Lessons From a Non-Profit Marketer

Speaker A: Welcome to Ahead of the Game, a podcast brought to you by the Digital Marketing Institute. I'm your host, Will Francis, and today I'll be talking to James Meisner, all about marketing for non profits, which James knows a lot about because he's the founder and CEO, uh, of the Kiepost Group, which helps non profit leaders generate more revenue. Over his career, he's helped non profit organizations raise hundreds of millions of dollars. He's an expert in all aspects of fundraising strategy, particularly around the culture comms, the marketing around small to mid sized organizations engaged in direct service. So that's what we're going to learn about from James. Welcome to the podcast, Will. Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here. Oh, it's great to have you. It's, uh, been a while, a long time since we thought about nonprofit marketing for sure. And uh, I know that things change and I'd love to get your take on it. You've got such deep expertise. Um, before we do that, just give us a super brief and condensed version of, you know, how you got here, how you got into nonprofit marketing and um, how that's been going for the last few years. Yeah. So I am in the suburbs of Washington D.C. and I moved here decades ago and I quickly fell in love with the nonprofit space and I wanted to go on the program side. I wanted to actually be, you know, on the field doing work. And I quickly became the resource, storytelling, communication guy whenever we had a project. James, go get us some more money for this. And so I was like, okay, if I want to change the world, maybe the way I do it is by helping raise the resources that are required to bring about the change that I want to see. And that was, you know, 25 plus years ago. And here we are. Wow. It's funny that, isn't it? You know, when it comes down to it, that's what can really move the gears and get things going is money. Right? Absolutely. It makes the world go around whether we like it or not. Yeah, it's funny that. How do you, how do you reconcile that? So you're working in a nonprofit space. You're surrounded by people. You know, I've worked, uh, I've had nonprofit clients before. And you're surrounded by people who aren't natural kind of corporate types, natural capitalists. And some of them maybe are slightly against the idea. But you're the guy who like, no, if we're going to really make change here, I have to go and find funds, um, because that's what's really going to lift the boulder up the mountain kind of thing, so. Or move the mountain. So how do you reconcile that tension? I don't view it as attention at all. Okay. And I think that's probably how it's reconciled in my mind. So many nonprofit leaders do what they do because of a deep, I'm going to use kind of love. They do it for this deep love for the communities that they're trying to serve or for the issue that they're trying to fix in the world. And if you truly love those people, if you're serving people, if you truly love that cause, if you're working on climate or something like that, then you will do things that you might feel uncomfortable with, that you might even be a little bit, you know, seeded, you know, by. You'll do it for the sake of those people or for the sake of that cause. So when I work with nonprofit leaders, that's how I try to motivate them. Not get over the capitalism thing or just get over your discomfort with asking for money. Hey, if you really love these people, if you really love the cause, the most loving thing that you can do has actually worked to get the resources to advance the thing you're talking about. Because if not, you're actually not loving them as much as you could be. Yeah, yeah. No, that's again, it's about results, isn't it? It's about the end results. Um, so is nonprofit marketing all about fundraising or is there more to it? Oh, yes and no. Okay. I'm not going to say that it's all about fundraising, but at the end of the day, you do need money. Especially in this period of governments around the world retrenching, you know, on commitments to the social sector. You do need money to keep the lights on and to keep the, you know, trains running. However, it's not all about just money, Okay. A lot of it is around education. Okay. Some of these issues people just don't know about. If I were to ask the average person in the world what, where is the biggest war happening right now? People would say Ukraine. People would say Gaza. People would say Iran because of, you know, what's happening there. No, those are all wrong. By 10x, the biggest war in the world right now is in Sudan, and it has been for the past, you know, five, six, seven years. So a big part of marketing of nonprofit, you know, fundraising and marketing is just, hey, this is an issue that's happening. We need to be aware of it. Okay? One of our clients right now, uh, they work in one of our national parks, uh, here in the U.S. yosemite National Park. And our current political leadership wants to literally, uh, pave paradise and put up a parking lot, you know, inside the national park. They have diverted their marketing efforts to a large advocacy campaign that's actually seeing tremendous success at putting pressure on the administration not to do it all in the interest of tangible real world outcomes. But it's not always dollars and cents. Sometimes there's other things that you can, you can go after. That's really interesting that, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I suppose there is a kind of a, there is a parallel with other kinds of marketing there. Right. There's a parallel with, you know, um, consumer product marketing. It's not all about selling. A lot of it is about just making people aware that something exists. You know, I can't force you to go to the supermarket and my toothpaste, but I can slowly make you familiar with my brand so that you feel like it's a trustworthy, known thing established in the marketplace and that, uh, over time I can make you aware of the qualities of it, uh, the product and the importance of you choosing it for reasons that are relevant to you. And I suppose all marketing works like that, doesn't it? You know, we, we, we can't get people to act if we haven't kind of pierced their, their awareness. Um, you know, and in the nonprofit space, there's nothing to go to the supermarket to buy, right? There's no toothpaste or soda at the end of it. But what you can do is you can help people realize that they can become the version of themselves that they desire. Their altruistic identity. Okay? You can tap into that, uh, whether it's through advocacy or volunteering and giving, uh, and hey, you will be this kind of person. And if you're this kind of person, maybe you'll feel better about yourself. Maybe you'll be able to live out that thing that you feel so deeply, passionately called to do. Um, so it's very, it's very similar, except there's not a tangible at the end of it. It's an intangible, uh, at the end of it. Oh yeah, no, that's actually a very good point that, you know, we often say in marketing, right? Sell, sell people the future version of themselves that, that has whiter teeth. Or if you're selling a car, you know, that has the idea, um, they might road trip like that really happy looking person in the TV commercial. Um, and so, yeah, that's Interesting that you think like that as well, that you're selling this future version of me that feels good about what I'm doing in my contribution and, uh, you know, being part of the solution and not the problem, et cetera. That's really good.

