Behind the Brand with Bryan Elliott · 2026-06-29 · 51 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
46 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Brendan Kane walks through his journey from aspiring film producer to social media strategist, detailing how he created the first influencer campaign on YouTube in 2006 and later grew to one million followers in 30 days. The core insight is that social media success isn't about algorithms suppressing reach or requiring massive budgets - it's about understanding formats, the narrative structures that predate social media by decades (Man on the Street originated in 1954, two-character sketches in the 1920s). Kane emphasizes that platforms like YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram prioritize content that retains viewer attention because they need creators as fuel. He tested over 5,000 content variations using podcast clips, political commentary, motivational quotes, and other formats to understand what drives shareability and follower growth. The critical difference between successful and failed content often comes down to visual hierarchy, audience perception, and avoiding over-polish that triggers ad-avoidance instincts - details that take only seconds to make or break.
Yes, Kane states it costs nothing to scale audiences today - only time, resources, and energy. Many of his clients scale massive audiences using just mobile devices by focusing on effective storytelling rather than paid budgets.
Formats are repeatable narrative structures like Man on the Street or two-character sketches that have proven effective for decades. Hook Point researched over 300 formats across 15,000 hours; mastering one format is more effective than randomly creating different content types because the underlying structures work regardless of platform.
Failure often results from unclear visual hierarchy in the first three seconds, positioning that makes audiences think they already know what will happen, or over-polishing that triggers viewers' ad-avoidance instincts, rather than lack of inherent interest in the topic.
Kane says 99% of shadow-banning claims are actually cases where content isn't connecting with audiences, not platform suppression. Platforms rely on creators as fuel and prioritize content that retains attention to serve more ads, making organic reach possible without paid promotion.
Kane tested over 5,000 variations of content, including podcast clips, political commentary, motivational quotes, and pet videos, to understand what generates shares and converts them into followers.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are a handful of genuinely useful micro-concepts - visual hierarchy in the first three seconds, the 'work to wow ratio,' and the counter-intuitive observation that pre-acceptance rejections increase Man on the Street retention - but they are surrounded by long stretches of self-promotion, platitudes about storytelling mattering, and the host narrating his own career. The ratio of insight to filler is poor.
We call uh one of our performance drivers work to wow ratio. How hard does a viewer have to work in order to get, you know, useful information?
oftentimes if you put like a rejection, like one or two rejections before the actual acceptance, it actually causes um more retention
The most interesting idea - that viral social formats are not new inventions but recycled pre-social structures traceable to 1920s Buster Keaton or the 1954 Tonight Show - is a genuinely fresh reframe. Everything else (storytelling over hacks, focus on one platform, quality over quantity) is thoroughly standard content-marketing orthodoxy.
the first time that was used in video form was in 1954 for the first season of the Tonight Show
two characters, one light bulb. That was used back in the 1920s by a comedian Buster Keaton
Kane is a legitimate practitioner - he credibly claims the first YouTube influencer campaign in 2006 and ran a rigorous personal 5,000-variation experiment to hit a million followers - but by this episode he is primarily a consultant and book author, which shifts him toward 'professional expert' territory rather than active large-scale operator.
I ended up creating uh uh for one campaign, the first ever influencer campaign on YouTube uh in 2006 for a movie called Crank with Jason Statham
I tested over 5,000 variations of content during that time period
There are named platforms, named accounts (School of Hard Knocks, Body by Mark, Alex Stemp, Simon Scribb), real historical dates, and aggregate statistics, but the numbers are largely scale-of-internet facts rather than operational data a practitioner could use - no CAC, no conversion rates, no before/after client metrics beyond the Kevin O'Leary speaking-fee anecdote introduced by the host, not the guest.
5.2 billion people on social media today uploading upwards of 1 billion pieces of content across all these platforms every single day
our company Hookpoint, we have a research division that spent about 15,000 hours researching over 300 of these formats
The host occasionally frames a genuine challenge ('let me just push back on that') and asks a few decent directional questions, but consistently hijacks the conversation with extended personal anecdotes - the Honda Civic story, building Kevin O'Leary's channel, befriending Malcolm Gladwell - and never presses Kane on verifiable claims or mechanism. The episode ends with an unrelated rap interlude that underscores the lack of editorial discipline.
Now let me just push back on that or maybe play the other side of the coin
I remember years ago, uh as a director, I was pulling up to set. I was being paid well, uh, pulled up to set in a little Honda Civic
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Brendan Kane built a social media following of one million people in 30 days. Not with a big budget. Not with a team of 40 like Gary Vaynerchuk. Just relentless testing and a framework most people overlook entirely. Kane is the founder and CEO of HookPoint and the author of three books: "1 Million Followers," "Hook Point: How to Stand Out in a Three Second World," and "The Guide to Going Viral." He has spent over 20 years decoding what makes content break through on social media, and his findings might surprise you. In this episode, we dig into why storytelling is the only metric that matters, how formats rooted in 1920s entertainment still dominate today's feeds, and why 99% of creators are focused on the wrong things. Kane explains the science behind the three-second hook, what the algorithm is actually looking for, and how a creator with 10 followers can outperform one with 10 million. We also get into the costly mistakes brands and entrepreneurs make when trying to grow on social, why copying what works for someone else usually fails, and how to find the format that fits your personality and goals before you create a single piece of content.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_01: Why isn't it working for them if they're arguably 2 - > doing the same thing? 3 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, they're not doing the same thing because 4 - > there's nuance. 5 - > So it's like they're they're not having success because they 6 - > don't understand why the format works to begin with. 7 - > So it's and it's not it's not that it's becoming oversaturated 8 - > because this format has been around since the 50s in video 9 - > form and it and it doesn't die out.
10 - > Um it's kind of like I know both of us come from the movie 11 - > industry. 12 - > It's kind of like saying just because you use a 3x structure 13 - > means you're gonna make a good movie. 14 - > But we know that that's definitely not the truth. 15 - > Like it's your expression, it's your execution of it.
16 - > My name is Brendan Kane, and I'm the founder and CEO of Hook 17 - > Point and the author of One Million Followers, Hook Point: 18 - > How to Stand Out in a Three Second World and The Guide Going 19 - > Viral. 20 - > SPEAKER_01: Everyone, welcome to another episode of the show. 21 - > Brendan, welcome. 22 - > SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
23 - > It's a pleasure to connect with you and everybody that's tuning 24 - > into this. 25 - > SPEAKER_01: I usually ask my guests, how did you get this 26 - > job? 27 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I initially I initially wanted to produce 28 - > movies. 29 - > And um the the short story is I showed up in LA to pursue a 30 - > career in film, and I realized they didn't need another film 31 - > producer.
32 - > I could see everybody's eyes glaze over when they asked me 33 - > why'd you come to LA? 34 - > And I said I wanted to produce movies. 35 - > And uh the that reaction um pushed me into what I do today. 36 - > I had to kind of take a step back and see how could I provide 37 - > value um to this industry and ecosystem that I was new to.
