How to Scale to 30x: Srikanth Iyer & Vivek Mehta on "Wartime" vs. "Strategic" Growth Code

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hi everyone. So we are at the first uh, podcast of the exchange with a capital X. The X stands for the contradicting view on the same way how we approach businesses, how we approach life, how we approach different aspects. The exchange is hosted by Credix and uh, thanks to our uh, Credix team for hosting this. Uh, myself is Manish, I'm founder and CEO of Credix and I have with me two of the finest gentlemen, Shikant who runs Homeland. Uh Homeland is uh, basically which does a lot of your interior decoration stuff and uh, I have also with me Vivek who uh, runs Urban Ladder. Urban Ladder is now part of the Reliance Group and that's where the contracting uh, contradictory view will come up. Thanks gentlemen, thanks for coming here and welcome to the show. Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having us Manish. Thanks.

Speaker C: Happy to be here.

Speaker B: So I was just talking to Vivek and uh, apparently me and Vivek lives sort of across the road and we came like you know, one hour traveling to beating the Bangalore traffic for the podcast. So thanks, thanks Vivek and thanks Shikant uh for coming here. Uh, so question gentlemen. Um, you know you both have sort of a startup world. Uh, Urban Ladder, Homeland, both are startup, uh, but took completely two different approach. Uh, Homeland remain uh, promoter driven. Still promoters owns most of the shares while Urban Ladder has been acquired by Reliance. So want to understand, you know how uh, and you Srikanth has worked in uh, previously in other startups also you're a serial entrepreneur. Um you Vivek has also worked in different companies in Amanthes and uh, Calaway. So how is, you know, if you guys can give me some kind of a view in terms of. Because a lot of youngsters keeps on, on coming and saying I want to do startups but at the same time life is pretty beautiful even at uh, not doing a startup. My wife loves her 9 to 5 job. So you know what's, what's there's nothing wrong with it. So just wanted to understand from you

Speaker A: two gentlemen, uh, so with your permission I'll go first. Okay. Uh, so I will be a little biased I must admit because I've been entrepreneur now for about 33 years. This is my fourth startup. Uh, I started my first one when it was not called startup, it was just called a business and there was no venture capital funding. Uh, by the way, at home Lane, just to correct, uh, just to put facts there, it's a majority owned by investors. Even now, even though obviously it's still operator run which is that me and my co founder and the team runs the business. But yeah, we have raised a lot of uh, venture capital. That's a different story. But coming back to the original question, I think that frankly if you think you have the right mindset then you probably should start up is my feeling. In fact, I keep encouraging everyone, uh, even I have two sons, uh, I have unsuccessfully tried so far to encourage them to get into startups on their own. Um, but I do think that the risk and reward is loaded towards the entrepreneur if you have the right mindset. And that's exactly what you said. Manish, your wife loves the 9 to 5 job. There are many people. My wife also works for a tech startup now. She loves 9 to 5 job. So she would, I can never think of her starting up also. But that's okay. I mean there's nothing wrong in it. It's just that, you know, each one, uh, do whatever is right for them. Uh, I think for somebody like me, I've always felt that I would prefer to take a little more risk and try and hopefully get a little more reward. Uh, so if you think you have that attitude and if you think you have that perseverance. I also think perseverance is a very underrated, you know, uh, quality in entrepreneurs. People talk about genius and many things, technology. But end of the day if you don't have the perseverance, I think you will not last the marathon. And every, every startup is a marathon. Don't think it's a 100 meter race. Yeah, it's, you have to run as fast as you run 100 meters but you have to run 42 kilometers. So really that's the, you know, kind of mindset that you need to come up with if you are really building a brand. Like for example, both of us are building something in the consumer space. I think minimum, you need like 8 to 10 years to build something decent. Minimum. So I don't want any entrepreneur who's thinking about starting up to think that overnight success, there is no overnight success. It's whatever happens, happens after 10 years of hard work.

Speaker B: So the overnight success takes at least 10 years become overnight.

Speaker A: So I think if they are ready for that, then I would say if you have the attitude, if you have the perseverance, if you are willing to devote that time, then why not you should. And obviously if you think you have a great idea. Yeah, that's the fourth one. Uh, yeah, why not? You should start up. I would encourage everybody to start up.

Speaker B: Makes sense.

Speaker C: We cure you. No I think just uh, adding on to what Srikanth said I think uh, it's really to. It's an individual choice. You know um, I've been part of startups and I've been part now part of a larger organization, one of the largest in the country. I think there's things that you can do which are exciting in both places. You know it's. I don't agree that it's only the startup which gives you the rush and the you know the thrill of a kind uh, of a roller coaster ride. You get as much of a ride. It's not always just a 9 to 5 in a large corporation as well. You know. Now since we have been part of um, Reliance, uh it's a different little different but in a lot of ways it's still a business. The core principles still remain the same. The hunger and the drive are still important. The perseverance and the resilience is still important. You have good and bad days still though yes there is a little security of being backed by a large strategic uh organization. But I think uh it's an individual choice. I think both have enough to offer to individuals as per their individual choice.

Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. In fact uh, I worked almost 13 years in banks and after 13 years last 12 years in startup and uh, I feel that there is a lot of ups and downs right. And uh, what people forget in startup is there will be down.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh and what happens during the down is it's become very difficult if you're not passionate about it. So I call it the itch problem which is like you know when you are in class 9 10th, 11th, 12th there is something called a mathematics problem which you know, you know that you are about to solve it but you are not able to solve it. And that itch keeps you awake in the uh like 4am 5am and you are like thinking you are not able to sleep if you don't have the itch. Ah then don't start because when the down come you will able to hear what right. A lot of these questions keeps on happening in mind. So I totally agree with both of your point in terms of yes if you have something then startup but life is even good in corporate and corporate world is also does. I remember spending 56 hours uh continuously in office uh when I was in city. So why not? There's nothing called 9 to 5 so yeah good perspective. So Srikanth over to you. Um, I always feel that uh this home interior segment uh is very fractured and uh, even though people Promises a lot of things. The entire use case of maintaining the SLA is very, very difficult. Uh, you have done it wonderfully. Liftspace has done in the same space. Uh, I generally think that the, uh, North Star is Urban Cloud, which literally did the SLA of something. Which you can't think of how exactly you do that kind of stuff in terms of how you maintain the sla so that people will say that, no, I'm not working with a contractor, but I'm working with Homeland.

Speaker A: Sure. So there are actually, uh, two or three aspects to this. So let me just, uh, maybe circle back a little bit and then say why we started it all. First of all, what I saw was when we were. When I had finished with my. When I was finished with my last startup and I was thinking of what to do next, one of the things that came up was home interior. Um, I was already seeing companies like Urban Ladder, like Pepper Fry, who were already selling sofas, uh, cots, dining tables, and doing very well. Um, and a. I thought, you know, this market is already taken, so let me muje udad to gusnahi nahi hai. Uh, but I was also thinking saying, you know what? Not when anyone buys a house in India, you get only the warm shell, you get flooring, you get painting.

Speaker B: Correct?

Speaker A: Right. So I said, who's solving that problem? I mean, that problem was still being solved by the unorganized market predominantly. Uh, while for the products you had a solution like, uh, you know, one ladder and a pepper fry for the product plus services, as I call it, and the larger ticket size, there was no organized solution. So I said, you know, why not attempt to do that? Um, and, uh, said that we would do it now. Okay, so how are you going to be different from the unorganized market? So one of the things that came up was predictability was supremely low when you deal with the unorganized market. Predictability, Because it, like, it's like, you know, it keeps growing as the project keeps growing also. So we said, if we can solve for these things in terms of predictability, then there is really a business and a brand waiting to be built. And that's what we said we would focus on. From the beginning, we were very, very clear ours is a very different business compared to the products business. In the products business, for example, first you make the product and then you have inventory and then you sell. Uh, but in ours, we don't have any inventory at all because you only start making the product once the customer decides on the fabric color on the cushion. Typ everything else and then only you start making it. So there's no question of you having inventory because Inventory, right. So that's really the way we started with in terms of SOPs. What we have done is there are very three distinct phases to any interiors project um, in the world. One is the initial design phase, the second one is the manufacturing phase and the third one is the installation phase. These are very, very, very distinct phases. In the design phase what we have ensured is we use a lot of tech to make that journey a lot more transparent, a lot more visual for the consumer. So. Uh, once the kitchen is installed or once the uh, bedroom is installed or whatever, the wardrobes are installed, which was not there before, obviously with the unorganized market you don't get. So one is distinctly in the design phase make it a much more pleasurable experience. Now what we threw along with that is also predictability. So we have a software platform called Spacecraft where not only can you see visually but you will also be able to see the price of what you're building. So it's like Lego blocks, you're building a kitchen. As you keep putting boxes one on top of the other, the price keeps changing. M. So you know, very transparently for that matter.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: So uh, but that is really what we built. So on the design phase, on the manufacturing phase is pretty much it's a solved problem. I think many people have done it really well where you know, you have large factories which have, you know, very, very efficient supply chain which does the manufacturing, which we also do. So we have not done anything earth shatteringly different there, to be very brutally honest. And on the last one is where the really the rubber hits the road which is the installation phase because that's where the customer interface there. What we ensured and did was we ensured that the same SOP was followed. Irrespective of which city. We are in 40 cities today, irrespective of which city you buy a Homeland product from or a design Cafe product from, the SOP will be the same. And the same SOP will be followed by the installation team.

