#69: How Brand Research Drives Smarter B2B Acquisitions with Trevor Glue, Marketing Director at Ricardo

Hi to everyone listening. I'm Simi Dewan, Senior Client partnerships director at B2B International, and a very warm welcome to the B2B Insights podcast. Today I'm very pleased to be joined by Trevor Glue, who is Marketing Director at Ricardo. And together we'll be discussing a challenge that a lot of B2B businesses face, which is some of the growing pains that can be faced during acquisition. So whilst we know there's lots of opportunities that growth or acquisition brings for B2B businesses, not to mention expanding expertise, capabilities, global footprint, people and teams, but as we are acquiring businesses and brands, then of course there is sometimes that post acquisition challenge of navigating the brand. And that's exactly the challenge that Ricardo faced when Trevor came to us not so long ago. For those that don't know, Ricardo is a global consultancy business operating across a number of sectors, those being transport, energy and climate. And more recently, Ricardo expanded its expertise by acquiring a business called E3 modeling, which we'll find out a little bit more about later on in the episode. But in needless to say that Trevor approached us wanting to understand how E3M was perceived in the marketplace. So we worked together on some brand equity research and today's episode will very much be focused on what prompted that research, what were the most valuable insights, hoping for a few of those, and also more importantly, how that research helped to guide some of the strategic decisions that Ricardo made. So, without further ado, I'm very pleased to welcome Trevor, if you wouldn't mind saying a few words to introduce yourself and your current role within Ricardo. Not a problem at all. Thank you for having us, Simi. So, yeah, my name is Trevor Glue. I'm the Director of Marketing at Ricardo. Exactly. As you said, we're a global organization across engineering and environmental consultancy and my role is a global role, so I look after the marketing across the whole business. I've been with ricardo now about 15 years and my real focus is on brand development, on lead generation, and also supporting the sales growth. So a big part of my role has been around helping shape how we take our capabilities to market or our go to market strategy. And that clearly connects our expertise with the challenges our clients are trying to solve. Excellent. So classic B2B where you're pretty much combining four roles into one easy day. Excellent. So we mentioned that the research was centered around E3 modeling and some of the brand equity research that we did there and we'll talk a little bit more about that. It was very targeted depth interviews as part of that research given the specialism of what E3M do. But I suppose as useful background, it'd be helpful if you could lay out who E3M are in relation to Ricardo. Yeah, absolutely. So E3 modeling was a company that we've worked with for many, many years prior to acquiring them. So E3 modeling effectively work across the environmental, energy and economic nexus. They do large scale macro modeling across Europe and we were doing a lot of work with them on policy development. So Ricardo does a lot of work with people like the European Commission, for example, to help support the insights that develop policy and E3 modeling were providing a lot of the modeling work that was already going into the Commission. So it was a really, really great strategic fit for us in terms of how we were going to take our business forward. We'd worked with them for, like I say, a long time and there was a great cultural fit there, we felt so. Hence the fact that as part of our growth opportunities and organization, we wanted to take in E3 modelling as part of the business. Excellent. And obviously you had that existing relationship, as you said, and nice to hear that there were those synergies as well with E3 modell. I suppose, thinking back then to the start of the research, what was the kind of key challenge that you were wanting to solve as part of that? Yeah, it was a really interesting situation for us, I think we, because we've been working with them for quite a While, we understood E3 modeling relatively well. But it was a different environment when we were suddenly acquiring them and they were coming into the business. And from our perspective, it really came across two fundamental points. So the first was that whilst we had done our own research in working with them, the problem we had was that we were, I guess, worried about putting our finger on the scales, as it were, and having a bias as we came towards thinking about their integration. And I guess just having a concern that that bias would lead us to make poor decisions, business decisions, operational decisions, and particularly for the outcome of the brand. That would mean then that we would pay for that at a later date. That would have consequences in terms of how we might bring them forward in the market or how customers might view them. So there was a real sense of like, we wanted to approach how we were going to integrate them in a really open and clear way, internally and externally. The other thing that was probably a little different with it as well was that I think a big part for us with the integration was the hearts and minds piece. So there was a sense of, yes, the problem was how we were going to bring them into the business in terms of their customers and externally. But there's also how do we bring the employees with us? You know, they've developed a really well known brand, they're very proud of the way they are in the market and it was important to us that we were able to engage them and validate the research that we had done in a way that was going to help bring people with us on the journey to integrate the business. And you know, we have seen it previously where we've worked with companies that have been acquired where that can be the most challenging part, that they are very much embedded with their, with the brand that already exists for them. And when we're kind of trying to guide them towards a particular outcome or particular route to market, then it becomes more challenging for them. Sean, you mentioned there, you know, the importance of