Frank Ricciardi of Maavee on Wellbeing at Work

Speaker A: Thanks for being here today and joining my conversation with Frank Ricciardi, founder and CEO of mavi. As you'll soon learn, Frank is extraordinarily committed to promoting well being, not only at work, but in our day to day lives. He also has unique perspectives on the role employers, um, can and arguably should be playing in promoting well being. He also goes into Mavi itself, a marketplace of curated well being solutions. It, uh, creates community and leverages AI to surface the most appropriate products and services for an individual's needs. I found this discussion fascinating. I learned a lot about Frank's inspirations in forming Mavi. They're rooted in compassion for others and compassion for self. So again, thank you for being here and I hope you enjoy.

Speaker B: Hi, I'm here with Frank Ricciardis, founder and CEO of Mavi. Frank, how you doing, Al?

Speaker C: I'm great, super, um, glad to be here. I always love the opportunity to talk about the future with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, likewise. And I'm so excited about this project that you've kicked off. We're both committed to, to well being in all facets of life. You know, financial well being, physical well being, spiritual well being. So if you would please introduce yourself and share a little bit about what you're doing with Mavi.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, Frank Richardi, technology executive in the SaaS world. My entire career spent a very long time, uh, in HR technology or people technology, as I say. And um, in 2018 I decided to make a pivot and move to my own passion, building a SaaS company. And uh, that happens to be focused on well being. So we're in the middle of, uh, a really interesting project. Uh, you know, like any big vision, we're trying to save the world and uh, we're just scratching the surface. So I'm really excited to talk about it today.

Speaker B: Well, hey, likewise, because again, this is something that affects all of us as human beings. And we've heard time and again, hey, do more with less. There's financial constraints that are hitting organizations which in turn impact the well being of individuals at work. Obviously, during COVID in the wake of COVID we're trying to figure out, you know, where we actually work and the distractions and all that. So, you know, wellbeing has been top line. However, the investments that many organizations have made in well being have kind of waned over the last, you know, 12, 24 months. So can you talk about, you know, your view of the well being market and specifically how it's impacting workers here in the United States?

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. And you're spot on. You know, during COVID everybody was rushing to spend money on how do we keep people connected, engaged, well, stable. And after Covid, that slowed a lot with employers. I actually expected to open up significantly in 2025 and beyond. And I'll explain why. But where it didn't slow is with you and I as consumers, as human beings. And just to give a little context here, I fundamentally believe that prevention is one of the greatest societal challenges of our time, especially in America. We've got a lot of health problems, chronic disease, it's at an all time high. And the healthcare system, as you know, is, is really architected for sick care. So healthcare is not really positioned well to win the, uh, what I call the well care game. The reason is, is that you and I don't rely on the healthcare system to keep us well. You're not running to, no offense to Blue Shield or to UnitedHealthcare to say keep me well. You're hoping to. You're just glad they're there for when you get sick. And um, healthcare is not gonna win the well care game. And I, we fundamentally believe that a consumer approach will win the well care game. And I, it's sort of already been proven, Al, in that we've taken our well being into our own hands, which has created a $6.8 trillion global industry. And by the way, it's expected to be 8/trillion by 2028. You know, and you think about that and you're like, but wait, there's inflation, there's uh, some say we're in a recession, the world's blowing up. But we are speaking with our money and we are prioritizing how we spend. We're spending it on our wellbeing and it is growing at an exceptional rate with no end in sight. So that's the way we really look at this problem is how do we help what is already being done by us, by our employers, by our health plans, and even by the consumer solutions or brands that are creating really amazing products and services and experiences to help us be well. How do we bring all of that together, sort of harmonize it in a, in an ecosystem that really fuels both the experience we have in our lifelong quest to be well, but also how we can be incentivized and rewarded for doing so. And so that's really the premise or the setup for what we're doing.

Speaker B: Well, you know, thanks for sharing and uh, I want to get right into where the rubber meets the road here because There are some CEOs and executive teams that say, hey, we're an employer. It's not our responsibility for the well being of, uh, our employees. It's actually the individual's responsibility for their

Speaker A: own own well being.