38 - > And it just so happened at the time social media was just 39 - > coming on the scene. 40 - > This is around 2005, and uh started creating the first 41 - > social media campaigns for for movies and movie studios. 42 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 2005. 43 - > That's the year YouTube comes out, year after Google buys 44 - > them.
45 - > Uh, that same year, shortly after, Apple launches iPhone. 46 - > So a lot's happening. 47 - > Year after that, South by Southwest, you have Twitter. 48 - > Uh you know, and that breaks I think breaks the uh the wall of 49 - > social and just everything sort of comes you know unglued.
50 - > Like I remember real time, you know, social uh Twitter was 51 - > where where I was at, you know, uh governments were being 52 - > overthrown, uh people were communicating more one-to-one, 53 - > things news was happening in real time. 54 - > This is an exciting time in in uh in history, but also just an 55 - > evolution from digital into social. 56 - > So those are good times. 57 - > I remember it well.
58 - > And so um so so how did you go about that? 59 - > Not having any experience. 60 - > I mean, you wanted to be a producer, you wanted to make 61 - > movies, but that's a pretty big leap into cracking the code on 62 - > social. 63 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, when I was going to when I was going to 64 - > film school, I quickly realized I didn't teach you anything 65 - > about business in film school, so I started creating a few 66 - > companies on the side.
67 - > And the most cost-efficient way was to start online companies. 68 - > So I started a few online companies really to experiment 69 - > and learn of what it took to get something up and running and 70 - > manage it and things of that nature. 71 - > Um, so I learned a lot about kind of the internet at the 72 - > time, digital media, and things of that nature. 73 - > And as social media started to come on the scene, like again, 74 - > it was brand new to everybody.
75 - > So you just had to figure it out. 76 - > You know, you test, you learn, you study. 77 - > Uh, and I just saw an opportunity at the simplest form 78 - > of uh that there were people creating content, um, some of 79 - > them from their bedrooms and reaching millions of people. 80 - > So my initial thought is well, why not tap into those people 81 - > and those audiences to effectively promote movies?
82 - > And nobody was really doing it at the time. 83 - > Uh so uh I ended up creating uh uh for one campaign, the first 84 - > ever influencer campaign on YouTube uh in 2006 for a movie 85 - > called Crank with Jason Statham. 86 - > So I kind of just looked at like at a high level, like what why 87 - > are these platforms um like what is what because they weren't 88 - > really, I wouldn't say that they were like succeeding, because at 89 - > that time, like 2005, 2006, it was so brand new.
90 - > Like, and people really weren't paying attention to them. 91 - > Uh it was just kind of like, hey, this is an interesting 92 - > thing where these people are creating content, just you know, 93 - > distributing it themselves on these platforms, and they're 94 - > connecting uh with millions of people, so why not tap into 95 - > that? 96 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was you know, it was Mr. 97 - > Beast counting to you know a million.
98 - > It was not like what it is today where he's storytelling and 99 - > there's a whole arc and he's giving away Lamborghinis. 100 - > Literally, it's just a 15-year-old kid in his bedroom, 101 - > you know, counting as high as he can count. 102 - > Um random, you know, cat videos, uh people making content from 103 - > their bedrooms. 104 - > Yeah, it was it was the uh the Wild West, but also not much to 105 - > it, not much thought to it.
106 - > I agree. 107 - > Yeah. 108 - > Um so you eventually built uh you know, this structure, this 109 - > platform that allowed you to like grow um to a million 110 - > followers in 30 days, but like it had to cost real money. 111 - > I mean, uh Facebook ads or whatever you're doing to to grow 112 - > that.
113 - > Was it all organic? 114 - > Was there some uh paid to it? 115 - > Like what does it actually cost to start something from zero and 116 - > do what you did? 117 - > SPEAKER_02: And today it costs nothing, it costs time and 118 - > resources and energy.
119 - > You do not need a budget to to scale and grow an audience. 120 - > Um, a lot of our our clients today, they're scaling massive 121 - > audiences with just their their mobile devices. 122 - > It's it it really is how effective you can be as a 123 - > storyteller, and the better the storyteller become, the faster 124 - > that you can grow and scale. 125 - > Um, because uh people kind of misunderstand these social 126 - > platforms.
127 - > Um, one such misunderstanding or myth is that they suppress your 128 - > reach on purpose in order to get you to pay to use ads to get 129 - > your content to be seen. 130 - > Um the reality is or shadow banned, yeah. 131 - > 99% of the time when I'm looking at people that claim to be 132 - > shadow banned, it's not. 133 - > It's just their content is not connecting.
134 - > Um, but the reality is is these platforms rely on us as content 135 - > creators. 136 - > We are the fuel that run them. 137 - > It's not like Disney, Fox, you know, uh Netflix, where they're 138 - > investing billions of dollars in original content for you know, 139 - > these platforms, whether it's Hulu or Disney Plus or Netflix, 140 - > any of these. 141 - > The these social platforms rely on us to create content to keep 142 - > people on these platforms.
143 - > If it was just about money, then Mr. 144 - > Beast wouldn't be the most subscribed person on YouTube. 145 - > It would be Apple or McDonald's or Coca-Cola, these companies 146 - > that spend billions of dollars a year advertising their products. 147 - > They are looking for content that can retain audiences' 148 - > attention, meaning they want content that can keep people on 149 - > these platforms longer so they can serve more ads and thus to 150 - > generate profit.
151 - > So the reality is in even today, even the size of your audience 152 - > to start with doesn't mean as much as it used to. 153 - > You literally can start with a hundred followers, 10 followers, 154 - > and if you tell the right story, it can reach millions and 155 - > millions of people. 156 - > SPEAKER_01: So let's break down down a little bit. 157 - > What is telling the right story look like?
158 - > And is it, you know, is there are there formats? 159 - > Is there an algorithm that you need to tap into? 160 - > Is there a formula? 161 - > Break it down and walk us through.
162 - > unknown: Yeah. 163 - > SPEAKER_02: So first starting with the algorithm, as I 164 - > mentioned, the algorithm is looking for one thing, and that 165 - > is retention. 166 - > So they're looking for content that they can see to millions of 167 - > people that stop them in their tracks and cause them to watch a 168 - > significant portion or all of the content, all of the video 169 - > that has been created. 170 - > Uh we need to look at the world through formats.
171 - > You mentioned formats. 172 - > So for those of people that are not familiar with what the 173 - > format is, um I'll just give you a few examples. 174 - > Uh, one that I'm sure everybody has seen is Man on the Street. 175 - > You know, you approach a random stranger on the street and a 176 - > story unfolds.
