Burnout-Proofing Your Firm: Lessons from Lynnette Oss

Speaker A: Welcome to the accounting talent podcast, Lynette. Super excited to have you here today for a conversation that is very close to my heart, and I think one that isn't spoken about enough. So welcome.

Speaker B: Thanks, Nick, for having me.

Speaker A: So today we're going to be talking about burnout, and we're going to be talking about your story and your journey, and more importantly, frameworks on how we can help our team and ourselves not get to that point. And I think it's spoken about a lot in industry groups and, uh, at conferences, but I don't think there's enough taught around the frameworks to not get there. And we don't speak about in the right ways. So that's why I'm super excited to have you here today. Lynette, before we do get kicked off, tell us a little bit about who you are personally.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I am a burnout recovery and prevention strategist. I got to this point because I suffered most of my adult life and chronic burnout in accounting firms and in my own accounting practice. So I'm really excited to bring strategies to firm owners, to people working in accounting to make sure that those years I wasted or spent trying to figure out how to make it work, you don't have to waste your time. Uh, people you know in your firms don't have to waste their time feeling like there's something wrong with them. Instead, there really are actionable things that we can do. Um, that's my passion professionally. Um, on a personal note, I'm a mom. I have five kids, three cats, and a husband who is also an accountant. So, um, that's me in a little nutshell.

Speaker A: That's cool. And today's topic is really. I mean, we're talking about burnout and how to prevent it, but what we're really talking about is how do you drive and help your team thrive in a high performing environment? And being able to put in place frameworks to make sure that we can maximize performance and not get to burnout is a key part of it. So do you want to give us, you know, tell us about your story, because obviously you've. You've owned your own firm, you've been in the industry, and. And you burnt out. So tell us a little bit or tell us about your story.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I am an accidental accountant. And I think when I speak to other accountants, there are a lot of us out there who don't mean to become an accountant, but due to circumstance, um, it meets your needs or it strikes your fancy. So I became an Auditor in a public accounting firm. I was there for four or five years until I had my first kiddo. And then I chose to leave and start a bookkeeping or cast practice. And that was a lot of hard work and a lot of fun. I learned a lot about myself. I went through several iterations of that practice over the next, um, six years. From that point, I became a QuickBooks Pro advisor. I had clients who I served as their fractional cfo. Ultimately though, what started to lead to my burnout was this work life balance. My work was ultra fulfilling. My family was ultra fulfilling. But when you're the only one doing the practice, um, you stretch yourself at all angles, as I'm sure many of your listeners know. Nick. So that was my story. Ultimately though, my oldest kiddo got very, very sick. I had to drop all my clients. I had someone working for me part time. I couldn't support training her anymore. And then I had to rebuild it. And then I had another personal emergency and I had to rebuild my firm again. And every time I did it, I said, this time's going to be different. This time I'm going to get employees who know what they're doing. This time I'm going to have training manuals. This time I'm going to automate. And it becomes a little bit of a trap when you're the only one you're hustling with. I mean, looking back, it becomes so clear what I should have done differently or how I could have cared for myself or my clients, but better. Um, ultimately though, I am blessed that accounting was in my life because it provided for my family through my divorce, when I became a single mom, and then when I got remarried. Um, that's how I have five kids. Two or mine. Three are his. Um, that the profession met our needs. Ultimately though, at the end of the day, my husband, who is a deer, said, lynette, this isn't where your passion is. Your passion is in your clients, but not in their numbers. And so I have been blessed to now get, get to help firm owners in more of a personal capacity and a coaching capacity. Um, I am, um, grateful for the journey of burnout only in that I get to help other people, not get to a very burnt out state that I was in.

