231: Leadership Mistakes Destroying Your Succession Plan with Chip Scholz, Scholz and Associates

Speaker A: My new website's been getting a lot of attention lately, and here's my secret. I used WIX Harmony. It's one of my favorite tools because it feels like such a natural way to create. And I have so much control over my website. I can just tell Aria, my AI agent, to create whatever I'm imagining in my head, or I can click anywhere on my site and change things myself. Try it for free@wix.com Harmony that's wix.com Harmony M welcome to Succession Stories, where we identify how entrepreneurs can improve business value and transferability to ensure the legacy of your hard work. This is your host, Lori Barkman, and you're in the right place if you want to build with your end game in mind. Succession Stories is sponsored by the Business Transition Sherpa, uh, providing expert advisory services for your business transition journey. Today's guest is someone who has shaped the way I think about leadership, succession and executive development for more than a decade. Chip Schultz is an executive coach, author, and leadership strategist with nearly 30 years of experience helping leaders navigate change, complexity and transition. He's the author of Small Decisions, Big Shifts, and Handoffs, two books that explore how intentional leadership choices and the way responsibility and culture are, uh, passed from one person to another can profoundly shape outcomes for organizations and the people inside them. But this conversation is personal for me, too. I first Met chip about 13 years ago when I was interviewing for this CEO role in a third generation family business as part of a strategic succession plan. And when I say it was a process, I mean it was a process. The executive assessments, interviews, evaluations. It felt like running a, uh, gauntlet. Challenging, memorable, and honestly transformative. Chip was an executive coach working with the chairman and, and several executives in the company at the time. And eventually he became my coach after I stepped into the CEO role. That experience had a lasting impact on how I view executive recruitment, leadership readiness, and succession planning. I'm, um, especially excited to reconnect with Chip today, not only to reflect on that shared experience, but to dive into the ideas behind his work and his books, particularly around succession transitions and the small decisions that ultimately create those big shifts. Chip, welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Such a pleasure. And I'm so glad we got a chance to reconnect. I can't even believe. I can't believe it's been 13 years.

Speaker A: I know, I know. Time flies and, and you haven't aged today, my friend.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I probably got a portrait somewhere that's hanging, that's aging. Cause I'm not quite sure I look like that, but yes, um, and you can't tell whether it's all rotten on the inside, but, uh, at least outwardly it goes well.

Speaker A: No, it's not at all. So, Chip, I want to go back to when we first met during that CEO search process. And at the time I was on the candidate side of that gauntlet of interviews, assessments, and coaching conversations. When it comes to leadership evaluation, how has your thinking evolved over the years about what organizations should really be looking for when choosing their next leader, especially if they're looking at an outside hire?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it all comes down to culture, uh, and if they're a good culture fit. Um, one of the things that I've learned over the years is that the best cultures that I've worked with are people oriented, personally, performance driven. And it's important that it's, um, in that order, because it's got to be people first. And, um, if you don't get that, then if somebody is all about the performance and not about the people, then bad things happen. Uh, um, and so that's the culture I like to work in. That's the culture that has been successful for a number of my clients. And that's really, really what I look for in, uh, people that, um, they want to hire.

Speaker A: I remember when I was going through the interview process and I was doing some Internet research, what interview questions might a CEO candidate get? And I found a great article from Forbes that I always go back to, and it said there's three core elements of any interview, whether it's a CEO, executive role, or any role. And the three things are strengths, motivations, and fitness. And I credit the experience of going through that with that philosophy. And I've held it true ever since. All the interviews that I do, the coaching that I give to my clients. Strengths, motivations, and fit. So when it comes to leadership evaluation, as you said, culture, that's where the fit comes in, right? The cultural fit. Really, really important. So I appreciate you sharing that.