177 - > Now, the beauty of a format is a format is a structure that's 178 - > designed to incorporate any type of message. 179 - > So for Man on the Street, there are school of hard knocks that 180 - > approaches um very successful people and asks them, How'd you 181 - > make your first million dollars? 182 - > There's Body by Mark that approaches fitness people and 183 - > asks, what is your fitness routine? 184 - > Um, there's Alex Stemp, who's a professional photographer that 185 - > approaches strangers and asks if he can give them a professional 186 - > photo shoot.
187 - > So these formats are structures that you can insert your content 188 - > into. 189 - > Um, another example is two characters, one light bulb. 190 - > It's where the same person plays two different characters and 191 - > they break down a common myth or misconception about an industry 192 - > or society or culture, things of that nature. 193 - > Um, then there is like real estate property tours where you 194 - > have a guy like Ryan Surhant that's touring the most 195 - > luxurious properties in the world.
196 - > So at our company Hookpoint, we have a research division that 197 - > spent about 15,000 hours researching over 300 of these 198 - > formats. 199 - > The reason I say that is there's an abundance of formats out 200 - > there that you can select from to express your message, express 201 - > your brand. 202 - > Now, the fascinating thing is a lot of these formats were 203 - > designed pre-social media. 204 - > People think social media is this mystery black box that you 205 - > need some magic wand or magic key to unlock the algorithm.
206 - > But you look at Man on the Street, the first time that was 207 - > used in video form was in 1954 for the first season of the 208 - > Tonight Show. 209 - > You've got um the two characters, one light bulb. 210 - > That was used back in the 1920s by a comedian Buster Keaton. 211 - > And more recently, people would remember Austin Powers.
212 - > The first movie came out in 1997 where the actor Mike Myers plays 213 - > Austin Powers and Dr. 214 - > Evil. 215 - > Then you look at like the home property tours from like Ryan 216 - > Sirhand. 217 - > Well, that goes back, I don't know when the first season was, 218 - > probably the early 80s of the lifestyles of the rich and 219 - > famous with Robin Leach.
220 - > So, so really, when we look at social media, it is not some 221 - > kind of brand new mystery. 222 - > It is history repeating itself. 223 - > And the structures that have proven itself prior to social 224 - > media apply to telling great stories on these platforms. 225 - > So, what we always kind of look at and recommend is find the 226 - > format that you want to execute and become a master of that 227 - > format.
228 - > Like it's the same thing of like um going to film school is like 229 - > you spent all this time learning the three-act structure because 230 - > every movie over the past hundred years uses the same 231 - > format. 232 - > And you only get good at something when you really study 233 - > it. 234 - > You study the the successful use cases versus the unsuccessful 235 - > use cases. 236 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
237 - > Um say more about um the the format or formats that you use 238 - > to build to a million followers in 30 days. 239 - > SPEAKER_02: So I tested over 5,000 variations of content 240 - > during that time period, and that was really an experiment. 241 - > It was an experiment about what type of content does it take to 242 - > get somebody to share that content and allow those shares 243 - > to turn into follows. 244 - > So for me, that experiment wasn't uh the first time I did 245 - > it, wasn't really about like, I want to build myself into a 246 - > specific type of brand.
247 - > It was more a market research test of like what does it take 248 - > to actually generate followers at scale? 249 - > So um I leveraged podcast clips, so podcast as a format, um, 250 - > political commentary, um, motivational and inspirational 251 - > quotes. 252 - > I even test tested like pet videos and things of that nature 253 - > to all kind of understand like what does it take to get 254 - > somebody to share something at a high velocity and then turn that 255 - > shareability into follows.
256 - > SPEAKER_01: What surprised you uh during that testing time? 257 - > Because I sometimes I feel, and I can speak for personal 258 - > opinion, like I I think I've caught the most interesting, 259 - > compelling, uh, interesting, heart-stopping clip. 260 - > And it falls flat. 261 - > And then I don't take any time, any thought, no strategy.
262 - > I just clip something and it just goes crazy viral for for 263 - > some unknown reason to me. 264 - > So I mean, sometimes it's deliberate, and I I know this is 265 - > gonna be a banger. 266 - > Other times it's like I'm completely surprised. 267 - > So uh weigh in on this.
268 - > What are your thoughts on what I just said? 269 - > SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of nuance that goes into content 270 - > breaking through. 271 - > Um, first understand that there's 5.2 billion people on 272 - > social media today uploading upwards of 1 billion pieces of 273 - > content across all these platforms every single day.
274 - > So the amount of content that you're competing against to 275 - > break through is enormous. 276 - > It's literally survival of the fittest of the best 277 - > storytellers. 278 - > So when you're competing at that level, oftentimes you're talking 279 - > about seconds or fractions of seconds that dictates whether 280 - > your your content connects and retains audiences' attention or 281 - > falls flat. 282 - > So it could be as simple as like, like a big mistake people 283 - > make in the first three seconds is not having a clear visual 284 - > hierarchy.
285 - > So they'll have like a title card, they'll have captions, and 286 - > they'll have somebody moving. 287 - > And your subconscious brain, which is making the decision for 288 - > most of the time of what you're gonna stop and pay attention to, 289 - > can't figure out like what am I supposed to be paying attention 290 - > to? 291 - > And the minute it feels like it's get getting left behind, 292 - > then it scrolls past. 293 - > Or your content is positioned into something that the audience 294 - > thinks they already know what's gonna happen and they've seen it 295 - > before, which can do that.
296 - > In addition, oftentimes when you kind of put too much polish on 297 - > content, it triggers something in our subconscious brain to 298 - > see, like, oh, this is probably gonna be an ad, so I'm gonna 299 - > scroll past it. 300 - > Because it's with a click of a finger, you can just scroll and 301 - > scroll and scroll and scroll. 302 - > So I know it kind of feels like virality is is is random, but 303 - > there's always a reason behind why a certain piece of content 304 - > breaks through versus another one falls flat.
305 - > SPEAKER_01: And how about um a piece of content going viral on 306 - > one platform but not on another? 307 - > So like the identical clip. 308 - > Now, I you know, I'm seasoned enough to know that the 309 - > ecosystems are different. 310 - > You know, like what works on YouTube doesn't work on TikTok 311 - > because they're different platforms for different people.
312 - > The consumption patterns and habits are different. 313 - > But speak to that a little bit. 314 - > SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what you just said. 315 - > Yeah, user interface is different, it's unique.
316 - > Um, even though like TikTok seems very similar to Instagram 317 - > Reels, there's unique differences to that. 318 - > And there's unique differences to how these platforms work, is 319 - > like Instagram really favors shareability and DMs and 320 - > communicating and connecting through content through DMs 321 - > versus TikTok doesn't. 322 - > So each each platform is designed and set up in different 323 - > ways that dictates what type of formats work per per platform.
324 - > So it's really these these nuances that cause a piece of 325 - > content to succeed on one platform at a very high level 326 - > and and not break through on another. 327 - > SPEAKER_01: So how does one then, you know, if we've chosen 328 - > a format, you know, per your uh direction and advice, if let's 329 - > say it's Man on the Street. 330 - > Uh how are we customizing that format for each platform? 331 - > How do we how do we know how to break it down from YouTube to 332 - > TikTok to Instagram?