Speaker B: It's interesting

Speaker A: that, yeah, you have to do that or else you're just kind of, you know, little orphan Oliver. Please, sir, may I have some more. Give us some money to, you know, uh, do something. You have. You have to make it about the audience. You can't make it about the nonprofit. Yeah, I get that. I do get that. Um, so, um, I'm curious then, you know, thinking about how that relates to other types of marketing. Like how. How does it. How does working in house at a, uh, nonprofit differ from working with those organizations as maybe an agency or a consultant? Oh, uh, that's a really good question. I think that working in house is a tremendous thing to do, and I am so grateful for the decades that I was able to spend doing that. Because when you're in house, you are in the trenches. You, uh, eat, sleep, breathe. The mission of that nonprofit, it's really unlike anything else, uh, I've ever done. It is tremendous. At the same time, when you're inside the nonprofit, just like any for profit company, you can't always step back and see the bigger picture because you're living on very small margins, very limited resources and budgets, uh, and often going at a breaking neck pace. Uh, my last in House, I was there for 10 years. It was a humanitarian organization doing a lot of disaster response work around the world. It was like being on a treadmill all the time, from this disaster to that disaster, over and over and over again. When I stepped back from that, as much as I valued the experience, I was able to think more clearly. I was able to see more of what was actually happening in the marketplace than I was in house. I don't ever think one is better than the other. They're just different and give you different vantage points, uh, and points of view. Um, I will say it's a lot less stressful, uh, being on the outside than it is on the inside, though. Oh, that's interesting, because sometimes, you know, in the kind of consumer marketing world, you sometimes hear the opposite. I mean, obviously it's different between company. You know, all companies have different cultures, but in general. Yeah, I mean, it mirrors what you're saying, right? In house, you are completely wrapped up in the mission. Even for a consumer brand, people might not know that, but, um, you know, you might Be working for like a, you know, a sofa brand. But when you're in house, you're just surrounded by the importance of these sofas and how great they are and how proud we are of our heritage. And you get really brainwashed and you really drink the Kool Aid. You kind of have to, don't you? You have to willingly bathe in the Kool Aid because otherwise you can't really, I don't know, get behind it and do the late nights required. Um, but at the same time, yeah, I've. I know a lot of people, myself included, have worked in agencies who would say that that's, that's hard as well, because you're constantly multitasking. Um, and clients expect results quicker. So it's not, you know, there's just a lot of pressure to deliver quickly. Uh, but yeah, you're right. I always advise people to try a bit of both. Yeah. One of the interesting things is the nonprofit space is notoriously slow. They are slow to uptake on many things, and so a big part of our job is actually helping them move at a quicker pace. I'm a big believer that speed to market is very, very, very important,

Speaker B: especially when a newsworthy event happens. And so oftentimes it's us pushing the clients to go faster, not the other way around.

Speaker A: Yes. Interesting. That, uh, um, that's. That, that's good. I think I prefer the sound of that, to be honest. Thinking it through, you know. Well, being chased by clients is stressful. It is stressful. Um, and actually you being brought in to give that kind of urgency and speed and dynamism to things, that sounds. Yeah, it's fun. I like being the one to give people a kick in the pants and to, uh, get things going. Absolutely. Yeah. So when nonprofits come to you, I mean, obviously they come with their most basic problem is we want to bring in more revenue. But what are the types of. Like put a bit more detail on that. What are the types of kind of issues? What are the things that drive them to picking the phone up to call you?

