Aras enters the Leader's Quadrant!

Fino (Sponsored by Aras): And we're live. ⁓ good afternoon. This is Michael Finocchiaro We're having a special breaking news podcast today ⁓ with my friend Josh of Aras How are you doing today, Josh? Josh Epstein: Doing great, Fino.

Good to be here. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Yeah, it's been a about a year ago, a little less than a year ago, you we were having this conversation about Forester putting Aras up with Siemens in the top of the Forester wave. And now ⁓ Gartner publishes the first magic quadrants since two thousand and eight. What do you think is behind that delay?

Just because they didn't have Aras up there or Josh Epstein: it's it's a great question. You know, I'm I'm I'm ⁓ I'm actually relatively new to the PLM industry. I just ⁓ about to celebrate my third ⁓ year anniversary here at Aras and you I I'm not I'm not from P L traditionally. ⁓ so I can conjecture and I've spent a lot of time with Mark and and Sidip.

⁓ I think the world is changing, you know. I think I mean, I know we'll talk about AI, ⁓ but you know, even before AI, you know, as I sort of stepped in and and Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Yeah. Josh Epstein: I was really attracted to this digital thread story when I when I first ⁓ got introduced to Aras, you know, that was the one area that I kind. That you'll can probably see in the way that we've been talking about the company over the past couple of years.

You know, we've been sort of amping the volume ⁓ around ⁓ digital thread and its sort of ⁓ you know, kind of ⁓ sort of intimate relationship with PLM. ⁓ and so I I think it's a it's a combination of things. I think that the all in all the world is getting more and more complex. and that PLM, ⁓ and I would say the ability to manage product life cycles.

⁓ is becoming ⁓ h harder and more and more of a of a kind of competitive differentiator among manufacturers. So I think it's a it's a it's a combination of things. ⁓ and then obviously AI has been a supercharger here over the last twenty four months or so ⁓ as people are getting more and more ⁓ excited and serious about bringing AI into their their PLM ecosystem. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): So the the leaders back in two thousand and eight were were basically the big three.

⁓ and th and Aras wasn't even on that map up in two thousand eight. In fact, Aras was only eight years old back then. do you think the market is I mean, you said you don't have a background, but you know, you've been around technical software. Do you think the market has fundamentally changed and that Ares is built for this new way of working, more so than s the the three incumbents that were there in two thousand and eight?

Josh Epstein: Yeah, I think I think there's actually two two separate questions in there. One, you know, has the market changed and and and the technology category changed? Abs absolutely. Right.

And I think that ⁓ you know, look and I've I've ⁓ you know I've had the chance to work with ⁓ you know, the folks like Rob McAveney and and even Peter Schroer you know, the founder of Aras who is still on our board, ⁓ and Leon Lauristen who, you know, has only been part of Aras for five years, but you know, has a long, long history in PLM and working in the Aras ecosystem. So kind of been able to sort of see how how they've seen the market evolve, but also just sort of studying kind of the the history of the space, working, you know, with with you and with other other folks that that know the ⁓ that have been that spent their career in in this area.

⁓ and I I think you look at the evolution of of this this PLM space, right? Kind of beyond initial PDM, ⁓ kind of starting to meaningfully take on ⁓ a a broader and broader swath of business processes. you know, and then start to think about the linkage between those business processes ⁓ is is really ⁓ is really important. And back to the idea of the digital thread, there was a ⁓ Sadip, ⁓ Sadip from Gartner, and one of the MQ authors, ⁓ showed a slide to me maybe three years ago that kind of looked at the different I'm sure it's out in the Gar Gartner somewhere, the Gartner verse somewhere, but you know, it sort of showed all of the key.

sort of domains of enterprise software, you know, from from ERP and supply chain and ⁓ and and CRM and and then and then PLM. And then sort of looked at the subdomains. And it was really, really interesting because, you know, ERP is a there's a few categories of kind of core functionality that go into ERP. You have finance, you have kind of old MRP and inventory planning, HR, ⁓ you have CRM where it's really, you know Fino (Sponsored by Aras): HR Josh Epstein: Customer data, maybe sales related data.