Speaker A: So when did you actually recognize that you were burned out? Because I know there's times that I've pushed really hard over the last 20 something years. And you know, I've always tried to keep a positive mindset. And I don't, I don't say I was burned out, but there was times where I probably was, like, how do you actually know? Like, what are the, what are the symptoms? I suppose that if someone's listening to this going, well, I'm not burnt out. I'll never be burnt out. I'm not going to be that person. But there's a lot that are. So what are some of those symptoms? And how do you recognize that, you know what, I'm pushing too hard. Uh, uh, I need to take a bit more, you know, give myself a bit more of a break.

Speaker B: For sure. It's a great question. It's very individual. Burnout is an individual issue. It's not diagnosable. It is a constellation of symptoms that are unique to the person. If you look at Fight, Flight, Fawn and Freeze, the stress responses, the threat responses that our nervous system has, you can actually find that irritability, compromising values, um, dissociation, those things can all actually be burnout symptoms. But one thing I think that listeners need to understand is that burnout exists on a spectrum or on a trajectory. Over here we might have a healthy stress response, and over here we have what we might call full fledged burnout, existential crisis. Not getting out of bed, I'm going to fire all my clients, I'm going to get divorced. Like, we're going to burn it all down. Which is probably why they call it burnout. In the middle though, every one of us, every day is moving toward burnout or back to a completely balanced, healthy stress response based on two things. Based on your individual stress tolerance, which is how you personally handle stress, and based on your stress management techniques. So for example, somebody who has a high stress tolerance might actually get, uh, closer to burnout before they notice their symptoms because they think, this is just my personality. I'm really resilient, I'm a hustler, I can sleep only five hours a night. I know many guys especially fall into that category of, uh, thinking they're Superman and invincible. And in reality their stress tolerance is just very high before their body cues them into the fact that this is maybe a red light alarm, not healthy level to be at. Some symptoms, um, that guys and gals can fall into is feeling that their irritability is justified. There's a reason I'm frustrated, there's a reason why I'm angry and I'm feeling aggressive and I need you to hear my way of doing things. We, um, self justify, like we tell ourselves that our stress is warranted based on our circumstance. And I think one of the Biggest things about burnout that in all the books I've read doesn't get enough credit, is that when you've hit burnout, your own ability to manage your stress along that trajectory has broken down. There are three ways to self manage your stress. Self care, self management, and self advocacy. If you read a book about burnout, you're going to hear them tell you you need to take a break, you need to rest, you need to exercise. Okay, Self care, self management, you need to set boundaries, you need a better calendar, you need a personal assistant, you need automated systems, right? That's self management. And then the third thing is self advocacy, which is when you feel like you have a problem, go talk to your boss, talk to a colleague, talk to your doctor. It's to know how to talk about it. So, uh, before you've hit burnout, those things are really useful. But once you've hit burnout, your self help has broken down and you need other people. And this is the thing I think doesn't get enough credit. You need one another. We need one another to be burnout literate, to recognize when we're saying, you know what, Nick, that irritability, I think you're getting burnt out.

Speaker A: Uh, I think the question I have, and this is a comment that I get from a lot of firm owners, obviously coaching them, is that they're so busy, like this sounds all like, I won't use the word woo woo. But you know, it's, it's great in theory, but I've got tax season, I've got these deadlines, I've got to get through these times. Like so what? People burn out. They just need to. We'll just get someone else or I'm not going to burn out. I know for me, I know that it's a 10 week cycle and I learned this probably the hard way years ago where I know that at the. I work, I push pretty hard, I work long hours during the time that I do. But I have 12 weeks off a year. So my pain is self inflicted because I have so much time away with family and, and that's critical and important to me. So when I am working on Those weeks, the 10 weeks, I'm working hard, but I know that at the end of it I become irritable, I become short, I become snappy. And I know that if my diary is not managed right by my executive assistant and I go 11 weeks or 12 weeks, my team will be messaging her going, why isn't it gone away? We know his burnout is 10 weeks and I use the word burnout, but I know that that's just the end of how I can push that hard. So as a firm owner, as, uh, someone that is responsible and accountable for their team and their performance and their wellbeing, what are some things that they can actually implement or, you know, we're not trained in managing people at this level. So what are some of the practical tips that you could go, look, if someone, Is it that they take regular holidays? Is it like, how do you manage this with your team so that it, it never happens? Because I'd never want to be responsible for my team, this happening to them, for sure.