Speaker B: Yeah, so there's a few different things. And I think there's going to be a lot of parallels here to kind of the consumer market or just any kind of, you know, uh, revenue generating, uh, engine. Uh, one is. The main, one is flat revenue. Okay. We have been at the same level for the last three or four years, obviously with kind of global inflation. The same revenue means you actually have less to work with and we don't know how to get unstuck and that unstuck can look like a number of different things. It can. Our story is stuck. We're saying the same thing over and over again, and it's not resonant with people.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: our staff is stuck. We had the same team doing the same thing every year, and it's not moving the needle for us. How do we get our staff unstuck? A lot of times the nonprofit CEO came up on the program side or the product side of the organization. So they are deeply entrenched in how we solve homelessness or how we, you know, reduce, uh, the effects of climate change. They have almost zero background in marketing or advertising or sales, fundraising. And so they don't know how to think about how do I build a three year plan, how do I actually look at the numbers and do ROI calculations and, you know, all of this, uh, so they get stuck there and they say, hey, come in and help us kind of retool this thing and get it going

Speaker A: up and to the right again. So I think there's probably a lot of similarities there, um, between what we do and what you do, Will. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's all the same stuff, isn't it? I, um, mean, that's the thing. It must be. And I get this sense, uh, I've worked with nonprofits and I've always got the sense every time that there's an element of. Yes, people feel like they're saying the same story all the time and they're sort of sick of sound. They're sick of the sound of their own voice. To be brutally honest, that's the sense I get. So out of interest, how do you get people out of that?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think, number one, it's just who is your actual audience? Okay, so this might be kind of basic for some people, but it's the core of any marketing or sales. Who are we actually communicating to and what do they actually care about? What are their problems? Um, their real world, tangible problems, or also what are their philosophical problems? What change do they want to see in the world? Who do they want to be? What type of future do they want for their kids and their grandkids? And if we can tell the story in light of who they are as the audience instead of, you know, hey, we started 40 years ago and we did this, this and that, but we make the story about the audience and what they're trying to do, number one, that freshens things up right away. Now everybody has a hard time with that. Okay. Because shouldn't we be the hero in the story? Shouldn't the, you know, the single mom trying to make ends meet be the hero in the story? Shouldn't the refugee or immigrant be the hero in the story? I get why people say that, but we're not telling the story to them. Whoever we're telling the story to needs to be the central figure or the central character in our story. And so we changed the subject matter. We changed the main focus of the story to be about who we're actually selling to or who we're trying to get to volunteer or advocate on behalf of the mission. And that zhuzhes it up kind of right away for people. Uh, and then we, like any good storyteller, you have to agitate the problem of the person, uh, the main character in the story. And oftentimes we tell our clients, you don't introduce yourself until, you know, two or three paragraphs in if it's written, or, you know, four or five minutes in if you're telling the story. It's all about them at first. And then you let them know how you can help and then call them to action. And when you do that, the audience just gets so much more energy from it. It's like a movie where you can see yourself in the main character with their endearing qualities, with their tragic flaws. You know, all of those things. Or a movie that you have zero way to relate to

Speaker A: the people. One, um, you're gonna lean in and be excited to watch and maybe rewatch. And the other, it might win an Oscar, but you're not downloading it from Netflix anytime soon. Yeah, that's interesting that, um. Have you got any examples that come to mind of nonprofits that have done that? Well, yeah, so many. Okay, so I was with,

Speaker B: um, just this past week, I was with an association of outdoor schools. Um, and these outdoor schools are all embedded in the American national park system. So these amazing national parks, which all of us over here are really proud of, it's actually the most bipartisan, supported thing in the United States right now is our national parks. Okay. Um. Uh, which is saying a lot. These schools all talked about in their marketing, what they did. We take kids, we bring them on five day, four night overnights in the parks. We do appreciative inquiry learning. We do social emotional learning. Uh, we're, you know, doing all of this. This was the story they were telling. Okay. What we did over the course of a few days together was we completely changed that, because the average person is not hearing that. The average person might be like, oh, that's really interesting. I'm glad that you do that. But there's no urgency that's created by it. So we change their story. And it started out with, you know, America's national parks are a treasure, A, uh, birthright that we all love and enjoy so much. In fact that 300 million of us, literally the entire population, visited one last year. Wow. Uh, but do you know what? The national parks are struggling with? A 40% increase in attendance or visitation to the parks. Their budgets have actually been decreased. And do you know what? Young people are actually not getting there at the same rates as baby boomers are getting there. And those same young people, they are going through a very hard time right now. Four in ten say that they are chronically depressed or lonely.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: They spend eight hours a day on screens and only 30 minutes a day outside. It's gotten so bad that they actually don't know how to have face to face conversations with each other. Do you know what, we can actually help change that. And then we walk through what they actually did. So it changed the story from being all about them to, hey, there's this thing that we all love. There's this problem that we all feel we can do something about it. And we, um, focus grouped it and people went from, oh, ah, that's a nice thing to oh my goodness, how can I help you do that? It changed the dynamic like that.