333 - > Those are basically our three most popular visual programs of 334 - > platforms right now. 335 - > SPEAKER_02: So there's a few ways to look at that. 336 - > Number one is I I highly recommend focus on one platform 337 - > to dial in and get good at. 338 - > That doesn't mean you can't take that same content and post it to 339 - > other platforms.
340 - > By all means, do that. 341 - > But we want to make sure that we can actually master one platform 342 - > versus trying to master all the platforms at the same time. 343 - > Yeah. 344 - > Because by mastering one platform, it allows you to spot 345 - > those nuances.
346 - > Now, the process that we go through in order to really 347 - > understand what takes a format to succeed is we will take a 348 - > specific format on a specific account on a specific social 349 - > platform. 350 - > So let's just take like School of Hard Knocks, for example, 351 - > because they're doing really well. 352 - > So we'll look at School of Hard Knocks using Man on the Street 353 - > specifically on TikTok. 354 - > And what our research team will do is they'll spend about 15 to 355 - > 20 hours cross-analyzing the high performers versus the low 356 - > performers to really diagnose what qualitative elements and 357 - > nuances are driving performance versus detracting from 358 - > performance.
359 - > Now, we start with TikTok, but if we want to then master 360 - > Instagram and we're not seeing that correlation, we'll do the 361 - > same thing on Instagram, same format, same account to see if 362 - > there's any distinct differences in terms of how that content 363 - > performs on that separate platform. 364 - > SPEAKER_01: Gotcha. 365 - > Okay. 366 - > So yeah, it really is.
367 - > I think that's great advice. 368 - > Um, focusing on, you know, becoming the master of one 369 - > first, and then learning, taking key learnings from that and 370 - > trying to apply it, and then tweaking, making adjustments to 371 - > to one or the other. 372 - > Um let's go back to your books for a minute. 373 - > So you've written three books which seem to sort of build off 374 - > the last, you know.
375 - > So you have um you know, one million followers, and uh the 376 - > what is the second book title again? 377 - > How to stand out with three second world. 378 - > And then you have guide to going viral. 379 - > So uh each book, there's about five years between the first and 380 - > the last, right?
381 - > Uh well, maybe six years. 382 - > SPEAKER_02: No, there's well, so so the the tricky thing is each 383 - > book's been written a few, rewritten a few times. 384 - > Yeah um the guide to going viral, the first version, or not 385 - > the guide going one million followers, the first version 386 - > came out in 2017. 387 - > Okay.
388 - > Um, but I I rewrote each or that book at least three or four 389 - > times. 390 - > Yeah. 391 - > Um just by updating it. 392 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
393 - > SPEAKER_02: The first version of Hook Point came out in 2020. 394 - > We just released a new version, I think, in 2025, and then the 395 - > guide to going viral came out in 2025 as well. 396 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay. 397 - > So yeah, uh about 10 years from the first book to now.
398 - > So um, and it sounds like you have made updates, but my 399 - > question was going to be like, what what did you get wrong or 400 - > what has changed since um one million followers to Guide to 401 - > Going Viral? 402 - > Uh I know a lot's happened in the last decade of social media, 403 - > but like, was there anything that you sort of uh was more 404 - > obvious that you missed or left out of the first book that you 405 - > included in the last book just because you've learned so much 406 - > and roamed so much and understand the space?
407 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think one of the biggest changes obviously is 408 - > the amount of people that have joined social media and are 409 - > creating content on these platforms, which has made it a 410 - > lot more cutthroat and um nuanced to succeed um today 411 - > versus back then. 412 - > Uh I think that one of the biggest the biggest things is 413 - > just how important storytelling is. 414 - > Like I don't think I really kind of understood that back in 2017 415 - > or 2016 when I was writing the book.
416 - > And it's kind of interesting because I started in a 417 - > storytelling environment and storytelling uh industry. 418 - > But I think like that that's the biggest thing, you know, just 419 - > looking back on it is how important storytelling is. 420 - > And and as we were just talking about, is like how history is 421 - > just repeating itself and what has worked decades earlier works 422 - > today. 423 - > And that the most important thing is um, and focusing on you 424 - > know, excelling in social media is is kind of push away like all 425 - > of the information about like hacks and hashtags and time of 426 - > day and frequency, like forget all those things.
427 - > Like the most important thing is like, can you actually tell an 428 - > effective story that grabs people's attention and wants 429 - > them to watch more of your content? 430 - > I mean, it's it's very simplistic, it's not easy, but 431 - > it's a very simple formula to success. 432 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 433 - > And you know, we've talked about school of hard knocks.
434 - > Uh, I like what those guys are doing. 435 - > It's sort of a reinvention of what I've been doing for a 436 - > decade. 437 - > Um, I've been focused on YouTube, more midform, long 438 - > form, and school of hard knocks has been focused on short form. 439 - > Killing the game.
440 - > Um, it's a different format than we've got, but it's super 441 - > effective. 442 - > Now, let me just push back on that or maybe play the other 443 - > side of the coin, which is when I watch their stuff, um, I also 444 - > see Man in the Street being done by lots of other people who are 445 - > trying to jump in that space who do the similar thing to School 446 - > of Hard Knocks. 447 - > Why isn't it working for them? 448 - > If it's kind of the same format and the same kind of thing, is 449 - > it because it's it's being played out now?
450 - > Or because it's no longer about followers and subscribers. 451 - > It's you know, we're in the attention economy where you're 452 - > right. 453 - > You could have one to ten followers on TikTok and and hit 454 - > a banger and that thing goes viral. 455 - > Talk about that for a minute.
456 - > So other people jumping into the space uh imitating the format. 457 - > Well, why isn't it working for them if they're arguably doing 458 - > the same thing? 459 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, they're not doing the same thing because 460 - > there's nuance. 461 - > So it's like they're they're not having success because they 462 - > don't understand why the format works to begin with.
463 - > So it's e in And it's not, it's not that it's becoming 464 - > oversaturated because this format has been around since the 465 - > 50s in video form and it doesn't die out. 466 - > Um, it's kind of like you know, both of us come from the movie 467 - > industry. 468 - > It's kind of like saying just because you use a 3x structure 469 - > means you're gonna make a good movie. 470 - > Well, we know that that's definitely not the truth.
471 - > Like it's your expression, it's your execution of it. 472 - > Well, yeah. 473 - > Yeah. 474 - > I mean, so that is the the element, is like if you're not 475 - > succeeding, there's a reason you're not succeeding.
