Using AI as a Strategy Engine with Sophie Bell

Speaker A: M. You're listening to Crossing the Axis, the podcast that explores the commercial side of film production with your host, James Kebles.

Speaker B: Welcome, listeners, and thank you for tuning in to the show. If you've heard me before, you know one of my core beliefs is that production companies can work directly with brands and take on more valuable, more strategic work. But of course, there is a catch. If you want to go direct to brand, you don't just get the upside. You also inherit the responsibility. Historically, agencies owned the strategic work, the testing, and the early thinking. Production companies mostly executed, but that line is blurring fast. Brands are more sophisticated now. They have tools, they have data, they have internal teams who understand go to market strategy, but they don't have all of it. And they're looking for production partners who can meet them half the way. The good news is that you don't have to become a full service agency overnight, but you do have to bring something more to the table than just execution. If you'd rather not engage in this kind of work, then you're probably best served working directly for agencies. But if you find this early work compelling and you're willing to bring resources to the table, then. Then the question becomes how? One of the answers could be AI, not as a shortcut, but as a strategy engine, a way to have smarter conversations, diagnose fit, pressure test ideas, and surface stories that actually differentiate a brand in the market. And that's why I'm excited to welcome my guest, Sophie Bell, for this conversation. Sophie is the managing director of Toast, a production agency based in London. They've been building an internal AI tool that they call StoryX, to do exactly this kind of work. They didn't set out to become a software company, though. They built it because they had a need, a better way to uncover stories, sharpen strategy, and start better conversations with leads and clients. So when I heard about StoryX, I asked Sophie to join me on the show to talk about it. So today we're going to unpack where this came from, how it works, and what it looks like for a production company to responsibly step into a bigger strategic role with clients. So, Sophie, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me. I'm, um, looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker B: Before we begin, we have to establish your credibility and how you got here.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: What is all of this about? So tell us, how did you get into the commercial world? What's your background in filmmaking? I think there's a really interesting take here that I think informs the product. So tell me a little Bit about how you got here.

Speaker C: I have kind of spanned quite a lot of different genres really. So I started off, actually my very first job was in feature films. Always thought I wanted to do that and I loved it. But I very quickly moved into documentary work and that was definitely kind of where my heart lies. I like being able to kind of get stuck in on a, on a project with a smaller team and sort of be more influential in creating what that end result looks like. So I worked in documentary filmmaking for about eight years and that went from sort of investigative journalism and then towards more of the kind of commercial end with ad funded programming. And then I got into the world of commercial uh, which was initially it was advertising branded but it was very much telling kind of real people stories for brands was a lot of the work I was doing. So it was quite a sort of an easy transition in many ways from the world of documentary into commercial. And then as I've spent the last, you know, sort of 14 years doing that, it's, I've become more and more in the commercial world if you like. So now straddling both of that. So I still very much love the real people storytelling and that's what sort of story X is all about. But also um, at TOAST we do a lot of sort of traditional television advertising, uh, TV advertising but also digital advertising. And those lines are blurring as well with you know, what really is a commercial that could go on TV is actually just for digital use now and vice versa sometimes. So yeah, that's sort of my background, uh, a real mixture, uh, but always sort of storytelling at the heart of it. I mean everyone says they're a storyteller these days, but yeah, that word for us still rings true.

Speaker B: When you're talking about getting into the commercial side of that documentary work. Are you talking about customer story kind of work? Long form, short form, Explain a little bit more about that kind of work.

Speaker C: Yeah, so that definitely kind of customer stories case studies has, has been part of, of what I've worked on in my career but also longer form. So uh, looking at editorial documentary work for brands. But that's initially that came through working with broadcasters and uh, then they would have these projects that I would come on and work on um, from an editorial point of view. But then as I got more into the commercial world it was very much uh, working with brands who are our clients to create space stories for them to tell in a more editorial fashion. So for example, one of those projects was broadcast on sort of BBC Global News and one of the projects was put out organically for organic distribution digitally online and was very much tapping into the online audience that the talent in it had. So it doesn't, you know, it sort of doesn't matter where the platform is. But those were longer form pieces of sort of more traditional like a half hour doc or the uh, web series was a sort of six part series of different lengths. Because online it doesn't have to be strict, you know, so some were sort of five minutes, some ten minutes, um, and it sort of fits the story and what you're trying to tell. So, so a real mixture, but then also, yes, a lot of that kind of two minute length, that sort of two minute branded content story, whether it goes in a much more of a commercial slot in terms of how it's distributed or whether it's sort of going out as branded content from the brand's website or whatever it might be.