Speaker A: Oh, that's a good point. That isn't it? Because I think that's where a lot of, uh, well, brands and nonprofits trip up, where they get the positive response. Oh, that's, yeah, that's nice. But it doesn't convert. It doesn't have that urgency to push people into action. That's a whole other level of motivation that you've got to give people, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's, I can think a lot of things are nice, Will. I think, I think, you know, that car is nice. I think that house, but I'm not going to buy them. Uh, but there's no urgency. I have, I have cars that work. I have a house that I love. Um, that's nice. Or oh, isn't that neat? Does it sell anything? Okay. Or if it does, it only sells it on the margin. The we need to do something about that right now is where we need to get people. And especially in today's attention deficit world that we live in, if you don't get people to take action within minutes of them hearing your pitch or hearing your story or making that mental decision to take, uh, the Next step, they're gonna forget about you by dinner time because you're getting 10,000 other marketing messages throughout the day. So it needs to go from hey, that's neat, to I am going to do something about this. Tell me what that next step should be. Uh, and it needs to do it in about 30 seconds.

Speaker A: Mhm. No pressure. Right? Okay. And do you think as a layer on top of that you say there's an attention deficit, Is there a financial deficit? We hear so much in our cultures that there's a cost of living crisis, that people have less spare money than the previous generations, uh, had, and people can't buy a house as easily and things like that. And so frugality has, uh, seemed to play a bigger role. I mean, do you think you're, are you facing that as well?

Speaker B: I think there's multiple simultaneous truths in what you're asking about. Okay, so one, the cost of living has skyrocketed since 2020 in the pandemic, and all the effects of that, um, and it continues to skyrocket with the cost of, uh, gas, diesel, you know, travel.

Speaker A: Uh,

Speaker B: so that's all very true, but some other things are also true. Okay, A few weeks ago, Apple unveiled the latest iPhone, and it cost about $2,000 retail.

Speaker A: The top one's $3,000. The one with the biggest memory, the iPhone.

Speaker B: Okay, for $3,000, how many millions of the same people who are saying it's really expensive to do these things right now are gonna go drop 2,000 or $3,000 on a new phone when the one that they have is perfectly fine?

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: that's also true. I say all of that to say that the amount of money being given to charity continues to increase every year, even as we hear about all of these different things. So last year, uh, at least in, uh, the United states, Americans gave $650 billion away to charity.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: 650. That's not a small market. Okay. Um, now it's true that the wealthiest people are giving a larger percentage of that and the middle and lower strata, uh, of the economy, and

Speaker A: that's $2,000 per person on average, isn't it? But yeah, it's generated largely by huge, uh, philanthropists and corporate social responsibility programs perhaps.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, the CSR programs are actually diminishing, at least in the United States, because the politics of it is no longer good. If one party is in power, they're going to ding you for one thing, the other party, they're going to ding you for something else. And people are saying, screw it, we're just going to keep our money. Like we don't need to give it away, um, or we'll be very quiet about it. But in general, kind of middle class, upper middle class people tend to still drive, uh, the philanthropy economy, uh, here. So I say all of that to say it's a very complicated picture. All of these things are true simultaneously. Things are more expensive, people continue to give. Um, and that gives me hope, uh, about this in that people genuinely want to help change the world and make it a better place. And if you communicate with them the right way, there's a good chance you could be successful in it. Yes, absolutely. Um, so I mean that's a good example of how, you know, we hear the words. I've been hearing the word

Speaker A: storytelling for a very long time in marketing and often I've never quite been sure what it means in a lot of contexts, but of course it's very clear what that means here. Um, you know, you're really having to kind of tell the story of something to then motivate people to really want to do something about it and be part of, be someone who can stand up and say, I was part of solving that. And I think that's uh, really nice all around that, that I get that, that, that,

Speaker B: that works for me. Um, okay, so how do you find out what people care about? What kind of audience research do you do to sort of get that information? The most interesting thing there are. People ask me this question literally every day. Mhm. And the thing that I say is ask them. Yeah. Fundraising is a very relational thing. Okay. And every organization that I work with, they, they have had some success in it or they wouldn't be in existence. Okay. Somebody somewhere along the value chain has said, I believe in this, I'm going to give you some money to, to get going, work, to sustain yourselves. All you have to do is ask them. Okay. M. And the reason that I think this is slightly different than kind of the for profit space is everybody needs toothpaste. Okay. Um, not everybody needs to give. And so when you ask people why they give, there's a deeper personal connection to it because they've chosen to do something that they don't actually have to do. It's not something they need to get through the day. And so when you ask them whether it's one on one, whether it's in a focus group, whether it's in an email survey, those are the three main ways that we do it. They're going to tell you because they care so deeply about it that they chose to write a check to help you do the thing. And you ask them what they care about and they're just going to be, uh, the floodgates will open and they'll just tell you because they are choosing to make this a part of who they are as an individual. Okay. And I always say you have to start because what we just talked about, the wealthier folks have more money. They make a bigger difference to the bottom line, uh, than people giving a hundred dollars, you know, a year. Go to your major donors and your foundations and say, why do you care about this work?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and then just spend an hour asking them questions about who they are, why they care about this, the experiences they have that have shaped it and shape their point of view. And then do the same thing with focus groups if you're mid level donors and email surveys with the others. And then there's all kinds of things, you know, look alike audiences and you know,

Speaker A: um,

Speaker B: all of that that you can do afterwards. But start with who you have and ask them why and what they care about. And then, um, let that shape your future questions that you ask in different ways.

Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. That's, um, simple, isn't it? At the end of the day? Um, okay, I like that. So we've got the understanding of the audience, we've got our story. Um, what channels do you think work best for nonprofit marketing? I know that's a bit of a big question, or rather talk me through

Speaker B: how best to use the main channels. In

Speaker A: your experience,

Speaker B: the best channel that is going to raise people the most money. I think this is true in the for profit space is your, what I call depth relationships. Who are your biggest donors? Who are your biggest purchasers, your biggest buyers, and how do you take them deep? And that is always an individual relationship with actual real people. Okay. In this digital screen world, real people can actually differentiate you from everybody else out there. Anybody can send an email, everybody can put a Google Ad or a net ad up there right now, but not everybody's gonna get out there and take you to lunch. Not everybody's gonna get out there and, you know, pick up the phone and actually call you. That is the number one thing that gets people to respond is a real human. Okay. Then the question becomes, well, how do you get those relationships with real humans? Okay. And that schedule. Yeah. At scale, that's where the digital comes in. Um, and I've seen everything work in the U.S. actually, this is true globally. I did a project on this Last week, direct mail, actual physical mail in people's mailbox still has a higher response rate than any digital ads in converting gifts.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And the first time gifts that come in digitally are, uh, between $60 and $80. The first time gifts that come in because of direct mail acquisition are on average $120. So nearly double. Okay. There is something tactile, there is something people like about something being present in the physical real world.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: We also see tons of success with Google Ads. Okay. Both native ads as well as, um, and this isn't relevant for the for profits, but Google has something called the Google Ad Grant. So every nonprofit out there is eligible for 10,000 free Google advertising dollars a month. Okay. So 120 grand a year, uh, if you set it up the right way. We have seen tons of success, uh, blending Google native ads with the Google Ad Grant, uh, for our clients. Okay,

Speaker A: nice.

Speaker B: And you put it out there. Um, typical stuff. Kind of go to a lead magnet landing page, exchange something of value for them. I am not a huge fan of meta ads in the nonprofit space for fundraising acquisition. I just don't see it working. Okay. No one logs on to Instagram or Facebook saying, let me find something to buy. Okay. Um, however, we have found tremendous success on meta ads for advocacy work. Tremendous success. So this client in Yosemite national park that I referenced earlier on, uh, Google Ads did not work for this, you know, stop taking over the park. But meta ads worked tremendously well and had like a $0.51 conversion rate on it for every new person that came in. So $0.51 for a new person that took action, that you get their email address, that you put them through a welcome series and then, you know, ask them to contribute in other ways afterwards. That's a pretty darn good spend right there if you

Speaker A: ask. Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so that organization has nearly doubled their list in about four weeks because of that. Um, so I think it really depends what you're trying to do and figuring out how to blend this all together in a way that makes economic sense, uh, for the organization.

Speaker A: Hello. A quick reminder from me that if you're enjoying our podcast series, why not become a member of the DMI so that you can enjoy loads more. More content from webinars and case studies to toolkits and more real life insights from the world of digital marketing.

Speaker B: Head to digitalmarketinginstitute.com forward slash, head of the game. Sign up for free. Now back to the podcast. It's interesting with Google Ads, isn't it? Because how do you use Google Ads for. For a non profit? Because people aren't really. Or are they? I don't know. Uh, people aren't googling the kind of stuff that, like with purchasing, it's easy. If I'm selling white sofas, I just buy against the keyword white sofas.

Speaker A: And, uh,

Speaker B: people who want

Speaker A: a

Speaker B: white sofa see my

Speaker A: ads.

Speaker B: How does that work with nonprofits, do you think? Okay, let's take a really real example that's very concrete. We'll all remember the Jeffrey Epstein situation. Right? Any trafficked people. We, uh, have multiple clients that were working in the human trafficking prevention space. Okay. So we put ads up against Jeffrey Epstein's name because everybody was googling, like, who is this guy? Okay. So we took that news moment. People weren't thinking, how do we stop people from being trafficked in Thailand and Cambodia and Nepal and Uganda. Okay. They were just thinking, you know, Jeffrey Epstein, let me learn more about this. But we put up ads about prevent this from stopping, prevent this from happening again. So every time people were, you know, doom scrolling and searching, you know, this guy, they would see prevent this from happening again messages. Okay. Worked tremendously well. Um, uh, last month, the Nepal flood happened. Remember the glacier broke. That whole river of water like 10 stories high went through the valleys. Four of our clients were responding to that disaster and people were googling it, searching for videos of it. Right. Which is kind of a weird thing that people do, but it's what people do. And so we put ads up against that. Respond now help today. Um, for that.