Speaker B: You train your team to make sure that they are all are trained and

Speaker A: SOP and all the way, the way that we do this is we decentralize it, we want to make it efficient, but we also want to make sure that the SOPs are followed very in a very rigid fashion. So what we do is we divide, let's say Bangalore is a large city, we divide Bangalore into few zones and each zone is given to an installation partner. So we don't have to deal with hundreds of partners across the like an uh, urban company for example, we have fewer to deal with for the 40 cities because smaller cities, ah, so we have, and we also give them bulk uh business so they also obviously hear what we are saying. So these three phases we take care one using technology, the second using, you know, it's a solved problem. And the third one, we have very strict SOPs implemented with partners based on that. That whole journey is stitched together for our customers. So broadly that's how we have attempted to solve this problem.

Speaker B: Understood. And Vivek Urban Ladder, I remember, I don't remember any furniture brand before Urban Ladder. So for me I was just speaking outside, right. I told you I used to love Urban uh, Ladder, right? How everything gets folded. I still love that concept of how they fold a sofa into a box and then they used to ship that. So the first thing I ordered from Urban Ladder is a sofa and it came in a box. And my parents was there and they were saying that some boxes. Am I saying m. And the guys like absolutely installed it and took every uh, aspect like I love that entire experience. And furniture brands was more like furniture, furniture Shop furniture, some furniture, some all version of different furniture. Ramwala Furniture, Agarwal Furniture Shop. So Urban Ladder for me was the first sort of brand and going back to what Shikant said. So you have sort of uh, uh, created that sop. But the good part is you are still not customer facing. You did it at your centralized factory level and then you move back to the customer. So before customer sees the product, you already seen the product and did the QC part of it. So just wanted to compare how things were in terms of.

Speaker C: While I agree that a lot of our business is still inventory led, we build the product and then sell it to the consumer, unlike what Srikanth said. But there's a lot of consumer input that goes in, in designing and bringing these products to life, you know. And uh, the position that Urban Ladder took, unlike some of the other uh, players in the market was, you know, one key consumer insight is buying furniture is not an easy experience. You know, India store sizes are not too large and it's not even very organized where you can go to these three stores and find what you're looking for. Time and again our consumer research has revealed. So we decided while furniture is a very long tail category by definition, we took a position that we'll make it easy for the consumer by curating a set of products which is obviously driven by consumer Input. Consumer centricity is the core of what we do. Um, while there is not like, you know, but consumer input. So we decided to have a fairly tight range which would include things which would kind of sell in volume and things which really make a statement. And you need both in a portfolio of brand. So that's the position we took. While we do have inventory model in play and uh, there is working capital involved. But over the years what we have been able to realize is if you do enough research upfront, listen to the consumers, listen to your store guys, then you can come up with the assortment which is highly curated and can appeal to the target segment that you are trying to reach out to. And the inventory which can look like a burden for a lot of businesses can become an asset. You know, if you have the right curation, the right product and it's available in the right places, then to me today inventory is an asset more than a burden. And the consumers love us for this. A lot of our consumers, uh, we do see, you know, like yourself you mentioned, in fact I was talking to somebody yesterday, there's still a lot of product brand love and that has come from the product. With the quality that we have offered over the years, the store experience we have been able to give to the consumer. You go to a neighborhood carpenter shop experience and then the delivery and the installation experience that you also spoke about. We have tried to kind of solve problems in each of these stages. The discovery phase where our website and our shopping tools help the consumer visualize the product in their homes. So the experiential part in our experience centers and then finally the last mile delivery and the delivery and installation part. So when I look back and say could I have, you know, should it have been any different? Should we just do all make to order? We do have some part of our business which is made to order as well, uh, which is very inventory light. Especially in sofas like this. People would like to change the fabric. Three seater ga, two seater ga, you know, um, different sizes, heights, back heights, all of those configurations we have. So that has taken some part of the inventory out. But uh, with the model today, I think uh, we are in a good place uh, where um, our inventory turns are healthy. Even though we are operating in a very long tail category, we have been able to tame it in a way that we are able to address the needs of the consumer and looking at inventory as an asset more than a burden.

Speaker B: Nice, Nice. So shifting gears, Urban ladder is startup. Started as startup, now acquired by Reliance. So I'm m assuming the culture of the company is still startup. Now there is a big brother who comes and say hey, you have to behave uh, and work in a certain way and this is my way of doing things and your way of doing things will not work. And I always say that no matter how large or small the company comes, uh, the culture of the company is always driven by promoters. Right. So if Tata it's still jrd. Tata's uh, like has driven culture is still there in Tata. So how are you, you know, sort of your team is aligning to it and how difficult or how easy it is to you know align on, on that front.