Speaker B: I think this is the origin story of StoryX. I think. I'm so curious to unpack your journalistic background and how that informs this. But before we get there though, give me the context of Toast. Where did you and Toast and start engaging together. Is this something that you and others conceived together, kind of addressing the problem that you saw in the marketplace or. And give us a snapshot of what it looks like right now?

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So I joined Toast nearly four years ago, um, as MD and you know, very much was interested in the sort of TV advertising legacy that we had. I thought that was great. And also their appetite for more branded content, which was very much I could bring from my background as well. So it felt like a really good mix in that I was, you know, I knew the world I was coming into. But I also could boost an element of the offer that was really my background of this more documentary, real people storytelling that the company was doing but wanted to do more of and recognize that that was a valuable thing. So that's sort of how we came together really. And we do both of those things very much so now. And although they seem quite separate in some ways, and we're constantly having this conversation about how much do we sell them as sort of separate offers and how much are they. One holistic offer that will be an ever evolving conversation, I'm sure. But a lot of the work we have done in the last four years actually has been in that middle space where it has been working with a real person, often a celebrity in some of the work we've done. But. And it's taking their authentic story, but putting that In a very commercial environment which enables the brand to really sell their product, whatever it is, but it's still drawing on the authenticity of that person and why they're chosen. They're not just a mouthpiece, they're not just there for the sake of it. And so that's something that we have really, um, focused on and want to do more of. And that's why Story X has come about. So wanting to do more of that work and wanting to know, you know, wanting to have the tools to be able to go directly to brands to sell that offer. Because actually you need to work with quite big brands to do that kind of content. You know, for the TV commercials maybe we're not working with such big global brands. You know, they, they don't do as many, they don't do as much content. Whereas to do that branded content with real people is, needs to be quite a big business. And that's historically I've worked with very big businesses like Google and Nokia and that, and they have a volume of work that is required. So yes, to be able to get in with those businesses and talk to them in a useful way. So in a way that's valuable to them, you need to offer something more than just your services. So recognizing that was kind of okay, we want to do this work and we need to have something more valuable. What's our value to the client? Because I think as, as a production company or production agency, we feel we're in that sort of hybrid space, which is why we call ourselves a production agency. But it is quite hard to, to go in and have those conversations with the brand and it's hard to know what your value is other than we do a great service and we deliver great work, we execute really well and we're lovely people if you work with us, you know, and obviously, yeah, it's a, it's a selling point, but it's a really hard thing to show that value when you don't know somebod. Right, so then StoryX thinking also, okay, well what's the challenge for our clients finding, doing that kind of work? And time and time again clients have said to me, how do you find the stories? You know, what's the magic? What's the secret sort of ingredient for finding great stories? And coming from a documentary sort of journalistic research background, it's sort of, well, there isn't really any magic there. It is just very time consuming and obviously you've got to have an understanding for what makes a good story and also what will work well, on screen, if you're, you're working in broadcast journalism or filmmaking, so you have to have that experience, knowledge, etc. But it is also just really time consuming and quite hard to find like the matrix of requirements often. So you, you might go down a tangent and find the person who has this one particular story, but did they also come from this location and, and have they also had this experience and have they also, you know, be willing to talk on camera and do they have a social media following? And you know, the list can be endless. So, and obviously everyone's talking about AI, so you know, it's hard to not think, okay, well, does AI have a solution? And you know, we started thinking about this last year, sort of at the beginning of last year. So things have changed a lot with AI in that time. But recognizing that, okay, well, is that some a tool that could help unlock this. And for us, AI is not something where we're not a post company. We're not big enough to be able to necessarily invest the time and resource and money into developing that ourselves. We're much more keeping abreast of what's going on in the industry and utilizing the skill sets and the tools available when it makes sense for us in production. But it was not something we could ever lead on, uh, from a post production point of view. So we knew that wasn't going to be our way to sort of make value out of AI for our business. Whereas actually for us it was like, okay, well, AI could work for us much better as the input on projects and helping us have that strategic edge, helping us be able to ideate for clients and come up with great ideas and be seen as more than just executors, but also valued for the execution. Like we don't want to be, we don't want to devalue the execution because actually to do that well is a skill, you know, and it is valued, but it just needs the sort of something a bit more to be able to have those robust conversations with, with brands.

