112 - > SPEAKER_02: Uh that's true.
1113 - > Uh and as Chris said, there's the the monitoring that we can 1114 - > do throughout as well. 1115 - > But having said that, before we engage with any supplier, 1116 - > particularly batteries, we go through regardless of the 1117 - > testing that manufacturers had already, we have our own lab 1118 - > where we go through extensive and lengthy testing of those 1119 - > units as well. 1120 - > Uh and that's from multiple angles. 1121 - > That's from the performance um and uh other measures of the 1122 - > battery, but also then how, for example, the API works with 1123 - > Padero.
1124 - > So that goes through extensive testing in the lab as well, 1125 - > which we did with Solar Edge. 1126 - > unknown: Christian. 1127 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the lucky thing is oh, sorry. 1128 - > Uh no, the lucky thing is working with uh, you know, like 1129 - > huge companies like Eon is that they have significant ability to 1130 - > sway um those OEMs.
1131 - > So we actually um signed a couple of contracts through the 1132 - > introductions of Zach Miss team because it uh it is a lot easier 1133 - > to talk to Solar Edge if you're coming with Eon than if you're 1134 - > coming along. 1135 - > Um so that usually helps. 1136 - > And then of course we put through all the testing. 1137 - > Uh it's also nice that we have test devices, but it's really 1138 - > hard to test things on a theoretical level um without 1139 - > actually measuring the response, without measuring the data.
1140 - > Um, so that is that is, you know, we we have to do this from 1141 - > all physical angles, but also from all sort of software 1142 - > digital uh angles. 1143 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, I imagine the German RD team at Vale are 1144 - > quite enthusiastic because RD engineers are really very 1145 - > enthusiastic people. 1146 - > I mean, once you get up to the sort of the senior leadership 1147 - > senior, which are sales and marketing, you unfortunately, 1148 - > it's not there for I suppose, they don't tend to understand 1149 - > too much about their own technology.
1150 - > Whereas the RD engineers really, really do. 1151 - > And I don't do, I mean, do you work quite closely with them or 1152 - > is it just a case you get the API and away you go? 1153 - > SPEAKER_03: Well, the the interesting thing is the the 1154 - > supplier has sort of different incentives than than maybe Zach 1155 - > and I, uh, in that they want to sell the most amount of devices, 1156 - > right? 1157 - > And sort of um Zach wants to sell energy, the kilowatt hours, 1158 - > and I want to sell software traditionally, right?
1159 - > But now with the sort of next energy home, we have a solution 1160 - > where we fulfill sort of all our three needs in a perfect way to 1161 - > offer something that's that's better to customers than a 1162 - > standard product, where the the supplier gets to sell a device. 1163 - > Uh, they also get to ensure that the the usage of the device is 1164 - > is better than normal over the duration of the of the term. 1165 - > Um and for that reason, it's it's quite easy to work together 1166 - > with them, right?
1167 - > If you if you're not, if you if you if you can sort of show that 1168 - > you'll increase their sales numbers, then you may be in a 1169 - > situation where the supplier will ask, well, well, why should 1170 - > I do it? 1171 - > Is this really good for me? 1172 - > Will I not get more customer um support tickets? 1173 - > Um but more and more now the OEMs have realized that if they 1174 - > don't offer any you know interface for optimization that 1175 - > they'll be left behind by by the vast majority of suppliers who 1176 - > don't do it.
1177 - > So we we're seeing this shift in sentiment over the last two, 1178 - > three years uh to where now it's quite easy. 1179 - > But I guess the the beginning um was was quite challenging. 1180 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I imagine. 1181 - > And just speaking about RD generally, one of the things 1182 - > that I do speak to both Valent and Solar Edge particularly 1183 - > about is how we can you know, we're we're not all trying, 1184 - > we're all facing in the same direction.
1185 - > Not just I mean all of us um in the energy space, we're all 1186 - > generally facing the same direction. 1187 - > We want the same sort of things. 1188 - > And one of the things I'm keen to do with particularly Valent 1189 - > and Solar Edge, but all manufacturers as well, is to 1190 - > share maybe in general terms, but share where our product 1191 - > roadmaps are going, just in case there are synergies or things we 1192 - > should be working on together, or for in this specific case, 1193 - > something which might unlock a better feature of NextGen Home 1194 - > next year that would be good for our customers.
1195 - > So the closer we can work with all those organizations and 1196 - > their RD teams, the better. 1197 - > SPEAKER_00: Is there anything, Chris? 1198 - > You'd like to is there anything you'd like a heat pump to be 1199 - > able to do that it can't do yet? 1200 - > Talking from a phone.
1201 - > SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Nathan, for asking. 1202 - > Um now I have my wish list that I prepared together sacked 1203 - > before the call. 1204 - > Uh no, uh the uh uh I guess the or in order to so there's 1205 - > there's two ways to control an asset like a heat pump, right? 1206 - > You can easily say I'll control it by best efficiency.
