From 6x National Champion to Fortune 500 Chief Audit Officer - Lori Kaczynski on Leadership and Resilience

More than 2 trillion payments flow through Atlanta every year, with an estimated 70 % of all U .S. credit card transactions touching the city. Yet... Most of business conversation is still centered on places like New York and San Francisco. This is a limited series where I'm sitting down in person with CFOs and senior finance leaders right here in Atlanta to learn about how they build their careers, what's working, what's different about doing it here, and get a better understanding of the humans behind the big titles. Let's get into it. Here with me today is Lori Kaczynski. Lori is a Senior Vice President, Chief Audit, Risk, and Compliance Officer at Graphic Packaging International. a Fortune 500 company headquartered right here in Atlanta, where she leads the company's global internal audit, compliance, and enterprise risk management functions. With more than 20 years of experience across industries and company sizes, Lori is a powerhouse in the Atlanta business community, chairing the advisory board of Kennesaw State University School of Accountancy and serving on the board of Sheltering Arms Early Education and Family Centers. She's been named one of the Atlanta Business Chronicle's Women Who Mean Business. Now let's get to it. Welcome to the show, Lori. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited to engage with you and learn from each other. Oh yeah, especially me because your background, your story and so many things we talked about off record. What brought you to Atlanta? Well, I was minding my own business and living in Northwest Canada and a gentleman came along who was an American and he happened to live in Atlanta at the time. He waited until I became single and then asked me to move. Wow. Patience. Yeah. He was extremely patient, extremely kind. I was a little too busy for him, but he waited and it all turned out brilliantly. So happy to be here. Yeah. So how was life back then? What were you doing? Oh, I had, I actually went to college as a mature student. Okay. My father had a seventh grade education. My mother had a 12th grade education. And I was born in a small town. The closest cities were about eight hours a drive. And the town had 5 ,000 people in it. And it's named after a fur trapping location. So the middle of nowhere kind of upbringing. And just based on their backgrounds, there was no coaching about college, no discussion about those kinds of careers or professions or business. And so but I knew I wanted something different than what I'd seen growing up. And I just didn't know how to get there and had no coaching. So I did some hourly jobs. was offered sort of management types of roles, retail, you name it, a variety of financial services location where we would process mortgages and car loans and things. Then I met my husband, had to wait for my green card. And once I got my green card, I applied to Kennesaw State University. But I applied to be a marketing major. So pivoted a bit along the way. But yeah, I had three brothers and sisters. I think... grew up with very little. It was a household where it was who gets the next pair of shoes this year, and we all had to live with what we had. Wow, that's amazing to where you are now, you know, an executive at a fortune ,500 company, but then you were also a competitive skater at some point. Yeah, well, there's lots of ice and snow there. So it kind of lends itself to that. But, you know, my brothers and sisters and I were in very close age proximity and I was the youngest. So you just go wherever they go. And so there was hockey and figure skating and speed skating. And certainly I... Had no choice. That's where we were. So I put skates on at one year of age and just started skating. But I speed skated for a long time. I thought and my goal was to get to the Olympics. That was also maybe another way to change my life and pivot from my origin story. But some things changed along the way that we'll talk about in a minute. But I love physical activity. And I like moving and I like being outdoors. So that was all things that lend itself to it. I naturally have a lot of strength. So it was a great sport for me and loved doing it. But I also am a very hard worker and that fits well with, you know, sports. I sort of fell into it, but I loved it. And I did it all the way up until something pivoted and I couldn't continue anymore. But I won six national championships and one North American championship as well. I had a national record for a certain distance as well. Did short track like Apollo Ono does, if you remember him from the Olympics. And I also did long track, which is what Eric Hyden and some of the other great skaters have done. But I had to pivot. And you'll notice my story has a lot of pivots. Yeah, let's talk about that first pivot first, because six national championships, amazing, okay? And especially when you said you started skating from the time you barely walked, like one year old. The African me is like, whoa, okay? We see ice, we go the other way. So what caused the first pivot for you? Yeah, so when I was 18, 19... Driving home for Christmas, I had moved to a small city and was driving home for Christmas, and we hit some black ice on a very wide curve. Happened to be driving a vehicle that was a little bit more top -heavy than most because we were going to bring some belongings back to our apartment. And the way the vehicle hit the snowbank, it just had snowed a lot. It was a high bank. The nose of the... Bumper went into the snowbank, and we flipped four times in four different directions for 100 feet. And they could measure what the vehicle did in the snow. And my leg was severely injured. And speed skating involves a lot of legs. So I had to sort of decide