Speaker C: I think it's a, interesting shift for sure. Um, the way I look at it it's a, you know we get a little bit of the best of both worlds in a lot of ways we are still an independent brand. Uh, we do enjoy the freedom that we still get being part of such a large conglomerate to make choices for the brand which are right for the brand. Product choices, supply go to market choices, supply chain choices. So even though we are part of a larger organization doesn't mean that we are kind of um, directed or constrained in any way in terms of um, any key right decisions for the business. Uh that being said we also get to learn a lot from the size and scale that Reliance has built over the years. Reliance Retail as you know is the largest retailer in India and not just by uh, a small margin, by a large, large margin. We have 20,000 stores across the country. So there's a playbook that Reliance has created over the years and uh, as a startup urban ladder was obviously made some mistakes along the way. Uh but there's a lot of learning that has come to us um after becoming part of Reliance. There's some best practices but then as with any change.

Speaker B: Now in a Reliance kind of a culture. Login Karna how are you managing that?

Speaker C: So change, you know I won't uh, deny for folks who kind of transitioned from the previous, the pre Reliance to post Reliance, there are changes that have happened. Some people registered it, some people embraced it. The way I see it is Koibi change. Hota Thora Sato change management. You know you change companies, there's a change in culture, you change cities, change houses, change countries. I moved from the US to India but um, I think now everybody has gotten used to it. They do see uh, the benefits that come as being part of a large conglomerate. And at the same time there are some policies, HR policies, administrative policies which obviously we have to adhere to being part of a larger conglomerate net net. If I have to look back, there's some give or take, uh, positives and negatives, but overall for the business we are in a, you know, after being part of uh, Reliance, we are in a much better place right now as a business. Healthier, larger, stabler. So you know, if I reflect back, I think it's been a good transition and uh, it's going good so far.

Speaker B: You, you. I think I've read somewhere that you want Homeland to go ipo. Sir,

Speaker A: sometimes I ask you are now

Speaker B: a profit making, right? Yeah, profit making. Why? Like I met one of my friend who said analyst preparation. Every quarter I have to like stand in front of mirror to assume that analysts, what questions analysts will ask and I have to answer them. So are you sure you are ready for that?

Speaker A: So frankly we are not in any earth shattering hurry to go and uh, listen, uh, we have ambitions of going public. There's no doubt about it. I've spoken about it even earlier. We still do have. Because I do think that uh, the ultimate uh, destination or a start of the journey, uh, is when you are in the public market and when you know everything is. Everybody has a right to comment on everything that you do, which is okay. I mean it's a very transparent way of running a business in a way if you actually take a look at it.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: I mean Reliance is listed for so many years. I mean it's the darling of the uh, you know, of the BSE and the nsc. So uh, for many, many years now. So there are, there are some benefits obviously to it. Only thing is you have to be ready for the long haul. Um, I mean, um, we are very, very clear that that is our default path and that's the way that we want to go. But we are also clear that we want to do it at the right time. So we want to get to a stable, profitable and growth state and then only list because the one thing that we are seeing, and obviously all of us are seeing is companies which are delivering predictability. Again, like uh, how Homelain was started. Predictability in terms of results are being rewarded and companies which are not delivering predictability are actually being dinged quite a bit. So we do not want to be in the latter category, hopefully. And we would uh, try our best to be in the former category.

Speaker B: Where do you think maybe acquisition would be a better outcome than ipo?

Speaker A: So we did that. In fact, I actually wanted to answer the question that you asked Vivek. I have a very simple rule and if I may, in terms of. I've done about five acquisitions just at Homelane, by the way, in my previous business, in the EdTech business, I did one, two or three acquisitions and if I may dare say so, most of them were successful in terms that the founders were in the lock in for about two years typically. And they all on an average stayed at least for four years, which to me is the main benchmark of it being a success or not kind of thing. Uh, didn't happen. And that will not happen unless it's voluntary. Right? Because after two years, uh, so I have one simple rule, okay? It's actually just a simple or far greater than brand because like for example, we have a design cafe brand which we acquired a year back. I'll give you an actual example. We are running home lane. We are competing brands. We still compete by the way. We have very, very all intentions of running both the brands forever. Right? But if it comes to a conflict situation where you need to choose, then you choose the Org and not loyalty to your brand. Actually is very, very simple rule. M M. If there is a conflict at all.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And there will be. There will be. There should be also actually. But when, if it comes to that, please look at rule number one, as they say, which is Org greater. Greater. Greater than brand. You cannot say Homeland is more important or does NKFA is more important. M. It's the Org which is more important. And you follow that rule, you'll be fine.

Speaker B: Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker A: Same thing I'm assuming for the Reliance, right? I mean it's not about UL or I mean hundreds of companies that Reliance runs. It's the org.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: Org matters first if org has a policy of 9 to 6 or whatever. Too bad, man. That's what it is.