Speaker B: And sometimes they leave it at that. In other cases, they say, well, we will enable you to have well being through resources that we provide in the workplace itself or financially. And you're now offering a platform where employers can actually partner and enable individuals to stay healthy. So can you explain the Mavi value proposition in the context of what I just set up?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a good tee up. But let me, if you don't mind, let me set some context for the word you used, well being or wellness. We believe those are two different things, by the way. So let's kind of, let's put a foundation down. You know, I think wellness and well being are overused words. You know, Mavi really intends to help reclaim that word back and give it real meaning. Everybody says wellness. I mean, if you go to buy a car today, it's a wellness that the interior is set up for your well being and it makes you less stressed about what's going on in the outside world, which is amazing. But everyone's a wellness company today. And so we have to reframe the word. You know, Mavi really believes that wellness is the journey, not the destination. Well being is an aspirational place that we all want to be. But let's think about this. This, uh, this hyper personal. Yours is different than mine. It lasts a lifetime. It's constantly changing and fluid depending on your, your needs, your interests, your context, your environment. You never really get there unless you become Buddha or die. And you're probably going to die first, I mean, in all reality. But the intention is great. And in order to navigate that journey, you have to do a bunch of things. You have to explore, you have to discover, you have to connect, you have to, uh, engage, you have to shop, shop well to be well. You have to give, give back, you have to learn, you have to earn. Made all of these things sound like life. So we believe that the journey or aspiration to be well is, is in fact life. It's why we're here. It's no accident that Mavi is called my life in France. It means my life in French. And so we're really trying to connect this aspiration to be well to living a very happy, productive and fulfilled life. And you have to give attention to the whole person. You know, it is, as you said, your body Your mind, your soul, it's your work, it's your money, it's planet. You know, we can no longer disconnect the world, our well being, from the world in which we live. And so we think it's part of your wellness journey to be a productive contributor and responsible citizen in the world. And ultimately, like life, it's about stringing together a set of mindful moments that lead to this happy, productive and fulfilled life and service oriented life. And so what we do is enable what we call major stakeholder groups. Your employer being one of them, your health plan being other. Eventually even the government, you know, government cares that we are living longer, working more, paying taxes, you know, us being unwell is not good for America. And uh, this is obviously a timeline. We're not, we're not engaged with all these major stakeholder groups yet, but also the brands, as I said, bringing all these together to share the responsibility of us being well. And so go back to your employer question because that is where we started out, is offering our solution to employers to support employee well being. And I've uh, talked to hundreds of employers and so when I say, what are you doing to support well being? Some will say not enough. And some will say, we do this, we do this, we do this, we do this, we do this, this, we do this, this. And when you say how are this and this and this and this going? They say it's going great. But how do I increase engagement? Read not going great. And no offense, it's all well intended investment. However, the punchline is you have to give employees choice about what they need in the moment to be well. And the choice is often tactical. It is not. You can do strategic, programmatic things, uh, up here where you reinforce your values and you set culture and you, you invest in programs and activities that align to those values and culture. That's top down, but wellness happens bottom up. And they, what we do is help them meet in the middle. So essentially, if I can just kind of sum it up as to what we provide, the value proposition today is simply a way for the employees to choose what they need in the moment and acknowledge or offer the agency to the, to the employee to make a good choice for them. And I'll give you a really good powerful story in my opinion. Um, you know, we ask our users who, I would say 50% are employees at the moment and 50% are direct consumers. But we ask our employee, we had been asking our employee, uh, users, what do they think, what else do, what do they want? How's Mavi serving them. What else do they want? So we get on the phone with this guy. His name's Rick. He lives in New Jersey. And Rick's maybe 30 years old, 29 years old. And we get on a call just like this. And I'm on the call, and I say, hey, Rick, what do you think of Mavi? It's given to him. Um, it's by his employer. And he's like, this kid did not skip a beat. He's like, I gotta tell you, I would never use this app. And we were like, whoa, what do you mean? He's like, I'm just not that guy. You know, Like, I, um, golf. And that's it. I don't really spend money on my wellbeing. It's just I get joy out of golf, and that's it. He said, but my employer gave me $300, and I found three things. And he pulls out this back pillow from behind him, and it's got micro needles on it. And he said, this thing saves my life. He said, it kind of hurts. It kind of feels good, but it reminds me to push into it. And I sit up straight because I have back problems. So we think this is a great story we tell the employer. And the employer says to us, without disclosing Rick's name, that I just did to thousands of people. Uh, the employer said I would spend money on that day. Like, I don't know that Rick needs the back pillow. And I don't have the resources or the time to find out, but I care. And so that's the. That's the problem we solve for the employer at the moment is let the employee choose. Now, just one more thing I want to say is, you know, I didn't. Well, I didn't really tell you what Mavi is in its holistic form. So do you want me to jump into that right now?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, please. No. And I love that story. Let me. Before you jump in there, just quick story on that. If just to play that back, put a point on it. So I, as an individual, have to. Your point earlier. Agency on what I want to choose, and my employer cares. I'm now owning what is going to be good for me. My employer is not dictating it. However, my employer is resourcing me to go get what I need for me.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker B: So. And I can help set a priority because there are other options on the Mavi site, and.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker B: Is that right?

Speaker C: That's right. And so let me tell you what the App is think of it as your. And nothing like this exists. It is your personal hub for your wellness journey. So what's in the hub? Well, we think that you need certain things to navigate your journey. You need media and content to educate, inform and most importantly spark your curiosity. So back to Rick. Rick's curiosity was sparked because of some media that was in the, in the app and um, and it led him to a wellness moment that that actually mattered for him. So it's media and content to inform, educate and inspire. It's community for connection and support and it's commerce. The ability to shop well, to be well or said differently, a marketplace, highly curated. The very of the very best wellness products and services on the planet. And experiences by the way, 1650 of them today, no end in sight. In a almost $7 trillion industry. There's a lot of stuff we can curate when we curate al very importantly back to this notion that you know, we want to do good in the world as well or and help you do good in the world as a user. We are, we have a methodology that ensures that our brand partners are, have a demonstrated commitment to society, to the planet and to you, the consumer. So um, these are, we call it our for good methodology. And so it's, it's not Amazon for Wellness. It is invitation only marketplace. And, and then we layer in features to keep you engaged and nudged along the way. One of those features is the ability to earn money. Um, and there is a laundry list of features that we are going to be bringing into the experience to really keep you connected. And so when you bring all those things together, it's just a new way to experience your own personal journey. And so what do the employers do? Well there. This is not a solution built for the employer. This is a solution built for Frank and Al. However, there is a set of functionality that the employer can use, one of which is a digital wallet where they simply put money for you to spend on your well being. Thus the agency to choose.