Speaker B: There's so many reasons why I like it. Uh, clearly I like it because this is a show about business development, right? This is a show about sales and marketing. I'm always trying, I mean that's my, I'm a sales strategist. I'm always trying to think about how production companies or production agencies, which is a term you hear more and more often, it makes a lot of sense, you know, can do to, to show their value. And I'm a strong believer in the consultative sale, right? You Don't. Not transactional sale, but a consulting approach to sales and how you bring something to the table to potential clients, the ones you don't already have the leads. And I was really drawn to what you were doing because I see you doing that in a really meaningful, engaging way and you're not using. In our previous conversations about this, I learned that you're not just using this as an automation tool or a shortcut. You're using it as a. Maybe even more work. It's harder, you know, but it's giving you richer. A richer engagement process with potential clients. It's such a fantastic way to go in to say, hey, we might have thought about you in some way or, or even better. And I will hope everybody thinks about this. Yes, you can. And I'd love to hear your response to this, if it's true or not. Most people focus on sales and client development around the brand, which is wrong then. But then the next better one is the person, which is better and just about right. But equally as important to that person is the market that these people are operating in. If you can be really bright and intelligent about the market that they are in and their customers, then you can really get into that consultative sale. Talking about what you do and how it applies to their market can solve their problems in a diagnostic or some kind of way like that. It strikes me that's how you've developed Story X. Maybe you've done this, you did it, you know, enough times where it became, well, let's just, uh, you know, like, let's figure out we're repeating this thing, let's make it stronger and invest in it. Do you have a different take on the market and how to engage and bring value to potential clients? And then is that the right origin story for Story X?

Speaker C: Great questions in there. Um, I think just to go back to what we were saying before about wanting to still be connected to production and wanting to value that. And it's about how to value the storytelling offer, if you like, through story finding. And therefore the value to the client is that it might be that there are stories out there that they haven't even thought about. They haven't thought about going down a certain route. And it's not just about the execution, which obviously we want to still be tied to, but actually it's about saying what we're really good is understanding what makes a good story that is part of our execution. And how can we give clients an offer that still is true to that, but also a bit different because actually they don't have to make a film off the back of what we can help them with. We would love them to. And that is still very much part of our DNA. But actually not limiting ourselves to that and giving ourselves then opportunities down the line to do that is helpful. And in terms of the market for them, I think we are in the sort of influencer, uh, creator age and we know that market is growing, we know budget spend is growing in that area and, and but also at the same time there is a thirst for more authenticity in that sector and that, that is really important. And if you know a lot of reports that you read that have come out with sort of looking ahead to 20, 26 etc. Is looking at ah, that need for more authenticity for, for the brand relevance to be stronger. Um, and obviously there are some people already doing that really, really well. But just as a generalization, that is something that is being picked up on and recognized. So I think it's this element of authenticity which is what we're excited about with StoryX. Because yes it is about maybe finding case studies for you, but actually there's so much more we could do with it as well about finding those authentic voices and how you make sure it's the right brand fit and giving you kind of evidence for that.

