What’s Working for B2B SaaS Challenger Brands?

Speaker A: You're listening to B2B Nation, a podcast from technology advice designed to help marketers navigate the modern B2B buyer's journey.

Speaker B: Here's your host, Mike Pastore.

Speaker C: Operating in a space dominated by large, well known brands poses a challenge for companies in any sector. In the SaaS software market and in CRM in particular, the challenge can seem monumental. The advantage held by many challenger brands is that they are often more agile and can pivot more quickly than the leading brands. On the other hand, challenger brands have less margin for error, so they need to make well informed decisions.

Speaker A: You know, what works for you today isn't always going to work for you tomorrow. And one of the most important things for you as a team is to have that insight, um, at your fingertips to understand what's working, but also be ready to a B test and pivot, um, when you don't see the results that you expect.

Speaker C: That's Claire Dorian, CMO of SugarCRM. Claire and her team are leading their challenger brand up against heavyweights like HubSpot and Salesforce. In this episode of the B2B Nation podcast, we're talking to Claire about what it's like to operate as a challenger brand today, which tactics and messaging are working for sugar CRM and what we think is ahead in 2024. Welcome to B2B.

Speaker B: Clair Dorian. Welcome to B2B Nation. Why don't you take a minute and tell us who you are and what you do.

Speaker A: Well firstly, thanks for having me Mike. I'm thrilled to be here. And so Clair Dorian, sometimes referred to as the DeLorean, I am CMO here at Sugar CRM and as you can probably tell, I'm not a US native, I am a US resident. Um, and um, I've been here now for gosh, almost 11 years and um, interesting story. I, this is my first time CMO role and I joined six weeks before the pandemic. So that was fun. Not advice that I would give um, to anybody else moving into their first role. And I had a complete team of rock stars here um, at Sugar and together we are, you know, we're kept awake at night as I like to say, thinking about all the different ways that you know, we can help mid market businesses that often overlooked segment of the market that are target fixated on growth and target fixated on outcomes and oftentimes very, very um, geared and challenged by um, uh, investment, um, you know, we serve that segment of the market and we are kept awake at night trying to think of ways to engage, um, you know, the marketing, sales and services teams in those businesses really with a view to helping grow better, faster, easier, smarter. Um, and um, I've been here now three and a half years so it's been a great, it's been an interesting journey. Year one, not meeting anybody, but here we are.

Speaker B: All right, that yeah, three and a half years sounds about right because I arrived at technology advice about six, five or six weeks before the pandemic. So yeah, we're on the same timeline.

Speaker A: We're on the same timeline, yeah.

Speaker B: So you don't need me to tell you that there are some very powerful and wealthy brands in the CRM space. You kind of alluded to this a minute ago that maybe they overlook certain size companies. What's the message that you want to deliver to buyers in the market for a CRM solution?