476 - > So, like, literally, what we will do with clients is we'll, 477 - > like, for example, Manus Street, we'll put the School of Hard 478 - > Knocks a high performer on one side of the screen, and they're 479 - > underperforming it uh elements on the other side of the screen, 480 - > we'll watch them side by side. 481 - > And if you're really honest about it and pay attention, you 482 - > can tell the difference. 483 - > Like, there is a difference. 484 - > It's not just because the school of hard knocks is is is has some 485 - > magic key or is spending a bunch of money in order to create 486 - > these um content that that that drives that performance.
487 - > It's literally in the nuances of how they tell a story. 488 - > So, like what are those nuances? 489 - > Well, it can be in in the actual reaction of the person they're 490 - > interviewing. 491 - > It can be, you know, how do they actually approach the person on 492 - > the street?
493 - > What is the initial question they ask? 494 - > What is the framing? 495 - > Like, what is the, you know, is there a perspective shift, you 496 - > know, in the actual interview that gives somebody this aha 497 - > moment? 498 - > Um, we call uh one of our performance drivers work to wow 499 - > ratio.
500 - > How hard does a viewer have to work in order to get, you know, 501 - > useful information? 502 - > You know, how effective is the hook? 503 - > Like, how are they using title cards or captions or things? 504 - > Are they using it?
505 - > Are they overusing it? 506 - > Like, what is the tonality of the host? 507 - > Is the host interrupting the person? 508 - > Like, is the audio quality good enough that you can hear them?
509 - > There's all these variables that go into the successful use case 510 - > of a specific format. 511 - > So it's not just, hey, I'm going to, I look at what School of 512 - > Hard Knocks is doing. 513 - > Oh, that's so easy. 514 - > I'm just going to do the same thing.
515 - > It's not, and even if you go back and look at the School of 516 - > Hard Knocks of you all the way in the beginning, they weren't 517 - > killing it. 518 - > Like they had to learn the progression of what it took to 519 - > make these videos successful. 520 - > SPEAKER_01: And and uh at what point did they start working 521 - > with you or did you reach out to them? 522 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't, I don't, we didn't work with 523 - > School of Hard Knocks.
524 - > We just did research on their account. 525 - > So we've we we research accounts every week, every day to 526 - > understand um to understand what formats are working and why 527 - > they're working. 528 - > SPEAKER_01: Like case studies. 529 - > I gotcha.
530 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 531 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 532 - > I think another one that you sort of mentioned it was subtle. 533 - > I want to just underscore it for the audience here.
534 - > It's and it's also a big, you know, storytelling uh element, 535 - > and that is what's at stake. 536 - > And so if we're using you know their content as a case study, I 537 - > would say, you know, like interrupting millionaires or 538 - > billionaires, there's a lot at stake. 539 - > You know, you could get thrown out on your ass. 540 - > SPEAKER_02: Or well, it's one of the reasons Man of the Street 541 - > works is there's the unknown factor of approaching a random 542 - > stranger.
543 - > You do not know what's going to happen. 544 - > And that's why that format has a high ceiling. 545 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 546 - > SPEAKER_02: If you um if you execute it properly.
547 - > Simon Scribb is another one that that excels at this format of 548 - > approaching people and asking what is their dream. 549 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 550 - > And I like Simon because he'll also show the failures when he 551 - > asks someone and he gets totally ignored or he gets a terrible. 552 - > SPEAKER_02: The thing is, that is a performance driver, as 553 - > we've seen that we've seen that a lot in um Man on the Street is 554 - > oftentimes if you put like a rejection, like one or two 555 - > rejections before the actual acceptance, it actually causes 556 - > um more retention.
557 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what do you think the psychology behind that 558 - > is? 559 - > Is it the vulnerability? 560 - > Is it the relatability? 561 - > SPEAKER_02: I think it's more so the again, the unpredictability 562 - > is like what is if this guy keeps getting rejected, is 563 - > somebody going to get violent?
564 - > Is somebody gonna yell? 565 - > Like it just like the the format just has this unpredictability, 566 - > unpredictable nature that causes you to lean in. 567 - > SPEAKER_01: And so um when you're working with clients or 568 - > you're evaluating which format is going to work best, is it 569 - > just a process of elimination, or do you have like a top five, 570 - > like, okay, I want to try I want to audition these formats first 571 - > because I think for this type of content that's gonna be the best 572 - > fit.
573 - > What's the selection process look like? 574 - > SPEAKER_02: So we we do a pretty deep matchmaking process. 575 - > Um, and this is the reason why we've done so much research 576 - > because number one, the format needs to really connect with you 577 - > and speak to you as a person. 578 - > You need to be excited about creating it.
579 - > Yeah. 580 - > Because if you're not, if it's like, like for example, like to 581 - > be transparent, like I tried Man on the Street myself and it 582 - > didn't work because I'm an introvert. 583 - > Like I don't want to go out there and just approach random 584 - > strangers. 585 - > So yeah, and that's a big part of like finding the format is 586 - > like if you're not enjoying it or if you're not fueled by it in 587 - > some way, that's gonna show up on camera, even really on a 588 - > subconscious level, but it's gonna show up and disconnect you 589 - > from the audience.
590 - > Yeah. 591 - > So we look at like their personality types, like what are 592 - > their communication strengths and weaknesses? 593 - > We look at what resources they have. 594 - > Like, do you just is it yourself and an iPhone?
595 - > Do you have a camera setup? 596 - > Do you have a camera crew? 597 - > Um, how much time do you want to spend creating content? 598 - > What is your experience level in creating content?
599 - > We look at all these variables to understand what would be the 600 - > best fit in terms of formats to start out with. 601 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 602 - > Yeah. 603 - > And so there is no one size fits all answer or a top five list.
604 - > It's it's all made to order. 605 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes. 606 - > Because again, a lot of it's personality driven of like what 607 - > the person connects with. 608 - > Like I never want to say, go do Man on the Street because it 609 - > performs and you and you're an introvert and you hate talking 610 - > to strangers.
611 - > Like, I mean, that's just gonna, it's not it's not gonna turn out 612 - > well. 613 - > Even if you do get some viral hits, you're eventually gonna 614 - > burn yourself out and be like, I don't want to do this anymore. 615 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, I've seen a fair amount of that 616 - > too. 617 - > You can kind of tell that that um people are kind of sick of 618 - > it.
619 - > It it it translates, uh, even if they're still doing it. 620 - > That's true. 621 - > Um, so this series is called Behind the Brand. 622 - > Let's let's weigh in on uh what you think a brand is, and maybe 623 - > we'll put it in the context of personal branding, because it 624 - > seems to be a lot about what you're writing about.
625 - > So, you know, sure, you know, Apple or uh Google or some, you 626 - > know, some of these bigger uh consumer brand companies can 627 - > utilize uh your knowledge to build brand, build community. 628 - > But let's let's maybe talk about people who are building personal 629 - > brands. 630 - > Uh, first of all, what do you think a brand is? 631 - > And then tell me what you think the Brendan Kane brand is.