that that wasn't going to be an option anymore. And then it was about rehabilitation, to be honest. Back then, they didn't have all the amazing surgery options they have today. It was kind of stick everything back together and pray that I could walk. So it was a long time. I was on crutches for a very, very long time and then had a cane for two years. So, you know, at that point, it was about just getting well again. Wow. Now from this, like I can only imagine like what went through your mind. At that point, because you were still eyeing like the Olympic championship, like that was still where you wanted to go. What kept you going through all this? You know, the great thing about sport is it gives you resilience because you're not going to win every race. You're going to get disqualified sometimes. You're going to get pushed out of the race by somebody else or, you know, your edge on your skate. Edges are very important when you're skating on ice. you know, isn't strong that day or you skate over something on the ice and you fall, you've probably seen figure skaters have that happen at the Olympics. And so you learn to just be resilient. And I think my upbringing created that as well. I was a child of divorce as well. So, you know, at about the age of 12, they separated. The age of 14, I was sort of raising myself a little bit. They were loving, amazing parents. I have nothing to complain about. But distractions happen, right, when people's worlds fall apart. And I think that just creates a person that wants more, wants to find a place where you're safe and secure. And that kept you going, right? Because then you came here eventually and then you started, you wanted to do marketing. Why marketing first and how did you switch to accounting? Yeah, I always had loved numbers. I think I told you one of my hourly jobs was working for a financial services firm. found math interesting and easy and I like logic however I also wanted to do something that had a little bit more people interaction and I thought marketing could combine those skills and then I started at Kennesaw State University And I found that some of the classes, it seemed very intuitive to me. And I guess I like a challenge and a level of complexity in my life. I always tell every boss I've ever worked for, keep me challenged and slightly confused and I'll stay here. And so I really enjoyed the accounting classes and they came naturally for me. I'd had one hourly job where I sort of did all the company, well, actually two, where they figured out my skill set and I had done payroll and bookkeeping in the past. past. So it was kind of a natural transition. But I also had some fabulous, Kennesaw State is known for in their accounting school for the quality of their professors. They care more about teaching in many ways and the students than their research, which, you know, you could argue for both. But I had some fabulous professors that just said, you're a natural at this. This is where you need to be. And I trusted. their advice. And here I am today, still friends with some of those teachers. One of my teachers is actually the head of the School of Accountancy right now. Oh, wow. That is so cool. But you're still involved with Kennesaw State. Like since you left, you stayed connected. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think I find it very interesting. the interconnectivity between research, academia, and the application of how we use that knowledge and those skill sets in the real world. And Kennesaw State has a multi -billion dollar impact on the community here in Metro Atlanta. And it's very important to them and it's very important to the community. And so making sure that we are producing accounting students that the businesses find very useful and could be like you one day and be the next CFO. So it gives you the opportunity to talk. Talk about the curriculum at the university. What are we teaching them? Why are we teaching them that? What are the new graduates not have that they need to have? So, right, an interesting topic now is AI. Yes. Because how does that change what they're teaching? And so I'm assuming our next board meeting will cover that. But it's just been a wonderful, wonderful connection for me. And I actually started a scholarship there. for accounting students that maybe come from a background like mine didn't have the means didn't have the coaching to get there with ease um and i'm very excited about that so we give it out every year i think it's been going for six or seven years now and then i'm also on their um athletics association board which is very interesting because the tuition students pay funds the athletics programs and so it gives you a whole new view of the university and how it works and the president chairs that board so it's very very fun And then they have a center for internal audit that I'm also on that board and really gives me a lot of fun, a lot of interest. I don't have millions to hand back at this point in my life yet, but they honored me by inducting me into their business school, Hall of Fame recently, just because of all the time and effort I've done in giving back, mentoring programs. They have a women's program. I've mentored in that before as well. So I think just living with gratitude and giving back to your community helps you get these connections and make friendships. Like I think you will be now on my list. Yes, yes. love it and i love how it's it's coming like a full circle for you right with like the scholar the scholarship program you mentioned definitely on the athletics i would have never qualified i still won't qualify for anything athletic because i grew up the trebuchet would like food so oh always that way always happy um to hear that and understand the part when you said the application of what we learn in school because