Speaker B: Yeah, I so love what you're sharing and obviously we connected beforehand on this and as I think about this, not only for myself but I think about for my kids and those I care about in my life. You know, all kinds of. Yes, because we're get overwhelmed by content, much of which isn't either good or it's distracting. And even if it's good, how is it actionable? You know, somebody might be selling me a course here when you know, might be thousands of dollars which might be great, great. But is that the most appropriate thing for me at this point in time. And thus how do I decide what are the most, um, effective levers for my own well being? And so can you speak to when somebody enters, Mavi, what do they experience? What do they go through to audit, if you will, their own personal well being and find different ways in which they can act on it?

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, let me start by saying we started out with the things you expect in your real day to day life. So I always love to give this example. We want you, uh, I mean, we're the first ones to profess digital detox. Uh, we're not going to win that game, you know, so we enable it. What do we mean by that? We enable you to doom scroll about your wellbeing. Wouldn't you rather someone be doom scrolling about their wellbeing and learning something in 30 seconds by literally just scrolling through reels and stopping on the one that like, sparks their interest? And I'll give you a great example. I mean, this sparked my interest and changed my life. Beautiful piece of jewelry hangs around my neck. What is it? It's a breathwork tube. It's always with me, the guy who invented it. We know our brand partners intimately. They're actually providing educational reels that you can do scroll through in our app. But the guy who invented it was having severe anxiety for the majority of his life, therapist after therapist, drug after drug, and finally met a therapist who said, hey, Todd, look, I want you to, we're going to wean you off the drugs and we are going to get the little straws they put in your drink at the bar that you can't suck through. They're too thin, cut them in half, put them in your pocket, and every time you feel like you're going to be anxious, pop it in your mouth, breathe into your nose, breathe out through the straw for two minutes, Save the guy's life. Not on drugs. Doesn't sit, you know, like, and invented. He's like, how can I bring this to the masses? That story, in my opinion, is very important. I connected with it, I resonated. It resonated with me. I finally met the guy live and like, I have a bromance with the guy because he just believes so much in what he's doing. And that passion matters to you and I as consumers. That's why a consumer forward approach is really important. Because there's no one better at connecting with us than brands. So we curate those brands. We don't let anyone help you doom, um, scroll. But we're selective about it and so that's one way you can discover. Another way you can discover is to go to the AI companion. We call it Vidi, which actually means lives in Italian. And so you can interact with Vidi and say, hey, I'm interested in Adaptogens, or I don't sleep well. And you get into this dialogue. And then it will recommend products and services if you want. And I actually have another personal story, by the way. I use this when I type because I don't know if you know this, but most of us stop breathing when we're typing, which is not good. When you stop breathing, your, uh, anxiety level goes up, your blood pressure changes, your Vargas nerve gets all weird and uh, it's an anxiety. So pop it in and I type away. So it really. Again, these little things change your life. But, but another one is, you know, I discovered a company called Sleep Cycle, which is a sleep app. And it's uh, I don't have my phone with me, but you pop it next to your bed, you go to sleep. And this app is so amazing. It doesn't need your wearable, but it will connect with it. It's not just, it's. It's monitoring your sleep and literally recording it. So like three days into this. I, um, was horrified because I. It will literally record you at night and it says you're sleep talking during this period. You're, you're snoring during this period. And I'm like, I don't snore. Turns out, uh, I was dying, literally dying at night. I have, I'm in the 98th percentile of sleep apnea and didn't know. It doesn't make sense from my doctor. I don't meet the criteria for having sleep apnea, but I do. That may have saved my life. You know, so these discovery things, discovery is such a critical part to this. And so it can be just because you're interested in your doom scroll, it can be because you have a specific question, or it could be because you're shopping. Now, eventually it will be hyper personalized because we'll be ingesting data. We'll be, we'll be using your data for good. We'll be very transparent about it. We're not sharing it with your employer. But don't you want, if you're in a wellness app, don't you want your well being to be personalized? And don't you want recommendations to be valid? And don't you want health plans and goals to be about you? So that's the way we really think about it.

Speaker B: Yeah. I, I so celebrate you and your team bringing this to the world and to individuals. And I want to talk about individuals and your decisions that make at a consumer app in a minute. And I also want to talk about data privacy and how you manage data because obviously this is very intimate data and so giving it to a responsible party such as yourselves is critically important. But before we go there, I want to talk about the brands and the value proposition for the brands and the range because you've talked about physical well being and I certainly resonate with the, the sleep story, but it's also yoga products, mindfulness, uh, practices, you know, across financial, uh, advisory. Can you speak to the range of how you're defining well being and what it would benefit, how it benefit individuals?