Like there's a couple of kind of key domains of of of ⁓ of of business process that kind of work together in what we call CRM. But then you get to PLM and it's like, you know, it's it's MBSC stuff, it's it's requirements management, it's is core PDM, it's quality, it's you know, ⁓ it's sort of there's there's tens of categories. And then you just try to think about how the data has to flow through each of these. And really the the product digital thread, the notion of that really stretches even beyond PLM into those other categories of of software.

So I think just the complexity has been growing exponentially. And you know, frankly, I think that the the the way that the software categories, the PLM market, you know, software category has evolved is primarily through acquisition, if you look at what the other the big three have done. And so you you know, I I I think we've seen ⁓ the market getting more complex, the the software failing to really kind of evolve at the same rate. And and you know, when we look at Aras, you know, I I like to t say that you know, Aras ⁓ is playing a different game than the big three.

Like we happen to play on the same playing field, right? And it's the same market. And we do obviously compete for for the most part for, you know, same, the same dollars, the same market share. We're playing a very different game.

We kind of come at the whole problem ⁓ very, very differently. And ⁓ you know, we're we're we're excited to see it recognized as a as an approach that's ⁓ on par or I think in many cases even you know leading ⁓ what what the traditional ⁓ legacy PLM ⁓ incumbents are are doing. So we're super excited about where it's going. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Yeah, seems to me like I meant I remember back maybe five, six years ago, I would use the term Big Three and the Aras guys could all back on me like, man, you say that.

It's a big four, it's a big four. But it like it's sort of a differentiator for Aras say you're not the big three. You're the fourth one, you're the one that doesn't have an MCAD. But that's sort of why with Gartner coming back at the report in 2026, after four years of intense AI change and with Aras messaging being so centered on AI.

Josh Epstein: Yeah. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Maybe that's one of the reasons that makes that that's a sort of a differentiator for you guys, right? Josh Epstein: Well we think so. I mean it's I think it's it's a c it's a competitive advantage that we're we're ⁓ MCAD or or really CAD agnostic.

and you know, I like to s say that we we we also coexist alongside same as PTC and Dessau, right? There there are instances where that they are I mean, clearly they're the the CAD of record, but there's instances where they're at the PDM of record as well. Right. And Iris can still come in, coexist ⁓ and ⁓ sort of fill in gaps and then, you know, kind of continue to build and and create value over time.

And we think that's only gonna increase ⁓ with the power of our digital thread capability and then the potential to layer on AI on top of that that digital thread and have that AI kind of integrate its way into the way ⁓ PLM and and you know products get built. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): I wanna double click and dive ⁓ drill down a little bit into that. So everybody says AI now, of course, and but Ares has been saying something a bit narrower, governed engineering AI with explainability and life cycle awareness.

So can you unpack that? What are you deliberately not claiming that others are trying to claim? Josh Epstein: Yeah. Yeah, I I I guess I I wouldn't characterize it as being n narrower per se, ⁓ at all, actually.

I think that that ⁓ we we see ⁓ I see everyone is excited about AI, the the transformative potential of AI is is is obvious. ⁓ but whereas really all the other players in the market are talking about kind of point applications of AI, and sort of the first one obviously, you know, co pilot services search, like just let's let's face it, I mean finding You know, the the the information you want within the PLM, you know, ⁓ ecosystem of of data is is complex. So semantic search, advanced search, natural language angry analytics, huge kind of step forward.

And we see, you know, our competitors talking about those capabilities in addition to to what Aras is doing. ⁓ and then likewise we've got sort of PLM work agents, so kind of automation of of time consuming workflows. whether it be importing a bill material or obviously change management, kind of automating a piece of the change management process. ⁓ Aras is doing that as well.

⁓ you know, you step back and you think about where this is all going. And and really, ⁓ you know, this is not just within PLM, but this is kind of across ⁓ sort of the SaaS and the AI universe and sort of the enterprise AI is just this this challenge of governance, right? You know, that there are there's not going to be ⁓ ones, there's not gonna be tens, there's probably not even gonna be hundreds of agents. There's going to be, you know, multiple hundreds or even thousands of of agents of different, ⁓ you know, diff different structure, different work that are interacting with product data in different ways.