Speaker B: Makes sense.

Speaker A: That way it's quite simple. It becomes quite crystal clear, right? Black and white. There's no gray area. So sorry, coming back, you were asking me about something which I forgot now.

Speaker B: Um, acquisition and ipo.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we clearly are looking at the acquisition route. Um, we are looking to acquire companies like I said, in the Homeland business, we've acquired about five companies in the last 11 years. Uh, we are looking at more. Um, we will consider strong companies which are adding to the bottom line, uh, at least not taking away from the current, uh, profitability that we have managed to get to, um, and add to our top line in adjacent areas. So take furnishing for example. Uh, we don't want to get into businesses where the supply chain is completely different. Like for Example, the products business has got a reverse supply chain as we call it, compared to what we do. So we are really. We work with Amal. In fact we buy products from them and sell. We work with Wakefield, we buy products on that. So we have partners whom we work with.

Speaker C: With.

Speaker A: We don't want to get into those this one because we feel it's a very different business and they are very good at doing it. So we are very happy to work with them. In fact we have been working with UL for quite a few years, I think maybe seven, eight years at least now, uh, and selling their products. So uh, we prefer to do that in some areas. In some areas we don't mind looking at acquisitions and we have been actively considering for quite some time now. We'll continue to consider. Right now there's nothing on the table, but you never know.

Speaker B: Makes sense. Makes sense. So let's talk about competition. You mentioned Design Cafe was a competition. I think Live Space is like a better sort of a benchmark here in terms of. And uh, there are a lot of new D2C brands are also keeps on coming in terms of. And with Instagram everything. It's becoming too much. There are a lot of uh, designers who are uh, now very Instagram heavy. Keep on showing in Instagram. Hey, this is the interior I have done and I can do interiors and designing and execution. How threatened you are feeling with the competition and what's your take on competition as such?

Speaker A: So if you actually see our ah, business it's mainly about personalization.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Okay. And if you actually see what Homeland does, at least I don't want to talk about lip space. We are actually counterintuitive. We do less personalization. But I have always believed that if you want to build for scale, you need to have a cookie cutter approach. You need to have a productization approach. Otherwise you cannot scale.

Speaker C: Scale.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: This business, if you see it's bespoke by nature. It's bespoke.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You want your own Merawala blue, correct? I don't know. I saw it in a friend's house. I don't want that blue. I mean, you know, that's the thing that you may want to go with. So you will want to customize it to the nth degree and that's what the designer needs to be capable of doing. So in a way, if you see this is perfect for a uh, architect or an interior designer, good interior designer who can listen to you, understand your needs and completely customize your house for you. I mean this is really? So it suits a, uh, mom and pop business quite well. If you are a good listener, if you are a good architect, if you are a good engineer, you can be successful, which is great because the depth of this market is immense. It's immense. It's a 30 billion sized market. I'm talking only interior. M. Only in India. Right. So the more the merrier, according to me. And it is required because that's not a market that we serve. Uh, we don't serve a market which asks for significantly bespoke solutions because you cannot scale that. Ah, I'll give you a couple of examples. When I started this business, I was literally dumbstruck because we started getting orders worth 3 crores, 5 crores, 6 crores every month. M. When I didn't expect it, I was expecting to do like slow and steady progress. The reason was we were accepting anything and everything a customer wanted. One customer came and said, you know what? My son loves to play music. Can you make his cot in the shape of a piano? Um, That's a different matter. Uh, but the fact of the matter is that that's what the customer aspiration is for. The bespokeness of the solution. You cannot scale that solution. Can you imagine making, you know, handmade this one? So a, two, three, uh, ground routes. I decided, one, we won't do customization beyond the point. Um, two, we won't do certain things. Like we used to do flooring. We used to do civil. Ah, we used to do painting. We used to do everything. Basically we said, no, we will only stick to modular furniture for now. We started with that. So we said, we need to be clear on what we don't want to do. That was one point which I was super clear about. Uh, and then colors even in what we were doing. Why should I offer 1500 colors? You don't have to become Henry Ford and say, I can give you whatever color you want as long as it's black. But you can say, I can give you 50 colors. That's what we started with. Whereas competition was giving 2,000 colors. I said, it's okay if they want, if they want so much bespoke. If they want so much, let them go to a different player. What we will be known for will be quick, efficient, and value for money. Very, very predictable turnaround time. If I need predictable turnaround time, I can only work with 50 colors. If I work with, with 5,000 colors, I will have less predictability, obviously. So that was the thought process. So kind of came to what we now call A limited catalog. I in fact call it less is more. You make the catalog lesser so that you can serve more customers. Because I do believe that when the, uh, decision is between getting infinite choice but no predictability and finite choice with great predictability, Indian customers will choose this with its finite choice with great predictability. That's what kind of tilted it. That was actually a pivot for us about a year into the business. And from then on we haven't looked back. Sorry, long answer.