Speaker A: Well you know, firstly I feel like this is the market, the grandfather of all markets because you know, CRM has been around for two plus decades, perhaps almost three. And so it's not a new space. And I think that you know, in many ways as a, ah, as a collective, historically, you know there's not that great a perception of uh, CRM, you know, out there in the market. Um, we've all heard those horror stories, you know, over bloated feature set, ah, cost me the earth, difficult to adopt. And, and you know that's where I would start with. Anybody who is mid market sized or not looking at CRM is to say yes, this is about a technology purpose but it's purchase, but it's about more than that. It's about how do you bring and converge your people, your processes and your technology to deliver a better experience for your customers. And as you think about moving towards CRM, I think there are some really important things that buyers need to consider. Mid market businesses, um, as I said earlier, are outcomes obsessed. They are much less chasing um, you know, the couldable X because it was the, you know, the market leader. Um, you know, what's, how does the expression go Mike? Um, all those years ago, um, about buying IBM. And I think mid market businesses that we meet, that we engage with are more discerning than that. And so you know I would encourage anybody to think like I think they do, which is ensure that when you are in the market for CRM that you know what exactly it is that you're trying, what problem you're trying to solve for number one. Number two, make sure two, that as you go through that selection process that it's easy to use and easy to adopt. Mid market Businesses just don't have time for science projects, you know, and multi year implementations. And so I think as a buyer, challenge your vendors, challenge your vendors to show that they can deliver um, ROI and value early and often and get them to use their customers to validate that, you know, don't just take their word for it. I think the other important criteria as you think through um, embracing CRM is to think beyond today. Too often I see businesses get so wrapped up in trying to solve for uh, the problems that they face as sales and marketing and customer service teams today and not thinking about well, how will that problem manifest itself two years from now. You know, this isn't a purchase that happens in three months, someone that implements in two per se, although it can. And it's also a system that can become deeply ingrained in a business. So I think as a consequence it's important that you think about, well, how, how are we as a business going to evolve and what demands does that make of our CRM system as we do evolve and what matters to us as a business and what's unique about us as a business so that you can ensure that as you go through your vendor selection that there's the opportunity to enshrine what is unique about you, but also to scale what is unique about you. Um, um, as you um, move forwards. And the final thing I'll say Mike, don't overlook the importance of partnership as well. You know, you heard me say there, I think the CRM market for so long had such a poor reputation of um, uh, selling and dumping, selling the solution and walking away. And I still think that prevails to some degree. So challenge your vendors to show you how they will partner with you step by step, step beyond the sale. How are they going to support you, how are they going to make sure, you know, through community interaction, um, both within the vendor community but also in their extended customer and partner community. How are they going to ensure that you are going to be successful with that implementation? Um, I think that's also another important criteria because oftentimes again mid market businesses that we sell to, they don't have the resources in house to ensure that that um, implementation can be done successful and they're looking for expertise to do so. So partnership matters um, and is another key to success. So I hope that gives you a little bit of color.

Speaker B: The evolution part is, is interesting to think about because when I think about the state of many CRMs on the sales and marketing side, yeah, they're, they're tracking leads, they're tracking people. And as every B2B marketer knows, you're actually in real life dealing with committees and, and an organization and an opportunity at the organization level.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: But you're still kind of going one person at a time because that's how your CRM is set up.

Speaker A: And you know that I, you know, I think that's an important crate. You know this, this comes back to requirements. Right. And what matters to you as a business and as you look at your sales and marketing processes, you know, even before technology selection, I encourage anybody. Uh, in fact it doesn't even matter if it's a CRM purchase, quite frankly, in any technology purchase. Scrutinize your process today because guess what, if it ain't working and it ain't efficient and it doesn't account for more than just in your, the example that you provided, Mike, contacts, accounts, opportunities, influencers that sit around, perhaps the indirect route to market as well. Um, guess what, you're never going to find a solution that's fit for purpose. So you know, scrutinize yourself as a business, you know, uh, internally before you go make that technology purchase because you really only get in what, you know, get out what you put in. Right.

Speaker B: So we were, we were talking about our shared timeline going back to early 2020. It's been a crazy few years in person. Events were off and then they were back on and I think they're still sort of struggling to find their footing. Yeah, we've had one of the major social media platforms scare off a bunch of its advertisers. What's working when it comes to getting the message out? What are the channels and tactics that are showing results for your team?