And we feel that the the only way to actually achieve that in a scalable way is through a scalable governance model. What does governance mean? You know, Rob, ⁓ Rob McAveney ⁓ at our at our our ⁓ ACE, our ⁓ Aras user event or community event, which was just back in April. You were there, you were you were you were at the event.

⁓ the he ⁓ did a nice talk and talked about really how do we get trust, really the the the primacy of trust. ⁓ and he talked about ⁓ governance is really kind of including ⁓ you the ability to to govern obviously data access and kind of Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Mm-hmm. Josh Epstein: But that's sort of what agents get access to what data, but it's also what users get access to what data through which agents, which users get to access to which agents. You sort of think about all the all of the importance of governance for privacy, ⁓ for cost control in FinOps, ⁓ and just for for scalability is is is monumental.

And then you kind of shift your gaze towards ⁓ explainability, right? Explainability and observability, really understanding. How these different agents are interacting with data, how they're coming up with their their suggestions, their recommendations, their decisions, ⁓ becomes another layer of ⁓ challenges or observability challenges that we think ⁓ are critical to solve. And that's really where Aras is putting all of our focus.

⁓ and yes, there will be ⁓ Gentec services, there will be you know, change management agents, or are change management agents. in in the ecosystem as well as you know core co-pilot services like search and natural language analytics, ⁓ you know, RAG RAG-based services. ⁓ but what we've done is we've we've you know we've sort of started talking about Aras Innovator Edge ⁓ two years back and now this ⁓ now we're talking about Aras Innovator Edge AI, which is our AI framework that's built on top of our of our edge ecosystem that that plugs into that kind of core Aras innovator core.

⁓ We look at this as a platform strategy. We all we've always looked at PLM as a platform strategy. And now we're kind of all in on ⁓ on kind of creating this trusted access layer ⁓ for for AI to get in and and and help folks within their their PLM business processes. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Well, speaking of trust, ⁓ since AI is only as trustworthy as the context it's running on, how central is the digital thread itself to making AI engineering AI safe enough to actually be acted upon and not just ⁓ you know a summary or a or a copilot?

Josh Epstein: And this this is why ⁓ you know we're so ⁓ committed to to leading, frankly, in in the way that AI is integrated within PLM. You know, Aras from the get-go was envisioned as ⁓ you know PLM, kind of software to address product lifecycle business processes built on a a a core digital thread infrastructure. And by the way, this is before the term digital thread was invented that it was that we we really ⁓ I started thinking about kind of this consistent data platform on which you can layer on ⁓ software applications.

But we like the the digital thread framework, the thinking behind that term and really the way that the industry's been talking about digital thread has has ⁓ continued to kind of sort of reflect ⁓ what our what our core vision is. But yeah, the digital thread is fundamentally necessary for AI to be successful ⁓ in in Whether it's performing a basic search or it's actually executing a workflow across multiple different different business functions. So the the digital thread really reflects that that a knowledge graph ⁓ of information, right?

And and ⁓ you know I I come from not from PLM, but I am from from data and I come from really the analytics ⁓ space. And one of the interesting points that I've I've come to appreciate about PLM data, digital thread data in in particular, is just the multiple levels of complexity. ⁓ and and you know, it's not just about semantic layer of kind of what what you know, what is a part, what is a what is a model, what is a, you know, what is a quantity, what is a what is a cost. ⁓ it's also the different layers of of access control, the different layers of of ⁓ of of variance, ⁓ the different layers of ⁓ you know effectivity dates and ⁓ And version control.

And so just the the ⁓ necessity to manage all of that knowledge in a with within a semantic layer that's not just about kind of the individual physical pieces, but it's about kind of the context around those those ⁓ those those data elements is necessary for first of all humans to interact with and know what what we're working with, but then obviously for AI to interact with, and it back to the necessity of ⁓ of trust and explainability. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Hm. Josh Epstein: You know, when when you ask ⁓ you know, your your AI co-pilot for ⁓ information on say, hey, what requirement drove this ⁓ this this design decision, right?