Speaker B: It's interesting you mentioned strengths too, because, uh, um, look, have you ever had that interview question where somebody says, why shouldn't we hire you? And you go, well, because I'm just too passionate about my work. I don't know anybody that has been hired because of the weaknesses. Not a single person. They may have been cast out for the weaknesses, but I don't see anybody that has been, um, hired for their weaknesses. So that is the other half of it of leadership development that you get somebody in and you know what their weaknesses are. Because You've done a really good job of vetting them and you know that there are going to be some areas that they can develop and some areas that they need support in. And so a year down the road you have your first, uh, performance evaluation. And, uh, and your boss looks at you and says, well, you really suck at this. And you want to look at them and say, yeah, you hired me knowing that. And, oh, by the way, you didn't hire me for that. You hired me for all of these strengths. So why aren't we talking about that? Why aren't we talking about how I can make my strengths better and not the weaknesses? You know, uh, how do we handle that without that becoming the conversation?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Another pro tip for people who are thinking about using that as an interview question, let's say we do ask a weaknesses question. That's really strengths, right? So weaknesses, strength, you play it out as a bridge where maybe you're sharing something, but then you bridge it back to a strength. So if you're on the interview side, pro tip there on that. Um, okay, so let's switch gears a little bit. Let's talk about family businesses. The company that I mentioned in the introduction as, you know, family, uh, business at the time, third generation, I think around the time I was hired, it was like 101-25-year-old company. And my boss, who was also your boss, uh, if we can say it that way, uh, was the chairman of the company and he was the third generation family member. And I know, Chip, that you've worked with other family businesses, not only in transportation logistics, but in other industries as well. So I want to dive into that notion of family businesses and some of the emotional dynamics around succession, whether it's legacy, uh, or loyalty or what fears they may have. What do you see are some of the most common succession challenges in multi generational businesses? And maybe part of it is are the senior leaders or founders holding on too long?

Speaker B: Yeah, your, uh, your, your boss at the time, um, was a brilliant man. Still is a brilliant man. I still talked with him on a regular basis and, uh, love him to death. Um, he made the determination early on to call his business an asset, not a legacy. And I think it was about the time that he rolled over 100 million in revenue and he finished it at 1.6 or something like that, uh, um, over a billion dollars in revenue. But about that time he started to see his business as an asset. And an asset can be sold. It can be, you know, you get the lawyers to uh, write all the paperwork, and there may be some emotionality in it, but he didn't have several generations working in the business. So that's a big difference because most of the family businesses that I've worked with over the years are legacy businesses. They fully expect their children to go into the business and their grandchildren and whatever. I mean, they have created something for full employment for families for as long as they want it. And it gets into identity. It gets into, are you willing to let go? So, um, you know, the successful ones find a way to let go that maybe they sell the business or whatever. The ones though, the one story that I just, you know, I kind of cringe about it is, uh, um, the father left the business at 94, four days before he died. Isn't that kind of crazy?

Speaker A: It's, it's, uh, you know, from our perspective, we look at it through a different lens. There's a lot of reasons why baby boomer generation didn't let go or isn't letting go. And so hearing that story, I find it. I do find it sad. But just like anything, there's a lot of sides. There's two sides to a pancake. Right? And I empathize. I would do things differently, you would do things differently. And owners listening would probably hopefully say, yeah, they want to do things differently too.

Speaker B: But. But what happened?

Speaker A: But unfortunately, I think that generation was wired to work and wired to the end. And that particular four days before, you know, that was their identity. 100%.

Speaker B: Yeah, but I just don't think so. You know, when you're talking about 94, you're probably talking about traditionals, not boomers. Um, and I think there's a shift with, uh, boomers and then going into Gen X. Um, and I still think that people are going to fall into that trap. Um, I still think that there's going to be the person who's 70 who has gotten scary about the business. And what I mean by scary is not willing to invest, not willing to grow, not willing to do the things they need to do, especially where a son or a daughter might take it. And so they push back and they have a hard time leaving the business. And I've seen businesses sell because they couldn't get the old man out of the way.