632 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not the foremost expert. 633 - > I think the guy that introduced introduced us, Chris Doe, is the 634 - > best person to give the the articulate definition of a 635 - > brand. 636 - > I think I can speak to it from a personal brand standpoint, which 637 - > I think it's it's just um a front-facing expression of who 638 - > you are in the world and what you represent. 639 - > And that representation can be just a personal brand business.
640 - > It can be the the the front-facing brand of a company, 641 - > a product that you're selling. 642 - > But I think it's like it's expressing what you stand for 643 - > and how you show up in the world that has the ultimate impact on 644 - > whether people know, like, and trust you and are willing to 645 - > take that next step to take the action that you that you want 646 - > them to take. 647 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that tracks with, you know, I've 648 - > asked probably over a thousand people the same question.
649 - > Um I think that tracks with some of the better answers I've got. 650 - > I I think if I was gonna add my two cents, um you know, your 651 - > your brand is not your window dressing. 652 - > You know, it's uh it can enhance or support or help align or 653 - > communicate what your brand is, you know, what you're wearing, 654 - > uh what you say, how you say it. 655 - > Uh, but you know, brand is not your logo and it's not the 656 - > clothes you wear or the car you drive.
657 - > Um I remember years ago, uh as a director, I was pulling up to 658 - > set. 659 - > I was being paid well, uh, pulled up to set in a little 660 - > Honda Civic that I was driving that had probably 220 something 661 - > mile, a thousand miles on it. 662 - > And I remember getting this look from my client who watched me 663 - > get out of this beater, and he said, Oh, this is your car. 664 - > And I read through the lines, which um I realized was really 665 - > important actually for uh positioning.
666 - > It's why we don't always bring smaller cameras to uh shoots. 667 - > I mean, here's a small little uh SLR camera, for example, and 668 - > this is one of the more you know smaller run and gun stuff. 669 - > This is probably a$5,000 camera setup. 670 - > Even you know, by today's standards, it's a small camera 671 - > setup.
672 - > And so sometimes the optics matter, you know, but ultimately 673 - > brands are distinct. 674 - > Um when you start looking the same as everyone else, you sort 675 - > of fall into this category of commodity. 676 - > And so, like if you know we're talking about formats, if you're 677 - > just uh doing a format to repeat it because it's been 678 - > successfully done by someone else in, you're in danger of 679 - > jumping into a commodity. 680 - > Brands are distinct, they're different.
681 - > And um and it's not like how to be better or faster or stronger, 682 - > it's about being different. 683 - > How can you differentiate um from other big ones? 684 - > So uh I like what you said about that. 685 - > Uh how how would you describe your personal brand?
686 - > SPEAKER_02: I think that my personal brand, it really is 687 - > about you know, the thing that drives me is how do you stand 688 - > out at the highest levels? 689 - > Like what causes something to break through versus falling 690 - > flat? 691 - > And the basis of how I always come to that answer is through 692 - > constant experimentation, research, and learning. 693 - > So I'm always testing new things, trying new things to 694 - > learn what is the best way to break through at the highest 695 - > levels and learn from why you you fail to to do that same 696 - > thing, and then sharing that knowledge with the world.
697 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 698 - > Why are you in London and not back in LA doing this? 699 - > What why why that area of the world? 700 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, so I split time between Austin, Texas, uh 701 - > London and Portugal.
702 - > I fell out of love with LA during COVID when I when it just 703 - > kind of went south. 704 - > I had spent 15 years in LA, and I just was kind of I was just 705 - > kind of done with it. 706 - > Um, and the beauty of the work that I do, um, and I learned 707 - > this very early in my career. 708 - > I I just know how to build things, communicate with people 709 - > in a fully remote situation.
710 - > I mean, I built some early social media technology 711 - > platforms as early as um 2007, and I was forced to hire remote 712 - > developers from all over the world to help me um create those 713 - > things. 714 - > Uh so for me, the location doesn't really matter as much. 715 - > Um, and uh yeah, I just kind of fell in love with or fell out of 716 - > love with LA during that whole kind of COVID side of things and 717 - > um have been jumping around ever since. 718 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it also speaks to the idea that you 719 - > know, going back to content creation or becoming successful 720 - > achieving your goals.
721 - > You don't have to live in the hottest city, you don't have to 722 - > be in New York with Casey Neistatt. 723 - > Well, maybe it's not Casey Neistat's story anymore, but you 724 - > know, you don't have to be in these hot cities with quotes uh 725 - > to be Yeah, I think it's funny because Chris Doe and I had a 726 - > pretty big debate about this on our last podcast, the last 727 - > podcast I was on. 728 - > SPEAKER_02: I was in the same boat as you, but he was saying 729 - > no, there is a big benefit to to being in these cities.
730 - > I was like, man, like you could be anywhere. 731 - > Like it it sh it's like you look at Mr. 732 - > Beast, you know, he's in what North Carolina and like the most 733 - > subscribed person on YouTube. 734 - > It's just yeah, I I I really don't think that you have to be 735 - > in a specific geolocation outside of the fact that you 736 - > need a Wi-Fi connection and at least like a phone camera to be 737 - > able to do it.
738 - > If you're living obviously in the in in the middle of nowhere 739 - > or in a very poor environment that doesn't have Wi-Fi or the 740 - > ability to create content, then that's going to work against 741 - > you. 742 - > But outside of those variables, um I I think that you literally 743 - > can be anywhere in in the world and and you know, build an 744 - > audience and create effective content. 745 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 746 - > Now, if you uh have a production company like mine, um you could 747 - > argue that proximity matters.
748 - > Yeah, that's different because you're servicing you're 749 - > servicing clients and you're relying on other people to pick 750 - > you or to find you know, it's just about the size of the 751 - > watering hole. 752 - > You know, how many fish are in that pond? 753 - > You know, um if you're you're fishing in a small pond, then 754 - > you've got that many fish if you're fishing in a bigger 755 - > ocean, like LA, New York, Austin, Atlanta, et cetera, you 756 - > know.
757 - > So yeah, um sort of rounding third coming home here, I want 758 - > to go back to maybe some of these mistakes that you've made. 759 - > A lot of people don't like to talk about the F-word of 760 - > failure. 761 - > Uh, but you know, I've I think the way I frame it is, you know, 762 - > sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. 763 - > So what are some of these things that you've learned or you know, 764 - > made mistakes or failed at in order to get to where you are 765 - > now?
766 - > Uh maybe some of these things back to you know, what surprised 767 - > you about the evolution of how you've built this architecture 768 - > of instruction, of how you teach people how to build audiences. 769 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that the earliest stages of social 770 - > media were were really about tactics and hacks, um, and these 771 - > little tricks that you could figure out how to manipulate the 772 - > early versions of versions of social media to game the system 773 - > to your advantage.