It's really necessary that the the AI either can can know from the context or actually can know that it doesn't have the context necessary to sort of say, Okay, well what version are we talking about, right? Yeah, and and and really kind of ensure that the answer it gives is ⁓ explainable and ⁓ and and accurate. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Mm. Josh Epstein: And can be worked with by a human operator because the physical world requires, you know, still requires sort of human decision makers.

We have a, you know, we're regulated, we've got ethical ⁓ requirements to ensure that we are ⁓ designing safe products. ⁓ and so it's it's it's critical that we ⁓ you know understand what suggestions our AI is giving and we take ownership of them. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): So as a CMO, how do you market AI in twenty twenty six without just being another another blowhorn ⁓ another horn adding to the noise? Like where's the vi line between vision and overpromise?

And what can a customer actually touch an innovator today versus the stuff that's coming ⁓ down the road? Josh Epstein: Well it's it's a it's ⁓ it's a fair it's a fair question. I don't take offense. ⁓ marketers are blowhards about it by nature.

But ⁓ you know, first I'd say that we we are very ⁓ committed to the ⁓ the notion of governance as being number one, right? So we really are committed to that in our in our messaging as well as you know in in the way that we ⁓ introduce new capabilities to to our our customers. ⁓ Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Ha ha ha. Josh Epstein: The nature of the the the way Aras has worked with our our community really for forever has been very ⁓ empowering, right?

So we we expect our our subscriber base, our partners to actively innovate. For years we've had our leading partners actually experimenting with different AI applications, leveraging our open APIs, leveraging our open data model. ⁓ and so now by laying on this innovator edge AI suite and providing ⁓ you know ⁓ dedicated governance. And I would say dedicated API driven first class access to all of the utilities within the innovator ecosystem that's just being opened up.

And then we are, we are, ⁓ we are early access with multiple different ⁓ AI driven products, our own kind of natural language analytics ⁓ utilities, our own ⁓ implementation of graph rag, we call thread rag, ⁓ which is just ⁓ an intelligent way to go in and and and ⁓ interrogate a digital thread for ⁓ for ⁓ for rag based ⁓ operations as well for context as well as for a whole series of ⁓ of ⁓ workflow automation agents ⁓ that that we're working with. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): But for context, right.

Josh Epstein: You know I so you you know the the I we might get there, but you know, you you we use the word context, right, in in a lot of different ⁓ contexts. the and you know there's there's a there's there's like a a lot of ⁓ discussion in the LinkedInosphere and I had a you know at a actually have a conversation with Oleg coming up about product memory, right? ⁓ and and really recognizing that and Gartner's got some some ⁓ Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Right. Josh Epstein: Some ⁓ coverage on this as well outside of PLM, but but this idea that that the context graph really complements the knowledge graph.

⁓ and so you've got really this context graph, which sort of includes all the decision trace information that that sort of sees ⁓ the decisions that humans are making within the context of kind of what information they're given. And to be able to store those decision traces is fundamental for for training of the next generation of agents. And so ⁓ We think that this is super important and I think that that you know, one of the things we strongly believe at at Aras is that you need to have that that data layer managing both the knowledge ⁓ as well as the context graph that's tightly coupled with the way that people do work, right?

tightly coupled with the application user experiences that people are are interacting with the Fino (Sponsored by Aras): that I think public application user experience is that people are are interacting with their Josh Epstein: with the digital ⁓ threat information as well as the gen tech ⁓ experiences that they're they're working with is you need to s you need to have visibility into what decisions humans are making and what information they're given at the time of decision in order to create that that context that it can be actually very useful for ⁓ creating sub such ⁓ subsequent generations of of agents.

So Fino (Sponsored by Aras): information as well as the genetic ⁓ experience because they're they're what we should need to do yet have visibility into what decisions they're making, what information they're giving at the time. that's great answer. Thank you. ⁓ let's talk a little bit about positioning.

