214: Managing and Hiring 100% Remote Teams w/ Mark Bliss

Speaker A: Hey everyone. Welcome to B2B Made Simple. I'm Sam Moss, the CEO and co founder of One Click Agency. On this show I interview marketing experts from fast growing B2B SaaS companies. We feature podcast episodes I'm a guest on and sometimes we throw in a consulting call I've done with another company. Our goal with this show is to equip you in and give you the tools you need to be the best marketer you can be. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of B2B made simple. Joining me on the reunion tour, I have Mark Bliss who is coming back for round two. Mark, welcome to the show, man.

Speaker B: It's really good to be back. Uh, round two, round two. We're going to be uh, a little more focused, uh, on this one, right? We're not going to digress as much as we did in round one.

Speaker A: Wife's computer next to me. All good. There we go.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're gonna have to edit that out.

Speaker A: Ah, no, we'll leave it. People like to know we're real, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. This is live, you know, our art. And we did not shut off our phones before this. So we are just playing roulette.

Speaker A: That's right. You know what it is, is I always check to make sure all my notifications are off, but my wife's laptop is literally sitting next to my desk and it's linked to her phone and of course she has ever volume all the way up 24 7. So here we are. But you know, it happens, it happens.

Speaker B: You know, if you don't have your volume up, I mean, I don't think you can listen to music so.

Speaker A: That's right. That's very true.

Speaker B: There is that. Yeah, I was having a. Ah, I mean, I guess we're going to digress because we were having a, ah, long discussion of what the song for the summer is this year. And I believe that stranger things has made it, uh, uh, running up that hill. I think you've got a 40 year old song as the song of the summer this year.

Speaker A: I think he very, very well may be right about that. Um, you know, so here's my opening question to you is if you had to choose between watching a movie or sitting down and watching a TV show, what would you choose?

Speaker B: Have to be a TV show. Um, a TV show is basically like a six to ten hour movie, right? So I've had a lot of time recently, uh, you know, being sick with COVID Uh, so, um, it's one of those things where if I watch a movie, I gotta queue up another movie, and then I have that decision making fatigue of trying to find what the next movie is. Uh, unless it's a Marvel movie, then I've got like 40 additional ones in the queue.

Speaker A: Plenty to choose from.

Speaker B: Exactly. But if it's any other movie, then it's like, okay, well, I have to make a decision now. Uh, you know, do I stay in the same genre? I find another one. If I choose a TV show, I can just watch every next episode and lose, you know, eight hours of my life and in an instant. Uh, so I'd probably go with TV show on, uh, when I have time. A, uh, movie. If I don't have time, I love it.

Speaker A: So if you're listening to this, Mark obviously is back for round two. He was on episode 126, so quite a while ago. Almost 100 episodes by the time this drops, which is pretty wild. So awesome to have you back. Um, I believe last time we talked about wasn't it sales versus marketing or getting rid of the silos. Right. So if someone wants to go listen to that, definitely check it out. Um, but today we have a new topic which is managing and hiring a 100% remote team. Obviously this is where we're at in 2022. Um, I'm excited to dive into this and my opening question for you is, you know, what are the differences between simply a remote company and a remote first? Before talking to you, I didn't even know there was a difference. So I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are on that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, a lot of companies have always had positions that had worked remote, and then when the pandemic happened, every position was suddenly remote. Uh, but a lot of those companies were effectively forced to have remote positions. Uh, either the leadership didn't like it or they weren't really set up for it. And so they never created the process, the tech stack, and really just the strategy around it because they always assumed that they'd come back. And those are all the announcements you see. Hybrid work environments to me, for the most part, when you're talking about work that can be done remotely. Yeah. So they're having to come back into the office for two days, or three members of the same team are working in the office, whereas three are from home. To me, that's just an indecisive company. They don't want to create a strategy. Uh, and so a remote first company, when you're remote first and I'm at my second remote first company in A row now. And when it's remote first, you're building the strategy around having your organization remote. You know, even if you have an office, it's more of an afterthought. You know, you're building, you know, a meeting, for example, in a split, you know, kind of half remote or hybrid, uh, environment. You might have folks that are in the office in a meeting and then you have staff on a zoom in the meeting.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Which one are you creating the strategy for? Which are you prioritizing? What, uh, what gets the emphasis? Because if, if you've ever been on a meeting with a bunch of people in a meeting room and you're sitting on a zoom, it's very difficult to interject.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's always a delay. There's all kinds of stuff.