Speaker A: So I think this is a question of two parts. Firstly, I think when it comes to the message that buyers are just so less tolerant of long winded, uh, messages littered with acronyms. And I think the CRM market has in particular been very guilty, um, of, of loading up the vernacular, ah, with acronyms. Um, and I think that what the last few years have reinforced and emphasized because I don't think this has ever not been front and center for marketing teams is that avoiding jargon, avoiding technical terms and confusing your audience, um, you know, isn't going to help you in any quest. And that the use of simple language to remain, you know, concise to the point, but very quickly get to the point, um, I think I see too many SaaS based businesses over rotating on features instead of describing how that is going to help that customer, that prospect. Do more, do Better work smarter, better serve their customers, deliver campaigns that are more impactful with that message. I think it's also incumbent on us as marketing teams to make sure that integrated into those messages is social proof. The idea that people are so much more likely to believe what you say if they see others saying the same thing within your community. I think that has only gotten stronger as in person went away. And um, you know, I think it's always been there. But I think as we took the in person away, that notion of relying on a message that the community of customers that you as a vendor have can repeat and resonate, uh, and can repeat and reinforce just got so much more powerful as a marketing tactic to draw your audience in. So then thinking about, you know, your question of, you know, what channel's most impactful, I always think this is a bit like, um, and I'm a food lover, um, I always think this is a little like the question of, you know, kind of what's my favorite food. And the reason why I say that is because what's working today, um, and the channels that are working. And I'll come on to which ones we're seeing working, um, today. And the most impactful today, you know, are obviously driven by your customer, your target, your target audience, your target industry, what it is that you're offering. But I know one thing for sure, a bit like, you know, my favorite food changes through the seasons, quite frankly, and so will your channels. And so whatever I'm about to share and say, I would just encourage your audience, Mike, to, to, to, to remember that, you know, what works for you today isn't always going to work for you tomorrow. And one of the most important things for you as a team is to have that insight, um, at your fingertips to understand what, but also be ready to ab test and pivot, um, when you don't see the results that you expect. And I think when it comes to what we are seeing working, um, you know, here at Sugar, there's a couple of things. A few years ago, uh, not long after I joined, um, it wasn't lost on me that content led marketing was something that had really blossomed as, um, as a way to get your message out there. But there's very little point in having, you know, concise, compelling content with that social proof I spoke about, if you're putting it in the right places. And so we have been spending much more time, um, understanding and listening to our customers about, well, where do they go look, where do they go search happily I'm, you know, I'm pleased to say. Which events do they now go to? Because obviously that's something that they haven't been able to do and making sure that we are front and center um, when they do go those places. You know, I often hear it called the dark funnel, you know, as that sort of um, that, that, that steps that a buyer takes before they ever hit your website I think is the best way to describe it. And we've been putting um, a lot of time and energy there for us as a, as a, as a brand. The other channel that we are starting to see um, increased success through and I think this comes down to you know, acknowledging we're a challenger brand. You know you alluded to it um, earlier on Mike. We sit in a market of mega vendors and that's not unusual for mid market businesses who are looking to grow. There are normally you know, a handful of dominant um, players um, in markets that our customers play in. And so one of our, it's much less a channel and much more a tactic. One of the things that we have done um, uh, in terms of how we approach our marketing endeavors is say well goodness, our prospects look an awful lot like us. We too are a mid market business. We too are looking to grow. We too are oftentimes challenged by many of the same things that our customers and our prospects are. So, and I think this comes down to authenticity. We've opened the kimono to show how we are using our own technology, as we like to refer to it internally. We say we drink our own champagne. M. I'm a fan of that. Uh, as a champagne lover, we drink our own champagne and we show how we run our business using our own technology. And I think um, based on the feedback that we've had and based on the engagement rates that we now see, I think that authenticity is allowing us to better connect with our target buyer. Um, third thing I'll say is in influencer marketing I guess, um, albeit I would also say marketing with and through ISVs. You know again I come back to we're a challenger brand. And so I don't have the mega M millions of some of my competitors to go put behind a uh, multi channel brand campaign that you know, straddles three years. Um, you know, has several evangelists in the space who are extolling the virtues and bringing in the audience for us. So I have to find different um, and more creative ways to get our brand out there to talk to our target target audience. And you know we've recently been on a huge recruitment Drive for ISB vendors. So people who have complimentary solution sets that work alongside our CRM that we find our buyers are looking for. And um, what we've been pivoting to as a marketing team is marketing through the ISV to reach their audience because they have a trusted relationship already. So that in theory, um, should help us accelerate ah, our relationship with that audience as well because we're being introduced as a trusted party and a partnership that that ISV has. And so we've been using that really rather successfully of late, um, to both drive demand and brand, um, you know, as a, as a tactic. And the final thing I'll say is probably statement of the obvious. Events are back. Surprise, surprise. We're being very selective about what events we do do and they are very much aligned to uh, vertical segments that we play in as opposed to going broad and horizontal. And I think that's been a real shift for us as a business. And I think for many SaaS players, um, out there in the market, that long gone are the days of showing up at a trade show that is all things to all men. And um, you know, it's all about the brand. You know, we've been very much focused on creating an experience that starts before you arrive at the event, that continues during the event and post event. And it's very much back in the marketing mix as a channel that, you know, over the last nine months we've seen some very, very um, compelling results

Speaker B: from, yeah, uh, vertically focused events, hyper local events to go travel far and blow up their week.