Speaker B: I love that you talked about the input, output, role of AI and how that plays into it. And then you're talking about execution. I call it delivery. But uh, it feels to me that the delivery is the most important because you are a production agency and production is a big part of what you do and you take the production that, you know, the intelligence you have about screen performance or production performance and the right actors, the right story, the right dialogue, the right everything, context and then apply that so you know that the output is going to be a certain set of parameters. So knowing that the parameters are here, influencer, I'm glad that you brought as another growing demand that uh, production companies will have to consider as they're approaching director brand work. And so you're like, okay, here are the outputs that we're going. We know we do this all the time and we know so considering these outputs, the strategy for you person, brand, whatever in the market could very well be this. And this is how we can see it work and then getting into the great word that you use as evidence, we have evidence that this can perform. And I think that if you can talk about that and bring clients through that, it's an incredible engagement path. Is that a correct, right way to Kind of reflect what you're saying.

Speaker C: Yes, definitely. I think that the evidence element was crucial for me because again, time and time again in the past, you find a great story and you're like, you should definitely tell this story to your client. But they're like, I don't know, you know, they can pick holes in it because you don't have anything other than. I think this is a great story and I think it. Because of my experience. But that's a bit flimsy, really, isn't it? It's like, it's not enough to convince. It might be enough to convince the person you're speaking to, but is it enough for them to be able to convince. Convince that stakeholders, you know, and that's really hard for them. And I get that. I get that's a hard job. So again, coming back to like, what is the value for the client? Why would someone choose to work with us? That's what we have to constantly answer, which I think is often, historically, production companies haven't had to. It's just, well, we do a good. You know, you have. Because in the output, the job is good, the result, the work is good. But that's. They only see that at the end. They don't see it at the beginning. Why are they going to buy you in the first place? Other than your track record, obviously. But yeah, so I think that evidence is key so that the client can feel confident, go, this is a good story because it fits with our brief in these ways. Because the profile of this character is X, Y and Z. They have this kind of audience that we could tap into through them. And it's still, you know, it's not the sort of the data of statistics and it's still kind of qualitative rather than quantitative, but it is a lot more evidence than we've had before. And as a storyteller who feels passionately about wanting to tell good stories, it's really trying to make sure that story X is as robust as possible on that element to help clients feel good about their decisions.

Speaker B: I have so many questions. There's. There's so much here. This is so great. I love talking to you about this, but we probably should frame up what StoryX actually is. Everyone's like, what is this?

Speaker C: So StoryX is an AI powered story finding platform. Um, so story finding is something that we do as a company and the platform of StoryX is helping to power that with AI based on the prompts that we've created. Obviously, you know, we're using a variety of different models to input. It's not based on one kind of system, so, so that it purposefully has flexibility to go with what the best is at the time, and that works the best. But also in case clients have specific needs around what they can and can't use and things like that. And also, AI is changing all the time. So, you know, making sure that it can evolve is really important. And the key element is, you know, there's a brief that we put into StoryX that's obviously based on how we've set it up to function and how the kind of the AI agents interpret the information and search and then it's the report that comes out of it that's the key element of value to the client, which reports on various predetermined categories around the evidence that we're looking for, that kind of information that will help make a decision. So around the briefit, around the profile of the contributor, you know, links to information about them, but also videos, if we're wanting to see if they're a good speaker, for example, uh, it can search and pull information from videos as long as there's subtitles, you know, it can find quotes from people. So we can add that in as well. So you've got a real sense of what this person's actually said, not just an interpretation. And also we have a kind of like a profile score system and a brief fit score system. So again, if you were doing a lot of these, you could start to see patterns, you could start to, uh, weight and categorize people according to that.

Speaker B: Do you, do you ever use it before you get a brief? Do you ever use it to think about who? So for instance, you might finish a campaign that you made, which is the product of the business, and you then look into the landscape and you see a few different people like, oh, they're doing very interesting product or services that they sell, or they have a similar structure, whatever, um, they're in the same vertical or whatever you. And you could think, I would like to talk to them, I'd like to know more if I should talk to them. And then you have the machine help develop the score, the, the effort you should put into it or not, the guess seems good, seems not, don't chase it, things like that.