Speaker B: Exactly. And you're not a part of that meeting. And so, you know, a remote first company is designing and saying, our meetings are going to be virtual. How do we best enable our staff to take advantage of those? Uh, you're also hiring very different people. Uh, you're creating a very different tech stack. Your collaboration process is very different. But it's really just, you know, when you say remote first, it's. Did they put that stake in the ground and say, we are a remote first company. We are hiring people that want to work 100% remote and we are structuring and enabling them in that way in that strategy. Uh, and so there are remote companies that don't have that, that is not their focus. Uh, you probably won't see that as a consistent topic on their leadership meetings. Uh, and it probably won't come up in a board meeting. And then you have your hybrid companies, uh, and then you have your companies that were remote, but now we get to see that they really never wanted to be. And Sebastian.

Speaker A: Yeah. In the office. Yeah, I get it. Um, what do you think for morale? Because I've seen some companies do remote first and absolutely kill it. Right. They have teams that are flourishing. They seem like they're in the office when it comes to camaraderie. Um, what do you think? Like, what are some ways that you help your team feel like a team when they're behind the screen the entire time?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, part of that is how you structure your meetings and who you hire. But uh, you know, drilling down into team off sites is I think probably the best place to start because everybody's like, it's an in thing now. Uh, you know, I can't open LinkedIn without seeing somebody. I know that they Just did this off site. And I think it's about getting that right first and foremost. Because if you only get a few chances a year to see your team in person, uh, and maybe only one chance a year depending on the size of your company and the budget that you've put in place for this, you need to make sure you do it right. So you know, that's probably the first place to start is, is the right way to do team off sites.

Speaker A: What would you say is the right way to do it?

Speaker B: Well first I think you have to take your team somewhere cool, ideally somewhere that the majority of them haven't been to. Whether you do a poll, whether you just pick a uh, location that the team uh, either is expressing interest in or that it's a brand new place for them to travel to, it really helps because you're now reducing a lot of the awkwardness that you would have when you're meeting people sometimes for the first time in person. Uh, because now everybody's in a new place for the first time. Uh, it's an immediate shared experience that everybody has and the excitement about going to that place will help overcome any nerves or anxiety that's in place for, you know, meeting people for the first time.

Speaker A: That's a good way to look at it. Yeah.

Speaker B: A lot of people, if they still have an office and many companies don't now they've got like a, ah, mailing address basically. But if you still have an office, people are doing the off site and they're bringing people into the office.

Speaker A: Mhm. That's not what you're talking about here.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no. That is not an off site. That is a zoom meeting in person. Don't do that. Also don't try to maximize your time by shutting everybody up in a conference room all day, only letting them out to eat. Uh, that's not the right way. Uh, you do need to have those face to face meetings. It's great for collaboration, especially if you're doing any type of strategic planning. But limit that to only like four hours a day. Spend the rest of your time doing activities together and building relationships and connection. Uh, and don't do the standard activities either. I mean I love an escape room or bowling as much as like the next person, but do some fun things that are very specific to where you went. My uh, team and I, we just did uh, an off site in nola. Uh, and the highlight of the trip for most of the team was a ghost and voodoo tour that we after Dark. That was a really fun Thing, it was unique. It was very, uh, specific to New Orleans. And we also did this really super weird, uh, photo shoot, uh, in the French Quarter, where, you know, we hired this photographer giving us a tour around the French Quarter and then taking what I would call kind of like hilarious prom shots. Um, you know, I'm in a photo. I swear it looks like an old, uh, uh, 90s boy band album cover. Uh, absolutely. But it's that. It's that type of thing. Like, it's. It's unique. It's about the city. It's something we all have a shared experience and we can laugh about. Uh, and yes, we did some great strategic planning. Absolutely. But we didn't focus on that. And I think that's where, if you do a team offsite. Right. Ensuring that you have those experiences, those shared experiences is critical. I would also say the caveat and probably the thing I'm still learning too. You also don't want to overbook the schedule. That's, uh, a good point. I think that the balance of giving people some solo time away to recharge is important as well. And I haven't found the right number yet. I'm still experimenting with that myself. Um, but making sure that people can come back and relax and recharge. Uh, it's a lot meeting people in person and spending that time together where if you don't give people the chance to break away and relax and recharge, I think you're setting yourself up for burnout on days two or three where it's too much and you're on too long. Uh, I mean, any. Anybody that's had the back to back to back to back to back zoom days will understand that feeling because, like, you're on and you're on and you're on and you're on, and you get to the end of the night and you're like, where's my beer? Where's my beer? I'm just. I'm not moving from this couch. Like, you know, you have that true fatigue in place. Amplify that by a hundred times with a team that's in person for maybe the first time for a good portion of the staff.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, you know, with everybody working remote, one of the toughest things to do is really activating the talent and finding the right talent. Um, what are some ways that you approach that being 100% remote? First, as a company?