1207 - > And that's very reasonable if you pay the same amount of um 1208 - > you know pounds per kilowatt hour or pence per kilowatt hour 1209 - > um throughout the day. 1210 - > But that's of course not the reality of the today's energy 1211 - > system. 1212 - > Today you pay a vast difference uh in you know uh at noon versus 1213 - > at maybe eight, eight, nine at night. 1214 - > And so the the best efficiency model of running a heat pump is 1215 - > no longer is sort of outdated, right?
1216 - > Because you need to optimize for the lowest cost curve. 1217 - > Um and that's sort of the the service that we provide together 1218 - > with with Ion. 1219 - > Now, the the tricky thing is that the the heat pumps 1220 - > parameters are still geared towards um you know efficiency. 1221 - > You see, so you see a lot of information about temperatures, 1222 - > about operating modes, whereas we care about what is the 1223 - > specific energy quantity that you can add to the system at 1224 - > which time, and when, you know, when do you have sort of an 1225 - > excess in energy that is already delivered, or you have uh a 1226 - > deficit which you have to catch up to.
1227 - > And so if there's one thing we'd like to see from OEMs, is that 1228 - > we could um have more uh granular information of how much 1229 - > heat a building needs at what time and how much heat it can 1230 - > defer to maybe two hours later. 1231 - > Because that is the that is the basis on which we optimize and 1232 - > which we trade, on which we then generate the savings uh for the 1233 - > end users and make the proposition work. 1234 - > Uh and so moving towards uh from efficiency to sort of keeping 1235 - > that uh you know that cost curve and the energy required um to to 1236 - > hit that cost curve in mind.
1237 - > It's a very technical request, uh, but it makes a big 1238 - > difference. 1239 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. 1240 - > Have have you guys chatted to Mick Wall? 1241 - > So Mick Wall uh has been a guest on my podcast a few times, he's 1242 - > got his own podcast now, and he's he's a consumer, but he's 1243 - > he is a he's a geek, he's a computer type, he works at the 1244 - > Sheffield University doing their IT systems, and he's got a 1245 - > valence system, he writes brilliant blog posts about it.
1246 - > He's got battery and solar as well. 1247 - > He came up with this uh sort of sound bite, um, the Holy 1248 - > Trinity, where the heat pump and solar and the battery all work 1249 - > together. 1250 - > But he he's he's got incredible data on his systems. 1251 - > It'd be good for you to chat to Chris and Zach.
1252 - > And uh he he runs um he's gonna kill me for not remembering he 1253 - > he does something where he he he analyses octopus' data, you 1254 - > know, time of tariff use and stuff like that. 1255 - > He he's quite well known now in in the sector, and he's a he's a 1256 - > lovely, lovely gentleman. 1257 - > But he he's got so much information around the 1258 - > particular units you're using and how they are working with 1259 - > batteries and and and so like he'd he'd be a good person to 1260 - > well you could go on his podcast as well.
1261 - > He's a lovely he's he's just started his own one. 1262 - > He he manages to get his on YouTube as well. 1263 - > He's he's more technically adept than me. 1264 - > I'll just stick to heating.
1265 - > Well, gentlemen, it's been great having you on. 1266 - > It sounds like uh an exciting little project uh you're 1267 - > involved in, Zach. 1268 - > I'm sure you're enjoying it. 1269 - > Um and then you're you you've got your eight your 18 people 1270 - > trial, home trial obviously continues.
1271 - > And and when are you gonna hope to sort of scale up to your 300 1272 - > one? 1273 - > Is that next year or later this year? 1274 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh I uh maybe toward maybe towards the very end of 1275 - > this year. 1276 - > Yeah.
1277 - > Uh but we've got to think about the optional time to install as 1278 - > well. 1279 - > Yeah. 1280 - > Um, so and you know, Christmas time is not the best time. 1281 - > So um probably not before December, but um the general 1282 - > gist is as soon as I can.
1283 - > SPEAKER_00: And and and I suppose what you've got you've 1284 - > got loads of customers, aren't you? 1285 - > I suppose what you you put out a little calling and and ask who's 1286 - > interested, don't you? 1287 - > And then you you can choose on different archetypes of homes, 1288 - > because obviously you want to you want your tests to be able 1289 - > to sort of test all sorts of things, don't you? 1290 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly that.
1291 - > We want to be very targeted in the the types of customers that 1292 - > we go through, so we will put out a proactive uh call, not 1293 - > just to our own customers, uh, but generally as well. 1294 - > Um, and whilst I've said it's 300 plus, um it'll be the right 1295 - > number of customers to give us a representative sample of people 1296 - > who some people are keen, some people who are less keen, and 1297 - > also uh it might be more than 300, who knows? 1298 - > Uh, but all that planning is going on right now.
1299 - > SPEAKER_00: Brilliant. 1300 - > Well, it's been great having you on, uh gentlemen. 1301 - > I hope you're gonna go away and enjoy this glorious weather 1302 - > we've got, but don't get burnt. 1303 - > Thank you for coming on, Chris, and thank you coming for coming 1304 - > on, Zach.
1305 - > Thank you. 1306 - > It's been great. 1307 - > Thank you. 1308 - > unknown: Thank you.
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