Speaker C: It's more, I would say we're using it for helping us, uh, get an idea of a brief out of clients. Not necessarily a full blown brief, but actually sometimes clients go, oh, I just haven't had time to like, I'd quite like to do Something with. With, you know, case studies, real people, whatever it might be. But I haven't really had sort of the time to sit down and think about it yet. So then you don't get a brief. So it's quite useful where we've just done a search based on what we do know, even if it's very little and gone, you know, oh, we just thought we'd come back to you if this of interest, let us know. And then often it sparks a conversation for the client to go, oh, actually, that wasn't quite right. But it does make me think it would be interesting if we could find someone like this and then we can do another search for them. Um, and comes back maybe again, not with the answers at that point, because it's not a full brief, but we've got enough to hang something off to then get them interested in the conversation and to move that conversation forward. So it's not that StoryX is coming up with the ideas to go back to them with, per se, if you know what I mean. It's coming up with people that then the list. From that you get themes and ideas. And more than anything, and actually this is the key point with the sort of evidence thing as well, is it's very hard for clients to know what they want. It's much easier for them to know what they don't want. Yes. So if you've got a list of 20 people and they're like, no, that's not right. Why is it not right? Suddenly you've got a, uh, conversation and a much better steer on a brief than just, can you tell me what you want? With nothing at the front. So it's something to respond to for all of us, it's easier to respond for us doing the work, it's easier to go, let's just get a list. Oh, brilliant. Okay, I know they're not right, but, oh, that's an idea I hadn't thought about, you know, a parkour athlete for that story. Let's try and find more of them.

Speaker B: Ah, I know. That is Cunningham's law. If you want to get the right answer from somebody, you don't ask them for the answer, you give them the wrong answer, then they tell you the right answer.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a much easier. And having a real person, a real story, gives you something to respond to, and it's also something that someone's actually said or they really care about. Obviously there's. You can start to look into more things around communities of people. And if you're wanting to tap into a community. It could be that you use it not to, uh, find the person who you want to speak to, but actually more around. Generally, if we're finding a group like this, what are the things they're talking about on this subject? And that might inspire an idea that's got nothing to do with real people. It could be a completely creative, scripted idea, but it can come from a source that's based on what real people's experiences.

Speaker B: So let me see if I have this right. You use it. What you described is really about using it for finding. If we're doing, like, customer success in whatever version you want to call that, case studies, whatever. I've, uh, done quite a bit of that. And in my experience with that, one of the hardest parts about doing that kind of work is finding the really the gold. The gold, you know, like the finding the people that help reinforce the story, whether that's a real customer, some real life experiences, or some outside, you know, representative that can do that well. And it takes so much work to do that. And there's varying degrees of access to get in there. Sometimes they let you in, sometimes they don't. And you have to trust other people. Are you suggesting that you're using StoryX to develop that part of it, uh, a great deal, or am I seeing it wrong?

Speaker C: Yeah, it is that part of it. So it is finding, if you want someone to speak for you, whether that's their specific story is to do with your brand specifically, like a case study, or whether it's something that's maybe more aligned with your brand. So I've done a lot of that in the past where it isn't that they're specifically talking about a product or anything, but they might be talking. Let's say you've got, uh, a product with a sustainability feature, and you want to do a series of films with people who are working in the field of certain elements of sustainability that are, uh, things that your product are relevant to. You know, it's relevant to your product. So it shows that you care about these things and this halo effect without it being. They have to be a spokesperson for us and say, oh, this brand's brilliant and this product's brilliant. It's much more by association, but it still can be branded. So you still could feature a product in it. Or, you know, for example, we did a film with, um, a mobile phone brand. The story was the story about the individual, and they were a photographer and they were using the phone for photography, but it wasn't talking about the phone in any way. It was very natural for her to have a phone and to be taking images and talking about her photography. You know, you don't. So the story aligns, but you still got your product in there. So, uh, or obviously if it's more editorial, where it is literally just adjacent branding, that's, that's a different thing altogether. Yeah, so it is finding those actual people to talk, but it could be that as well. It could be good for, if you want to feature those stories, whether it's through film production or otherwise, but also for events. So if you've got a real person with a real story, that's great for a brand, if you have content, but also you can do events around that as well. You know, if you want to have stakeholders come to something, you want them to speak about it. And again, having done sort of branded documentaries in the past, that's a great, great way of kind of expanding beyond the film and having those, those sort of interesting conversations with the talent behind it as well.