Speaker B: No, makes sense. Same question. You have a lot of competition now, right? There is one end where you have Pepper Fry of the World, which is a massive inventory LED model. Uh, then there is, uh, another end. There is Stanley's of the World, which is a super high luxury kind of end thing. And then there is a lot of people in between. And then there is your, uh, neighborhood furniture store who is always can do things whatever they have been asked to. How you are managing your competition and what, what makes you like, be awake in the night saying that? Okay, competition.

Speaker C: No, it's a. You know, we say in our category, um, the tailor is gone, but the carpenter is still around. You know, we have all moved to branded apparel, but, um, the carpenter is still very much around. So in our category, we still have a lot of unorganized play, a lot of Carpenter play. Almost 70, 80% of the 30 billion nod category is still unorganized. So adding on to what Srikanth was saying, you know, there's enough and more for everybody to go after. Uh, you mentioned earlier that Urban Ladder was probably the first brand that registered in your brain, like as a furniture brand.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And there's only a handful right now. You know, um, the good part about the space that we have taken, uh, and we feel pretty good about the space we have taken because we've got the operating model right with that. You know, we've got some of the brands like Stanley's, who are really in the luxury part. We operate in what we call the mid premium zone. Uh, we've got other brands which operate, which are selling on the Amazons and the Flipkarts, which are kind of value brands. Uh, uh, what we stand for is design authority backed with great product and quality and Uskilie. You know, in fact, I like what, uh, Srikanth, you said. You know, giving too much variety is actually a very bad thing for the consumer. It gets too difficult to make a decision. It's a paradox of choice. You know, you give choice. So we've kind of come to that. And, uh, some of our Competitors have a different point of view on this. Uh, so the position that we have taken, and this is again based on some research that I recently kind of which validated this thought as well. Furniture buying value for money discovery in this category is very difficult. And who's to say so far 30,000. You go to a, uh, boutique here in Indiranagar, they'll charge 1 lakh rupee for the same sofa that we might be selling for 50,000.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: So the price discovery, the product discovery is very, very difficult. So we took that position that we'll bring fair Play in this category. We'll bring design boutiques, Design authority catalog with the fair price, which is really a problem that the consumer faces today. If you have to buy a new sofa and a dining t, you will be choosing between going to some designer boutique just may some product might be imported from China, um, unique, and then you don't know what you're paying for. So we have taken that and the consumer has responded very well to that thesis. We have seen, uh, time and again I meet people, friends, family who show there's so much love for the brand, for the product that we've created over the last several years. So we feel we are still sitting in a very good position in the minds of the consumer. We have established Urban Ladder as a brand that holds that design authority and still is a nationwide, uh, brand available across omnichannel presence. So we tick a lot of boxes that are typically there in the minds of a working professional. And another interesting factoid, uh, is, you know, if you were probably living in your hometown, let's say in Bihar, most likely your dad Chacha, uh, everybody would know this is the furniture. When you move to a new city, you don't know where to go. You want to rely on a brand that can give you a promise, that can uh, deliver a product which you feel reflects you, who you are as a person. And that position I think we have been able to capture very well. The urban folks, the working folks who are looking for um, some kind of a fair price with a uh, design that they can be proud of is where we operate. And in terms of uh, price positioning, I think there's enough and more space between the luxury brands and the value brands. The middle space is pretty much a, um, lot of room for uh, growth there.

Speaker B: I agree. I totally uh, uh, agree with you. Less is more. Uh, in fact, uh, yesterday my tech team asked, and we are a finance company, so my tech team asked that should we make something in tech, that if you get money Tomorrow you have to pay X, but if you want today you have to pay X plus Y. Say boss. Itna choice. So I agree to your point. Right. Sometimes choices are not good because choices just makes you confused as a consumer that what I need to do in terms of it. So I will again switch gear and uh, Mishikant, you spoke about, uh, tech using tech and all and uh, wants to address the elephant in the room, or rather it's elephant in the entire world is the AI. So how are you using AI? Or are you using AI? Or do you think AI is a bubble? We don't want to use it. What's your take?

Speaker A: So some of the areas that we work in has been, uh, clearly already been impacted by AI, uh, uh, and will get even more impact. And I'll give you actually one, uh, or two examples. One of them is a funny one. Real story, by the way. Way. So, uh, when a customer comes to us first, what we ask for is their floor plan. And we tell them. Floor plan though. Or, you know, you know, uh, put it on, uh, agentic AI and you will get the design out in 90 seconds or maybe even less. Previously we used to say

Speaker B: M.