I feel like coming out of college I didn't feel well equipped for what was waiting for me yeah um I wasn't well equipped like and that was back then we're just gonna I'm 35 years old so back then I will come on and I wouldn't feel ready so I'm curious to hear from you like what do you think are the gaps that we that whether it's universities or employment like What are the gaps that we need to fill rather quickly to allow people to be more ready when they come out of college? Absolutely. I've always believed, and I think we talked about this a little bit in advance of this, you have to have strong soft skills. And those are the hardest things, I think, to teach people if they naturally don't have them. But you need to actually be able to speak verbally and be able to communicate effectively at every level in the organization, not just at the top. And then you have to be able to write well and make sure people can understand it. You don't want things to be misconstrued, right? In finance, we tell a story of how the business is performing or how safe it is, how the controls are working. And so I think those soft skills are very, very important. I think AI is going to change what's in the curriculum in the schools. I think AI is going to change some of how we in finance work. Right now, it appears to me that the tech companies that already have technology on their side, as well as the extremely large companies, are probably taking leapfrogs, where some of us are taking little smaller steps. But I don't know of anybody right now who's not trying to use AI in some way every day in their work that they're doing. And so for those of you who aren't, I think you should be. Until you experiment, you don't know what it can do. And I think the more you experiment, the more it learns. only gives you better answers over time. So I also have always believed we don't give accounting students enough IT types of skill sets so that you can understand the systems, right? You know, we used to talk for the last 15 years about everything going digital, right? That was every white paper you read was about the digital transformation and the digital journey. So if you don't understand all of that, it's very hard to do your job because everything is interconnected now. If it's not interconnected now, we have a manual control or a manual process that creates more risk of human error. And then AI is going to be very tricky with what I do as an internal auditor. And even for the external auditors, how do we prove to the SEC, the PCOB, that AI was tested well enough and the human looking at it actually had the requisite skills to make sure it gave the right. answer. So there's lots of things I think what we have in front of us that are going to change. I believe people will always be involved. I don't think you can, especially in our career lines, I don't think you can trust that AI will give the right answer. You have to have the skill set above it. So I think coming forward for academia as well as for us in business is how do we bring people up with the level of experience to look at the answer that AI has given them and know that it's right or have the detailed skills like you've seen them, CFOs and CEOs that can look at a man. management report and say, this has to be wrong. And you see other people in the room go, I don't understand. How did you pick that up so quick? It's because of those years of understanding the business. But I mean, I think this wasn't sort of built into your question, but I encourage everybody, be naturally curious. If you want to learn about that business and understand how it all works, you will be a better employee. You'll do better in finance. Even if you're just closing the books, that knowledge of the business, you will catch things. And in my line of work, what I always say to all the finance people within the organization is you're the final stop for making sure the financial statements are accurate and complete and tell the truth story and are transparent. And so raise your hand. Don't be shy. And I think finance people are the people who are going to keep the shareholders safe. Yes, I agree. And I like how you say our line of work, because I feel like within our line of work, we understand each other. And then you go out and you're like your CPA, you do taxes, like people really don't understand the breadth of what it is that we do. So I'm curious to hear when people hear you a chief audit officer, like what do they think you do versus what you actually do? My daughter's 24. My husband's my age. And I think only in the last five to 10 years have they learned what they think I do. You're right. It is a hard job to understand. You can't say I'm here to protect the shareholders, right? That's a very abstract comment. So in explaining it, sometimes people look a little... Bored, I'm going to be honest. But it, for me, has been a very, very exciting career. Because I don't audit with an enforcement mindset. I believe auditing is best when you're the business partner to the CFO, business partner to the chief accounting officer. They're going to tell you stuff, right? If you are their friend and their trusted advisor and they know that you're not going to do anything unexpected with the information they share with you, they are going to tell you about their problems, and then they will start coming to you. Really, internal audit, the way I view it, is an internal service to the organization as well as that back third line to protect all the shareholders who rely on those financial statements. But internally, we do advisory services as well. And the only way we get to do those fun projects is because they actually respect us and we work with them at all times. So that's why those soft skills, we're circling back there, are so important. I do not hire an internal