Speaker B: Tell me a little bit about the actual mechanism. Is it, uh, uh, is it on a particular platform? Is there. You know, so many people think, oh, I could just make a GPT and make things work. It's actually really hard to get it to do really good. I try to build them for sales strategy work and for clients and things like that and incorporate it into what I'm doing. And it takes effort, it takes a lot of work and dialing it in. So tell me a little bit about what's the engine, what's the, what are the variables that you're putting in? How are you structuring? I'm just curious.

Speaker C: Yeah, we use, um, a variety of LLMs and deep research. Uh, and then it's got a sort of front end as well. And it's also got automation in the middle. So it's a lot of different elements that come together to create what is our, uh, Story X platform, if you like. And I mean, I'm not the technical person, my colleague is. And so he manages all of that and runs all of that. And a lot of it has been the fact that over the course of the last, you know, 912 months we've been training it like. And ultimately that is the only difference between somebody else doing it and what you're doing. You know, it is about your expertise that you bring to whatever product you are trying to create, utilizing AI. So for us, that's why we've gone down the road of Story X, because we had the journalistic skills, the Filmmaking skills and the commercial skills like those. Those things together are what our expertise are. That's very hard to sell in without a product that shows that.

Speaker B: And how are clients receptive to it? Are they very curious? Is it something that gets their attention, that differentiates you from the competition, where they're leaning in a little bit more? And then can you give us even more examples? You talked about the mobile phone campaign, but is there other examples of where you've really influenced the thinking and you don't have to name the brands or anything like that, but just kind of anecdotal stories of like, this is a moment where this thing really showed its value.

Speaker C: Definitely. I mean, I think, without a doubt it has helped us have conversations with clients that we want to talk to, either existing ones that we want to go back in with and, you know, have different conversations with, or just completely new ones, you know, it really has. And also, just for genuinely having that point of difference that you feel passionate about and that, you know, represents what you are trying to say about yourself as a company. As I said, it's quite hard to do that just through branding and trying to say the right things on your website and in conversation. But actually through StoryX, it demonstrates what we're trying to say. It demonstrates what we're trying to say. Our value is alongside the fact that there is the added value of having a product that does all these things and utilizes the fact that AI, yes, it works fast, so we know that's its value, but that's the starting point. What's the true value is that it allows better quality work because you have a better starting point. You have more research, better research, more robust research. Because AI can search in places that humans wouldn't even think to. As one person, you don't know all the sites you could possibly visit. AI can spread the net very wide. So it's the value in elevating the quality, giving you the time to put more into the ideation rather than just, well, I've put all my time in the research. I found these three stories. I've got to go with them because they're the only ones that really fit. It's like, actually, let's have 20 stories and have choice, uh, and then be able to think what's the best.

Speaker B: Are there any examples of where you've actually put that into practice that you can share?