Speaker B: First thing to keep in mind when we're talking about managing other people's burnout, when we're not talking about our own, is you cannot make somebody take care of themselves or be in alignment with their own values, their purpose, and their why one of the symptoms of burnout. Well, so let's backtrack a quick second, Nick. Back in the 70s, there was a social scientist named Friesenberger who coined the original language around burnout. And without getting into all of his research, he and a woman whose last name is maslach in the 80s have three primary characteristics of burnout. It's emotional exhaustion, which is carrying too much for too long. It's depersonalization, which is cynicism and disconnection. And it's lack of accomplishment, which is that no matter how much I do, it's not making a difference. Knowing these three when we're managing other people is the key. Because no matter how many vacations they take, if their work isn't aligned with fulfillment, with their emotional resonance with the thing that drives them, no amount of success, no number of vacations is going to make that person content and happy to be in your company long term. And so there are some important questions we can ask employees around. What kind of work do you find most fulfilling? And if your employee comes back, they may be pretty young, say, okay, give it some thought. But seriously, come back to me and let me know, because I want to get you on projects, I want to get you on clients that resonate with you, that having the purpose in the work, when push comes to shove, if it gets hard, like Nick, when work gets hard for you, part of why you're able to stay resilient even in the face of a lot of stress, is because your work is your passion. With your employees, if that work isn't their passion, it's going to become more and more important that we make sure that that employee feels other compensating. Why's micro purposes? So just because your work isn't your staff member's lifelong passion, if we can build in small elements of meaning and resonance for that employee, I think it'll go a long way because one, loyalty. But second of all, they will have the intrinsic drive.

Speaker A: So how did you do that in your firm? Because I mean it sounds great in theory, but we've got a, ah, massive tax season, particularly in North America. It's condensed. It's like we're working, we're working hard. Huh? We're pushing hard, we're getting the work done. We're wanting to serve our clients to the highest levels. In theory, I really care about the performance of my team. But do I have time to go? You don't feel passionate about that work, don't worry about doing it. We'll find something that you do. What did you practically implement within your firm and recommend other firm owners because you coach this, what do you recommend they do to be able to do this and serve their team members at the highest level?

Speaker B: For sure, a lot of it is having the communication, having the conversation, even the conversation around burnout literacy. This is what burnout looks like. This is the stats here, education, so that when we're all feeling it, we can be compassionate to one another. Um, regarding, it's tax season and this is not any of our passion. Absolutely. At the end of the day though, those individuals chose to take a job with your firm. And so everybody just having clear expectations around these, ah, these are the windows in which we have tax deadlines, making sure everybody's on board, full disclosure, this is what's expected of you. I think that most individuals, we don't, we don't need to feel the warm fuzzies all the time. But understanding my piece of the puzzle regarding my firm or my company's bigger mission helps me not only individually meet my goals, but, but say I'm a part of something bigger with this company. So communicating firm values, firm mission and getting buy in. And by getting buy in, I just mean making sure everybody's living the values.

Speaker A: And I think this is a key part. It's not necessarily about the burnout. It's about if we are being the best leaders that we can be and the best example for our team. It's having these deep conversations. We don't have to be friends with them, but we need to understand them. They need to trust us that if they've got issues, they've got challenges that they can come and Talk to you about that. And I think that is one of the things where a lot of uh, firm owners fail is that they don't, they don't lead correctly, they don't have, they haven't built that relationship and that in depth relationship where someone can come and say, look, I am feeling under the pump because they're going to get told to hurry up, we need to work out or work more hours or whatever it is. So for me it's more of a leadership thing. So for anyone that uh, is a firm owner that is listening to this today, what can they do for themselves and then what can they do to implement to their team so that they actually catch these signs or, or they have meaningful conversations with their team because they're hard conversations to have around, you know, how you're feeling and these things. It's not natural for a lot of people.