Speaker C: Yeah, so that's a, that's one of my favorite questions. So as I said, the range, the way we think of the aspiration to be, well it's your mind, your body, your soul, work, money and planet. So those consider those macro categories and content and commerce or the marketplace falls under those macro categories and our 38 subcategories. A lot of companies have uh, a uh, uh, eap. But when you ask any company how's your UAP EAP going? You're like most people don't use it but you kind of have to have it. Right? But what do people, you know, people are taking their well being into their own hands as I said and they're going out and they're getting their own therapist and they're doing it through services today where you can do it on your phone, you can text a therapist in the moment when you need it. You know, the younger generation, they're not necessarily, they don't need to look you in the eye. They're very happy to text you and be like I've got a problem that I want to chat about over text. So you know, we partner with companies that will match you to a therapist based on your needs. Like Calmry, very successful company based out of the Ukraine. 90% of their um, user patients um, are in America with American therapists. They do the matching, they give you the technology platform. You buy that through Mavi. So even though people have any companies have any aap, people are paying for therapy out of their own pocket. Right. So we've got therapy for everyone like through Calmeri. But when we curate, we also curate for personalization. We also have the black girl doctor coaching and therapy for and by black women. We also have the fourth trimester coaching and therapy for women who have left the workforce and want to come back, they think with, with grace and dignity and boundaries. Very unique. Right? We've got coaching for cancer, end of life caregivers, very specific services that are really important to a subset of people. Got career coaching, we've got fitness coaching. But we all live fit, you know, with a person. But we also have, you know, digital coaching, uh, you know, uh, active, which is workout, digital workout content. So you kind of have this uh, smorgasbord, but again curated. We don't have 50 of everything. We don't have 50 yoga mats. We have two. They're distinctly different. One of them gets made into you send it back to the company when you're finished. Gets made into sandals for people in India who do not have shoes. And the other one is made here in America and like, uh, like a primo solution like non stick and all of these things that you would want in a yoga mat. So again, we're trying to take the complexity out of it for you. Yeah, as you said, we have financial services support. We, we partner with the financial gym to give you financial training. We're going to be moving into financial advisory and coaching. We're even considering cryptocurrency education just to keep people, get people up to speed on what is happening in the world. We're not saying go put 100% of your portfolio in crypto, but we're saying it's happening. You should probably be educated about it. Right. So things that maybe an employer wouldn't be ready to do, but a consumer is doing, so why not make those available? Um, and you know, things you want to also expect, like supplements. You know, we have Pym, which was means, uh, prepare your mind. Founded by um, Robin Williams son and his wife Olivia, which is a gummy that is filled with adaptogens that is very good for your mental health. And uh, he is running around the world professing mental health because of what happened to him and his father and his family. So we, we have these really interesting solutions or my. One of my favorites is the algae lady. Her name is Katherine Arnsten and she's very happy for me to call her that. I met this lady at a wellness conference and she was talking about algae. And I promise you, Al, if you've ever heard this woman speak, you would be eating a hundred algae pills a day. Hands down. I, um, mean, she is so passionate. It is a prescribed food by NASA sanctioned by the United Nations. And um, she makes a little pill you pop in your mouth. And the thing that Mavi really stands for is the mindful moment of putting it in your mouth, of swallowing it, and of just knowing you're doing something good for your body from the inside out. Because humans are messed up in that. We want, like, we want to take the algae pill and say, I'm going to run a marathon. Why can't I run a marathon? You know, we want the ultimate solution instantly and well being is the long game and we want to help nudge you along the long game and remind you that when you're taking the algae pill or you're using this or you're riding your bike, just be mindful and we help you do it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, you know, again, there's so much richness in what you're sharing and we can talk for hours on it and we have a fixed amount of time today, so we're going have to come back to it. But one, uh, thread that I want to pull on here is the one of loneliness at work and going back to the CEOs that I mentioned before. It's like it's individual responsibility to take care of their own well being. Obviously best case scenario based on what you're providing is the employers make investments. This is a channel by which then individuals can realize those investments. But the loneliness idea, you know, where do we as human beings connect? We connect around our interests, we connect around, you know, what is where our energy goes. And so if I, my energy goes to a, uh, yoga studio or goes to, you know, bike riding and tracking with Strava, you know, I'm developing community. It might not be with my workmates, but it was with others and with remote work now I can find connections. So can you tell me what your vision is and what is already happening with Mavi and building community?