Speaker A: So fair enough, that was what was to be. So now when we can give the design in instantaneously, literally, uh, customers started saying immediately, you know, so you know what we were, uh, thinking of doing, we said, okay, but you know, the consumer is like that. And I'll tell you an actual story. This is something that I heard. I mean, obviously I don't know A.R. rahman the musician, but A.R. rahman composed music for this movie called Tal. We've all heard, right? Fantastic music. I'm sure we all. I love most of the songs in that. So the story goes that Subhash guy obviously was charged an arm and a leg because that time Rehman was at his peak. Unlike now where he's not at his peak, maybe. So the story goes that he composed a very, very nice song, um, explained the situation to him and all that. M. Okay, that actually song became a super hit in Tamasha. Same song was used in Tamasha. Not obviously, but Rahman only, but not Subhash Guy. Uh, actual song. Um, I, I mean, I don't want to spoil your podcast by trying to sing it, but. But, you know, that song was actually used in Tamasha and it was a super hit. Again, the point I'm trying to make is that as Indians we feel, you know, I want you to, you know, give me some effort. Show me some effort.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Uh, so there are some, I don't know, mindsets that we need also as consumers to change. And I can tell you one thing, one year from now I can predict this. The customer will want the design in 30 seconds. In 60 seconds we'll say. The same customer will say okay, but that is what we need to be ready for. I can't blame the customer for it because customer's mindset will change. It is dependent on what he's getting outside. Previously none of us thought 10 minute delivery we want.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Huh. So that's really the thing. So we are also looking at various things like that and trying to use AI for example in design it's significant. The impact in installation not so much.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: So we are not using it there, um, in predictability in terms of uh, what raw material we need to order, when we need to order, etc. For the factory. Yes, yes, very much. Uh, but those were all solved problems. This was not like AI has not come and changed the game, but definitely in design it has. So the short answer to your question is in some areas we are leaning a lot more on AI. In some areas we are not because we don't have solutions that are earth shattering yet.

Speaker B: Right, right. And Weapke Reliance has said that we are now AI intake.

Speaker C: No, no. That being said, uh, you know I think uh, I personally look at uh, the value that AI has started to deliver for us and will be delivering for us in the short term in a very positive way. You know Hamari, one of the main problems, you know when you go to a store in India especially we have stores which are 5, 6, 10,000 square feet. Obviously we cannot house the whole collection there. That's 1 and 2. A lot of times Samara Consumer family, Our store guys are trained to help them and all of that. But everybody wants that to see that visualization. And when they're shopping online they want a more consultative approach. Right. Category Sony product. So we initially a few years back we took a stab at AR VR. You see it on Amazon's as well. But adoption. I don't know how many times do you use AR VR that Amazon it's kind of clunky and for us we have that capability but I don't think the usage is as good. But we feel ache and especially with generative AI coming in, uh, online consultation through the AI Banda Bolekhi. I have a blue carpet at home and my walls are green in color. What do you recommend or what sofa will go with this coffee table? What are the coffee tables? That you would recommend with this because everybody is trying to create a look m and that 2 minute 30 second answer is going to be great for us because that's what we struggle to visualize sometimes in the minds of the consumer. And, and coffee table. How will this coffee table look with your existing sofa, with your existing furniture? I think it's a great problem that exists today and uh, AI will help us a great deal. So there's active work underway on that. Um, I hope we are able to solve this problem in a meaningful way unlike some of the previous attempts we have made, but uh, fairly happy with how it's going to be.

Speaker B: I remember uh, almost third, fourth year engineering mostly uh, tech came forces, tcs, uh, companies and most of the guys used to say that

Speaker A: uh,

Speaker B: interiors.

Speaker C: Good.

Speaker B: So you know, maybe last final thoughts on you. What's your uh, you know, uh, what do you want to say to the young generation uh today who wants to let's say uh, start up or anything? Anything like what do you tell it to your uh, son like if 2.2 advices that you have to give to your uh, son that okay, uh, this is my learning across last 30, 35 years and I uh, want to give it to myself when I'm young, uh, which is now my son. So what two advices that want to give?

Speaker A: Sure. Uh, two things. One, if you are looking for a problem to solve, identify a problem that's large enough so that even if you solve a small part of the problem or you go deep and solve that problem, you will create a large business which is what you would end up doing hopefully. Second, uh, you don't need to be Einstein and solve every problem in every uh, in every business. Right? One simple insight. But sticking to that insight for a long period of time will actually give you more dividend than trying 100 different things in a short period of time. For example, my insight for a homeland was that if I offer predictability with lesser choice, more customers will prefer that than infinite choice with zero predictability. That's all. That was the only insight. Simple insight. It m feels logical right now but that time it didn't because everybody was offering infinite. So but I said no, we will go. That was the only. But I stuck to it. Now I now I can say after some 10 years after saying we will do finite catalog. Right. So I think perseverance has a lot of pluses. Have your insight and double down on insight. As long as you are sure about project. I think these are the two things that I'd Say.