Speaker B: Well, um, it doesn't have to be touchy feely. Like you said, we don't need to be anybody's friends in order to have these conversations. In fact, having a scientific demonstration, um, a presentation around what is burnout can go a long way just to know so that there's a common language. Um, there was a statistic from 2024 that said 52% of employees believe that talking about mental health at work is important. But only 72%. Um, I'm going to miss. I'm so sorry, I'm pretty sure I'm misquoting the statistic. I have it right here. I think it's important. I'm going to read it for you.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: got going and realized. There we go. So I'll take this back. Outside of accounting. So in accounting, 99% of employees have reported some symptom of burnout in the last year.

Speaker A: Only, uh, 99%.

Speaker B: Only 99. Shocking.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow. But across industries, 52% of all employees in all industries reported burnout. That's a 2024 statistic.

Speaker A: So we're well outside of that. Well, outside of it. Well, well, uh, in a bad way, not in a good way.

Speaker B: The same study said that most people believe that speaking about mental health at work is appropriate. But only 70% of senior level employees reported having had access. Sorry. 70% of uh, senior level employees report not having access to training about mental health at work. 70% of senior level employees are not equipped to have the conversation. But the majority of people believe that that conversation is appropriate. So get the training. So what would be, and some coaching.

Speaker A: So what would be like if, if someone needed that training? Like if we were to give them like a two minute version of that training now, like what would be some of those things that they need to learn how to have the conversation on?

Speaker B: Well, a lot of what we already said. What are the three major thing symptoms, uh, of burnout, emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, lack of accomplishment. Also that burnout is the accumulation, an individual constellation of stress symptoms in a person. So anything that is a symptom of stress is a symptom of burnout. So managing your stress is proactively preventing burnout. So intersecting with stress early for yourself and your employees, becoming attuned to what stress looks like, not for your employees, but empowering them to recognize their own stress, getting training on what stress looks like and just have them self reflect. And also during busy season, there's not a lot we can do to take a break. On a macro level, you got to keep coming back. But encouraging each person to find what works for them. Do they need to home and walk the dog every night? Do they need to take a walk like in the middle of the day? I mean, just empowering them to take a break. Do what you got to do. Also Nick, I have two really hot tips that I have seen no one else give about burnout. One is that variety is your friend. If you start getting burnt out with a particular kind of task, repetitively doing it over and over again, you're going to burn out. Equipping your employees with a variety of tasks, it might be a variety of industries on their clients, or if that doesn't make sense for your business model, mix up which of those tasks they're dividing between one another. Mixing up how they do the work. Are they always doing it solo? Let's not have that happen. Let's do some partnered work. Let's structure it in for them. A lot of people get into a rut so easily. The other tip borrowed from Neurodiversity Techniques is body doubling. When you have somebody on your team or yourself, if you are very, very stressed out, starting to get depressed, starting to get anxious, your work is starting to suffer for it, but you feel more and more strongly that I'm the only one that can do it right? Uh, we've all fallen into this fallacy. Body doubling will make a huge difference. It means bringing somebody else in to work side by side with you at that conference table in your cubicle. If you work, remote, phone, a friend, work like in tandem, um, could be on the same project, or it could be what we call parallel play, which is where I'm Doing something over here, you're doing something over there. We're going to set the timer for 30 minutes. We're going to just hold each other accountable to that work. When I was super burnt out, this is one of the best ways my husband helped me. I would say I need to do this tax return. It's causing me so much anxiety. I would say I need you to come in here with me. We would set up at the dining room table. He didn't do that tax return for me, but he sat with me at that table until I was done. And when I was done, you know what he did? He brought me a cup of tea or a soda or a cookie and he told me, you did an amazing job. I'm so proud of you. So having uh, those kinds of encouragement partners, when you sense that your team is really hurting, don't wait till you're hurting to get a culture where you encourage and join with one another in the work. As accountants. So often we silo ourselves. This is my work, that's your work. Let's not do that. Connection keeps us from being too self reliant.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love the timer thing. I've got it. For anyone that's watching on the YouTube, I've got a timer. I put it on and it ticks away. I think it's a real productivity hack. But I think that there are things that firm owners need and should be doing and I think this is part of leading a team, is that we know that people are going to be doing the heavy lifting and working long hours during these periods. We need to build in strategies into and it could be one firm I spoke to the other day, they have lunch together every day. So they're an in office business. They have lunch every day, they sit down for 30 minutes together. The others that I've seen, there's a lot of firms that are, uh, when they're, when the owners are focused on building the business that they want rather than getting one by default, they don't have these pressures. Some of them are working four day weeks during tax season. It's possible because they don't overload with clients. But let's just assume that you're not there. There is definite things like I make sure my team are uh, doing their wellness stuff like they're going to the gym, they're doing their runs, whatever their fitness things are that they have. We encourage them to get it in the diary and it's non negotiable whether that be during the day, after work, before work, there's always strategies that if you're intentional about this that you can implement with your team. I think the challenge is that most leaders are not leaders, they're doers. And then everyone's just around them doing the work and they're not being intentional about getting their team through which ultimately gets them the low performance. The team don't stick around, around. People are not as productive during these busy periods too. You can still push 12, 14 hours a day and be really effective and during that time. But you need to be at your best shape. You need to be healthy. Like don't feed them junk food during tax season because, uh, what you put in is what you get out. And if you're giving them crap food, then they're not going to have the energy. If you're feeding them sugar and biscuits and stuff, that isn't what they need. So I think that for me there is just so much that we can do, but we need to be intentional with it.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think leaders need to remember that they are like the team captain. You need to lead by example, not do what I say, not as I do. And so if you want your team to have good boundaries, I've seen this several times, the leaders say you need to have good boundaries, get your exercise in, eat healthy during busy season and then they're not doing it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you've got to take care of yourself because your team will not take you seriously if you're not leading by example.