Speaker B: Well, I think, uh, you gotta hire great people, uh, first and foremost. Now, the benefit to that is you're hiring remotely so you can Hire them from anywhere. You're not tied to a geographic radius and you don't have to pay relocation fees. Just hire really great people. And when you have really great people, you can set very clear goals. So that way everybody's focused on the results that you want, not when or where or how they get things done. And that's a big difference. And it's a big shift because, you know, when you're working in an office, I mean, oh, I remember back in the day when I would work in an office, uh, I'd be able to walk past my team, I'd be able to check in, I'd see what they're working on, we could make adjustments in real time. All of that, uh, you don't get that working remotely, or at least you probably shouldn't. You need to hire people that are going to come to you when they have questions, but you need them to just get it done on their own terms. You know, I don't care if people are working at, you know, 7 o' clock in the morning or, you know, and then they leave at 3 or, you know, they want to work late and so the next day they come in early, it really shouldn't matter because uh, when you're working remotely, it's really just about getting that job done. And so you gotta be able to do that. And I think hiring great people is where it starts because you need people that have that mindset where they're going to get shit done on their own terms and they're going to be comfortable enough to be able to come to you. The second that they stall out, uh, it's the five minute rule. If you spend five minutes spinning your wheels on something that you know another member of your team knows how to do, immediately stop and go to them right away. Uh, because otherwise you're just wasting a bunch of time. And that comfort level to be able to do that, whether it's a peer, whether it's somebody, uh, in another function, whether it's your boss, whether it's your boss's boss's boss. That comfort level, being able to do that, uh, that is the critical thing in hiring. And so I always uh, uh, jump in hiring, trying to identify that in the interview process, uh, is that something that they are either A already good at or B, something that they'd be really capable of in this type of environment.

Speaker A: So in the interview process, do you have specific questions that you ask that maybe you didn't realize you should be asking until now? You're a remote team or maybe these have been your secret sauce for years. Uh, can you give us, like, a look at what that interview, interview process and those questions look like?

Speaker B: The number one most important question that I ask on every single interview. Uh, for a remote position, I always ask them to tell me about a couple of awesome people that they worked with, with the caveat that it cannot be anyone in leadership and it cannot be anyone in their team. So that enables me to know how they work, cross functionally, how they build relationships. Uh, that'll tell me a lot. I also do a lightning round where I'll ask, like, I don't know, five to ten rapid fire questions, so that way I can understand their confidence. Even something as simple as asking what their favorite podcast to listen to is. The decisiveness of the answer tells me their level of confidence instead of hemming

Speaker A: and hawing back and forth for two minutes. That's smart, man. That's a great, great thing to, Great way to frame it up. And honestly, when you said, like, the pick, uh, a couple people that are rock stars that, you know, you've worked with, I'm like, thinking back to a couple early jobs I had and I'm just like, man, that like, gets me thinking, like, you know what? I would have been not, like, stumped on the question, but it really does make you think, like, outside the box. Who are some people that were really good at what they did that weren't exactly on your team? So genius questions on your behalf.

Speaker B: Well, and even better, you write those names down and when you hire them, you wait like two months and you're like, hey, on the interview you told me these people were amazing. Should we set up interviews with them, bring them aboard?