774 - > Um, and I think that there was an over-reliance in the 775 - > beginning to kind of look for those things instead of looking 776 - > at the larger picture, as we mentioned earlier, of like, 777 - > well, how do you actually just connect with an audience? 778 - > You know, and I think that that that was a progression, you 779 - > know, I've been doing this for you know, going on on 21 years. 780 - > I I think that, you know, those earliest stages, I think that 781 - > there was a lot of time spent trying to figure out how you 782 - > shortcut your your yourself in front of the line, how you build 783 - > these these audiences through more tactics than actual 784 - > storytelling.
785 - > And, you know, it took quite a while to do that. 786 - > And there were some reasons, you know, early on, these social 787 - > media platforms were easier to game because there was less 788 - > content on the platform. 789 - > So they would favor, for example, frequency, just by the 790 - > sheer fact if if you were to post more, you would get more 791 - > eyeballs. 792 - > Versus today, that's just not the case.
793 - > It's not just the about volume, it's it's it's really about the 794 - > quality of content. 795 - > So I think, you know, in those earlier days, I think there was 796 - > a lot of time and energy wasted looking for those elements 797 - > instead of really looking at the larger picture of what is going 798 - > to be um truly meaningfully, meaningful and and valuable in 799 - > the long term. 800 - > SPEAKER_01: Is now the best time or the worst time to get 801 - > started?
802 - > I mean, with so much out there. 803 - > Yeah. 804 - > SPEAKER_02: The best time. 805 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's counterintuitive, right?
806 - > You're saying how many billions of people are on social media 807 - > and how many billions of hours are being created, and yet 808 - > you're saying it's the best time. 809 - > Why? 810 - > SPEAKER_02: Um, two reasons. 811 - > I mean, 99% of the people creating content are don't have 812 - > the understanding of what we're talking about today.
813 - > So the sheer fact that if you're gonna actually spend the time on 814 - > how to like create like meaningful stories, um that is 815 - > gonna work to your benefit and you're gonna rise above the 816 - > noise much quicker. 817 - > Number two, we live in a world where um there's 5.2 billion 818 - > people on these platforms, like there's so much audience out 819 - > there that it's crazy. 820 - > Like there's just so many people that you can reach.
821 - > And number three, it's um it's it's the fact that you can start 822 - > with 10 followers, 100 followers. 823 - > We have some clients start with zero followers, and you can 824 - > build an audience. 825 - > Like it's if you find your format in in find the best ways 826 - > to you know master that format and tell great stories, you 827 - > literally can start with zero and build a massive audience. 828 - > It's the the the opportunity is is open to everyone.
829 - > SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about that for a second too. 830 - > So uh there's a trend of having multiple profiles, multiple 831 - > avatars, you know, basically creating an echo chamber. 832 - > Uh we in on this, you know what I'm talking about? 833 - > SPEAKER_02: Are you talking about clipping or are you 834 - > talking about something else?
835 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, we can talk about both. 836 - > So um brands or influencers who hire other people to clip on 837 - > their behalf. 838 - > That's one thing. 839 - > Another thing is just simply, let's say it's Gary Vaynerchuk.
840 - > You know, Gary and I are friends from way back. 841 - > Uh Gary probably has 30 or 40 Gary channels, right, on each 842 - > platform. 843 - > So he's just uh duplicating, replicating, creating multiple 844 - > accounts. 845 - > Is this a good strategy?
846 - > Uh and talk about maybe why he would do it or why he shouldn't 847 - > do it. 848 - > SPEAKER_02: So for Gary, it makes sense because you got a 849 - > team of 40 people creating content for him. 850 - > So, like for him, sure. 851 - > I for most people, I would not recommend it until you've 852 - > actually mastered one account.
853 - > Like you get you've got to master one thing before you kind 854 - > of expand out. 855 - > Like, just by creating 10 accounts and creating content 856 - > for each of the 10 accounts does not mean you're gonna be 857 - > successful. 858 - > Again, it comes down to the content. 859 - > So if you create one account and you create great content and you 860 - > feel like you could create different types of content for 861 - > different channels, then sure, go for it.
862 - > I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. 863 - > I'm saying for most people, it's not the right strategy. 864 - > SPEAKER_01: It's hard to scale that. 865 - > Yeah.
866 - > And talk about what's happening with clippers. 867 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, basically, what you know, you 868 - > you have a lot of um top live streamers, some top YouTubers 869 - > that that pay um these guys called clippers, which are 870 - > editors that will take their long-form content and cut it 871 - > down and uh place it on separate accounts. 872 - > And based upon the performance of those clips, those clippers 873 - > get paid. 874 - > So the better those clips perform, the more they get paid.
875 - > Uh again, it's a good strategy for those people that already 876 - > have content that's connecting with an audience. 877 - > But I don't believe in it as a strategy if somebody hasn't 878 - > dialed in their own content first. 879 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get a DM from these guys literally every 880 - > day saying, I'll take your, you know, 60-minute, 90-minute uh 881 - > interview with Tony Robbins or with Gary or with Brendan and 882 - > I'll I'll clip it out. 883 - > Um is this better suited for someone who has a product or 884 - > service to sell?
885 - > SPEAKER_02: I mean, can you can you can you really need to get 886 - > an ROI out of it because it costs you money? 887 - > So you so I mean, even with social media, it's it's the same 888 - > thing is like, well, what is the end result that you're going 889 - > after? 890 - > You have to have some type of benchmark to determine whether 891 - > you're going to be successful or whether you are being 892 - > successful. 893 - > Because just because you generate a lot of views doesn't 894 - > mean or followers, it doesn't mean it it correlates to 895 - > dollars.
896 - > So it's something that once you have like a real model that's 897 - > dialed in that you know works, it's kind of putting fuel on the 898 - > fire. 899 - > SPEAKER_01: What should we be measuring? 900 - > You know, how should we be measuring success? 901 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, for for most people, it's are you generating 902 - > the return?
903 - > Are you generating revenue off of the content that you're 904 - > creating? 905 - > Now, that doesn't mean Facebook or Instagram, YouTube really 906 - > paying you. 907 - > I mean, you can make money off of like YouTube AdSense and and 908 - > other things, but it it's typically not really the best 909 - > way to to generate revenue off these platforms. 910 - > It's really what is the underlying business that you are 911 - > representing?
912 - > How do you make money today? 913 - > And can social media allow you to make more money currently 914 - > doing what you're doing? 915 - > So that could be selling products. 916 - > Um, for some pre people, like for some of our clients, it's 917 - > getting more speaking engagements, can be book deals, 918 - > you know, it it can be a number of different things.
919 - > But I always like to tie it to revenue because if you can 920 - > correlate the dollars coming in, you're more likely to stick with 921 - > creating content versus if you don't see dollars coming in, you 922 - > start questioning why am I spending time creating so much 923 - > content if I'm not making money off of it? 924 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 925 - > Yeah. 926 - > I mean, uh, the default ROI or the KPI seems to be views, 927 - > followers, engagement, watch time, et cetera, which is not a 928 - > bad, but like to your point, how does that translate into the 929 - > amount of money that we're spending on the cost of 930 - > production uh versus the the end result?