Speaker C: Yes. So there's, um, a client that we're working with, which we had, you know, we'd been talking about, could we do a series sort of Branded content series, real people, customer story type thing. And it's a challenge sometimes to find those stories. It's a challenge to. Even though you think you must have sort of have those customer stories internally, it's amazing how many clients find that really challenging to find those. And that still is challenging. I mean, I think, you know, obviously StoryX is, in terms of the AI powered bit is searching what's available on the Internet. So there has to be stories out there for it to find. The fact that obviously if they are challenging ones to find, then we couple that with our, you know, human research, uh, and story finding and then we can find the story. So it isn't always that Story X is just working in isolation on its own and has to have all the answers. It's very much a tool that you can dial up or down depending on what kind of story you're finding. But this particular client, you know, we were talking about case studies, but then also by then doing a search and trying to find certain things for them, actually the idea of what they wanted to create changed and it became something slightly different. So it wasn't necessarily, not to say they wouldn't want case studies in the future, but actually another idea, uh, emerged that was probably more interesting to them and more useful. And so that's now something that's in discussion. So this is where sometimes it can start as one thing, but actually you can help it evolve and help the thinking. And I think that's the other thing about value to clients is giving them some tools to have some fun ideating. Because actually often they don't have the time to do that. So sometimes it can just be a good trigger. Some other examples, um, I think of your point, you were mentioning about when you finished a project with a client and could you use this tool to then sort of help you further the conversation and absolutely, we've done that with a couple of clients where we've gone, okay, well we've done this project with you. We've, you know, worked with a real person, whether they're well known or unknown. Uh, and we're going to do another search to show, you know, some other ideas of what could come up. And this is very much actually some particular clients in mind. Where we hadn't had Story X before and then once we had Story X, it was like, what would that give you that you didn't have before that was different. And there was one client where actually bringing out the quotes from each of the individual characters in that first stage of here's a list of people and these are quotes of things they've said about a particular location. Because it was a location based travel thing really help because you start to get a sense of, okay, well maybe that story could feature uh, like green spaces and parks. Maybe that story could feature theatre and you know, entertainment of some sort. Maybe that story could feature uh, um, like the river in London and something around the river. Or maybe this thing is sort of nightlife. So you start to get a sense of genuinely what have they spoken about that you could start to see a story around that and what you might focus on. So, you know, that was really helpful.

Speaker B: That's great. I could see so much of your journalistic background and how you describe it. It feels like it's the machine that should be called Sophie or something like that. This version of you.

Speaker C: I mean it is to a large extent, you know, and I think that's where it's funny. I suppose it is getting to a point in your career where you go, maybe that's okay because this is the stuff I know and this is the stuff I care about and this is what I feel passionate about. And I can sell this because I know this is helpful for me. And therefore that's why I think hopefully it's going to be helpful for a client.

Speaker B: I'm just, I have so many questions about the, you know, that kind um, of using it as a sales tool as well. Are you able. So one of the big um, challenges for production companies, production agencies, is really being able to contribute to the outcomes and the goals of the client. Right. Oftentimes the production companies thinks they're so far back that they can't say with any great deal of confidence that they can make the outcomes different because they don't have enough control and whatever the buy the placement, then final decisions, whatever. But I think that's becoming less and less true. And I think you do have more. I mean, I think at minimum the client that you're working with, the person, they have KPIs and they have OKRs and all of those other things that.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so theirs are yours. So, you know, can you dial the tool into that or you know, are just really asking the right questions like what are you trying to achieve with this? What is the goal? Is that accurate? Does it match the money that you want to spend? Does it match the places you want to put it and the people that you want to and all of those variables. Can this Story X machine help sift through all of that to determine a more likelihood of performance Based on that,

Speaker C: I completely agree with that. And definitely StoryX is helping with that. So I think we're not involved obviously in all the conversations and it's not a one stop shop but, but it's definitely helping us have more conversations with more depth. And I think that's the difference. It's again, it's incremental steps. It's not all going to happen overnight. But I think for the area of expertise that we are offering around this storytelling and real people, then for that we are having much better conversations and we are getting in earlier and we are helping clients to think about doing something that they might not have thought about before. And that's hopefully because it's delivering on the impact they're trying to have and they're realizing that this could be a helpful tool to help unlock some of that impact that they need to create.

Speaker B: Yeah, I see the genius of it. Um, my whole point of view on sales is attract, stop chasing, start attracting. So you have to do something that attracts people to you in the right way. I think you're doing it in a very compelling way. With StoryX, I'm so curious, do you use it as like a modern day murder board that you can bring clients in some kind of diagnostic?