⁓ last year with the Forrester wave, Siemens was out front, ⁓ Aras just behind them. And now Gartner comes up with the magic quadrant with the big three, but Aras for the first time up there. ⁓ Does validation by two different analyst firms change the whole sales conversation? Or is it just confirming doors that were already open last year, when Forrester, when George gave you guys the nod?

Josh Epstein: You it's a it's a it's a good question. I'll I'll ⁓ so I have a a long, long history of ⁓ of working with Gartner. And I I I started my career in the ⁓ the storage industry at E EMC back before they were acquired by Dell, and ⁓ in into cybersecurity into dev tools. And you know, Gartner I'd say has outsized influence on ⁓ enterprise decision making.

⁓ Forrester, very well known. I mean there's there's some, you know, the you look at the sort of the the tier one kind of ⁓ the the the the general ⁓ technology analyst firms, the Foresters, the IDCs, ⁓ the Gartner's. And then obviously we've got, you know, in in in every industry has its own kind of specialized ⁓ players like ⁓ like some beta and ⁓ in our in our exactly ⁓ you know but Gartner ⁓ Gartner has outsized influence on on buying decisions. ⁓ they ⁓ you know they they most Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Some data tech clarity and stuff.

Josh Epstein: I would say most all ⁓ enterprise organizations, enterprise IT organizations subscribe to Gartner ⁓ will kind of consult Gartner you know, when they're they're preparing an RFP, will consult Gartner during the the procurement cycle. And so ⁓ yeah, having Aras really in that blob of of the big four ⁓ is is strategic for us. And so we're we're happy that we were there. In terms of where we fit, you know, yeah, ⁓ I I I I I ⁓ Sidip and Mark ⁓ credit.

They did a, you know, and sorry, the whole Brady and and the whole ⁓ Gartner PLM team, they did a lot of work. ⁓ you know, the critical capabilities ⁓ analysis, which sort of kind of complements the Gartner ⁓ MQ, ⁓ you know, was well done. And so, you know, I'm not gonna argue Aras placement relative to the others, we're we're we're very satisfied and happy that we're included up with the other the other big three. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): It was cool too.

You had couple of smaller ones that were included. Like f ⁓ Oleg finally g got on there, contact software. So it was kind of a nice ⁓ well, as usual, Mark and and Sudeep really really knocked it out of the park, I think, with this one. ⁓ you've pitched really hard on digital thread as a language.

Is P L even the right word for what Aras sells, or are you quietly recategorizing? Josh Epstein: You know, that's a it's it's it's a great question. I'll I'll kind of ⁓ you know no no script here. you know, I I I like I said, Aras is playing a fundamentally different game than the other classic PLM vendors.

And ⁓ you know, there's my my career's been about kind of finding category defining or redefining ⁓ softwares. And I and I do think Aras has has done that really well. ⁓ you know, I'll I'll we spend a lot of time thinking about the Kind of the the words we use, the positioning, you know, we use to describe Aras. And so w what we describe Aras today is is Aras Innovator.

Aras delivers a digital thread platform for delivering PLM and engineering AI solutions, right? So that's that's very conscious that we we do that. ⁓ but you know, P P L is still the space. People people are still, you know, running PLM, RFPs, ⁓ RFIs.

⁓ we we clearly want to be included in all of those. but we do think that Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Mm-hmm. Josh Epstein: digital thread use cases as as we call them, which can can be kind of a fundamental PLM strategy. Right.

You know, we we all know ⁓ you know Oracle A9 is g is going end of life. People there's a there's a mass move ⁓ for ⁓ the folks out there to be evaluating ⁓ new ⁓ PLM solutions. That's great. We want to bring ours in and position us as a digital thread platform for delivering PLM solutions and those use cases.

We also have ⁓ you know a lot of of examples of ⁓ we are still a lot of examples of customers ⁓ that find us, ⁓ you know, but they're not planning on replacing their their PLM or their PDM solution anytime soon. Right. So we we do think that it's sort of a category expansion. ⁓ and I'd like to see the term digital thread continue to to kind of, you know, ⁓ take on and kind of become its own category, ⁓ whether it's an adjacency or a subcategory of PLM, I don't know.