Speaker A: It becomes a bottleneck in some cases, a lot of cases, if the owner just won't step away from decision making or, you know, decisions that are, uh, operationally, there was a client and Gen 2 and his father was still coming to the office every day. Relatively small office, less than 10 people. And so everybody was in their own space, right in, in this office space. And it became a cultural negative that the father was coming to the office every day. They kept looking at Gen 2 saying what's going on here? And Gen 2 was really ready for dad to kind of move on. But dad was. Wouldn't let go. Well, just wouldn't let go. And it just, it caught, it just was bringing the mood of the office and clients are wondering what's happening. Right. It just starts to become a negative as opposed to uh, a positive for that person.

Speaker B: Yeah, I worked with one company that, not in the logistics business but um, you know, grandpa was sitting in a corner office gumming his uh, lunch and uh, um, you know, everyone was wondering why. And yes, it maybe gave him purpose to come to the office every day but uh, um, it wasn't helpful. And oh, by the way, the business was failing because of a lot of the things that were going on because of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, well you mentioned one of the things about um, you know, we're not going to mention him by name but if he's listening, uh, my experience with him and with the company uh, that we're referring to was really uh, really important, pivotal aspect uh, for my career, huge impact in my life and uh, I really did enjoy working with him as my mentor. Um, I'd love to have him on the show one day and uh, so I'll extend that invitation. Um, the other thing I would say is that the experience did influence this particular podcast that I created when I had it in mind. And I've said this on air before, it's kind of, I think maybe appropriate to say it again for my listeners who haven't heard this in a while. The original premise of this show was on three pillars. Innovation, growth and transition. And all of those aspects were present in that third gen company that you and I have a, uh, shared experience with and for him in particular as the chair. And at the time, I think he was in his 60s when I joined, um, give or take. And every time the next generation got the baton in that company they did something different. They step changed the business and from founder to Gen 2 to Gen 3. And that always stayed with me. Chip, that when it comes to, as you said, this was an asset and no longer, you know, it wasn't a job. Right. It wasn't a job for family. And in companies that are navigating that, I think the recognition that they're building an asset that was for the stakeholders. And the stakeholders included employees, family and Customers, um, really, really important cultural aspect. Do you reflect on that as well?

Speaker B: You know, the thing that about this individual we're talking about, uh, um, and we're kind of skirting around the name, but, uh, um, he um, granted phantom stock to a whole bunch of people, including his board and top performers. And there are very few companies that are willing to do that, uh, um, and can get people to have skin in the game. And uh, I, um, think the number was, uh, um, there were like 100 people that he made millionaires when he sold it. But you know, the interesting part of his story is that it was a really clean transition. So he bought the business from his dad for $30,000 in 1972. It had 10 employees and did about $300,000 worth of business. And, and when he sold it, it had 15,000 employees, uh, um, and 1.6 billion in revenue. And so, you know, he was able to build it really kind of scot free and not having to worry about the uh, um, other generation. Um, the only worry that he had about the other generation is that, you know, his dad was still, you know, he was still looking over his shoulder. Um, but his dad, I think, I think his dad was a pharmacist, if I'm not mistaken, who had kind of taken on the business from his grandfather, uh, and just kind of shepherded but didn't really grow it. Uh, and then Herb was able to do what he did.

Speaker A: If this podcast is helping you think differently about your business, then you'll love my book, the Business Transition Handbook. It's a practical guide for entrepreneurs who want to build a business that's scalable, valuable, and ready for the future. It's five star rated on Amazon. Grab your copy at, uh, loribarkman Me book or check the show notes for the link. In your work you talk about the five Cs and one of the Cs I know is crisis. Why does crisis so often become the catalyst for leadership transition? And how can organizations avoid waiting for pain or disruption before making necessary changes?

Speaker B: Well, let me clarify. Um, the five Cs are, um, context, clarity, conditioning, choice and character. Um, crisis is not one of them. But, uh, crisis is an important one. If I were at a 6C, it'd probably be in there. Um, so from a crisis, often a crisis causes a reawakening and a reimagining. Um, so in the book that's coming in October, um, called Handoffs, uh, there is a crisis in the family and uh, um, the old man who is running the company with an iron fist, um, has a stroke and is incapacitated and all of a sudden loses his not so much his ability, but his will to keep, you know, keep hammering the business, um, and they lose a huge, huge, ah, customer. Well, you know, it always causes you to rethink, and it always causes you to retrench. Hopefully it sparks some, um, uh, introspection, you know, rather than shaking your fist at that crazy thing that happened and saying, damn it, damn it. But, uh, um, you know, hopefully that says, okay, so what is really happening? And how is it really happening? Okay, so what do we do about it?