Speaker B: So if you have to go back, let's say, you know, 10, 12 years back, would you have still started home?

Speaker C: Lane?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would have.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: No, nothing. No. No cucumber.

Speaker A: I mean, if not only, I would have started something else. I'm a generalist. I mean, I cannot design a house to save my life. Let me be clear. I have not bought, like my wife said when I started. Said you are starting an interior design business. Uh, m. So I can't m. But I'm clear of what? I don't know. Like I said, you know, uh, I don't know how to design. I'm not a designer. I am a business guy. So I. I want to look at consumer insight, I want to look at business, I want to look at commerce, I want to look at technology and see how we can marry all of that together, which will make something meaningful for the consumer. That's what I know how to do, which I think I know how to do. And that's what I will do. Given Kuch Veeranda.

Speaker B: Makes sense.

Speaker A: Sense.

Speaker B: Makes sense.

Speaker C: Vivek, Same question right now. You know, in fact, I get asked that question. My son just started college, uh, this past year, and he, uh, was asking, you know, computer science, you know, coding, and, uh. So with the world the way it's turning out to be, it's very becoming, very difficult to answer the question, what will become? What will be relevant in the future? He's just started college and, um, you know, we keep talking about it still. What should he focus on? Should he do maths and computer science to kind of be in line with where the AI world is going? Or should it be economics and finance? But it's a very difficult, uh, answer. Like, in terms of pure subject matter, first principles is what I go back to, you know, agay world will change very, very drastically. Elon Musk currency won't be there there, right? So we don't know how the world will evolve. So I think for the young folks, as long as they can have that critical thinking and, uh, first principles approach, the rules of yesterday may not be applicable in the new world. Creativity may not be as relevant in the new world. So we just need to go back to first principles and have that learning, agility, have that critical thinking and, and play along as the world evolves, uh, is what my recommendation would be to everyone. Don't kind of get too fixed on 10 years down the line that might not be relevant anymore.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I keep on saying the age of knowledge is shrinking so much that, uh, uh, maybe 10 years back, we used to say three years is the age of knowledge. Now it's like six months. You don't even know what will. Going to be there and, uh, not going to be there.

Speaker C: Here.

Speaker B: Uh, last question. Golf or cricket?

Speaker C: Being an Indian cricket, you know, it's very difficult. But I got into golf, uh, you know, started playing almost, uh. When. Uh, a little before I started Callaway. I started with Callaway in the US But I don't know if you guys are golfers, but it's one of the most addictive sports you'll ever play. And it's very unique in a lot of ways. You play against yourself, you keep your own scores. E Kachi short. Kebaad Bilkul Bhegar short. Great leveler of sorts. Right. Over the years I've played and I've really. And the good part is the longevity. I can probably play till I live, you know, as well. Uh, so cricket, uh, is, you know, cricket and uh, golf is, uh, hobby. I would say, you know, both. I can't choose between the two M.

Speaker B: Maybe cricket.

Speaker C: So that's a good way to put it, sir.

Speaker B: Tennis or cricket?

Speaker A: Uh, to watch. I think it would be a tie to play, surely. Tennis, cricket. Uh, but, uh, I play tennis every day. Even now I don't. Unfortunately. I haven't started golf, even though I got memberships. But I've gone there only twice for dinner till now. Haven't, uh, had the time because I think, uh, dedicating like half a day is. Is little difficult at this point in time. But yeah, hopefully someday I'll start. I've heard. I have a lot of friends who are like golf addicts.

Speaker B: Yeah. My brother is a golf addict now,

Speaker A: so I. I know it's a very active game. I've heard all of this. You play against yourself and it's a mind game. And gave all that, ah, I feel like I should play just. Just, uh, don't I. Once I am in it, I'm a one or zero guy. So once I'm in it, then I'll. I know I'll. I'll probably, uh, spend a lot of time. So right now I'm happy with tennis. I am now started. Recently started Padel also. I love Padel, actually. It's quite nice. I think, uh, little bit more on the longevity side. I think I can play for another 10, 15 years if I change to Padel.

Speaker B: So Jokowica or Al Karaj.

Speaker A: No, no, no question. Uh, I was rooting for him on Sunday. I'm glad he won.

Speaker B: Good, good, good. So, thanks. Thanks, gentlemen. Thanks a lot for taking time and, uh, discussing it. I really enjoyed it. I don't know about how you guys enjoyed it or not, but I learned a lot. And, uh, thanks a lot for, uh, coming to our podcast. Thanks a lot.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Really, really enjoyed the time. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank.

Speaker C: You.