Speaker C: Absolutely. I think that's the key use we have for it at the moment really is to be able to unlock the potential of an idea because uh, as I said, sometimes it gets landlocked. It gets landlocked within an internal team that don't have the bandwidth, the capacity or just the starting point to turn that into something. And that's where we want to try and help in a really easy way that's accessible, that isn't heavy lifting. Because I think that's what we were finding before as well. To engage with us felt like it was going to be such a big process. You have to sort of commit to uh, a week of research or two weeks of research or whatever it might be. And even at the end of that you don't quite know what you're going to get, you know. So I think being able to say that we could just do an initial test, an initial search just to get the ball rolling, just to get the thoughts going. And if it doesn't hit, that's absolutely fine, leave it. But if it does and there's something in it, then let's have a further conversation, you know, and it's easy for us to do. It's something that's um, then easy for the client to do because that's the Other thing, I would want to be proactively pitching ideas all the time to clients because I come from a documentary film background where that's what you do, you pitch to commissioners all the time. That's how it works. Obviously with brands you've got to wait for the brief, but then do you, you know, that's the question. It's like, can we not apply some of this sort of the way I used to work in that different world to this world and actually be proactive and come at it with ideas. Come at it and not ideas that we can't compete with, where you know someone's working with a brand on a retainer and knows them inside out. Like we're never going to have that as a small production agency. So we have to come at it from a different angle with a different idea. Which isn't everything we know about you as a brand. It's actually what we know is you from a customer point of view, from a consumer point of view, from a

Speaker B: market point of view.

Speaker C: Yeah, from a market point of view and a storytelling point of view. And how do those two things fit?

Speaker B: Mhm. Oh, I love it. I think this is fantastic. I hope that you have great success with this. I think it's one of the most important things that it is the thing if you want to go after direct to brand work, because this is what the agencies do and they do it really well. And if you want that work, which you can, and you can, you can grow a company based on that, you just have to do this heavy lift. And I think you've done it so well and so smart. Is there any parting words of advice you would give to any production company that wants to become a production agency and start thinking about working directly with brands?

Speaker C: I think, you know, I suppose actually the thing I'd like to say is it doesn't come easy. Like it's sort of when you talk about these things in this context, it sort of sounds like I've got all the answers and I really don't. It's taken time, like it's taken me four years of being at TOAST to figure out what uh, is our uh, differentiator, what other things. And to also be brave enough to go after what I think is interesting and I can sell. Like that's a hard thing to do as well. It takes time to go, okay, there's some value in that. And how can we make that work from a business proposition? Not just because I want to do more of that work, you know, Lovely. But how does that actually help us. So I think the MO m and I've said this as well when talking to people about integrating AI into your business. And um, you know, how do you start with that? I think it's the same thing. You have to go after something that ultimately serves a need within your business and represents the specialism that you offer. Because as a production agency, being a generalist is really hard. I mean, to some extent we are a generalist in terms of. We do lots of different types of output, lots of different, you know, delivery and production. But I think to really be able to go and knock on the door of brands, you have to be a specialist because they've got big agencies for the rest.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: You know, so. So finding your specialism or surfacing your specialism which might already be there, I think is the key thing. Because then to some extent the rest is easy. I know that sounds flippant.

Speaker B: No, that's. I'm specifically said. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I. And I think also this is not maybe a parting word, but, uh, you know, Story X for us allows us to go into depth with clients, to go into a bit more depth. And it also allows clients to go into more depth through the storytelling that we want to tell with them. And back to the point around the sort of influencer market and needing more authenticity and the fact that this tool is about bringing more authenticity, but also the depth. The reason it's more authentic is because it's finding depth of storytelling, not just surface level alignment.

Speaker B: Sophie, I'm so glad you've landed where you have because the industry needs you and your point of view and also your instincts to bring this journalistic point of view to commercial work I think is spot on. And I love how you've framed it all up. So from an outsider's point of view, you're doing so many things right and I hope you have a lot of success with this. Thank you so much for being on the show and for talking about all of this and sharing it with the audience. I really appreciate it.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me. I've really, really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker B: To be continued.

Speaker C: Definitely.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to Crossing the Axis with James Kebles. If you're interested in joining the conversation or have a topic you'd like covered, please drop a note@kebles.com that's K E B L A S dot com.