Speaker A: It's a dimension we've talked about already, which is identity and a theme that really resonates with me. In the work that you're doing, the work that I'm doing with clients, I can see that letting go is hard. And for many leaders, um, the business, they're just so deeply tied in with who they are. Um, why do you think that succession often becomes emotionally difficult as our leaders get older? And how can that fear or risk aversion unintentionally limit the future growth of the business?

Speaker B: Well, the first thing is that they do get scary, and they get to the point where they want to conserve and they want to, um, hold on to as much of their personal wealth or, um, as they see anything that's an investment as a threat to that personal wealth. In other words, the risk tolerance is really low. Um, now, I know some people whose risk tolerance does not decline with age, but for the most part, you know, when you get into your 60s and 70s, you just. You want to make sure that you have enough that you can, you know, sail off into the sunset. And, uh, so you become a little bit scarier. Um, the other thing is, uh, um, I call it hubris. And, and hubris, to me is just believing your own press. You know, you believe you're the only one that can do the business. You believe you're the only one that can run the business. You're the. Believe that you're the smartest person in the room. And, uh, um, it's interesting. Um, I do a bunch of 360s for. For companies, and like, 80% of the three 60s that I do are, um, talk about delegation. Well, delegation still, you know, when you're. When you're 65 or 70 and you're holding on to your business, it means that you can't delegate that authority. You can't delegate your. Your responsibility to anyone else. And you're holding on so tight because, again, you Believe you're the smartest person in the room, or you believe that nobody else can do it, or nobody cares as much. And it's a pattern, you see. Um, and it doesn't matter how big the business is. It can be a business of 10 people or it can be a business of 10,000 people. Um, if you don't let it, you know, if you don't let your responsibility and authority go on, then you're always going to be the one in the pit and you're never going to make the best calls, uh, for the company. Um, I'll tell you, um, there was a company I worked with um, a while back, and not in the logistics business, but, uh, um, it was a company here in Charlotte. It was an old line company. Um, the boss had been there 30 years, CEO had been there 30 years, and he retired. They brought in a new CEO who uh, um, ended up being a client of mine. And uh, um, what he found when he got there is that nobody could make a decision. He had 12 people on his senior staff. Not a person would make a decision without looking at him first. And he found out that under the old CEO, nobody was allowed to make a decision unless they came to the boss first. In fact, they couldn't spend more than $100 without getting approval from the CEO. Think about that. They're running a multimillion dollar business and he's got to sign off on everything over $100. Well, you know, about half of the um, staff made it and about half of them didn't. Um, they weren't able to adjust to their new environment. Um, the ones who made it did really well, uh, and worked really well with uh, the new CEO. And um, it was pretty good. And eventually they sold the business and moved on. But um, it was really fascinating. It was one of my first kind of like early lessons in succession and hubris, all that.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, it's a, interesting story. I appreciate you sharing that. You know, I find when I talk to business owners, there's all kinds of taboo things sometimes gives people like an allergic reaction. And I think the word retirement is one of them. I want to talk about retirement and what are some of the reasons why we might have an allergic reaction to the word retirement? Or is it because of their fearing losing something? What are they losing? Um, what are the stages that you see people go through when they experience that first transition to retirement from what we might know as the vacation phase to eventually maybe reaching a different point of view on their purpose?