auditor who can't have good verbal communication skills. And be able to transition those verbal skills between an hourly worker on a plant floor and sitting in front of the CFO. And that's early on. So I look for that when I hire them. And actually, my hope is that then they could go into the business and actually do business roles because they also have those soft skills. And I like how you said you don't use an enforcement mindset as opposed to a business partnering mindset. Can you give us an example of what you would have done differently if you were going as an enforcer, right? There's a situation I go in with my enforcement hat versus I go in the same situation but with a business partner hat. Yeah, I have worked once in an audit shop that was a little bit more of an enforcement mindset, and that was when I changed my mind about how it should be done. And what happens is it feels to the organization like we're doing something to them. It feels like we're forcing something on them. And then when you interview them, a lot of what we do is verbal, to be honest. We back it up with real data, but they will explain more. It will help you understand more, and you will then become a better auditor because they're willing to explain and give you the details. The other way you see it, so in that example, done well, the business finance head will call me and say, hey, I think I'd like you to go look at the inventory at XYZ location. I need your help. And so that doesn't happen at every audit shop, and it happens to us regularly. We add projects all the time that weren't anticipated. Our audit committee and board love it because then they know we have an open exchange of information with management. We still have to do our Sarbanes -Oxley testing and make sure every control is working and provide management's opinion on how well their controls are performing. I work a lot with the external auditors, but you can do all of that. in a very amenable way where everybody's getting along and everybody trusts each other and building that trust is so important right because now i feel like everybody in the finance organization We want them to be business partner. We want everybody to be at that business partner because when you go to school, you kind of taught the enforcement mindset of audit, like give me this paper, this paper, this paper. Let me check that all three matches are matching a certain way or who reviewed it. Like you tend to think that's how it should be, right? But I like how you said you change your mind and really use that business partner. And they're curious to see how you help. the rest of your team embrace that mindset. Yeah, I mean, three of the audit shops that I've led, I built. So it was easier in that situation to hire for the skills that we and the company deem appropriate. I'm big on, and you've probably heard this from other people you've spoken with or may believe it yourself, but I am big on culture fit. I always tell people when I'm interviewing them. This is a fit discussion. You need to ask me questions and make sure you're comfortable working with and around me and make sure you like our company and our culture. Because if you're not happy, you're going to leave. And we want somebody who wants to be here and stay here and is excited about the role and excited about what we do as a company. And I'm going to interview you for the same things. I think fit is really important. And that means everything from culture to aptitude to, you know, the people you're working with. This last audit shop I've built, it's been miraculous. They are all best friends. And it is so nice to see that on the unfortunate side, that means they're a little less eager to go off and work in the business roles because they really enjoy working together. But we've just somehow created this hardworking, focused, kind. culture where we each care about each other and know each other very well. So proud of them all. So proud of them. Good for you. And very inspiring, too, and says a lot about you as a leader. Now, being in your line of business, particularly, you have to tell things people don't want to hear. Like, that's a part of audit, whether external or internal, that we don't always talk about. Like, how do you... do that like how are you able to say stop doing this to somebody that's like a big head because you may be hurting the company in this way or that way like what helps you build that courage and keep that relationship afterward I call it political or organizational savvy okay at the top of the the pile I guess and what that means to me is you have to understand who all the players are what motivates them, who the key influencers are in the organization. And you have to be able to know that there are going to be times you take risk, to your point about your question, but that's what your job entails. That's what I'm accountable and responsible for working for a public company is to call the audit committee chair when I need to call the audit committee chair. I often set expectations with the CFOs that I've worked with of no surprises unless I have to, right? Meaning... almost every time i let the cfo know what i'm going to talk to the audit committee chair about before i do it or as i'm doing it there have been times i can't and those are tough conversations but to me this job requires high integrity i think all finance jobs do but i think this job requires the kind of integrity where you will put your job on the line to do the right thing and say the right thing to the right people but that's where the savvy of the organizational politics can kind of come in. If you've built these trusted relationships and business partnerships that I was talking about earlier, they know you're not doing it because you want to be mean or vindictive. They know that you're doing it