Speaker A: It's so important. We have got out the habit of traveling. I'm not gonna lie. I don't love it when I'm on. I'm just back from being on the road for four weeks and that was certainly two weeks too long. And so I think being mindful of those personal circumstances that are influencing the professional as we think about channels that we use is critical. You know, Nobody wants to 25 emails from a vendor in three weeks. We never did. We certainly don't anymore. You know, people are switching off these devices and are creating many more boundaries than they ever have. And I think it's incumbent on us to respect that.

Speaker B: Right? I mean you tell people you can't travel for as long as we did and they're gonna, it's not just developing new habits. It's, you know, people, their lifestyle changed, they, they liked having more time with their family, they liked being able to exercise and do all these things. Same reason you can't get them to go back to the office.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Same reason you can't get them to go to the big trade show.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Uh, we're in the fourth quarter of 2023. There were a few places saying that 2023 was gonna trim the SaaS market considerably. I don't think it's been quite that dire. Mhm. There have been predictions of a recession that have become like the weather forecast. It's coming. It's not coming, it's coming whenever. Uh, what gets you excited about 2024? What are you worried about in 2024?

Speaker A: Well, as you can probably tell, I'm a fairly excitable person, so it doesn't take much. But there are probably three interrelated things that get me excited. If I can start with a positive, because I am a positive person. We've all seen the rise of the digital buyer, right? The world is interconnected, um, as many of the transactions and interactions happen, um, blind to vendors like us out there in the dark funnel. And increasingly buyers are looking to self serve more. And you know, to your earlier point, this is where the sort of personal experience is really pervading the expectations that buyers have in their professional experience. And so what gets me excited is, um, you know, thinking about all the different ways that we can create and foster a more immersive experience for our buyers online before they ever hit a salesperson. But importantly, that once they do hit that salesperson, that the context of what has gone on is at their fingertips. Um, and we're lucky because we use sugar. We use sugar. And that's sort of fundamental to the capabilities that, you know, that we have. So what gets me excited is thinking about, well, what does, what does that immersive experience look like for us? How do we serve up? I was reading, um, I think it was Trust Radius did a survey a couple of months ago, um, about, you know, what influences buyer decisions and accessibility to product much earlier on in that buying cycle. Really tipped up in the year over year survey. I think it was voted, uh, in the top three of key criteria that they want to touch. You know, buyers want to touch, they want to feel, they want to engage and interact with what it is that they're purchasing. So that keeps me awake at night. How can we deliver that kind of experience that is core to our brand? Um, that is appropriate for the, for the buyer that we have, frankly, with the, with the investments that we have at our fingertips and coupled with that, how do we embrace, um, AI I think this is a question that everybody is either wrestling with and. Or experimenting with. Right. It's like the hot topic. Um, and, um, yes, we're in the very early days of, you know, generative AI and the possibilities that that brings. And, you know, internally we are, um, you know, leveraging some technology, both our own technology, um, but also, um, additional tools out there. Because I think that the possibilities, um, with AI are endless to help you predict, you know, the right kind of leads to work on, to help you understand the right kind of opportunities that a seller is intending, you know, should be focused on closing. But I equally think that one of the things that gets me really excited about this new wave of tech tech is how do you balance that with people? And I think what I see right now is an awful lot of excitement for the tech and the AI and, um, not a lot of consideration for the people that, um, sit around it. And I think about. I talk to the team a lot about AI as a wingman, co pilot, if you will. Ah, it's there to help, it's there to support. And it's through that lens that as we think about our marketing efforts that we need to think about how we embrace AI into what it is that we do. Human content still matters. It's not going away. In fact, I would argue it just got even more important. You know, AI can get you part of the way there, but it does have its limitations. Yay, humans who can write, who can take suggestions, uh, from AI and use that as a springboard to overlay the personality, the core values, what it is that makes your brand different, and ensure that the content that you produce reflects that. And I think what we're seeing right now is we definitely have not got that balance right. But what excites me is the experimentation that's coming, and it's already underway, um, in sort of how do you. How do you create a connected digital experience to human experience that has an AI wingman at its core, but that still acknowledges that people matter and, um, can make a difference to how you engage and interact. That's what gets me excited when I think about the world of marketing.

Speaker B: We've told people, we've told marketers, you're working on your Personas, you're working on your icp. Go back and look at all your wins and see what they had in common. Great idea. But in practice, maybe a little tedious. Not with AI.

Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, it would be remiss of me not to talk about, you know, our own capabilities for AI here because, you know, that sort of lead prediction Score. So you work on the right opportunities. That's embedded into our CRM. The, um, likelihood to convert to opportunity. That's embedded into. These are things that used to be busy work. Guesswork at, uh, best, um, you know, from marketeers around. Well, what should we be passing to sales? What? Consider, um, a qualified, A, uh, qualified opportunity that we want to put our expensive reps, um, on. And um, you know, a lot of that busy work is going away with AI, which is super, super exciting. But I think, you know, that the challenge, both the opportunity and I think the challenge that exists is how do you balance the two. Right. Um, how do you balance the two? And I do. It would also be remiss to me to say I, I also equally worry about, um, finding, hiring and growing the right talent, Mike, because you can have all the best, you know, ideas in the world as a marketing team. If you don't have the right rock stars, you know, to really bring that to life and um, as, ah, part of your, as part of your team, then you're gonna struggle. And so the other part of your question was, what gets you excited but also equally what gets you concerned? And you know, I get. I am kept awake at night. And um, thankfully we are in recruitment mode. We are in growth mode. I know not all B2B SaaS businesses are in that fortunate position, but I worry about finding, hiring, growing the right kind of talent constantly because it's a big responsibility to bring somebody into a team, um, to acknowledge and grow their skills, to play to their strengths, but challenge them in the right ways. And so that, that also keeps me awake at night when the, when the market is in such flux. Um, you know, we've got many disenfranchised and disillusioned because there has been some layoffs, you know, and so that, that keeps me awake at night. Um, and you know what? I'd be lying if I didn't say that being in a market of mega vendors doesn't make me worried. You know, bring it on is what I always say. I love the DeLorean. Loves a challenge. Um, but that's hard, you know, operating in a market where there are other vendors who are, uh, infinitely, um, uh, better equipped, both budget and people wise to do things that you can only dream of. And, you know, my response to that is always turn that worry into opportunity. Just get crafty, get creative, and figure out an alternative that grabs attention.

Speaker B: All right, the question we ask just about Everybody here on B2B Nation, what is your favorite tool in our rules Here you can't say Sugar CRM or something you're marketing. And you can't say your phone unless you cite a specific app, because none of us can do anything without our phone today. So what is the thing that you can't live or work without?

Speaker A: Claire, Whenever I'm asked, what's my favorite food, what's your favorite band? What can you not live without? I never have a singular answer. Probably says a lot about me as a person. But the app that I actually, if you were to go into my phone and, um, look at the app that I spend most time in, Spotify. I'm a music lover. I. I find that I start my day, I end my day with music. I, um, choose music over tv, books. Um, I find it so rewarding. And I think some of that comes down to Mike. I love. I love communication. I love words. And, um, I think music oftentimes tells stories, and I think that's what appeals to me. Um, aside from which, I live with a husband who watches sport morning, noon and night. And, um, that's probably another reason why I'm driven to, uh, to using Spotify, um, all the time. But, you know, um, Spotify is probably the app that I use most, um, swiftly followed by anything that allows me to purchase clothes at the point, uh, at the click of a button. Um, but probably the less said about that better. And, uh, particularly if my husband is watching this or listening.

Speaker B: You know, I've. I've probably done more than 100 episodes of B2B Nation at this point, and no one ever used music until the previous episode. And now you, Mike Donahue from CMW Lab. Yeah, uh, Apple. Apple Music. And you. There you go.

Speaker A: You know, we all have our different avenues, um, to escape mine's music. Um, it's not the only one, but it's certainly the one that I reach for, uh, instinctively. So, yeah. And if it's live music, by the way, more's the good.

Speaker B: Uh. All right, Clara Dorian from SugarCRM, thanks for joining us on B2B Nation.

Speaker A: And thank you so much for having me, Mike.

Speaker C: Thanks again to Claire Dorian of Sugar CRM for joining us on this episode of the B2B Nation podcast. If you found this episode insightful or helpful, subscribe to B2B Nation on Apple, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks also to Jacob Rainey of the technology advice team Mnemonics in the Guild wrote our theme song. Thanks for listening to B2B Nation.