931 - > And you know, one of my more hot high profile case studies that I 932 - > use is you know, we we built Kevin O'Leary's YouTube channel 933 - > from zero to hero. 934 - > And that was how we measured success too. 935 - > Is um there were several measures of success. 936 - > One was that Kevin's most uh successful profitable activity 937 - > was public speaking.
938 - > You know, he would get uh high six figures between you know 939 - > 150k and 250k per hour. 940 - > And so we wanted to increase that from a couple of times a 941 - > year to a couple of dozen times a year. 942 - > We also wanted to use the channel uh to market and promote 943 - > his 20 or 30 Shark Tank investments. 944 - > We also wanted to do it to audition uh other formats.
945 - > Uh he was a classically trained chef, he collects uh really 946 - > expensive watches, guitars, uh he loves cameras, he holds every 947 - > lens known demand. 948 - > And so we started auditioning of the shows where he was chef 949 - > wonderful, a cook. 950 - > We ended up doing a deal with Q QVC as a result. 951 - > So yeah, I think um if I'm adding my two cents to how to 952 - > measure success, I think there's more than one way than just a 953 - > hundred percent the money.
954 - > Um, you know, sometimes it even might be finding other team 955 - > members or collaborators or and I've been Yeah, it's just being 956 - > super clear on what you what outcome you want. 957 - > SPEAKER_02: And if you're super clear on that outcome and it's 958 - > delivering that outcome, that's your benchmark for success. 959 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 960 - > I mean, I had Malcolm Gladwell on a series, and you know, the 961 - > ROI of that is just being friends with Malcolm.
962 - > Uh he and I we're both car guys. 963 - > We he talks about his restoring uh BMW. 964 - > Um I make the Porsche's. 965 - > Um anyway, uh so sometimes it's just friendship.
966 - > So there's lots of ways to measure, but uh I I think it's 967 - > important that we you are able to track you know the money you 968 - > spend your activities back to some sort of return activity. 969 - > Very smart point. 970 - > Uh well, I love this conversation. 971 - > I can talk to you for another six hours, but I respect your 972 - > time.
973 - > Um maybe let's have some closing uh thoughts. 974 - > Um how how do you make money these days? 975 - > Like what is your main source of revenue? 976 - > What's important to you?
977 - > And um we can pull that in so people can find you and find 978 - > your stuff. 979 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, the most important thing for me is 980 - > that I I and in each of my three books have the exact same 981 - > dedication. 982 - > And it's that I believe there's people all over the world that 983 - > have the about ability to transform the world in a 984 - > positive way through their message, their product or 985 - > services. 986 - > They just need those insights and that helping hand to break 987 - > through in this ultra competitive and noisy 988 - > environment that we find ourselves in.
989 - > So our entire mission is to help people break through uh on 990 - > social media through all of our research and our insights uh 991 - > that we've gleaned in in doing this for for 20 plus years. 992 - > So basically, we we empower companies um by helping them 993 - > find their ideal format and giving them the clear blueprint 994 - > on how to execute that format based upon you know the process 995 - > that we've talked through uh today. 996 - > SPEAKER_01: And what does that look like?
997 - > Is it like a consultation? 998 - > Is it hand holding? 999 - > Is it is it giving them a playbook? 1000 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we have all different types of scopes that 1001 - > we work with.
1002 - > Um we we have a certain scope where we just give people access 1003 - > to our library of formats and the insights and they can do it 1004 - > completely on their own. 1005 - > Um we have, you know, done with you programs where we can hold 1006 - > your hand all the way through it, or we can just create the 1007 - > strategy for you and and be off and running. 1008 - > So we kind of meet the client, you know, where they're at based 1009 - > upon kind of the stage of their business and the the type of 1010 - > support that they're looking for.
1011 - > SPEAKER_01: Who's the ideal person you're trying to reach or 1012 - > help with this? 1013 - > SPEAKER_02: So the you know, the simplest, the simplest thing, 1014 - > and it and it sounds stupid, but it does matter is first off, 1015 - > somebody who believes that social media is going to help 1016 - > them in their growth. 1017 - > Um, if you don't believe it, like I can't, I'm not gonna try 1018 - > and convince you that social media is, but it's it's really, 1019 - > you know, social media is top of funnel awareness.
1020 - > So this is not direct direct response marketing. 1021 - > Um, it can definitely benefit and accelerate direct response 1022 - > marketing and get you know better results from the pay that 1023 - > you're doing. 1024 - > But we are there to help people that want to build a 1025 - > relationship with an audience, they want to scale a connection 1026 - > with an audience that that ultimately when that trust is 1027 - > built, they will ultimately want to support that brand or that 1028 - > person.
1029 - > So we work with companies that are solopreneurs all the way up 1030 - > to multi-billion dollar corporations. 1031 - > Um, and we work with people that have never used social media all 1032 - > the way up to experts that have millions of followers and 1033 - > subscribers. 1034 - > I think that the common denominator is people that 1035 - > really want to excel at the highest levels of social media. 1036 - > We're not the type of people you go to as like, if you just need 1037 - > a social media to post a manager to post for you, like that's 1038 - > just that's not us.
1039 - > We're there to kind of really decode how you reach that top 1% 1040 - > of social media and breakthrough. 1041 - > SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a more like, you know, teach a man 1042 - > to fish kind of philosophy. 1043 - > Yes, you're empowering someone to take the tools and develop 1044 - > them and work into the future. 1045 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were just sitting back, you know, chopping 1046 - > it up, reminiscing about the good old days and all that.
1047 - > You know, tracking my roots, where I came from and where I'm 1048 - > going. 1049 - > But like I say, man, I say, man, always said it, it's not about 1050 - > the destination. 1051 - > It's all about the journey. 1052 - > It's all about the journey, but we got it.
1053 - > Ain't nothing changed with the weather, but the weather. 1054 - > The day we carry that aim from the river. 1055 - > Your dreams in the past ain't no way to go. 1056 - > Back street drivers got nothing but two.
1057 - > Got gun riders too fire, stay all liars. 1058 - > But I'm too tired, but I'm never giving up the swamp kinda in my 1059 - > room I don't like it or not. 1060 - > I gotta play it. 1061 - > Should I call the rhyme sometimes, but still say I was 1062 - > quitting at 40 is just a fib.
1063 - > I'm still a kid, wiping the food off of my rib. 1064 - > You ever wanted something so bad that you can taste it? 1065 - > Cried over every opportunity wasted. 1066 - > Good and bad news, which one you want first?
1067 - > Either way, you pick the best, still gon' hurt you the worst. 1068 - > I never got the basket and the fruits of the label. 1069 - > And I never got the cash from that dude from the label. 1070 - > I'm just thinking back.
1071 - > unknown: And we go way back, way back, way, way, way back.
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