because it's your job. And at the end of the day, they respect you for that. I've had board chairs call me and ask me to investigate high -ranking people and keep it secret, not even tell the general counsel. Right. It's a job. I always tell my bosses, it's a lonely job unless you have a lot of chief audit executive friends, because there's times where you just want to call somebody and say. What are you doing about this? And that gives you that glorious, and I will tell you, in Atlanta, Metro Atlanta, it is a large, large, sprawling city. But when it comes to the finance community, we are all so supportive of each other. And it's the same way for the chief audit executives here. We have enough large public companies that we can really, we have a, I volunteer time at our Institute of Internal Auditors. local chapter here in Atlanta. It's a very active chapter. We have some between 2 ,500 to 3 ,000 members. We provide 39 events throughout the year to train the auditors and get them together and have them network together. So we've also tried to set up a community where that happens. But I have a Rolodex of chief audit executives that live right here in the community. I've also found those Round tables, I'm sure you found that as a CFO, those round tables that you belong to in your career that have peer jobs that do the same thing, they are limitless when things are changing or there's disruption. We all use consultants in finance, and I find making them your friend, not just your consultant, especially the lead partner, is very helpful because you can have great knowledge transference. You can actually share information both ways. The more transparent I am with them, I find the more they'll share information where I'm not even paying for it, right? The great consultants come in and say, well, what are the problems you're having today and how do I help instead of selling? So I usually tell them that right off when I meet them. But yeah, I think all of that's important. And when we do argue and argues. probably the word they feel sometimes with a client. I call them customers, actually. I don't know if my shareholders like that, but I like it because what it means is we can do this together. We can solve the problems together. That you have to say, no, this finding will stand and it is a high risk. And the business is trying to tell me it's not a high risk. But that's where that trusted partnership again shows up, where there is debate. we can faithfully discuss about what's best for the company and alignment. That's another time when you can use your third -party consultant. So if we're talking about something very technical and I feel like I need backup, I will sort of say, can you just come to this meeting with me and speak up and give them other facts about other companies so they get a real -life benchmark in the discussion to help them understand. But we also, in internal audit, you can't raise every finding and can't raise every finding as if it's, you know, the ceiling's broken and we're being drowned and they're all high and critical. And it's not as bright a line as you would think in internal audit for some of our operational audits. So to me, you know, this saying I sometimes say to people is you can win the war, but you'll lose the battle. If I'm trying to audit a whole function on a whole variety of topics and I'm willing to, you know, fight for a long time over two or three findings when I audit them all year round, every year, it's not going to be a productive relationship. And so we have to figure out where's the middle ground and how come, why don't we agree on the risk? The other thing I use, Von Mises is a philosopher, and I've used this, I simplify what he says in today's language. But when people don't want to change, and I use this in internal audit all the time, when people don't want to change, there's usually three reasons. Number one, They aren't uncomfortable with the current situation. Number two, they don't see a path to a future state. And number three, they don't have a future state in mind. And so when we have challenges like that, I use that model to figure out why are they pushing back? Maybe they don't think anything's wrong today. Or maybe they do agree, but they don't see a way because they don't have the money. the right talent in the organization to actually cause the change to occur, or they don't even see what the final vision could be. And it's usually more than one of them. It's usually two with one being primary. And once I figure out what that is, I can actually speak much more caring. and kind with my audit customer to figure out what is the solution and how do we get there. The other thing I say all the time is we are all smart people. That's how we got here. I know we can find a solution for this. So let's just work on it together. Nice, nice. And I like how you said, so two things that you said that really resonated with me is one, having your network. of, you know, other chief audit officers. I do have my, I call them my CFO friends as well because he helps. Because it is lonely because there's only usually one you in the whole C -suite inside your organization. The other thing was a consultant. It's crazy how, and it reminds me even, you know, family -wise, right? You can say the same thing. Somebody else say the same thing to your kids and they listen to the other person. I feel sometimes that's how consultants are. It helps bring perspective so it's not just you. So that's a great, great way to use them. Yeah, absolutely. And I hire my consultants with the same thing in mind as with employees and partners is are they a culture fit? Are they going to dig a hole and leave a hole? Are they going to dig a hole and then help us work on the hole in a kind -spirited way, right? Yes. I use a multitude of firms, and the