Speaker A: 100% agree. And I think your vibe attracts your tribe. And I look at it, you know, in the last 20 months I've lost close to 120 pounds, which is 54 kilos in Australian terms. So it's a huge amount. But I look at all of the stats within our business like we had, we run, we got four and a half thousand team members in one of our businesses globally. And the amount we do a biggest Loser every year. So it's a health campaign, it's a 14 week program. It was up 20% last year. There's the amount of people in the offices where I work the most that are doing triathlons gym, like they're just transforming themselves. I haven't said anything and I think this is the key is be the lighthouse, not the tugboat. But if you install that, like I look at the firm owners that are fit, that are industry leading, that have got work life integration and are still running great fast growing businesses, they balance their lives. Like I talked to the balance CPA yesterday, a guy called Nick, um, An amazing guy, like. And I said to him, I said, mate, you're in great shape, but you're in tax season. You're doing a podcast with me. You're in amazing shape. Like, how do you balance it all? And he says, well, Nick, if I'm not leading, my team can't fit follow. And if I'm expecting them to just slave away for the next 14 weeks, 16 weeks, because that's what the government say the tax season is. That's not how we run. We, we're intentional about how we run our business. And I think it comes back to that focus on people. And this whole podcast is, is about people and they are your biggest asset. But you know, we're learning lessons from you that, you know, unfortunately got through Ben. And I think we've all gone through it at some point, whether we recognize or not. And I think it's hard.

Speaker B: 99% Nick.