Speaker B: Well, and That's a great question, because the three stages are vacation and then depression and then meeting and purpose. And so if they don't have their business, they've lost their meaning and purpose. And if they have not cultivated any outside interests, you know, I mean, everybody likes to travel, right? But if they have. And you can only play golf so many days a week. Although my wife would beg to differ with that. Um, I think she would play every day if she could. Um, but. But really, if you don't have anything outside of. Of that, that business retirement is scary. You know, again, because it's. It's that first 30 days or first 90 days where you go, hey, this is great. And then you realize you're, you know, you're, um, around the house helping your spouse go to Walmart, and. And that becomes really depressing. Um, so, you know, it's a process. Um, I'll tell you, I coached a guy that, um, had been running a nonprofit for 30 years. And, uh, he was extremely identified as the face of the nonprofit. Um, he wasn't the founder, but he was almost the founder because whole generations of people had, uh, come and gone from the Charlotte scene. And. And, uh, um, I've worked with them probably 15 years, and the last five were all about preparing for retirement. All about, what are you gonna do? How are you going to shed your identity? Um, how are you gonna go from being the person on the spot, the one that's giving all the sermons, the one that's giving all the talks, the one that knows everybody in the community to now who cares? And that was. That was a huge transition. So, you know, not every. Not every CEO has that. Not every CEO has the person to talk to, nor a lot of times do they want to talk about it. So, you know, uh, it's. Maybe it's denial. Maybe it's, uh, um, maybe it's just believing you're going to live forever.

Speaker A: Maybe. I do think the depression phase of retirement for those that are afflicted by it is really scary. I recall seeing some stats. I tried to find it again, so I can't quote exact numbers, but I did see some data that reported that, uh, there was a higher rate of death by suicide in, um, executive white males once they've gone into retirement. And again, I hope I'm not misquoting any data there, but that study sort of stayed with me as, wow, you know, if we can have a big, big reason why you and I are doing the work we're doing to reach business owners sooner versus later, and Tell them these messages that it's okay to do next phase planning before you need to. Right there's uh, before a time of crisis or before that surprise Bluebird comes to buy your business. And now you say, what am I going to do next? Um, it's really important, especially as we think about age and life stage. I have a client in the 70s and he's very excited to move on. And what will he do exactly? He doesn't know. And he told me, I wished I started working with you 10 years sooner. And that's exactly why, Chip, for me, I'm trying to reach people in their 50s to say it's not too soon to really start identify, uh, building out what I look at for myself. Anyway, I call it a portfolio because my identity is then shared amongst different things. Not one thing. And I developed that perspective actually when I was the CEO of the company we were talking about. That's exactly when I developed it. And so again, that was over 10 years ago because I knew at some point my identity was going to shift. It's just a nature of.

Speaker B: Do you intend to retire?

Speaker A: Let's define retire. So I think about return on time and technically you could say I'm retired, even though I'm not. Right. What's retired? Is it you leave something and you are quote, unquote, doing something else. So for me, I left corporate America 12 years ago, started my own business. I work all the time. Am I retired? No. But I'm having so much fun and I am in that next phase of my m career as an entrepreneur. And it's a different way to approach work. When you're really doing it on your time. You decide who you work with, how much time you spend. I mean you've been an entrepreneur for decades. What that feels like. For me, most of my career was with employed by a big co or a small co, but not my co, right? Not my own co, um, as the founder and the exploration that I've been going through over the last 10, you know, 10 plus years is what is going to make me provide, uh, provide me with happiness and joy and by the way, of course make an impact on the people I'm serving. That's what's bringing me some doesn't feel like work, you know, um, but I have such control of my time. And so the return on time for me over the next, whatever 10 years is enjoying other aspects of my family. If my family starts to grow, we can be so lucky with that. Um, choosing where and when to work. You know, we have the ability to work remote that we didn't have, uh, so commonplace years ago. Um, that, that's kind of how I look at it, you know, so that I can wind down how much time I spend in my business. But I may not be retired until I choose to sell the practice or whatever I look to do.

Speaker B: You know, I think, I think retirement is stopping working for money. I think that's really what it gets down to is not being paid for your labor. In other words, you're living on security or, uh, you're living on what you saved up through a life of uh, of toil. Um, and so, you know, I don't ever intend to retire. I don't intend, I don't think my practice is salable. Um, I will probably step back from some of the things that I'm doing. Um, but God, I find such joy in it. And you know, so I really have gone past the depression stage to the meeting and purpose stage. And that's where I'm going to stay, you know, as long as this gives me meaning and purpose. And you know, one of the things I do is, is um, I'm a woodturner. I, um, love turning wood. You see a bunch of the stuff on my, uh, on my shelves behind me. Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.