Speaker A: Smart.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Because, uh, referrals are such a lifeblood in a remote first company. Because everybody already knows the culture, they understand what it takes to work there. Uh, the pros and cons of doing this remotely, the pros and cons of your company culture, and they will understand and know who are the best fits. And so, you know, many, many of the best hires, uh, you know, at DNS Filter, come from referrals and recommendations, uh, from our existing team for that reason. And since you've already asked the question, all you gotta do is make sure to write it down. I typically will do like a, uh, calendar event, uh, particularly if it's somebody that fits into a role that I know that I will eventually be hiring or at least the company will cross functionally. We'll set, we'll set that up. And it's a nice, it's a nice way to expand the team with folks that you, uh, have an initial foot in the door with. And any referral, any referral or recommendation, uh, I will always take an interview with. Uh, so they will always fast track to that interview. Uh, just, just to ensure, uh, that, you know, we keep that, uh, keep that flowing. Because the worst thing that can happen is people, people refer or recommend somebody that they know and love and then it just gets buried and nobody, not even, not even your recruiter reaches out to them. Like that's the worst possible thing. People will just stop recommending.

Speaker A: Yeah. So when it comes to, again, this hiring process, you may have touched on this a little bit previously, but what are some skills that you're looking for specifically? I mean, we're obviously marketers here. You want marketing skills, but is there anything else on top of that, you

Speaker B: know, uh, ownership, first and foremost, um, I need everyone, regardless of their level in the organization, to uh, make decisions and live with the consequences. That's even more important when you're fully remote. Um, so that's their communication, like we talked about, uh, and creativity. You know, that ability to problem solve and think out of the box, uh, is really important. But those three things tie together because if you, uh, if you have a great idea, it doesn't mean anything if you don't communicate it. Uh, and taking ownership of that great idea and ensuring that it happens and it doesn't just get thrown out and lost in the ether is also critical. And so I need those three things to be really high, really, uh, highly rated skills for the candidates. So that way, uh, I can trust that when they come in, they're going to have those great ideas, they're going to bring in all the people that they need to, they're going to communicate any challenges they come across and they're going to own it and work through it. Uh, because if you missing any one of those pieces, uh, in a remote marketing org, damn near impossible, damn near impossible to scale.

Speaker A: So I had a CMO on this podcast quite a while ago and she's the CMO of a pretty large organization. She had just been brought on for the role and she said, you know, when building a team, um, if, if two thirds of the hires work out, you're doing really well. Do you think that that is, you know, true in what you found? Or is it like, is that kind of like a harsh number? What are some, what is, what's been your experience?

Speaker B: You know, I think it depends on your org. You Know, if you, if you are, uh, if you're hiring only six people and to wash out, I don't think that that's really good for your organization.

Speaker A: That's true. Very.

Speaker B: So I, I think it's. It depends on the roles. It depends on the scale. I mean, some roles you just have to get. Right. Um, now I am a firm believer. I just said it. Make a decision and live with the consequences. I operate by that as well. I think any company that has a dozen steps in the interview process, it's ridiculous. Uh, there shouldn't be any more than four at most. Three is a nice, pretty standard. And then if you need to do some sort of a project or something as a fourth step. But I think this paralysis, uh, on strategy that people go through, I think that's the biggest killer and time suck out there, because you're just spinning your wheels. You're not making a decision. And what does that signal to the person coming in? If I'm looking for ownership, communication, and creativity, they damn well better see those three things in my interview process from me. And so you got it. You got to embody that. You have to be able to communicate with them all the positives and negatives of the role. Um, I, um, want to share with them creative ideas and things that the team has moved forward on. And I want to show them that I take ownership because I will make a decision. And we're not going to prolong this thing out. Uh, a couple of my hires, we hired in a, uh, week, week and a half of total time from application to hiring. And I'm not saying everybody should make a decision that fast, but I also think if they check every box and when you know, you know, and there's no benefit to sitting and waiting at all. Uh, all you're just showing is that you're an indecisive organization when right in

Speaker A: your interview you talk about being decisive. And that's one of the things you're looking for. So you guys seem to live it, which is great.