Speaker A: Y. Yeah, like, it's amazing. So for me it's around how do we recognize this with our team and get to the point where they never get to it? So what are some amazing things that you've seen with firms that, you know, you coach and talk to about this? What are some great, I suppose, systems that they put in to make sure that this never does happen? Obviously the awareness and training on it is one thing to recognize it, but what are things before that that they can do that the best firms that

Speaker B: you see are doing for burnout prevention? Yeah, you know, I wish I could tell you that somebody's doing it right. I think we're all struggling through it together. I think it's this year's hot button issue. I, I haven't seen a single firm who's doing a, uh, an amazing job doing it. And I think the firms that are doing the best job of it are small individual run firms where the owner operator who started a firm, has hired a team of people, has had corporate struggle, and just like yourself, knows what they want, wants to be that leader who leads by example. The lighthouse, as you said. Uh, unfortunately I don't think you can prevent burnout foolproof. It really is an extension of our humanity. And the industry as a whole needs to adapt our focus to be on the individual and not each individual, but collectively us all as individuals and realize that we are not machines, we are not computers, the things that AI can do and we can leverage. On one hand, I hear a lot of talk about how automation is going to reduce burnout, and I'm not one to say that that's true. I think that oftentimes the risk is in thinking that we can engineer a burnout proof system until we're paying attention to the humanity of the labor force and the things that make us human, which is our creativity, our resilience, our connection with one another, the things we bring to the table that the m computers can't. We need to adjust the way we work to leverage that technology that can do those things, but to also leverage ourselves. Not to overextend ourselves, but to let us shine our best. And again, you said it might sound woo woo to some people, but I'm an idealist. I think that if we're not trying to get there, we'll never even get close to getting there.

Speaker A: So how, uh, the name of your business is reinspired and I think that it's, you know, we as leaders need to always be in a positive mindset. And even if we're having a bad day, you know, if someone asks me, I'm like, I'm amazing, I'm great, I'm having a cracking day, even if I'm not. But it's. How do you continue to maintain that inspiration and passion that you know. Because we all got into this industry for a reason. There's a reason why we own accounting firms and there's a reason why we haven't left the industry. And yes, there's talk about a bunch that have, but there's a significant amount of accountants globally that are still accountants. Like it's in whole industry, it's billions and billions, trillions of dollars worth of. So how do we continuously, you know, because times are uh, challenging, you know, pandemic was challenging for the industry. Obviously tax seasons are always challenging for the industry. But how do we continually be reinspired and drive and show that passion for the impact that we do make and why we actually do do what we do?

Speaker B: I think reminding yourself of it, your individual passions, post it, stick it here, behind on your desk, behind your monitor. So part of my story that I didn't get into in detail earlier though is I lost my why I had reasons why I was doing it. And through life circumstance, those fell apart. And I did not spend the time to sit down and intentionally re inspire myself to refine that purpose. And so I was grinding, hustling for no greater purpose other than I'd always done it. And so it became hollow, it lost its vibrancy. And so for something to maintain its illumination for you, it's inspiration for you. You need to let it grow for you and let it evolve. So Say you are really focused on the real estate industry. You serve real estate clients. That's your passion because your dad was in real estate. Great. Wonderful. And you know, something happens, you end up with a really bad deal, bad taste in your mouth. Doesn't matter. Dad did that. We're not doing real estate anymore. We're going to focus on just anybody who walks in my door. And then you get kind of cynical, kind of burnt out because you're doing the work you've always done, but without the passion. And so when you pivot like that, when life throws you a curveball, take a retreat, even if you don't go away for a whole weekend, but sit down and intentionally say self. Lynette, uh, why are. Why are we doing it now? The intentionality cannot be. I can't give it enough credit. Be intentional with yourself to find everybody has a passion for something. If you don't feel it right now, you need to kind of tap into it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I resonate with that because I built a business that I grew to hate. And, you know, I'm massively passionate about all the, you know, the businesses. Uh, my talent solutions business, my. Now I coach accounting firm owners. And. But I'd built a business that was scaling me. It wasn't scaling the business. And by that meaning, I was just doing more and more. So we won all these awards and we got all these accolades, and we were going 20, 30% growth year on year, and. But I'd built a business that I grew to hate because I wasn't intentional. And I fell out of love with it. And then I sort of hit a wall one day, and I was like, it doesn't need to be like this. Like, what's the point of all of this? And it was only when I sat back and really went, you know what? This is where I absolutely love doing the work. And this is all the stuff I don't. And I was intentional about changing it. And I completely over, uh, the last 18 months. And that's when I went through my wellness journey, where I lost all the weight. And I was very intentional about the work I do. And I think if you're an owner of a firm, then only working on the things that you are really passionate about and building a team that can do the rest, and having a team that can makes it easy for you to turn up and love what you do every day, because you're doing what you love every day.