people within E3 modelling and certainly don't want to give any key nuggets away, but I know that that came through very important in terms of, you know, what the brand represented and the people within the brand. But I suppose from your point of view, and you talked about objectivity being really important and obviously conducting research, but with all that said, what would you say were the most valuable insights that you gleaned from the research? And I guess why, why were they particularly valuable? Yeah, I think so. It's an interesting, like I say, there's, you know, we had done some research before acquiring them, as you, as you'd expect, you know, we've done our due diligence and that included an aspect of, of the brand and marketing and market perceptions. I think, and I'll probably say this a lot in our discussion is around the validation. I think that was the thing that was so, so important to us is that we weren't just taking what we perceived as based on our existing workings with them, with our existing bias of what we knew about them, but particularly in trying to take the team kind of emotionally with us that we wanted to kind of validate that setting. So from that point of view, some of the initial feedback we got was as we expected, which was great and that was brilliant, but that was at a macro level. So I think for us some of the key insights that we gained were things like, were things like the balance between them being a commercial organization and also then having an academic capability. And that was something that we hadn't really thought about very much as Ricardo in terms of their position, we were thinking very much around, I guess more around the brand value, the brand equity, the kind of how well known they were to customers. Some of these specific positioning messages that came through from the research that customers had fed back was really, really useful for that for us. And that played. That has continued to play a really big part in how we talk about E3M today, how we've integrated them as we've moved forward. But even going beyond the marketing, it's really penetrated through, into the way that we think about the operations and some of the work that we do and some of the projects that we take on to align then with a message externally that we know is really, really valued by our customers. Great. So you mentioned something really important there, which is that you said you wanted the research to sort of validate what you knew, but then what you know already, but then also you gleaned some new insights about the brand position, as you say, and unique position that it had. And I think that's really important, isn't it, in this sort of research? You don'. Want it to be full of surprises. You know, it's quite reassuring to affirm what you might already know, you know, being the experts of the business and having that existing relationship. But I suppose it's that, you know, small percentage of information that you might, I guess, a blind spot that you might not have otherwise uncovered in the way that you uncovered it without the research. Yeah, I think it was really valuable. I mean, I talk about what we knew already, and it was very much at the macro level, but it was all the detail that came through the research of working with your team that made a really big difference for us. It really won people over internally, and it's really supported us in our continued messaging externally in terms of the way we work with clients. So I guess, like I say, it would be easy to think, well, you knew it. Why would you do research if you knew that long term? Because part of our question, I guess, really was, is the right decision for E3 modeling to become part of Ricardo? And how well known is the name and what disruption might that have for, I guess, for operations, for sales? What impact will it have on our performance if we change the name, if we just bring it into Ricardo? You know, we had a vision that we wanted to bring E3 modeling into Ricardo. What I thought was great with working with you guys, that was the thing you said to us from the beginning, like, where is it you think you want to go? What is it you're thinking you want to do? And we sort of agreed between. So we didn't really want to push an agenda because actually what we wanted to do and the whole reason for going externally was not that our own internal thoughts were going to guide this decision making. And I think I've seen it in lots of businesses time and time again is we kind of. We get to this place where we convince ourselves we know. And actually what you want to do is make sure you're really engaging the customers properly to hear what they're saying as opposed to, you know, I'm not saying this is the example in hand, but just a great example that I've had previously is, you know, a sales guy comes to you and the reason that you might have to then do something on marketing is based on why they lost their last sale, not based on necessarily what is really being said in the market. And we wanted to strip that away. And so for us, the investment in this research was hugely valuable. Even though we had a good idea of where we'd end up, and even though we had a good idea of what some of the results might say, it was all the detail that came underneath that. I remember you guys provided a lot of information around the way that customers wanted to be communicated with. Again, we completely addressed that approach in the way that we now do our marketing. So the kind of comms that we were putting out changed significantly as a result of the research that came. And I think what was great was that the modelers who, it'd be fair to say, like communication wasn't their main focus. Right. They absolutely are passionate and expert in doing highly complex modeling. So for us to then have the information, that's saying that the customers are really interested in them as individuals, they're really interested in the projects that are being delivered. That was valued just massively. Excellent. Thank you. That's really heartening to hear and actually why we do what we do. So thank you for being very kind in sharing that feedback. I should also say, I guess with it being a depth project that sort of lends itself to covering a lot of ground, which I think is really important