Speaker B: Well, if you don't, then you're going to get the wrong people, because you're only going to get people who talk about it. You're not going to get people who do it. You know, it's a. It's a balance. An interview process is like, uh, it's like a really intricate tango, you know, and both have to be on the same page for you to know that it's going to work out. Mm. And part of that is living up to all the things that you're asking of them and wanting that candidate to be, you gotta embody that yourself. Otherwise you're, you're, you're kind of screwed. Which is probably what the uh, the issue is with uh, with our good friend Elon Musk trying to bring everybody back to the office. And I, I don't think he ever really lived it or embodied it. I think it was just uh, this natural uh, progression of the world shift and he didn't want to be outside of that. Uh, and so bringing everybody back really fits more into a micromanagement, top down approach and style that it seems like he embodies. I also think he just wanted to reduce his workforce because immediately thereafter he announced hiring freezes and layoffs. Uh, and so I think it was just hey everybody that wants to work remote fully, just leave please. I don't have to start have higher numbers of layoffs. But, but yeah, I think for, I think it's very apparent in an interview process what the org embodies. And even if they're asking questions that are sharing like a different perspective or, or seemingly different, those are the times where you're going to join a company and it's going to not be anything like what you expected. And we've all been there, right? Everybody's been there. They thought they had the right company in the interview process and then you come in and everything they talked about wasn't real. Uh, and conversely hiring. We've all hired candidates that talked a big game and they didn't quite live up to that. They didn't embody those traits that you thought that you had in uh, the interview process. So that's why I think it's a delicate tango. I think if both are authentic, I think you're going to absolutely uh, succeed. We uh, have almost uh, I believe a 95% offer acceptance rate at DNS Filter. And a lot of that comes in into the fact that you know we, we appreciate the dance.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you know we've, we've set processes in place. Like we have a three interview process. Like that is a part of our process and the title, uh, not um, 10, not 12, not 3, not 10, not 12, 3. Exactly. So we have, we've got these uh, guardrails that are set up and our people uh, team does an incredible job of training and empowering managers. Uh, we have frequent uh, training sessions on what we're looking for and how we detail out some of these traits and we ensure that nobody's really going rogue. Because yes there are, there are differences with Departments marketing is a very different organization. They're much more hyper creative than, you know, some other, uh, you know, areas, uh, of an organization, particularly those that are product, uh, based like us. In cybersecurity you get a lot of varied personalities, but the core traits to be able to work in a remote first environment are the same no matter what department that you're in. And so making sure that you align there also helps as well because again, I want referrals and referrals are going to come across the organization. So you need to ensure across the board that you're hiring with that same strategy in mind. Trying to find people who take ownership, people who do communicate and people who are creative. Yeah, varying degrees.

Speaker A: And it sounds like you guys are absolutely killing it. You're living what you're preaching and uh, it seems like you're reaping the harvest from it for sure.

Speaker B: I think we're doing a great job of progressively learning as we go, uh, because there's no, I mean there's a bunch of books on this now. Uh, but they're all brand new. It's not like I can go to this proven, uh, process, you know, none of us can. That are remote first. It's a fairly new phenomenon. Uh, some will say it's a fad. And I very much, I don't think so. I disagree with those people.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think those people are going to wake up in two years and find that they can't find good talent. Uh, absolutely. Uh, but yeah, I think we're all making it up as we go. And anybody that's really curious is listening to podcasts like this, trying to glean whatever they can from the people who might have been doing it a few years longer than them. But it's all new and none of us are experts on this yet. Uh, we are, I would say, advocates. You know, it's something that we're pushing towards, we're trying to understand. But just like, uh, you know, my, my, my last, uh, team offside, I mean, I did not give enough refresh time. You know, that is a, that is a lesson learned that I hope the entire audience listening to this podcast will uh, take and put into practice before it's an issue for them. But it's something that I personally felt by the time I got to day three, I was exhausted and worn out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I mean I know my team was as well. So it's things like that we're just, we're all learning as we go. It's brand new, it's something that, uh, is not proven, it's not fully tested. I like the direction it's going, I like the early signs. Everything seems incredibly positive. I've been able to hire people that I never would have been able to hire before. Incredibly talented folks. Uh, and then there's an element of diversity of experiences and it's just phenomenal to be able to have that. You know, if I can have somebody from New York, somebody from Texas, somebody, uh, from the Midwest and somebody from California all on the same meeting. There are intangible benefits to that collaboration that you just simply can't get. If you were hiring all around, uh, you know, one singular area, like our main office, which is basically like a mailing address at a WeWork, uh, is in the Washington D.C. area. So you wouldn't get the majority of our talented workforce if we were just hiring around that and then maybe offering relocation money when we were bringing people aboard, you just wouldn't have it. And so some, some of that diversity of thought, experience, location, I mean, it's just incredible to see put into action. And a lot of it's just intangible. But yeah, that's why I think it's here to stay. Anybody that's lived it will never go back. And that is the problem with all these companies trying to shift to the hybrid environment. Uh, people that loved working remotely are now.