Speaker B: Yeah. I will say, though, that people who are ultra passionate about something, the most dedicated, talented, and Valuable individuals in those niches with that work are at unique risk for burnout because they pour themselves so fully into it. And so I will. I've cautioned so many people, the fact that you love it doesn't mean that you'll burn out, won't burn out. That's not a buffer. So you need to have the passion, but then you need to have all those other self things, the self management, the self advocacy and the self care to buffer yourself, to have guardrails around making sure that you protect yourself. Because if that's truly what you're passionate about and what you're meant to do, you're going to have the most impact when you're your healthiest. You won't have the impact you want to have if you're not healthy.

Speaker A: And that resonates with me because I've got a lot of, uh, leaders in, in our businesses that love what they're doing and they work a lot because they love it. And I have to consciously make sure that they're balancing it out because they will. It's just not human to not hit a wall like you. Everyone will burn out. It's, you know, people say they're different and they're built different and they can have no sleep and all this, but we all know that it's not true. And I think that's some of the telling signs around, you know, if performance is dropping, if they're shorter, it's. And that's why I really think that, you know, this topic is so critical and important to have not only for ourselves, but as leaders of a team, like if we're leading an accounting firm or we're a manager or leader within a business, it's our responsibility to get the maximum performance out of our team, but ultimately to really help them to succeed. And burning them out isn't going to help their career, it's going to help them leave the industry. And I think that look at the numbers of people that have left the industry. It's the industry's fault and it's the people that were leading those people to drive them out. Because if we manage those people right, I truly believe that they would never have left because they wouldn't have got to the point where they're like, this just isn't worth it.

Speaker B: Yeah. One thing about burnout we haven't quite hit on, but I think is important to, to slide in there, is that anything can cause burnout and anyone can experience it. So in my story, a lot of my burnout was not my Work. My work was actually a great relief to me. I was burnt out at the hospital with my kid. I was burnt out of stuff related to my divorce. I was burnt out of all my home life, caretaking older relatives all at once. And so the thing that had to give for me was work. Symptomatically, it felt like I was burnt out at work because I couldn't let my guard down at home. I had responsibilities to my family. And so when we're managing people who are experiencing burnout as well, I would really love to make sure that maybe not in the hierarchy, but we have a culture where peers are checking in with one another to make sure that you're feeling that your whole total self is healthy or getting help. We hide it at work. If you're taking care of an elderly relative at home, if you have a kid with special needs, if you're going through relationship drama, you don't come to work and tell people that. It just looks like you're burnt out at work. And so in our burnout literacy, taking care of yourself at home is just as important as taking care of yourself at work and vice versa. They m. They, you are one person and so your, your facets of your life impact one another.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's the whole work life balance and four hour work week. I think I, I blame some of that because it's just life, it's integration of everything. And I think that when I look through the thousands and thousands of performance reviews that get done in one of my businesses and you know, the majority of the time where performance, where someone's been performing really well and now they're not, the majority of time that they're not, it's actually stuff that's going on outside of work. It's the personal stuff. And you know, when you dropped your kid off and they were a little bugger and they, they didn't say nice things to you and that puts you in a frame for the day and then puts you under the stress and burden and you know, all of those things. I think it's around. And that's why I think it's managing people. It's not just managing the work component of their life. It's how do we help them to really manage their life better, to give them the tools and the resources and the skills and capability. Because if we know if, if they're generally high performing at work, they've normally got their stuff together outside of work. So I think that for me is that uh, this, this conversation is, is. Can go off in so many ways because I think it comes back to leading people. Um, so I know that we're coming up to the end of time. What are, what are a couple of things that you think that firm owners, one, need to know that we haven't talked about and two, what would be your recommendation for them to, to actually do something? Like, what would that do? Be like, what do you recommend they do?