Speaker C: Community is a long. We have a giant vision for community. It's a core tenant of what we're building. We are engaged in it today. But what will come is going to be pretty interesting. So let me start with. I believe that employers have to stop thinking about the solutions and the support that they provide. Being constrained to the walls of the organization, as well intended as it is to have a challenge with your coworkers. And some people do it, but most don't. Um, as well intended as it is to have a wellness community and slack with your coworkers, it's more powerful. I'm not saying don't do those things. What I am saying is find ways to enable community to happen outside the walls as well. And that's where we come in. So community takes on many forms, as you've said, and one of the ways we do it today is by curating services that enable community. Strava is a really good example. It is a running app that literally helps you build community. If you're a runner. Others might say biking or biking, but we have other community services as well. So, for example, we just added one of my favorites, Rec Deck. Recdeck is an app, uh, that allows you to build your own inner circle of friends who watch streaming services and movies to share with each other your thoughts on what's good to watch and what's not good to watch. It's kind of like Tinder for the movies, but you create your own inner circle, and you're sharing and engaging on this very niche topic that's important to you, and that's community. I'm sure you've heard this, but, you know, the US Surgeon General just put out a report that said the number one cause of death by 2040 will be loneliness. That's not good. So, anyway, right now we're bringing in services that enable community that you can get, um, in the market. Some of those actually are also oriented to, toward volunteerism. So we partner with Be My Eyes. I don't know if you know them, but, uh, Be My eyes is has 7 million users around the world who. The app says, you have a request, it's real time, you have to answer it, and if you don't answer it, it moves to the next volunteer, and it's a blind person on the other side who needs help. I'm, um, picking a sweater out of my closet, and I don't know if it's green or red. Fires up the video. It's. You say it's green, they say thank you, and you just. I got the goosebumps. You just got a little hit of dopamine for doing something good in the world. Super cool. We also have our own virtual events that people join. So, for example, on, uh, in January, our next what we call Mavi community event, we call the Mavi Experiences. All of our users can join. And the next one is called, um, 2025 with purpose with Amy Wong, who wrote the book called Living on Purpose. She is one of the most amazing humans I've ever met. And she's going to kind of help set the stage for how to have a great 2025 using the power of your mind and intention and real, actionable insights, um, that she writes about in her book. And by the way, she's a She's like a rocket scientist. Like, she has a science background and a math background, and she pivoted into taking those principles and turning them into practical insights around using your mind to power, your intention and the life you create. We love her to death, but anyway, that's another way we do it. And then coming in 2025, our, our first features around Community, which I don't want to disclose just yet, but they're really interesting. It's a little bit proprietary at the moment, but we think of Community in three different ways and I'll leave it at that.

Speaker B: Frank, thanks so much. Because again, I look at young people who are entering the workforce, even, you know, if they're not in a office type job, you know. Yeah, they're, they're lonely, obviously, you know, digital natives, you know, trying to uncouple, you know, how to engage with other human beings and how to do that in healthy ways, not just, uh, around things that are counterproductive or unhealthy, you know. So anyway, certainly celebrate where you're going with that. I want to come back to something

Speaker C: because I'm tapping into you and your audience to help flush out that first, uh, that feature set. Right. Because I will say one of the things that's really important to us is, uh, we are a solution for humans built by humans to be human. So we always are asking our users, what do you want? What should it do? And so that's how it's evolving and that's been really powerful for us.

Speaker B: Yeah, I. So celebrate and want to hear where you're going to go with Community. So we're going to have to have you back on in the near future because I get, I have a flavor of. I'm excited for it and I'm going

Speaker C: to involve you, Al. Don't worry about it.

Speaker B: So if I'm listening, I'll find a good. And I'll say, okay, Al, you know, you all have talked about data privacy, data use, you know, a couple times now. Can you explain how you are holding this data in reverence, in appropriate privacy and GDPR and all those good things? How do you handle data?

Speaker C: We believe that data privacy and security is a core capability, um, that we invest, uh, significantly in, especially as we move into taking in data from external sources. So right now, all of the data that we have is constrained to what you do in the app. But in the beginning of 2025, we'll be taking in the data from your wearable or the data from the app that you activated through Mavi. And there'll be a roadmap for that. And we will make sure that that, uh, capability meets all of the requirements, you know, SOC2 and GDPR and all of those things. But we also think about it in a, um, like I said, we think about it as a, as a core technical capabilities. We really will pride ourselves on the solution that we're building. Know. And it's consumer data. It is not the data of the employer. And that is quite unique. Right? An employer would say, well, how are you protecting my data? And we give them three, you know, sheets of paper, and they're okay with it. But on the consumer front, it's quite a different story. So you own your data, you can have your data erased. If your employer can see any data, it is anonymized, aggregate it, and it would meet certain criteria for even being included in the anonymization and aggregation. So there are, you know, a lot of business rules and a lot of compliance that will, will go into this and it will never end. Right. It will become a really big part of the business. But I think most importantly, we will be very transparent to the user how and why their data is used and the benefit that they will get by allowing us to interpret data that's theirs to bring value to them through the Mavi experience. So I think that's really important is that we're not going to sell it. We're going to be using it for you to power you. We say, well, thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. Because, you know, right now, obviously, with the emergence of AI and I and just wrapping up, um, Yuval Noah Harari's book, uh, Nexus. Yeah, it was referring to Asia as, um, AI as alien intelligence, as opposed to artificial or augmented intelligence, which I find, you know, actually a healthy framing in many ways. So the privacy of the data and what AI agents can access and not access is going to be increasingly important. So it might be ahead of the game. But when you hear AI relative to Mavi, you know, what comes to mind? Do you have something planned for what happens within the app, or again, I suggested, you know, protecting it from outside agents.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, right now our, uh, the guard rails around our current. Our AI aid co pilot and, um, is very much in beta. As I said, there's a very grand plan for that. What will eventually evolve into your personal guide, which may even have a personality that aligns with you, by the way, around how you want to be engaged with. You know, some people like a stick, some people like a Carrot. Uh, so you know, I mean the sky is the limit and the AI will get smarter about you as you engage with it, but it again, it is within the context of the app and there will be very tight guardrails, as there are today, that will get loosened over time only as we learn about the risks of loosening the guardrail. And also, and by loosening the guardrail, I mean the more capability that it will have with respect to al. And one of the things that we'll have to figure out is what's your choice in what that agent or what that capability can know about you. You know, maybe it will be your choice about how smart it is. I personally want it to be smart if I'm comfortable that the data is being used, contained and, and uh, within Mavi.