Speaker A: They still love it.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. They still love it and they want to find the places that are doing it better. Mhm. They don't want to go back to the office. They want to find the places that have learned and are continuing to try new things and are adopting the, the right technology and the right process and strategy to ensure that they're bringing, not just bringing the right people aboard, but they're empowering them. You know, like we haven't even talked about junior hires, you know, the folks in their first like two years of their career. Because they're always the ones that get thrown under the bus when you talk about, you know, 100% remote work. Because it's always, well, you know, then you can't bring on junior hires. You certainly can never bring on interns or anything because you know, they're never going to be able to learn enough. And that just drives me insane.

Speaker A: That's just not true.

Speaker B: No, no. And I think you're just devaluing people in a way that's unfair to their professional growth and ability. First, if you don't believe somebody that could own their job and work remotely without a ton of micromanagement or interaction. Just don't hire them. Please, like do everybody a favor and don't hire them. Uh, but if you, if you bring those people on board, you don't have to like micromanage every aspect of their lives in person staring down at them with, with their cubicle sitting outside of your office. What you do need to do though is make sure that those people have a comfort level to share their opinions. That is the caveat that I will say with junior hires. Uh, they're a lot less comfortable. You know, they haven't, they haven't yet been through this the time and time again. As you know, my newly developing gray hairs would uh, start to indicate, um, they just haven't done it. Uh, and so there's a level of I think fear and discomfort about sharing ideas or sharing dissent. Especially uh, with anybody up in the org chart. And so if you can get early one on one interactions with them at all levels of the organization, they should not just be talking to their direct manager, they should be Talking to directors, VPs, SVP is a member of the C suite. They should get those face to face interactions. If uh, you can do it in person, great. Uh, I've had, I've had multiple employees, uh, where their first day was actually in person, whether it was at a conference or at a uh, team off site. Uh, and you know there are pros and cons to that. Absolutely. Uh, but it's such a huge benefit that their first week they get to spend time with management and executives in a way that's more flexible and comfortable, uh, you know, going out and doing sightseeing as opposed to being on a zoom call presenting a report that they made. Yeah, very, very different process. And so I think if in the first 90 days you get those junior hires or really any hire, uh, because I think this is true regardless of your tenure and your resume. Uh, I think just get as many one on one interactions with every level as you possibly can. Because that comfort level is huge when it's about remote work because somebody will sit on something or they'll spend an hour trying to figure out how to write an email about something that they disagree on. And that is the biggest time suck in the world. Yeah, absolutely. I can't tell you enough how much it frustrates me. Uh, I think the problem is we've got so many organizations that don't. They will say that they want dissent, but they do nothing to create uh, the relationships and eliminate the fear around dissent. And so then that's why you have people spending that much time, or they never say anything, or they run it to their manager, who then runs it to their manager, who then runs it to their manager. And now you've just wasted like four people's time when all you needed to do was send a direct message or ask uh, for a 10 minute phone call of the person who makes the decision. Like, I love being told that my ideas are stupid. Absolutely. Uh, it's uh, the only way that we're going to be able to move forward. Because if you're doing this top down approach like our friend Elon does, um, eventually you just get uh, a bunch of people saying yes and nodding their heads and the only ideas that are yours. I kind of like the uh, uh, Abraham Lincoln's cabinet approach where he, he hired the cabinet of rivals. They were all people who publicly disagreed with him throughout, uh, his entire campaign. Three, uh, or four of them I think specifically did not vote for him. And um, I think that's, that is the, that is the right way, that is the right approach. Because you get an instant gut check. It doesn't mean that you don't go with your decision, but it does mean that you've got an entire group of people who are comfortably comfortable and telling you your idea is stupid and allowing you to reevaluate and reassess, uh, before anything goes out. Uh, you know, I had a conversation this week with uh, with a member of my team. And it's like there's a difference between a directive and an idea. When it's a directive, that's something we have to do. Uh, the method to which we do it, uh, that's a little bit open for debate unless that's a part of the directive. But occasionally you get something, whether it's from the board, whether it's from the C suite, whether it' from your manager. That just has to be done. Those are directives. Do those. Find a way to put your own flair and creativity in it if you can. But those are directives. Uh, 90% of the time it's not a directive. 90% of the time in marketing, it's an idea.