⁓ but ⁓ you know. U using the right using the terms, making sure that we're finding people, you know, in the ⁓ for the for the the problems that they're trying to solve is is that's the marketer's problem. So that's what Fino (Sponsored by Aras): Yeah, I put out that vault diagram and I put cognitive thread even above ⁓ digital thread in terms of the additional knowledge of AI and all that stuff. ⁓ Josh Epstein: Well yeah.

How how do you think that so I and I I really like your ⁓ your your term cognitive digital threat I don't know if that was yours or or you you are but how how do you how do you see cognitive digital thread and product memory interacting? Do you think those are synonyms or do you think that they're Fino (Sponsored by Aras): I I think the well the product memory is more ⁓ over time, like you know, how many releases back and how do I ensure that that version that that I shipped a couple of years ago that just broke, how do I figure out where the the the problem happened?

⁓ cognitive is also thinking about insights and looking forward, not just looking backwards and seeing what's the next improvements that's gonna give me a leap forward and innovation or or over the competition and how can I save more money, how can I Josh Epstein: Yeah. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): also be more efficient and have more sustainability bits in my product in terms of recyclability and stuff. So I think that's I think they're very complementary. I don't think they're they're 'Cause I I well I think product memory is more centered around the product.

Digital thread is more not just the product, but ⁓ the rest of the life cycle, all the way back to the sub to the towards the supply chain and ⁓ service and and all the way back to ideation. I think digital threads are about maybe thinner and longer and pro product thre ⁓ product is a little shorter but a lot deeper kind of thing. That's how I would see it. Josh Epstein: Yeah.

It's ⁓ you know, it's it's ⁓ I I like them both. I I I ⁓ I always in my in my marketing career, I always try to avoid creating my own term, right? ⁓ it's better to kind of latch on to one and not and I'll be honest, I think that digital thread still has the most ⁓ kind of oomph, you know, and I but obviously I I think you look back to the the twenty ten when the you know US Air Force sort of coined the phrase, ⁓ you know, I I I think the way that we talk about it, the way the industry talks about digital thread today, it's it's Fino (Sponsored by Aras): ⁓ yeah.

Josh Epstein: more broader. It's it's it's broader than kind of that originally conceived notion. ⁓ but but I think still consistent. So yeah, I think yeah, I I I love the fact that there is more and more kind of dialogue around it.

I I think that ⁓ you know Aras wants to be right smack. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): ⁓ and I ⁓ I should go ahead and shamelessly plug the fact that I had Rob ⁓ and my future appeal and panel ⁓ about a month ago talking about product memory after Oleg, who get it's credit for the first ones who are blogging about it and Rob's the first one that gets credit for mentioning it in a keynote. I think although other people claim uses ⁓ before that. ⁓ if we specify the exact moment then ⁓ yeah.

⁓ so f just as a last question, ⁓ play it forward like three years. Although it You know, even eighteen months is a li hard, but ⁓ if the govern AI thesis is right, what you talked about at the beginning, what is the life of an engineer, the day in life look like on Ares and how does that differ from how he works that he or she's working on a P L ⁓ today? Josh Epstein: Yeah, no, I think it's a ⁓ it's a fascinating question. And I think that, you know, th three years from now, you know, I have we have we reached PLM singularity with sort of self-improving kind of ⁓ you know, PLM agents and we're all I I let's sort of let's ⁓ say before that happens, right?

I think I'd be you know, I don't wanna argue again that it's never gonna happen, ⁓ but but ⁓ that that's a little bit far out. I think that ⁓ so I I was really was inspired with ⁓ again I don't want to butter Rob up because ⁓ you know we ⁓ we have a good ⁓ we have a good relationship. But he he gave a talk at at ACE on this identification of user experience, right? ⁓ and likewise Egal, our you our head of product ⁓ talked about ⁓ the future of adaptive PLM.

They're really just sort of ⁓ two ways of looking at the same phenomena. ⁓ you know, we we see it happening today, ⁓ PLM kind of taken to to sort of mean the sort of PLM software. the software applications that are that are built to support product lifecycle business processes. Those those applications starting to decompose ⁓ into ⁓ more agent-driven more more even micro experiences, right?