Speaker B: Yeah, likewise, you know, thank you for that. And again, we're at the stage of development of AI where there's a lot that we still don't know and a lot.

Speaker C: But we also are very cautious.

Speaker B: The upside too is plainly evident. If you're, you know, using OpenAI and ChatGPT 4.0, it's like, it's amazing, you know, so, you know, it can do a lot of good on the well being front as well, particularly if it's sourcing data that is trustworthy and curated as you, as you.

Speaker C: Well, another, just uh, another point there is that when you think about, you know, the training of the AI, the generative AI capabilities, you know, we think about it in three ways. You know, there's the data that's owls that will help it be smart about you. There's the data that's an open large language model that will help it get really articulate. But then there's the, what we would call the um, specialized data LLM or specialized LLM that we will choose. It's not going to be the whole world of wellness. Just like, you know, we're very big on curation. So one of the things that we will figure out is really what are the sources that are feeding, you know, if it's going to generate a wellness plan for you. Is that coming from some like random open everything in the world or is that coming from a contained data set that we have decided is a right data set or set of data sets to feed that generative capability. And so uh, that's, that's all stuff that will unfold. But we don't think it's just a free for all of open LLMs that are supporting the generative capabilities of Mavi.

Speaker B: Well, uh, again thank you for sharing. And so, you know, we've probably got 10, 15 minutes left and I want to ask you some rapid fire questions here in a little bit. However, before we go there, as you're sharing this, it sounds like this app is appropriate for everyone. Is that a fair statement or is it the case where it'd be more appealing for young people or those who are mid career professionals or. What are your thoughts there?

Speaker C: I think my mom will be horrified that I'm talking about her on a podcast. But last night she called me about some sunscreen that she got on mommy that she loves. So, you know, my mom's 77 years old and uh, maybe she's biased because it's her son, but she calls and tells me, you know, the stuff that she buys. Look, as the, especially as the personalization gets better and better, um, you know, my mom's not going to connect her wearable. Right. Shouldn't have one. But as the personalization does get better and better, um, it will be cross generation. You know, I think the younger generations are really likely to jump in. But at the end of the day, there's not a generation that exists on the planet that doesn't know how to just shop or to consume a piece of content. So it is really made for everyone. And as I said, In a 6 trillion or soon to be $8 trillion industry, we will be curating for generations as well. I mean we are already curating for the millennials who are starting to have parents who require kids care and those millennials who are, you know, having their second child or first or second child and um, you know, it, it eventually will become about the family unit, not just you.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Because you know, moms and dads are buying for their parents and their kids.

Speaker B: Well, that's what I would have assumed and hope and it's just great to hear it because I, as you're sharing this, I'm thinking about my kids who are in their early 20s, young people. You mentioned career, uh, you know, counseling, you know, financial, um, advisory, you know, all these things when you look at the whole person that, you know, they matter. And for my money, I don't see like a, uh, for lack of a better term, a clearinghouse or a hub as you say. And particularly if my employer is an

Speaker C: interesting way to think about it.

Speaker B: You know, if my employer is supporting that financially and I already got some anti in there, the, that I can go spend and engage with. Yeah, all kinds of. Yes.

Speaker C: So yeah. And you know, I think the one thing about the Employers al. Uh, and we didn't mention it and this is probably also another whole podcast, but you know, I, the large employers have a whole smorgasbord of benefits, you know, and most people don't even know what they have. Right. Because it's so hard to communicate how much benefit you really have. But the small and medium sized businesses are grossly underserved. You know, small employers think, one, they don't, maybe don't know they should be providing a benefit. Two, they're not sure where to start. Three, they think it's expensive, you know, so all these, so it's not right. If you're giving someone a hundred dollars a month to spend on your well being, not only is that really powerful, but it also sends a really powerful message. So, you know, reminding a small and medium sized business who are by the way competing with resources that are trying to get jobs at Google. Um, you know, you need, these people need to make sure that they have benefits as well. And there was just an article in HR Executive today about the number one priority of employers will be well being and its impact, you know, longitudinally is having an impact to the bottom line over time.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. If, if people have talents and you know that you can apply to work, they're not around to apply those talents. It's, it's not that value is not going to be realized. So you know, not only, you know, the practical side of that, but also the virtuous side and just helping people be human, not just a worker helping them be human.

Speaker C: I love that. Yeah. So because they're doing it anyway, right? They're doing it anyway. Why not be thinking that's great that my employer, you know, helped me get this.

Speaker B: Well, before we go into the rapid fire question, I want to ask this, and I was going to ask it earlier, but what's your inspiration?

Speaker C: Why?

Speaker B: How did you get into this? You know, I, I, you have a, if you're just listening, Frank has a bicycle behind him. He's acting, I know that he's got

Speaker C: a breath work tube around his neck. He's got biotin gummies so he doesn't lose hair.