Speaker A: It's the creativity side of things that are coming out as marketers. Right. It's what sets us apart, if you ask me.

Speaker B: Exactly. And so when you, when you throw out that idea, the meeting a, you, you want to throw out ideas and at all levels, uh, you need to embody that. Again, I said same exact thing. Whatever you want out of your team, you need to embody yourself. But I think you also, you also need to ensure that you're embodying, uh, the desire for people to tell you your idea is stupid.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. And that's where the back and forth, the healthy communication, the healthy disagreement. I think that, you know, we can all be people pleasers pretty easily and be yes people and say, you know what, that's a great idea and strike each other's ego. But at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with healthy structured conflict. And it seems like that's exactly what you guys embody.

Speaker B: Yeah, you have to do that and I think you have to make sure that uh, there's a relationship there and a comfort level. Ah. And that's why those one on one interactions are important. Uh, it's part of the reason why every time we do a conference, uh, which conferences always have to be first and foremost about roi, like you have to bring in business from them, otherwise what the hell is your marketing department doing? Um, but when you're a remote first company, you have a secondary element and that's about getting the team to spend time together, being able to craft those interactions. And so every time we do a, uh, conference we check like a two to three hour radius around wherever that conference is and invite anybody from across the organization to uh, come to whatever the post show dinner that we're going to do is uh, especially true when we've got our executives at the conferences, uh, or if their manager is there in person, we want to make sure they'll get there. Sometimes we even spend money on flight, uh, to be able to get them there and it goes.

Speaker A: Camaraderie you're talking about, right?

Speaker B: Exactly. There's a shift that happens in your head when you have, you know, you have a dinner across from your CEO and you're just, you know, it's not even small talk, it's real talk, understanding, you know, these, you know, everybody as a person, as a human being. And so then when you, when you have that disagreement or you want to share something, uh, a new idea, it's not as scary anymore. And this specifically goes even to junior hires. Like I will, I will ensure that we bring some of my less experienced marketing staff to trade shows for some of that reason, um, it's about building those relationships. And I would also say having anyone in a marketing team working the booth will get you infinite props and connection with the sales team.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you know, 100 episodes ago we talked about that alignment.

Speaker A: So here's, here's, even better alignment right here.

Speaker B: Here's One tidbit there. Um, if you're asking anybody to do something that you wouldn't do yourself, that's a problem. And I think that goes when marketers assign salespeople to work boots at the conference, you need to do that as well. And you don't have to be awesome, uh, like, uh, so I'm, uh, what, 100 and some odd days in at DNS Filter. I'm certainly not, you know, uh, all powerful, all knowing, all knowledgeable there. Uh, and so I was working the booth, you know, I spent several hours working at booth at a, at a conference, uh, a couple weeks ago. And you know, I asked, I asked our product and, uh, SE teams like, you know, grade me, and everybody's like, oh, well, it was like, I give you like a 70%. And, and to me, uh, first of all, I will take a 70%. Absolutely. But I think being open to have that conversation, I got to learn what I was doing wrong. And then also the same thing for the team that I had there, everybody in marketing that I brought to the conference, all of us worked the booth. And it's just a great opportunity to learn what prospects are saying directly and equally. It gives you that FaceTime, and not just with the executives, but you're also getting that with sales, with product, with anybody that's at the, at that conference. And that is super valuable. You know, I can't even put like there's no tangible value I can put directly on it. Uh, but I think at some point, as we keep doing this remote, first thing, we'll find a KPI, we'll find some tangible way to measure the ROI of that. But for right now, when we don't have that, the gut feeling and the, uh, the level of confidence boost and collaboration that you have after events like that, uh, it might cost you an additional $10,000 and however you budget.