reason I do that, it's really about the people. This is an internal service to the organization and an external service to the external auditors and the shareholders. And if I've got the right people, we can make all of this work. Having the right people and how you hire them. Now, I wanted to take a break here because going back to the work you do at Kennesaw State, right? Because when we come through the ranks, like when we go through school, We think that what will help us at some point is what we learn, like all the technical aspects. But when you were describing how you hire people, you mentioned soft skills, you mentioned your culture. These are totally different, especially as you get higher and higher in your career. So what would you advise somebody that's just starting in their career to think about as they progress? Like what are the things that you... probably learned the hard way like most of us did, to help them bridge that gap. Because yes, your technical skills will be the strongest thing on your resume and will help you when you start your career. But then as you get to the VP role and C -suite role, it's completely different. Yeah. I always say the technical skills will get you there, but the soft skills will get you where you want to be. That's my mantra that I tell people and coach people with all the time. You do have to have the technical foundation to have the respect to be a partner. But the soft skills and how you do that is much more important as you start to choose your path or pivot as you go along. So I think what you're saying is exactly spot on. I think I... figured that out on my own, unfortunately. I wish I'd had a few more sponsors throughout my career and life. I think I have now, but early on because I was new to the country, new to a business world, right? So I had to figure that one out on my own. It was like, boy, I work really hard. I'm the one in the office the longest, especially while I was at PricewaterhouseCoopers. And I'm working really hard, but not always being noticed for what I'm doing. And I like to be humble as well. So it's hard. It was hard for me to learn to say, look at what I did, right? I would just do the work and expect people to notice. And it's not that you have to tell them. It's sort of a change to being able to articulate the value you bring more than what you did. And you do have to do that. And I think it's probably more so for women that we have to do it. I think anyone can have imposter syndrome. I just think most of the women I know have some level of imposter syndrome because of the generation we came from, right? My mother was a homemaker. So certainly this is an all new ground that I've experienced. And I think I tell people, you know, it's okay not to know things, but also believe in yourself and be confident in what you do and the skills you have. But that is that technical basis as well, right? And it's only later on that I learned it's all that communication. And you talked about the network. There's some chief audit executives. I hug them when I see them. This is not a, you know, nice to meet you, shake your hand relationship. And I now made it a thing to figure out who I'm going to add to my hug federation this year. But there are some that I can consider absolutely dear friends. I've gone to events with and really enjoyed. There is a chief audit executive I belong to that's all Fortune 500 women across the nation, about 60 large. You have to be Fortune 500, 60 large public companies. And at first, when they asked me to join 10, 15 years ago, I'm like, why? The topics we were discussing were the same as any other roundtable I belong to. But what I found is the women would actually share documents. They'd share deep inside thoughts. they would really try to help lift you up and have us all grow together. 30, 25 years ago in this industry, it wasn't like that. I am so proud of that change. It used to be there was only really one woman sort of nearing the top. And so sometimes I saw behaviors where we weren't nice to each other. And we've pivoted that. It's really, I think there's enough room for all of us. And if we help each other, we can get there. And what's interesting is just the way this group of 60 women share. I can have my CFO ask me a question. I generally, after all these years, know an answer. But I'm like, let me go get a real -time answer. I can email those 60 chief audit executives, and I've got 20 responses by 5 p .m. Nice. Like, it's amazing. That's the one roundtable where I get that response. So I can literally call him that night and say, here's the answer from 20 public companies real time today. That is an amazing network. And it's amazing to see what people can do when we work together and pull together. And we don't have to share industry knowledge or we don't even have to share. The things we're not supposed to share from an antitrust standpoint, we can share sort of our technical things, right? And how we get things done. So it is. That's the other thing I learned in my career. Because of my background, people were saying, I remember hearing it in college, too. You have to network. You have to network. I'm like, what is networking? And how do I unlock this box? Where's the key? And I never, ever understood what it was. And then one day my husband is very charismatic. And one day he said to me, I just have so much fun connecting people. When I meet somebody and they have a need and I find somebody else who has the need and I'm like, oh, I'm just supposed to find people with needs and connect them. That I can do. And he didn't say that to try and help me. It was just one of those moments where you have this beautiful realization. An aha moment. Yeah, aha moment. used that ever since with other people. And it's really like that. I used to think, well, you mean I'm