because I think when you're speaking to niche audiences, they're not always the easiest to get hold of. So, as I say, whilst you're at it, you may as well put a number of different topics to them. So it did feel like the method allowed us to cover lots of different ground, as you say, not just in terms of the brand positioning and awareness and how it can be differentiated, but as you say, looking at things like communication and awareness, levels of the relationship with Ricardo and etc. Etc. So that worked really well. What was great for us is it felt like your team were also really good at just getting those extra nuggets. Like if they were like exactly as you said, if they were on the phone to one of the customers. And it's just, it's challenging to reach some of these team. It was the, I guess the unconscious comments that the customers would make that then as you start to pull those together over a series of customers and brought those into insights that were just really useful for us. Thank you. So just wanting to kind of go back to a point that we sort of touched upon at the very start of the episode, which is that this whole sort of post acquisition brand confusion that can sometimes occur and pose that challenge for B2B organizations. How, how if, if anything, has this research helped to sort of build clarity around, around the brand? Yeah, so. So for us, I think it was, I guess we felt particularly complex. So E3 modeling had a reasonably well known name amongst its customers, but it also had a set of products where those names, the products names were well known in the market as well. So sometimes people knew the company by the product names, sometimes they knew it by the company name. So I think having the research was just hugely valuable for us to kind of understand the different facets of those layers. So how well do people know the products? What associations did they make with the product names and E3 modeling and how well known was Ricardo in relation to those things? And so what enabled us to do was kind of break down some different approaches by different customer types by understanding what they were interested in. And it's also ultimately led to us bringing, you know, brought the team internal to Ricardo. So they now sit under the Ricardo name. And the team that are responsible for E3 modeling very much came with us on that journey because of the research. These are people that are highly data analytical, you know, highly data driven analytical. And so having clear and unbiased research that kind of validated the approach, made them feel very, very comfortable, they were very supportive of it and that really helped to move the business forward a long way. And like I say, it's impacted our considerations operationally. A number of the key insights that were provided through your final report. We've used time and time again to drive where the business will go. We kind of refer back to it, say, look, we know this based on the customer research we've done and therefore we make decisions as a consequence of it. Yeah, I mean you were saying then that you got that buy in, which is excellent from those within E3 modeling and they're certainly individuals after own heart, being analytically minded and academic and that certainly held us to a high standard on the project, it's fair to say. But it's really great to hear that they appreciated the findings and trusted the findings ultimately to get that buy in. And I'm also pleased to learn that it's not simply a report that's gathering dust and that's you've ticked a box, but actually something, I guess given the scale of what we covered within that depth research, it's something that you've been able to refer back to time and again, which is, which is absolutely what, you know, I suppose investing in insight should look like, right? Being able to kind of, you know, unpick all of the up to date insights in different contexts and be able to draw from it time and again. Yeah, I mean we wanted it to be a living document and it was great. I think it was brilliant. You know, you were all very open in sharing kind of some of the feedback that you were getting and the insights that were coming. We were able to share that with the team. So it very much kind of readied them for what information would be coming in the future. And yeah, we have, we very much have used that information to support us on an ongoing basis. It's very much like some of the key takeaways that were in that document have formed almost kind of firm statements in the way that we approach the marketing and the communication of that particular area of our business. And we just hold them true throughout everything that we do. They're kind of recited by the teams and held as kind of constant truths, as it were at the moment. Equally, we actually in this area have launched a new product and I know you did some research for us as part of that product development, but again, this played into that delivery and so it very much helped us on kind of not just the operational delivery for this business and the marketing, but then thinking about actually what do we want to do to grow in the future around the products that we then subsequently developed. That's great. And obviously we have been able to, as you say, look at product development off, off the back of it. And there does seem to be, you know, a lot of exciting things happening within Ricardo at the moment. You, I guess you touched upon this in some of what you've been saying more recently. But I suppose if you were to summarise, how do you feel the research ultimately influenced your business decisions or strategy? Yeah, like I said, I mean, as I've mentioned, really for us it was the validation of it, we could move confidently and therefore we could move more quickly. I think when you're looking at something like this, it's not an easy decision to make when you're thinking about do we invest in bringing in somebody externally to do market research for us, it's really tempting to just have somebody inside the company do that themselves and just to kind of have a go by looking online or using AI tools or whatever it may be. And I think time and time again we've seen that people can do that, but it always comes with a lens of why is somebody looking at this? What's their motivations for