Speaker A: Come on. Right, yeah.

Speaker B: Maybe you have part of your budget dedicated specifically to your demand gen and the ROI that you're going to get specifically from the show. And you have a separate budget that's more of like a people team or departmental training budget that you attach to every major conference and spend that money to bring people there. Uh, that way you can remove that from your ROI of the event, like the direct ROI analysis, but you're able to take advantage of it because, I mean, I don't know that I'd say it's equally important. Uh, if you don't bring business from the show, you're never going to do another show. Uh, but it is really critically important. Any company that is either remote first now or looking to be that take advantage of those opportunities. You've got folks from multiple levels of the organization and multiple functions all in the same place. So if it's going to cost you another $5,000 or $10,000 to send uh, two to three extra people that you think could be valuable for, do it every time. Absolutely every time. Because the value you're going to get in the long term is incredible. Absolutely incredible.

Speaker A: Well Mark, you guys sound like you're absolutely killing it, man. I appreciate you coming on and sharing, you know, what's been going on right now in your world. Um, major, major takeaways for people listening to this, which is incredible. Um, and you know, I think I forgot to mention like you're the VP of Marketing at DNS Filter. I think I forgot to say that in the intro because the phone rang. Um, so now people know that. But give us like the 32nd rundown to close us out here. What do you guys do at DNS Filter and uh, send us out.

Speaker B: Sure, sure. So, uh, yeah, shockingly uh, at DNS Filter, we help filter DNS, uh, which is like the, it's like the phone book for the Internet, uh, for those who uh, aren't as technically inclined. Uh, and it's basically a potentially vulnerable layer, uh, that we help companies uh, protect and secure. Uh, we also help them to defend, find what people can or cannot access on the Internet. Uh, so whether, you know, what types of sites they can go to, where they can spend their time, things like that on it, uh, employer issued devices, uh, we do that as well. Uh, and then things like public WI fi, making sure that that's protected and the sites, people are going to our safe sites and they're not going to infect the organization. Uh, so that's what we do. I'm thrilled uh, to be the SVP of marketing there. I lead up uh, our marketing efforts and we just have a phenomenal team. It's a team of people from across the globe, literally across the globe, uh, who all just have incredible passion and enthusiasm. And it's the type of thing that you don't get if you're not remote first because you're never going to be able to hire talent all across the world like that and just learn. Uh, everybody on my team, uh, you know, it definitely bounces around. But there is not a single day that goes by that at least one member of my team hasn't inspired me. Uh, oftentimes it's not specific To. It's not specific to work even. Uh, and so I think having that opportunity, being able to build those relationships across the globe, I think is such a huge benefit of this remote work thing. And I know people are getting some takeaways, but please understand, nobody knows everything about this. I am not an expert. I am learning along the way, just like all of you. Uh, if you have any tips, please find me on LinkedIn and hit me up. I'm all for it. I'm all ears. Uh, it is my hope that if enough of us are doing this and are focused on it and trying to drive positive growth with remote first companies, that in five years we'll have this figured out and in such a way that nobody would choose to do anything else. Uh, and that's the goal I'd love for every company that can do it, that doesn't require somebody to be in an office specifically to do anything, to be remote first. And I think we're heading that direction. But listening to this podcast, who's stoked about the future? It's on all of us to make sure that, A, we're doing it, but B, we need to document both our successes and our failures. We need to put it out there on LinkedIn. We need to share that because we're all learning at the same time. And if we don't do that, uh, we're never going to get to that promised land.

Speaker A: You're absolutely right, Mark. Well, Mark, thank you so much, man. This was good having you back for the reunion tour. I think this was even better than round one for sure. I got a lot out of it and, uh, I appreciate it, man. This is a pleasure having you on.

Speaker B: It was fun. Thanks for having me. I'll come back in another hundred episodes or so. We'll do the. We'll do the 3p.

Speaker A: Hey, there we go, man. Absolutely.