This is, you know, be a bit forget AI. Aras has always been about flexible user experience, the ability to kind of quickly create ⁓ new user experiences and, you know, with with our Innovator edge and kind of API-driven task-based apps. ⁓ we we see the way work gets done of on online and digitally to gradually be decomposed where you have more micro experiences, some of them just point collaborations between human to human, kind of point interactions between the human and agent, and then actually behind the scenes agents to agents ⁓ working on this this digital thread that's that's ⁓ that's ⁓ exposed to AI.

and human collaboration through a scalable ⁓ governance layer ⁓ that allows us to I think Rob uses the term ⁓ kind of decomposing the way work gets done and then redelegating how work happens. and ⁓ that's pretty profound. And what's cool, I think, is that ⁓ you know there's lot of hype out there about AI native companies and you can you have super powerful data platforms like like say Databricks ⁓ and then this and the this idea that you can kind of just kind of take all the data out of your you sort of PLM or out of out of your operational systems, kind of ETL it over into a data lake and kind of like let your AI kind of go nuts and just so sort of rebuild the entire ⁓ business process.

And I think that's that's a little naive, right? I think that ⁓ maybe it happens. Someday, right? Kind of once the PLM singularity happens and you know we've got a super intelligent, you know, bot that can kind of re- reimagine data structures and kind of manage all of this ⁓ kind of context and it persists all that context ⁓ in a way that it can manage.

But you know, in the in the meantime, the the the necessity to kind of cr ensure that where work happens, kind of where people are interacting with agents. Is tightly coupled with that knowledge graph and those context graphs, such that you can kind of persist that information in a way that it can be regulated, in a way that it can be traceable, in a way that, you know, at any point in time, humans can explain the decisions that they've made is really fundamental. So I do think the way people work will be very different, but I do think that they're going to be working on, we'll call it PLM software.

That software, though I think is going to look quite different. It's going to be a series of micro experiences. And the digital thread becomes even more important because it's managing all of both all of the information required as well as tracking all of those decisions, providing all that explainability and observability you need to kind of work in the physical world. ⁓ so I I think it's ⁓ exciting.

And I think, you know, I another thing I I like to really think about is you know, you see how AI is completely transforming software engineering. ⁓ and the same will happen with physical products, but like the physical world is, you know, the stakes are higher, right? I mean, y yes, there's safety concerns, there's ethical concerns, there's regular concerns, but like end of the day, like, you know, close isn't enough. When you're trying to fit two pieces together, it has to fit exactly, right?

And so You know, ⁓ yeah, yes, inferences can be in inferred relationships and inferences can be really powerful for speeding decision making. But at the end of the day, like it has to be validated. Inferences or kind of AI generated ⁓ suggestions or decisions need to be validated by a human or or or another layer of human supervised AI in order for it to work. So ⁓ I I think that that ⁓ PLM software will continue to be an important category.

in the way ⁓ engineer products ⁓ come to market. And ⁓ frankly I think that Ares is really well positioned to lead there. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): I don't think we've seen the open AI moment yet for for PLM, although ⁓ and I don't know yeah, I don't even I don't even know three years is the right the right framing because it could happen in a couple of months, but it it'll probably be more to six six to twelve I'd say at least. I'd say.

Well we'll see. We'll see how well these startups do. How who survives the next wave of of acquisitions which just started like three weeks ago. ⁓ Josh Epstein: That's your prediction.

Okay. Well we'll see. Fino (Sponsored by Aras): It's been real great talking to you once again, Josh. I ⁓ congratulations once again, what a fantastic job you guys did to ⁓ Aras up you know, last year get into Forester now to the Magic Quadrant of Gardener.

So congratulations, it's great. Josh Epstein: Thanks, Fina. Thanks, thanks for what you do. Appreciate it.

Fino (Sponsored by Aras): And ⁓ to my audience, yeah we'll have ⁓ build and bench on Thursday, ⁓ what would that be June ⁓ June eighteenth? So ⁓ we'll talk to you then and ⁓ thanks once again. Have a great afternoon.