supposed to go to somebody and ask them for something? Why are they going to help me? And what I've discovered, if you just talk to people, you'll find common ground. And then you find common needs. And then you share. And it's really remarkable. And it makes you not feel alone in that CFO role. Yes. And I love how you talked about having that support group, right? Because First, when I asked you initially the question and you were going over, yeah, first, be able to articulate your value. That one is very hard to do because I'm originally from Ivory Coast, right? And it's, you know, being humble. You don't brag, brag, brag, unless it's money. Yeah, we're crazy about that. But then you come here and it's different. You have to learn that. And then you have to have a network because you realize that a lot of the opportunities are just getting the answers. you're not going to have all the answers. That was one thing, too, because a lot of people were like, oh, it will probably take me 10, 20 years to get there. And I'm like, I don't know anybody who got into their seat and they knew all the answers on day one. No one ever will know all the answers. Yes. Right. It's one of the things colleges are dealing with right now is there's more information than you can teach in four years. And now you've got AI and all these other things. So it's it's about being resourceful now. Where do you find all the answers? And then having that foundation we were talking about earlier, that foundation matters in our industry of finance. Yeah. So I'm curious to hear other things in that journey, because I'm originally from Ivory Coast. Like what was that transition for you like coming from Canada, the US? I know it's. shorter distance but I'm pretty sure you probably have some things like I cut you by surprise and were like oh I did not expect this absolutely yeah I think people think because it's Canada and we're the neighbor yes oh it's so easy it was nothing it was absolutely today I'm hoping today it would be easier but when I moved across the border I needed some thread to mend something and I'm Driving around, nobody to ask. My husband was an Air Force reservist. He was overseas serving at the time. And I'm like. No cell phones. Where do I find thread? You know, and I'm running around. I go, what's Target? Let's go into the Target store and see what's there. I'm like, how could this huge department store exist and not have thread? And then I found a little end island. But it was a very limited. And I'm like, there's got to be thread in this country. I know that's a silly little story. But that's that moment where I suddenly felt alone, kind of. Really, really alone. So then I started to try to find people who liked things that I liked from where I was, right? Meeting. But certainly once I started working, once I had my green card, that made it so much easier because you then already have some people you can talk to and know. But there are other, you know, people would make fun of my speaking. You probably don't hear it anymore about out. And even my daughter used to tease me because I have a mom. And she'd say, she would laugh at me and say, do you spell that M -U -M? And I'm like, no, I spell it M -O -M. So since she's first born abroad, I went and got her Canadian passport. So she can't make fun of me anymore. But yeah, I think now my family up there thinks I sound Southern now. So apparently Atlanta's had an impact on me after all three decades. But yeah, I think, I don't say y 'all, but I don't say reckon. But I think it's just the how I'm speaking and the rate of speaking and the more musicality. Canadians, we go up at the end. So when we ask you a question, it's like, how are you? And a lot of Americans miss that, and I'm waiting for the answer. So there's little nuances like that. You don't even think about washroom versus bathroom, toilet in Europe, right? And sometimes at a restaurant the first few years, I had asked for the wrong thing, and they go. What's that? Oh, gosh. Talking about restaurants. So my story there is so I when I came here, we went to the movie theater the first time with a group of international students. And we went to the movie theater. We got we wanted to do like in the movies. Right. So we got a big bucket of popcorn and we got drinks. So I needed a straw and I didn't know how to say a straw. So I went in because we had people from Japan, from China. So everybody's there. And I'm like, okay, so let me think in French, what would that be? Yes. So in French, it's either pie or what would be spelled at pipette, like a small pipe. So I take my whole courage. I'm like, well, there's nobody here to help because my friend are from Japan. Like we all in the same group. So I was like. Can I please get a small pipe? And they looked at me like, she's asking for a pipe. I'm like, yeah, for my drink. Yes. And I was, so later on I learned that pipe was for plumbing, that it had nothing to do with the straw. Yeah. Yeah. Or smoking. The slang, the slang is what's different, right? We have French Canadians in Canada and, you know, their French is different than France French, which is different than your French. Yeah. There are little nuances like that across the board. I don't even remember them all, that at first were challenging, but sooner or later they disappeared. Yeah, and you laugh about it later on. I'm just blessed that I have the experience to be here. I mean, I was in a blessed country as it was. Canada is also very blessed. I was raised with lots of love, and living here in the United States, I've had nothing but great things happen. So I feel blessed. I am blessed. These little things don't matter then if you look at the big picture, right? Yes, yes. And I'm always curious to hear how you think those experiences, like you being from another country, you