Space and Defense Innovation Launchpad Podcast - Episode 8

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Space and Defense Innovation Launchpad podcast. I'm Brian Fox, and in this series you'll be hearing from different technologists and technology leaders in government, industry and academia about their efforts to implement innovative technologies to impact civilian and defense missions. Together, we will explore multiple aspects of this technical realm, including vehicle propulsion, material science, digital geospatial and sensor technologies. Hello, and um, thank you all for joining us in today's Space and Defense Innovation Launchpad podcast. I'm Brian Fox with the University of Tennessee Space Institute, or utsi, and many thanks as always to ATARC for hosting today's podcast. I'm. I am so glad to have the leader, uh, from DEVCOM avmic Joining us, Dr. James Kirsch. Um, he's the director of, uh, the Aviation and M missile center, or avmic. Um, Dr. Kirsch, thanks for joining us. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your organization and your role there?

Speaker B: Sure, happy to do that. As you said, I am the director here of the DEVCOM Aviation and Missile center. And primarily we are the Army's, uh, home for all of the engineering support provided for the Army's aviation and missile systems. And that includes, uh, early science and technology investment up, uh, through support to systems as they're in development and production and fielding, and then even provide support as they go into the field and maybe have some questions or some challenges, uh, or new threats against them from the soldiers. So, uh, we're involved throughout what we like to refer to as the life cycle. And we are, uh, that home of the engineers, if you will, uh, for the army in those areas. Um, more recently, we are now also serving, uh, an additional role as the System center for the Fires portfolio within the army and the System center for the Aviation, uh, portfolio within the army, or, uh, sometimes referred to as Maneuver Air. And so in that role, not only are we responsible for the work that we do, uh, here at avmic, um, but we are also responsible for helping to coordinate all of the Army's investments in science and technology that support anywhere in fires or anywhere in Maneuver Air. So that keeps us pretty busy, as you might imagine. And it's all part of the Army's push, uh, to make sure that we're prioritizing our, um, investments in the right areas, leveraging what industry and academia are doing, and uh, most importantly, ensuring that we rapidly, uh, ensure capability in the hands of our soldiers and uh, and other war fighters.

Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of changes underfoot. And speaking of that procurement bit, I think that's our next Question here, which is you know there's, there is a desire and there has been for probably the last decade and a half right, at least. But definitely here in this uh, administration the drive to uh, more rapidly acquire capabilities, get that technology in the war fighters hands. How are you all at Devcom avmic adapting to faster procurement methods and authorities, uh, uh, especially in this new administration, some things have dropped, um, and they're trying to get things moving quicker.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. And really it's not just on the procurement side but it's in the technology development side. So ah, as the administration has made it very clear what their priorities are and in terms of capabilities uh, for our soldiers, uh, industry has really stepped up to the plate. Particularly what we refer to as our uh, non traditional defense contractors. And those are companies that uh, in many cases are small businesses or venture capital backed businesses that are taking a, I uh, will call it um, a unique approach to providing uh, in our case missile systems uh, for the army. And so rather than taking the years and years of development that we have historically done, uh, they are coming to the table with uh, capabilities that they believe they can produce, uh, not just develop but be producing within a very short one to three year time span and for a fraction of the cost of what we typically, typically spend. Uh, of course what that means is that we're making trades. When we do that it may not be the 100% solution, probably isn't, probably doesn't have all of the testing behind it that we normally would put behind it, maybe isn't designed to uh, sit in a bunker for 10 or 15 years and still uh, operate uh, the way it did the first day it came off the assembly line. Uh, but it's providing us opportunities to really take a look at uh, how we procure things, how we develop things and how we get them into the hands of war fighters faster. Uh, as we like to say, sometimes a 70% solution in the field today is better than 100% solution in the field five or six years from now. From our standpoint that means we are doing a lot more investments in asking industry to bring what they have. Uh historically we would invest, uh, and many times with our industry partners in developing a technology from beginning to end. And what we're doing now is actually providing um, more of a, hey, here's what we're looking for. Uh, we're going to give you a little bit of money, we expect you to bring some of your own money and uh, we're going to give you an opportunity to demonstrate what you've got, uh, in the next 12 months or 24 months and really show us whether or not, uh, what you've shown us on PowerPoint is real or not. And in that way we think we can get capability out in the field much, much faster.