Speaker B: All right, your two questions were what's something that we haven't covered yet?

Speaker A: Yeah, so let's cover that one first.

Speaker B: What, what is an actionable item?

Speaker A: Yeah, what should they actually do? So someone that's listened to this, they've gone, you know, parts of it resonate with me. It all resonates for me. What is something that they can actually go and implement or what? Like do they, how do they go and find someone to help with this? Like. Yeah, what are the next steps they should do?

Speaker B: Well, next step for sure to do is simply in your awareness of understanding that burnout is an individual problem. It can be symptomatic of something outside of work. Is practice good listening with your employees is to foster a culture in which they feel open to sharing with you. Not all the personal details of their life though, as it pertains to them getting done what they need to get done. Allowing people autonomy in as much as they're able to enables them to exercise the balance that they need. So for example, allowing people some flexibility in their schedule, just trusting people to manage their own lives and to show a general care that they're doing well. Most people given their own resources will self manage self care and self advocate. But because of the narratives we have in our offices, people don't tend to feel safe safe to do so. So empowering them to be self advocates, um, in whatever makes sense to the culture of your firm. So I think every firm starting from somewhere different, but kind of do an internal analysis with, do maybe an internal focus group say, how are we doing on this? How do we feel we're allowing people to, to exercise healthy habits, healthy lives. So doing a little bit of an internal audit might be a first step.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, I think the advice is, is, is lead by example. You know, I think if you're a firm owner listening to this or, or you have team members reporting to you is be the best version of yourself and lead by example because you won't have to say much if they see you doing that, but if they see you doing the opposite, then they're literally going to probably follow you because they think that is the path. So be the example that people want to follow and these days, Lynette, so what are you spending? You're obviously no longer, you've, you've exited out of the business. Um, you're no longer, uh, being in an auditor or in the industry. What are you doing now?

Speaker B: So now I am doing public speaking and coaching and training on these topics on burnout in particular, just increasing burnout literacy. I've got some webinars and podcasts, um, guest slots like this one lined up for 2025. I'm, I'm just launching my official business just this week. So, um, if anybody would like to work with me, I'd love to chat with anyone. But really getting the burnout literacy piece out there is so, like, dear to my heart. I think oftentimes because we're good self advocates, when we're given a chance to be. When people hear what burnout is and what the symptoms are, they go, oh, that's me, or oh, that's Kelly across the hall, or, oh, that's so and so. And we want to help. It's just that we don't have the language for it yet. So increasing the literacy about it is my goal for this year and my coaching practice.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, we're 100% behind that. I think that it's a critical topic that needs to be spoken about, which is why you're on the podcast today. And I highly recommend firms, you know, focus. And I say this with every episode that we do is people are your biggest asset. If you want a high performing team, then you need to lead them to be high performing. And, you know, understanding this topic, while it may not be sexy and you know, getting money in your pockets that you think right now it is such a critical thing because it will help you in ways that you just can't imagine. And I think that's the exciting part. So, Lynette, thank you for sharing your story. I know it's not always easy telling stories like that, so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, your story, and I'm super excited to see where you take the second career of yours or the second phase of your career, because you know it, you love it, you're in the industry, you want to make an impact to the industry, and I'm excited to see where you go from here. So thanks for your time today and, um, coming on the show.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Nick. It's always a pleasure to speak to like minded individuals who want to make the profession really thrive.

Speaker A: Awesome. And for anyone that wants to reach out to Lynette, the details will be in the show notes so that you can see where best to contact her. So thanks again, Lynette.

Speaker B: Thanks, Nick. It's been great.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on socials so you don't miss the next episode.