trying to find this information? Like, do they want change to occur in the business or don't they want change to occur in the business? And you do need an unbiased validation to support you with that. And I think it can seem like a lot of money up front initially when you think, are we going to do this research if we could do it ourselves? But then when I look now as to where we are and the decisions we may have made or may not have made as a consequence of not having the research, the costs would be way more significant than that. Now, having made a wrong decision, and I've seen this in organizations I've worked with, where we make a decision based on data that's come from a buyer source that might be a sales team, it might be product managers, whatever it may be. And then three years on from then, you're seeing the consequence of those decisions that, you know, even because timing was delayed or because you're working on the basis of something that you haven't really had validated and engaged with customers. So I think having that engagement with our customers, having all that insight come back for us, really made a big difference for us. So, I mean, it impacts what we're doing still now on a daily basis. I'm pleased to hear that and thank you again for sharing your experience in terms of how it's helped and that point there. We hear it a lot, actually. And of course, businesses, especially one like yourself, may well have the resources to explore things internally. And oftentimes we have clients who will share sort of anecdotal feedback with us, but it's not anecdotal. Feedback doesn't represent the market in full and it might not even represent the market today. And also it may, it may hold some bias. Right. So I suppose, you know, for us it's interesting because every project is different and we're in trying to immerse ourselves in your world and you know, and get to grips with, with that, but obviously working in partnership to ask the right questions. So it's really pleasing to hear that obviously it's been useful and it's been something that's been able to be used in lots of different ways. Again, I suppose thinking about bias, we had some glowing praise here and thoroughly enjoyed it. But at the same time, just to be completely balanced about it and please be honest, if you were to do something like this again, having gone through it, if you were to repeat a project looking at brand equity, you know, what would be, or if you were talking to somebody listening, who might be embarking on something similar, what would be your kind of key pearls of wisdom for them based on the lessons that you've learned on this project? In all honesty, I don't think it was anything to do with the way we work with B2B International. I don't think there was anything that I would personally say I would expect differently. I'm not paid to say that I can vouch the fact that you're not absolutely. It was more on our side. I think there were things that we would have done differently from our side if I'm, you know, being completely honest. So I think the, as you were aware, our ability to, to gain information, gain data that we could share with you, to do the customer calls in the way we wanted to was challenging, more challenging than we'd expected. And so, yeah, that's something we would have, would likely have done differently, I think. I think again, maybe just the beginning in the briefing, maybe bring some more of the stakeholders into the process earlier, it worked well still, but again I think I would have just brought other stakeholders in a little bit earlier. But there's genuinely nothing that I would have said B2B International could have done differently. Great, thank you. Although the point you made about bringing stakeholders in earlier is such an important one and really think it's worth one to stress because you ultimately, when you're doing this sort of research and you know, our main aim is to create action oriented insights which means that bringing those people on and aligning them to the journey at the beginning and obviously having their input into the process is critical because oftentimes it's those people who are going to have some responsibility for actioning some of the findings or taking things forward. And so I think it is really important to bring them on the journey as early as possible. So I think that is a really, really important point. So I suppose one final but really important question is thinking about the future now, what's next for Ricardo? Yeah, so it's an interesting time for Ricardo. So we have actually just recently been acquired by wsp. So there's a lot of hopefully very exciting opportunity for us, the at, as we move forward. Definitely a lot of alignment between Ricardo and wsp. Very passionate people about the good that they do in the world, you know, environmentally and with infrastructure and transport. So there's definitely a lot of alignment there. Certainly our consultants are super excited about the opportunities it's going to bring for both themselves in terms of the projects they'll get to get to work on, but also for the offering that we can then deliver to clients as well. So it's very exciting times for us. There's lots to come from in the future as we develop and we become part of wsp. Excellent. Well, hot of the press. Very exciting times indeed. Well, all that's left to say really is a huge thank you to you for sharing your experiences today and obviously from learning from yourself and your experiences, how you've approached the research and what you've done with it. Following, wishing you all the very, very best moving forwards and I suppose to everyone listening, thank you for your time too and certainly hope you've enjoyed the session and taken away something useful and insightful from it. But if you do have any questions off the back of listening, we would love to hear from you, so do please get in touch. You can do so via email, dropping us a comment or of course giving us a call. And please also feel free to subscribe to our B2B Insight newsletter, which you can do so at visiting our B2B Internationals insight hub@b2b international.com insights we look forward to hearing from you. So all that's left to say is thank you everyone for listening. Thank you again, Trevor. No worries. Thank you very much.