Speaker B: And, and um, I teach it, you know, so I'm teaching a class on Friday on uh, on uh, woodturning 101. I'm helping other people get into the craft that have never turned before. And, and you know, at the end of the day they'll walk away with something that's usable. Um, and I love that. I just absolutely love that. So, you know, I'm not planning on retiring. I took the uh, um, self employed route 27 years ago. And uh, I never really thought of it as retirement. Uh, um, you know, because I was always building a business. Um, but yeah, I guess you could look at that. You're not working for an enterprise like you were.

Speaker A: Yep. It's a different phase of life. It's interesting. I was trying to come up with a good pun for the woodturning, but I do think there's a transition in there too. Right. You're going from this to that. That's transition. How do we go from this to that? And you start with a wood maybe doesn't look so beautiful and then you turn it and polish it and all of a sudden it's this other beautiful thing. So maybe that's a metaphor we can, we can kind of use. Um, so I want to talk about your new book that's coming. Handoffs, uh, because we chatted a little bit about it. I think it's going to be very, very interesting. Tell me what inspired you to write the book and what do you hope that readers get out of it?

Speaker B: So I can tell you the long story or the short story? Which do you want?

Speaker A: It's up to you. You're the guest, you control your know.

Speaker B: But I want to be respectful of your time as well. So, um, I wrote a couple books, 2009, 2011. And uh, and then I had a stroke in 2012. And uh, um. So this is going to be the long of the short story. Um, so I wanted to write my own book. 2009, 2011. I wrote them with other people. Um, they were more credibility builders and all that kind of stuff. So um, once I recovered from the stroke, once I got my cognition back, I started down the path of writing another book. And I got about 100 pages put away and I just said, you know, this isn't happening. So I stuck in a drawer and it stayed in a drawer for five years. I mean, there was a house move and all kinds of other stuff. It still stayed in that drawer. And uh, um. So, um, a couple of years ago my kids gave me Storyworth for uh, Father's Day. Have you ever heard of Storyworth?

Speaker A: Not a little bit.

Speaker B: So Storyworth is a platform that sends you a question a week. Like a question like, what were your parents like when you were kids? Who'd you take to prom? What was your first car? That kind of stuff. And you write the story and, and you send it to their website and at the end of a year they take and print that in a book and send it to you. So. So, so, uh. So over the course of a year, I wrote 60 stories. The book ended up being 411 pages, right? Each of my kids have a copy and uh, Chris and I have a copy. And uh, um. That got me back into writing. So um, I took the manuscript, I dusted it off, I said, okay, so I'm going to keep this and get rid of that. That was, um, that was the book that was Small Decisions, Big Shifts that came out last October. I was so energized that, um, I, um, wrote Every Dog Has His Day in, um, about a month and a half and that. That uh, got um, published in um, March. And um. So I was, I was starting down the path of writing another book which is still in the hopper. But, uh, um. One of my colleagues said to me, you know, you know, so much about family business. I'm surprised you aren't writing about that. And I thought, so that's where handoffs came from. And, you know, I've shown it to a few people, uh, in the business, and they all say the same thing. They say, did you write that about my family?

Speaker A: So, you know, protect the innocent?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I knew I was onto something, and I used the 5C's framework from, um, small Decisions and implanted that on the, um, on the crisis and how they get out of the crisis. So, uh, um, you know, I really love the book and everybody who's read it, publisher, um, was thrilled with it. And, uh, everybody's read it set was, um, pretty excited about it. So, um, I'm looking forward to it. It is about a family logistics business. It's about an overbearing, um, not really a founder. His dad founded it and died early. And, uh, um, you know, has. Has a lot of the. The family detail that, uh, you probably wouldn't know unless you. You'd been in a few family offices. So, um. God, it was. It was fun to write. It really was fun to write, you know, and, and to make sure, um,

Speaker A: I'm so excited for you.