Speaker B: So what, How'd you get into this?

Speaker C: Look, I was a, I, you know, I grew up as an athlete. I was an athlete in college. I was kind of always in the wellness, I take care of myself kind of space. I jumped into my career and I focused only on my career for 28 years, 30 years. And I got lonely and I burnt out. And you know, without going into the whole Burnout story. It was real, it was powerful, it was scary. Thought I could never work again and again, maybe some other podcast, but scared the hell out of me. And I took, I was, uh, I decided to take a little bit of time off after 13 years at an HR technology company that went through rapid growth. My last seven years at that company, I was building the business from zero to you know, a hundred employees in nine countries in Asia all at the same time, which I just shaved my beard. But if you saw me yesterday, you would have known it was very gray. And you uh, know it's from that experience that I went gray. So I was traveling 100% of the time and I just, I burnt out. And so I decided to put myself first. I took some time off and I, I couldn't, I didn't think I could work again. I didn't know how I was going to work again. And I got really depressed like that I had never experienced before. And um, I would say as I worked through that depression, I had a bit of a spiritual awakening. I got on a spiritual path. Um, I started to understand the power of my mind and intention and how I actually do create my own life. And I decided I wanted to do something in, well, being. I wasn't exactly sure what it was. And Mavi materialized on a beach in France while I was taking a little bit of time off, which is why it's called My life in French. And I just got to it and. But I got to it right as Covid started. I started a business in the mid m. Early stages of COVID and uh, that was a whole set of other unique challenges. But my real intention was to understand prevention. When I really started to understand what wellness was and how big it was and its relationship to healthcare. Now I really honed in on this notion of prevention. And at the time there was, there was, there were a lot of, there was a lot of talk about this convergence of wellness and healthcare. These, this. The healthcare side is trying to play catch up and the consumer, well, wellness side is really accelerating and they were trying to converge but there's. They're different models. So they were like doing this. And I just realized that I wanted to help the convergence, the interplay between the two and what that led to was how do we help prevent so that healthcare happens later? And if healthcare happens later, what's the impact? Well, there's an economic impact on you and I because we're more productive longer. There's an economic impact on GDP because we're more productive longer. There's an economic impact on the government because we're more productive longer. And so this more productive longer became really interesting to me. But for me, it was about being more productive longer with a smile or happily productive longer. And so that's where the notion of helping society and helping the, uh, planet be more productive, you know, our contribution to society and the planet's productivity longer. And so, you know, I wanted to change the way we experience this, and I wanted to make it easier to connect to wellness. You know, if I. If you don't have a passion or a problem, what about everybody else? And, uh, you know, I realize you have to take. We, you know, humans avoid complicated stuff. You know, if there are 50 yoga mats, you don't want it complicated. So you buy the one Amazon tells you to buy, the Amazon Choice. So, you know, I just wanted to change that Model M on its head and give people a really interesting way to not just buy stuff, but to connect to the journey. And so that's where it all comes from.

Speaker B: Thank you, Frank. And thank you for doing what you do. As you're sharing this. Heard a. It was a show, I believe, on NPR or maybe BBC. It was featuring, uh, think before you pink. So, so much money going into cancer research, which is noble and. And needs to be done, certainly. But the idea was there's not as much money and investment going into cancer prevention. So why are we not putting our energy there?

Speaker C: And most of that starts in the head. There are studies, study after study, that are coming back. You know, we talk about the genetic predisposition to cancer. I'm not a doctor, so don't take this as medical advice, but I'm. I'm keenly interested in these studies that say it's what you think and the quality or the positivity or negativity of your thoughts that really creates disease and that now there are studies that are really showing that the genetic predisposition is not you will get cancer if you have this. It is the interplay between what happens in here and that genetic predisposition. That's powerful stuff. And so, yeah, let's focus on prevention as the cure and the habits you

Speaker B: form and leveraging these resources and assets and food and, uh, you know, all these, you know, uh.

Speaker C: And it's all interconnected, right? There's no silver bullet. That's the whole point of Bobby really is there's no silver bullet. You got. You have to engage. It has to become a series of habits that last a lifetime. And those habits can change over time.

Speaker B: Yeah, Guys. So, okay, let's get into these, um, questions, but I am going to sneak in this one before. What's. What was your sport?

Speaker C: What was your sport was a springboard platform diver.

Speaker B: You and Adam Grant.

Speaker C: I think you might have told me that before.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So not about associations. Okay? All springboard divers are entrepreneurial, super, uh, smart.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We also know how to. We're like cats, though. Like, you throw us up in the air and we can land on our feet if we're upside down and backwards. So.

Speaker B: All right, so here we go with the question. So first off, uh, and you're starting to touch on it, uh, what do you do for fun?

Speaker C: Right now I'm in Florida for a bit of a extended period of time, and so I'm a water freak, I. E. Diver. And so I just. I just love to be on the water. It's interesting. I, you know, I. I live in la, but. And it's just not a water culture, but in Miami it is. So anything I could do to get on the water, I love it.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And what or who are your inspirations?