Speaker A: That's interesting. So, yes, news. Very highly topical things that people are searching for. That's smart. That makes sense. I like it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then in a non news example, uh, we work a lot in conservation. People Google, where do I go hiking in this spot? Where do I go fishing? Where's a great picnic spot? We put ads up there, the 10 best hiking spots here. Um, and then people, you know, fall in love with the organization because they helped them actually do something they were looking to do. Like it. So this. Yeah, their search intent wasn't really to help or that wasn't in their mind, but you are targeting people who obviously are a cohort of people that clearly care about that thing in some way. Um, and of course, you only pay for the clicks

Speaker A: in

Speaker B: any way. So, um, that's, I can imagine.

Speaker A: Very. And just, uh, close that loop for me. What's on the other side of that? If it's not a daft question, are you generally asking for donations up Front or is it more of a lead magnet, Just data capture kind of. Uh,

Speaker B: oh, 100% lead magnet data capture. Okay. If you just ask people to give, you're going to have like a 0.001 response rate on that. Okay. But you're asking for an email address. Hey, we're going to send you this thing, um, uh, and then go through a pretty decent, you know, seven parts email welcome series. And then what we have clients do is figure out who's actually opening and clicking on those emails. And then we're going to do something of value, a ah, sticker for your car that shows you're this kind of person. I support the national parks, you know, something like that. Um, and then you then at that point they're, they're part of you and you can start doing your other marketing to them.

Speaker A: Yeah, great. Okay. So you just want to start the relationship and sort of have a way of keeping that relationship alive. The contact information, the contact contact with them that you can then develop. Um,

Speaker B: I

Speaker A: get it, I get it. That's very smart. Um, the other big digital channel that we talk about a lot is

Speaker B: social.

Speaker A: How

Speaker B: do you

Speaker A: think? I mean, I get

Speaker B: a lot.

Speaker A: I do courses about social media and

Speaker B: I help, um, I'm m currently

Speaker A: helping

Speaker B: a non profit with their socials and

Speaker A: they really struggle with social. I've got to say, it's very common. How do you think social can work? Well, for nonprofits,

Speaker B: you have to understand, number one, how the algorithm works. Um, and in the nonprofit space, people don't like how the algorithm works. They don't like that it taps into a lot of times negative things, uh, that attracts people, um, that's how they work. We have to exploit that. Okay, so if you're trying to solve something, tap into some of that negativity, uh, or anger, and then try to convert it. Um, so I see that when people are posting just about themselves and hey, we did this, no one's following when people are posting. This awful thing is happening in the world and we need to do something about it, it gets a lot more, you have to be on social, I think a lot more dramatic, uh, than you are on your other channels. And you have to be really focused on how do you capture attention in literally 0.1 seconds if people are scrolling on their phones through this? Uh, some people do it really well. I think that socials do much better for brand building than for conversion, for sales or for, um, donation. It's really hard, I think, to convert from socials, but I think you can build an audience, um, and that eventually, over time. And time is a long time horizon here, 6, 12, 18 months, you can slowly convert some of them to become givers or buyers. Yeah, uh, I fully agree with you there. I mean, yeah, I mean, the way

Speaker A: the

Speaker B: algorithms work

Speaker A: as well, that I

Speaker B: think a

Speaker A: lot

Speaker B: of people

Speaker A: don't understand is that it's not about followers anymore.

Speaker B: And so

Speaker A: it's not about building followers that you can then talk to, because

Speaker B: you

Speaker A: can't even talk to them anyway, once you've got followers.

Speaker B: And you've got to understand that every piece of content lives or dies based on its own merits. Right? And the algorithm could show it to a million people, could show it to 10 people, and it doesn't really matter how many followers you've got. I mean, I would say, you know, in my experience, it doesn't always have to be rage bait or m. Wildly negative. I mean, that is one way for sure, you know, to jump out of the phone at people and say, like, our national parks are burning and we've got to, you know, um, fine. But

Speaker A: there are other things, actually. There's. People love oases of calm in their feed, actually, you know, like a nice close voice and like, you know, let's. Let me just, uh. Let's take a mindful minute walking around this trail. I'm going to take you through, through this trail. And because I'm into a lot of hiking stuff, and

Speaker B: I think that's actually. Right. I think that was more my negative bias of social.

Speaker A: I just want to reassure listeners that there are actually really nice ways to do it, which, again, are, uh, a lovely way to sort of draw people in.