Speaker A: And that's interesting to hear about your engagement with industry and how that's changing. But then, um, I'm sure there's a huge culture shift in supporting that faster acquisition and fielding within afmic. Um, I'm sure folks love getting to the 100% or even 110% solution, making sure it's perfect, uh, and going faster may mean less perfection. How are you supporting your team as they learn to go faster? And maybe some of it is them looking at risk differently. Can you talk a little bit, uh, Dr. Kirsch, about just the internal changes, culture shift, et cetera?

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. So you're absolutely right. It is quite the culture shift for us because we are used to ensuring that, uh, we meet every requirement that's handed to us, uh, that it is, uh, a very reliable System, you know, 95% reliability, uh, and that, and that it's something that we can store for a long, long time so that we have it when we need it, but we're not having to build it and throw it away and build it and throw it away. Uh, so it really is a culture shift to step back and go, hey, the name of the game now is not can we build the most exquisite capability? But the idea is how quickly can we build it? What can we get in that time frame and then provide the opportunity for, uh, army senior leaders to make decisions on whether or not that capability is worth going ahead and fielding. And maybe we continuously do that over time and we get closer and closer to that 100% solution. Uh, but the idea is get capability out much, much faster. From a risk standpoint, it is a much different, uh, take on risk, uh, because we are going to invest in things that aren't going to pay off, that aren't going to work. Great ideas, uh, but the idea is let's get it in a condition where we can test it, uh, quickly and see whether it's going to pay off or not. And if it's not, let's kill it and move on to the next thing. And so in a lot of ways, it's forcing us to be a little bit more accepting of risk. But at the same time, I think we have a responsibility as the subject matter experts, uh, when we do see something that's working or something that's uh, Maybe not the 100% solution, but we think provides a valuable capability. Then we also have to be able to inform decision makers on here's what it will do, here's what it won't do, and here's maybe some risks that we're going to accept in being able to go that fast. So it really is more of a understand the risk and explain the risk and allow people that have the authority to accept risk to accept those risks when it's appropriate, rather than us saying no, that's too risky, we're not going to do that.

Speaker A: And I'm sure that's got to be fascinating as a leader to lean uh, in on that and help everyone else lean in that. But Dr. Kersh, you brought up, ah, a term exquisite and even less exquisite. I'd like to pull that thread a little bit. At utsi, uh, where I work, we've been discussing the need for scalable hypersonics and what we can do to support that. Um, and I know you all are working on that as well. Um, what are you and your team there at Avmet M doing to ensure that these new weapon systems are affordable, scalable and less exquisite to get them into the warfighters hands in numbers that are necessary.

Speaker B: Right. So I think what we're uh, coming to the realization of is we need a suite of capabilities, uh, not just the most exquisite capability. And so uh, you've probably seen recently the army has fielded uh, its first hypersonic weapon, Long uh, range hypersonic weapon. And that is a very exquisite system. It goes a really long way. Ah, we placed some constraints on it due to uh, some treaty limitations that were in place at the time. It's a system that works, uh, it is a system that we fielded very rapidly. Um, but it is an exquisite, expensive system. Now we're stepping back and looking at what does this landscape look like today and understanding that we still need to be able to do things like hypersonics. Uh, speed is uh, survivability in a lot of ways. Uh, but we need to be able to step back and look at, well, okay, what can we do that's not quite as expensive, that maybe doesn't push all the way to the edge of the envelope, but operates more in a regime that's not quite as stressing and gives us the ability to trade whether it's materials, uh, in some cases because of uh, uh, uh, the uh, Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty is no longer uh, driving limitations, uh, on what we can Do. It allows us to play with other capabilities that we didn't have before because of those restrictions. And so we think we can do things that are not, uh, as exquisite, not as, uh, capable, but still give us, uh, quite the impact when you start looking at, uh, everything across the battlefield. So it's really opening the aperture and asking ourselves, where can we afford to relax some of the requirements and gain either, uh, the ability to make it easier to produce, not use, uh, the most exquisite materials or components on the planet and, uh, be able to get it out there in a much more rapid manner. And, uh, we're finding that there is, There, uh, is space to do that. If you open up, uh, your thought processes and say, um, and maybe, maybe one approach to doing that is saying, uh, and the army just did this recently. Uh, they put a solicitation on the street and said, hey, you know, Patriots are really great capability. It's really expensive. What can you give me? Or how good a missile can you give me if I only want to pay a million dollars for it, rather than $4 million for it? And so start backing off and looking at, hey, let's pick how much we want to pay and see what capability we can get in that price range.