Speaker B: Well, and to make sure it was. It was close to reality, but not, you know, not, uh, betray, um, any confidences that I've built over. Over 30 years.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I can't wait to read it. I'm excited to, uh, excited to read it. It's going to be a great story and narrative and I think people really learn from. So that's. That's awesome. Um, Chip, we have covered a lot of today. It's been fun to rewind the dial and understand what you've been up to all these years and how you continue to help not only business owners, but key executives. And, uh, you know, I just wanted to see from your perspective, what are three things that we want people listening if they are considering transition in their business, which is. Hey, you listening? Uh, that's you. Um, that's everyone, right? Everyone's going to have a transition in their company one day. What are three things that you would like them to take note of?

Speaker B: Um, the first thing is, uh, um, that if you start to believe your own bs, have, um, people around that can help you and can help you see that. Um, I think a coach is one of the best things, and you certainly have enjoyed your time as, uh, coaching other people. And I love it. It's so great.

Speaker A: But.

Speaker B: But especially as you head towards the end Just as you said in your example with uh, a 70 year old, um, you know, take the time in your 50s or 60s, even early 60s to figure out what it's like. I mean one of the uh, best books that I've ever read was um, Being Wrong by Kathryn Schultz. It was, came out in about 2011. It's a great book and I just realized how wrong I was about everything. And um, what you learn is that as smart as you think you are, there are a heck of a lot smarter people everywhere. Um, I think it was the CEO of Amazon or somebody that said, uh, if I'm the smartest person in the room, I shouldn't be in that room. So that's number one is knowing what you don't know. Um, second thing is, uh, to get a hobby and not golf. I mean, you know, yes, you can play golf all over and certainly if you're, if you're playing with a spouse, that's even better. But uh, um, you know, find a hobby. Find something that's going to give you purpose outside. Um, I found uh, the um, North Carolina Woodturners. And uh, I ended up being president of the uh, of the ncw. But uh, um, you know, the. That gives me purpose, that gets me out of bed, that gets me doing stuff and doing stuff that um, isn't work related, um, but still lets me have a hand in leadership. It still uh, lets me have a hand in um, uh, um, teaching and that kind of thing. And so the other thing is just have a hobby. Uh, and the third thing is to, to um, is to have the understanding that there may not be a time certain, but there is a time. Uh, there's a time when an exit is going to be inevitable. And it may not be that you want to go to Florida and uh, hang out. Um, or it may be, but, but you know, just realize that there's a time. So, um.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a time. Absolutely. Chip, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I think if people want to get in touch, we should tell them how to get in touch.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a website of Scholz and Associates and uh, um, one of the, one of the extras, one of the freebies is if you go to um, books and what's Chip reading? There's about 140 books there that uh, um, I've reviewed and I've read all of them and uh, so they've got a review. Um, go in there. They're about development. Ah. Um, one of them is a, is a um, fun book. It's, it's by Marianne Powers. It's called, um, please Help Me. And, and what she did was, um, took a year and um, did a different self help book a month and it ruined her life. So, uh, you know, it's just, it was, it was really, um, cute. But, uh, there's, there's a whole bunch of books in there that you can get and then the books are on Amazon and uh, on a number of different audiobook platforms.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Wonderful, Chip. Wow. Thank you. This was, uh, wonderful to reconnect and we have this new memory, uh, together, which I'm so, I'm grateful for your time and being with me. Thanks again for being on Succession.

Speaker B: Thank you very much

Speaker A: to our listeners. Thank you for being here. We really appreciate you. And if you liked and enjoy the show, why not share it with another business owner who may benefit? Uh, be sure to follow us on whatever platform you enjoy and also find our show on YouTube and we'll see you next time on Succession Stories. Thanks for joining us on Succession Stories. Before we wrap, is your business truly ready? And are you? If you're not sure, that's exactly why I created the succession readiness assessment based on the BILT method. In just a few minutes, you'll get a clear snapshot of where you stand and what might be holding you back. You'll find the link to the assessment in the show notes. Btsherpa.com Succession.

Speaker B: Hey there.

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