Speaker B: And then before they know it, they've spent time with us, because when they've spent more than 10 seconds with you, then they. They, uh, are there with you and they're on the journey with you. And also the algorithm sees that, uh, and it shows more of their content to those people, even if they didn't follow. And then they get to know you. And then over time, yes, they may find out about some of the commercial things that I do, or in your client's case, the ways it can help. But you have to let that come later. It's like real relationships,

Speaker A: right? You can't just walk into a bar and say, oh, hi, will you come and live with me? You know, you have to. Right? You know,

Speaker B: you have to

Speaker A: talk and get to know and understand. And, um, I just think a lot of marketers I meet just can't wrap their heads around that they want results

Speaker B: right away,

Speaker A: too quickly, you know, and I think that that's, that's for me, that's the opportunity. But it's really interesting to hear your take on that for

Speaker B: sure. You said something that I think most people don't realize, even people at agencies and in marketing. Okay, the scroll is really important. Even if somebody never likes or sends the heart emoji or follows you, the algorithm is actually tracking do you stop scrolling and for how long on that piece of content? Okay. Um, and that's really hard for people because there's no metric that you can track. How long did somebody. They don't let us know that. Right. Uh, the social media companies. And that is really hard for people to understand. But you can see it in your own feeds and if you even once kind of hover on something without taking action, 20 seconds later, you're gonna see a lot more of that stuff. Um, and people need to play to that, even if they're not seeing the likes and the clicks and the follows. Um, are people hovering here for a second or two because then they're gonna see much more of your stuff later on. 100%. And

Speaker A: that's how you build momentum. That's how you grow.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: you know, every creator and brand that I know has done that successfully. Um, and that is the win is getting people to stop scrolling. But again, that's, you know, if you're building awareness of something you want people to care about, I mean, you can't see it per person, but you can see it for the whole video. You can see the retention

Speaker B: graph

Speaker A: right in your analytic. And I think is one of the most important metrics. If you can see that a lot of people are still watching

Speaker B: at the point where you mention certain things, then you should be reporting that back. You know, uh, find a way to report that back. Cause I do think that's important. Um, that's what we're trying to do. Right? We want, we just want that proof that people are getting the message. Um, okay, so we've talked a lot about top and middle of funnel here. We've talked a lot about capturing new, uh, people who weren't even thinking about supporting us, about how we start to convert them and nurture that

Speaker A: relationship. I want

Speaker B: to talk a

Speaker A: bit about retention, but first, uh, just about conversions. So, you know, what's, what tactics or what kind of channels do you find,

Speaker B: uh, really work for getting people to part with money? One is the face to face.

Speaker A: This

Speaker B: is for your high net worth donors and it can't be. I would like you to think about and consider and you know, all the, you know, maybe someday could you think about and spend a few minutes pondering if you might be able to give us it that. People do that all the time and it's absolutely ridiculous. Givers respond to. If you're a giver, Will, hey, Will, will you consider a gift in this range and giving it to us in this time frame? Wow. Very specific. They don't do that on your first date. Like you said, you walk into the bar, hey, you know, come home with me. Uh, no, don't do that. But, um, when they are ready for it, when you've had those, you know, qualifying and journey conversations as part of your sales process. Um, very specific numbers. If not a specific number, arrange and then a time frame.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: People need something to respond to. Okay. Socially, hey, let's get together and have coffee sometime. Everybody says yes to that, but it never actually happens. Okay. Hey, Will, what about next Thursday at, ah, 10:30 in the morning? Can we get coffee? It forces you to say yes or no

Speaker A: to it.

Speaker B: Okay. And if you say no, it's actually no, I can't do 1030, but can we do 1130 instead? It actually gets people to the point of decision. You have to do the same thing. So face to face is really important. The other two are, um, your direct mail appeal and again, a specific number. Will you give $120 now? Very specific. Uh, people respond much better to that. And then email, um, kind of the email appeal, give now button. People respond very well to that. Um, also, give now buttons on websites work incredibly well. Ah, once you've agitated the problem and put it on a landing pa, uh, for something, move people through the funnel. Uh, those are the four main ways that we see people converting right now.

Speaker A: Cool. Yeah, interesting. Um, and then in terms of retention, so if I've given, are there specific marketing tactics that work really well in terms of like getting me to maybe set up a recurring payment or just to give again? Like, what are the kind of key retention tactics?

Speaker B: Well, first let me say the nonprofit space has a retention crisis. Okay. Um, so 45% of a donor file of an active, you know, customer or donor base will give again next year. 45%. It's incredibly, incredibly low. But then if you double click on that number, only 11% of first time donors will give again. 11%. Ah, if you were a pizza shop and only 11% of your first time pizza buyers came again, you're not in business, you know, I'm

Speaker A: worried about the quality of my pizzas. Yeah,

Speaker B: it's a really bad pizza, you know, at that, at that point. But a second time donor, a donor that gives a second gift, they will retain at 70%.

Speaker A: Okay, so there's a, there's a real second donation problem there. How, um, what, what, what is the problem? Just, Just explain why is that. Why is this.