being a competitive skater, and I think if I remember it well, you had actually four knee surgeries. Yes. Four. How all these experiences would shape the way you lead today or your leadership style view of things? Yeah, I think. Kindness is really important. I can come across a little stoic. You know, those personality assessments we all take at some business gives you at some point. I can come across a little stoic when you first meet me, but that's not who I am on the inside. I think it's a layer of protectionism from all that stuff maybe. And I've had to sort of feel. very comfortable for, I mean, speed skating was a great example. I never told a soul about my speed skating background for ever. And then I was listening to a woman speak. She was talking about her tennis career and I found it compelling and extremely interesting. She was a CFO and I'm like, why am I so afraid? But it was because I felt like I failed. Well. You know, you can't plan everything in life. Is that really failure? You pivoted. You made it all good. You went a different direction. You know, the car accident happened. It was nobody's fault. It was the weather. It was the ice. You weren't speeding, right? So that sense of self -awareness and reflection, I think, is really important in realizing how people view you. So because I know that. I have to guard myself a little bit. Once you get to know me, I can be extremely expressive. But I have to sort of feel comfortable with you first. And so for me, it's remembering that I need to come across to the people sometimes at first in a similar fashion until they get to know me very well. Not stoic one time and the next time I'm laughing, you know. And so that's something I had to learn to manage over about the last 15 years. But thank God somebody gave me that feedback. right in a in a performance review and and the the personality assessments I think it's easy to take that information and go yeah that's me but then not know what to do about it and so somebody finally gave me that feedback once and said you can come across confusing um sometimes you're very directive yeah i'm a high d um you can come across very directive and other times you're so warm and friendly and i think it confuses people and so this those those kinds of things you have to just learn how to manage them so you so your staff your peers your boss aren't confused by it and i haven't figured anything out yet i'm still i want to live i want to do so many more things in my life that i'm kind of I'm sad we only live as long as we do. Oh, now I want to hear that part. I want to experiment a lot. I want to teach. I want to become a fitness instructor. I have a whole list. My daughter wants me to write a book. I have a whole list of stuff I still want to do. So I'm framing up my portfolio career because I'm a worker. I will always be busy. So there's no retire for me. I already know that. I already figured that out. And there's no, I don't like the term rewire because it's like something was wrong with you to begin with. So I met a lady recently and she was saying I'm having. She was in her 70s, I believe, because she told me that. She's like, I'm having so much fun in my portfolio career. And I said, oh, tell me what that is. She listed all the same things I want to do, a little consulting, maybe be a chief audit executive for hire. And I'm like, that's exactly what I'm going to call it. So I'm making my list of my portfolio career so that when I'm ready, I'm set up for. staying really busy until until my time on this earth is over and I'm that excites me to stay busy I like being busy yes I like being busy with the right thing and I especially like to to schedule naps in my day my husband thing is crazy I'm like no that's part of being busy because I need all the energy I can get so this is all part of me being busy there yeah studies show that you're better after that nap now I can't nap I've never napped I don't know why I'm broken but Good for you that you can. I'll be praying for you because a good nap will change your life. It probably will, yeah. My last question before we leave. If you had a magic wand, what is one thing you would change about your career or your life? Yeah, that's a hard question for me. I guess, can I tell you why it's a hard question first? It's a hard question for me because I try not to look back. except for to be self -reflective and learning about myself, I try to say, well, that happened. I could do it better. Or I like that. I'll do more of it. And I don't believe in luck, I think, or magic wand, because I think luck is being prepared when the circumstances present themselves. And so it's like that foundation of our technical skill set. It's all the stuff I've learned about the soft skills. It's all the stuff I've learned about being authentic and coming across evenly to people. But if I could, I'd probably hope that I didn't have the car accident. That would be nice, not to have to rehabilitate for three years. I also believe you have to take those adversity moments and turn them into learnings and deepening of your soul. And I am not sorry the car accident happened and changed my life. I think I'm a better person for it. I think I'm deeper. I think I understand how blessed I am because of it. And it made me very resilient as well. So I think you have to look at all parts of your life and be thankful for it. That's beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Lori, for being on the show. It was so, so, so amazing. I still want to know off record how she got four knee surgeries. She told me. Okay. But thank you so much. I'll let you guys keep guessing. It was great to be here. Thank you for asking me to do this. And your questions were very interesting. And I enjoyed this time with you. Thank you so much. That's so great to hear. Thank you.