Speaker A: That is fascinating. And, um, speaking of scalable and affordable, hypersonics are one thing and then drones are yet another. Um, they're literally at the point of being a commodity in the commercial space. You know, they're off the shelf. Dr. Kirsch, what's happening there at Avnic? What are you and your team doing to support the rapid fielding of drones to support the, uh, warfighter in the army and maybe elsewhere in the department?

Speaker B: Probably the biggest, most, uh, significant change just in the last few months has been the establishment of what we refer to as the Army's UAS Marketplace. And so this is, uh, an Amazon like, uh, capability where units, uh, are able to go onto this website, pick what they want, order it, and it's, uh, and it's sent to them. Uh, it's also a place where vendors can go in and nominate, uh, their products and look at, uh, what maybe, uh, the army requirements are to get into that system. And then finally, it's a place where, again, uh, the user community, the soldiers can go in and say, hey, we've seen this capability. We'd really like to have that. Uh, can you put that on the marketplace as well? Uh, of course, there are some restrictions on what we can do. Uh, there are, um, uh, some things that we want to look at. For example, we want to understand uh, the source of the components in those, uh, drones. Uh, as you might expect, uh, a lot of those are imported from overseas. And so we want to understand the electronics that are inside them and assess what risk are we taking, uh, by putting those in the hands of uh, our soldiers. And so we have a process for doing that and we are speeding up how that process works. So it really has uh, greatly accelerated the ability of uh, our soldiers and the army units to be able to go onto this marketplace, uh, find what they need and then uh, go ahead and uh, order it and get it into their hands as quickly as possible.

Speaker A: Speaking of folks jumping onto that marketplace, the units, the commanders, the soldiers, is there anything, uh, anything else you'd like to share with those unit commanders, those, those soldiers regarding getting the drones they need? Is there a POC within AVMIC that can assist or maybe even consult them? Because having the, the uh, the marketplace is one thing, they might want some expertise to help them choose. Anything else you'd like to share that way?

Speaker B: Yeah, so the, so the army is really trying to focus everything through the marketplace in even the support to answering those kinds of questions. So anybody can go, uh, online, do uh, a Google search for uh, Army UAS Marketplace. It will take you to the website. Uh, it is uh, a uh, secure website. So you know, units can get into it and then they can find the answers to the questions or be directed to the right points of contact. And since those points of contact uh, change over time, uh, the army's really trying, rather than giving direct answers, we're really trying to focus everyone to that website as the, as the one stop shop, if you will, to answer those kinds of questions?

Speaker A: Dr. Kirsch, is there anything just to lean in a little bit more on, on uas. Is there anything you all are doing to collect feedback from the, the field units that um, to then help others, uh, and as well as avmic, understand, uh, what's in that, that marketplace and what's working for units in particular context or mission, um, and maybe given feedback back to industry that's putting into the marketplace. Anything that way you'd like to share?

Speaker B: Yeah, certainly we are uh, we are certainly collecting feedback and providing the opportunities for uh, units who are testing these different systems to provide feedback. I know one of the big ones that always comes back is reliability. Uh, the units expect these things to work every time. And as you mentioned, they're almost commodity products right now. So they don't necessarily have the extremely high reliability that our soldiers are used to in their equipment. They're more commercial type products. And so I would say that's the big thing we hear is more reliability. And then of course they're always looking uh, for hey, can you help me? Hey, I, I flew my Dremel around and, and I crashed it and I broke a rotor blade. How do I get parts for it? Uh, so those kinds of things are always uh, coming up and uh, how do we sustain those items in the field? Because they, they are somewhat attributable. Uh, but if it is something that you are flying around in training, you don't want to lose a lot of them in training. And so the army is very interested in, hey, you know, can a unit buy, and a lot of units have buy 3D printers and can they print their own replacement parts where, where appropriate? So it's uh, it's continuing to be something that uh, is refining every day. It's been up for only about uh, three months now. So it will continue to grow and refine, uh, with that kind of feedback over the next, uh, several months and years to come.