Speaker B: Yeah, when you, when you do the research, there's three things. Uh, one is this a life event happens, you know, they die, they lose a job, they move. We can't control that. The other two, we can completely control. Okay, number, uh, two, no one let them know where their money went. No one let them know where you, what you do with the money and the impact that it brought about in the world. Okay?

Speaker A: And

Speaker B: that number three, they forgot about you when you do surveys. Hey, why did you lapse? I didn't lapse. I gave. I just recently gave. Hey, are you aware that your last gift was three years ago? I literally thought it was, like, just this past spring. People don't think about you as much as you think about them. Okay? And we can solve those things for clients who set up the basic, most simple, you know, automated welcome series when somebody gives the first gift. And the goal of that series is to get them to give a second gift within 30 to 60 days. Okay? That's what all the data shows, that after 30 days, the tail just drops off the graph. Okay? Um, an automatic welcome series. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Like, effusive in your thanks to them. Also sending a handwritten thank you note. Also making a phone call just letting people know that you appreciate what they did. That saying, hey, you gave. We've combined your generosity with that of others. And here are the three things that happened in the real world because of what you did. Hey, will you give again when you do that second time, donations skyrocket. And then what you do after the second time donation is you enroll them in a monthly giving product. Okay? Hey, uh, I can tell you love this. You want refugees to be served. You want the environment to be stewarded. You don't want people to be living on the streets. Okay? We have this community for you. Not a product for you, not a platform for you. We have a community for you of people just like you, who care about this, this, and this, who want to see ABC in the world. And it's $60 a month. Will you join? And if you set that up the right way, a lot of people say yes to that. We Live in a subscription society now. Right. Amazon, Netflix, you know, all the different things that we're subscribing to. Why? Absolutely. Put social change into their subscription

Speaker A: mindset, and

Speaker B: it

Speaker A: comes off the credit card or bank statement once a month.

Speaker B: And those people stay, on average for seven years. Getting to a nonprofit.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, all this stuff you're saying is, um, I'm thinking about charities that I support and like, yeah, the good ones. Some of the good ones are doing this. Um, and it really does work. Definitely the profusive thank yous and the reminders of where the money's going. Um, a charity I subscribe to does that really well. And I would never cancel it because it's like, it just seems too important.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely

Speaker A: bad all the time. You know, why would I cancel it? Whereas if it did, they went completely kind of quiet on me. It would be a lot easier to cancel, let's face it. Afraid. Interesting. Um, that's absolutely fascinating that. Love. Love hearing about that. Um, okay, so we sadly, nearing the end of our time together. I could talk to you for hours about this stuff, honestly. So you got such a great way of sort of explaining stuff and a great clarity around it. I really appreciate that. I do. Um, there's so much more we could talk about, but one, um, thing we like to do is ask our guests to wrap up. You might be repeating yourself a little bit. Don't worry about that. Just to sort of condense and wrap up. Um, three tips, three top tips. Okay? For anybody who's just got a job at a nonprofit doing marketing, who's been doing marketing for years at a nonprofit, and they just want to try three things, um, to get them out in, you know, try, try, try and get some better results. What would those top tips be from you?

Speaker B: My first tip to a new person at a nonprofit, um, is you are not your audience. You are not creating content that you resonate with. You're creating content that your audience resonates with. Do not put yourself in the, in the driver's seat, you know, so to speak. You need to figure out who your audience actually is, what they care about. I see so often, uh, it's kind of a joke, right? Because the nonprofit space doesn't pay well. The marketing team is usually 24, 25 year olds, and they're creating content that they and their friends like. But the audience is, you know, 50 year old, you know, soccer moms and dads. Okay. And there's just a 30 year gaps. Figure out who your audience is and what they like, number two, are you being direct? And what you're asking of them, are you being crystal, crystal, crystal clear? And then number three, are you thanking and welcoming people into the fold? I don't care if you get 10,000 new donors. If they're not staying with you, it's not worthwhile long term. And you've just thrown away all the money and time and effort to get those 10,000 donors. Have your process mapped out in great detail. What happens when somebody gives a gift, what triggers right away, what's three days later, what happens automatically? What do you need to process as a human in terms of thanking notes and phone calls? Have that mapped out in excruciating detail because that's actually going to help you grow year over year instead of going back and starting from zero next year again.

Speaker A: Nice, nice. Thank you.

Speaker B: That's great. Really, really good. Um, okay, well, my last question before you go is where can people find out more about what you're working on and maybe connect with you online? Yeah, there's two places. One, I am on LinkedIn. It is the only social platform I'm on. Just look for me. James meisner. Uh, on LinkedIn, I respond to every, uh, direct message I get and I post every day. The second is our website, thekeypostgroup.com and it's K I P O S thekeypostgroup.com

Speaker A: awesome, James, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time and, uh, hope to chat to you again sometime soon. Thanks a lot.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, thanks for having me on.

Speaker A: If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And for more information about transforming your marketing career through certified online training at the digitalmarketinginstitute. Com. Thanks for listening.