Speaker C: You know, I think that they're. They're evolving. M. So there's the. The kind of, like, the spiritual one that kind of really resonates with m. Me, I don't know if you know this, but when I was in Asia, I spent a lot of time in India, so Swami Yogananda, uh, you know, like, I don't go to ashrams and. And like, meditate, but, you know, once I read Autobiography of a Yogi, like, my life was, like, completely changed by this guy. And in. In Los Angeles, we have one of his spiritual realization centers, and I would go once a week. I was actually introduced to it by one of our brand partners, Alexa Fisher, who took me there. And again, like, my. Your life changes in these moments. So that guy just kind of fuels me. Like, if you said, who could you have dinner with? What one person could you have dinner with? I think it would be him.

Speaker B: Wow. Paramount Yogananda and Self Realization Fellowship there.

Speaker C: And I. Self Realization Fellowship, Yeah. It is in Pacific Palisades.

Speaker B: Pacific Palisades. All right.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, no, thank you for sharing and, uh, obviously, your mindfulness, your awareness, your systematic thinking and compassion, obviously there's a through line there. So thank you for sharing.

Speaker C: And, uh, but let me. Let me say something about that, Al. That's later in life. And one of the things I want to leave with people is, like, you don't have to, like, come into the world, the spiritual. You know, it's like I used to say, oh my God, why am I learning these things at 50 years old? It's too late. Well, take them when they come. You know, they come when you're ready to hear them. I mean, you don't have to follow a, uh, you know, a yogi, but life is about being open to when it comes, it comes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Very well said, guys. You know, thank you for sharing. And this, um, the last two or might be a little bit more involved, but the first one is what are your hopes? I mean, we have a lot of concerns. Anxiety about the future, no doubt. But what are your hopes for the future as we look out 12, 24 months?

Speaker C: I'm not going to answer about Mavi. I'm not going to answer about well being. Uh, well, maybe it is a well being answer, but, but my hope is just general acceptance of one another and our opinions and, and viewpoints. You know, one of the things that I've, um, kind of come to realize is that like, life is actually about contrast. You know, the things that don't res, you know, don't make sense to you is where the growth is. You know, it doesn't mean you have to go agree with everyone, but you certainly have to try to understand. You know, I don't have to tell anyone we're in a world where there's a lot of contrast with interpersonal contrast. So, uh, my great hope is that we can just understand each other more.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And uh, I too share.

Speaker C: Mommy believes that too. It's not just frank and it's represented in, in Mavi. You know, if you, if you look at our words in the app and you kind of look at the topics that we engage with, it is about those topics that are unifying that it doesn't matter what your politics are.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, again, yeah. As you're sharing this and you can see the threads around compassion, around self awareness, around being other centered as well. So again, thank you for showing up that way both individually and creating a company that actually facilitates that for us as human beings. So.

Speaker C: Well, I think that's probably one of the reasons why you and I connected is because we share. I think we share that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thank you. And so the final question is this, is that for young people, what would be your advice for them? You touched on it arguably a little bit in the previous answer. But for those who are late teens, early 20s, specifically, you know, what would you hope for them, given everything that's happening in the world.

Speaker C: See experience after experience after experience. Don't hide from the, don't hide from an experience because you feel like you're going to be seen or judged or fail or scared. It is, I learned it too late. I hid at work for a very long time and it left me lost. And so I think the younger generations are much more apt and capable of leaning into life and having experiences prioritizing differently than we did. But I, I, I think choosing to not experience something because of some fear is the worst thing that we can do that.

Speaker B: So as we wrap here, you have a gift. If it were, as it were, I do for our listeners. You want to share about that?

Speaker C: Look, I'm all about giving the gift of well being. So I'd love to give all of your listeners access to Mavi. They'll be able to download it to from their preferred app store and uh, during the onboarding, you know, the setup, uh, process, answer three questions. They'll need to put in a special, uh, exclusive code just for your listeners. The best way to remember it is AL future of work 20. But abbreviate future of work AL FOW 20. And not only will they get to access Mavi, because you can access Mavi, anyone will be able to access Mavi. But if you put in that code, there will be $20 in the person's wallet to spend on their wellbeing and get started. So we're all about building the community. And as I said, I think I said earlier, we're early days. We've only delivered 3 to 5% of our vision and we want that vision to expand because our users are telling us what they want. So more people that are willing to go on the journey with us and be on the ride, the better.

Speaker B: Outstanding. Uh, Frank, thank you for sharing. Thank you for being who you are. Thank you for creating Mavi. How can people learn more about you and Mavi?

Speaker C: M. Yeah, of course I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me there. You can find me@gomavy.com and uh, you know, one of the things that's happening beginning in a couple of weeks is we're going to like really going to town on social media where we're going to be putting forth Mavi moments or m Mavi minutes to really just give back and help people learn and you know, hopefully drive them to the app as well. But if they don't go to the app, they can, you know, get value from just being connected to us on social media so can find us on all the social channels as well.

Speaker B: Well, outstanding. I'll be following. I'll be listening and contributing and having some fun with it. So again, thank you for being who you are. And uh, thanks for sharing.

Speaker C: And thank you, Al. Really appreciate it. Super good conversation.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the People Data for Good Podcast with me, Al Adamson. To learn more about me and other podcasts and media I'm creating, please visit my website, Al Adamson, or follow me on your favorite social media platform. Again, thanks for being here and please be well.