Speaker A: Well that is really exciting to hear about all of that. And uh, uh, I can only imagine how exciting it is for the soldiers in the field. Um, we'll pivot a little bit here, Becca, uh, to kind of change management. Uh, would you have any advice for other senior leaders elsewhere in government that you can share from your experience in getting innovation fielded faster? In your case, it's soldiers in the field, but innovation being fielded has been a challenge, uh, everywhere in government. Um, what should they replicate from you? Any lessons that you'd have them avoid? Um, Dr. Kirsch?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think, uh, the big emphasis for us, um, with our workforce, um, our workforce is very passionate about the work they do. Uh, they don't want to give a 70% solution. They want to give that 100% solution because they feel that commitment to the soldiers. So I think, uh, a lot of it is just communication and trying to help people wrap their heads around the idea that right now in the world that we live in, uh, the pace of change, the way the threat's changing, the way technology is changing and accelerating, that we have to move faster, we're going to take more risks. I think one of the questions that we ask a lot is step back for a minute, don't think about how we've always done it, think about how we could do it and open up the aperture into considering other, uh, options. Um, and frankly, as we partner more and more with some of these, uh, venture capital companies, uh, that are really kind of growing, um, up on the idea that, hey, hey, I'm going to figure out what can I put together today and make it work? Not, I'm going to develop it for five years and then see what I got. They're putting things together. So I've asked our team, hey, as we're partnering with uh, industry, what can we learn from them? What can we learn from industry and how they stay kind of on that cutting edge of a technology and willing to take that risk in putting uh, things together and seeing how they work.

Speaker A: Yeah, appreciate that, Dr. Kirsch and I think other folks will be really interested to hear that feedback those thoughts and your experience as far as what to repeat and how to uh, push innovation. Um, but as we come to the end of this podcast episode, is there anything else you'd like to share that I didn't ask with our audience?

Speaker B: I think the main thing that we want to share is that uh, it really is, uh, we're in a situation where we kind of need all hands on deck. So whether industry, uh, whether academia, whether you're used to working with the federal government and you know, we've learned, uh, that especially for academia, if you haven't worked with the federal government, it can be a daunting challenge, uh, to work with the army, uh, all of the rules and regulations and things you have to follow. But um, really what I would say is we are very interested in hearing your ideas and your thoughts on uh, how we can bring technology to bear, uh, in the, in the challenges that we face today. And you know, it's no secret what those challenges are. You can pick up any, uh, any news site and see what's happening, uh, whether it's in Ukraine or whether you uh, saw it in the, in the Gulf over the last several months. The challenges are pretty obvious. And so uh, you know, we just invite everyone. If you've got some ideas, uh, we're, we're open to hearing what, uh, what those ideas are.

Speaker A: It's, it's wonderful to hear that. The open mindedness, the drive to change and see those better outcomes, whether it's with exquisite hypersonics or a marketplace for drones, uh, for, for folks to, or folks in uniform to get those quickly. So it's very exciting. Dr. Kirsch, thank you so much. Um, and Dr. Kirsch, I really appreciate you being on today and for everyone listening in, thank you for joining us today. Um, I hope you enjoyed the podcast. We're always interested in hearing from technologists and technology leaders in government, academia, and industry. So if you'd like to share how you are driving innovation and and modernizing outcomes for the US space mission, please reach out to me. Uh, bfox24tsi.edu. Again, that's bfox. Uh, bfox24utsi.edu. Um, Dr. Kirsch, thank you again for being on today. It was wonderful. Really appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thank you for having us.

Speaker A: Thank you all for listening to today's episode of the Space and Defense Innovation Launchpad podcast. Don't hesitate to reach out if you'd like to be a part of a future podcast. We'd love to hear from you. We hope you enjoyed today's discussion, so please don't forget to like, follow and subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes. We'll see you next time on the Space and Defense Innovation Launchpad Podcast.