199. Leading with a Product Mindset in the Age of AI with Dave Ross, from Miro

Speaker A: Hello, my name is Artur Arturo Polite and I'm here from Productized Podcast. So it's my first time on this podcast and today we have a special guest with us. His name is Dave Ross. He's connecting from the U.S. dave is, ah, very experienced manager with 20 years of experience in IT, working in companies like nowadays Miro. But looking at his um, historic, we see like Expedia Group and we also see the GitHub that you all know, of course. And Dave has a quite varied career, I would say a lot of the experience. So he's not only the person who talks the talk, but he walks the walk. And this is exactly what we want, uh, to have with us today and to share with you. And the idea before we start is to contextualize you because we are close to our event at the Productized Conference 2026. It's 11th year that we are organizing it and it's going to be in June this year, so 18th and 19th of June in Lisbon, Portugal. Usually we've done it in October. So please pay attention. If you are planning to go there in October and buy your tickets in September, you should do it now. Because we are one month from conference right now and I would like to start and doing an opening line, uh, for Dave, because you've been in a room with product leaders, product managers and the community and builders many, many times and we know that nowadays the times are changing. Everyone is speaking about the AI, about how the product role is changing. But I would like to know from you, what do you see when you're, when you are entering the room full of product leaders or product managers? What do you see on their faces? What kind of worries do they have and what they are talking about nowadays?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, so thanks for having me, Artur. It's great, great, uh, to be here to uh, speak with you today. Um, and actually I do, I speak to product owners, product managers, I speak to cheap product owners and product managers all the time. And kind of the common denominator that I hear a lot of in those conversations is there's just this palpable fear because of AI disruption kind of impacting their role and just impacting their teams more broadly as well. And they're just trying to understand because the speed of disruption is happening so fast, they want to know, you know, the main fear that they have is like, am I doing enough? Am I doing enough to keep my skills in AI current so that I can continue to do my job? And so that, that's one very general theme That I hear a lot of is just, am I doing enough? Am I, am I studying enough? Am I keeping skills up? Uh, because the skills are changing from week to week and month to month. The other thing that also comes up a lot in conversation as well is, you know, I might be individually kind of keeping up with things on, in AI and keeping up with things in the product space, but my broader team, like, how am I, how is collaboration with them changing? How do we all work together now? There used to be, back, you know, 10 years ago or so, I worked on a lot of agile teams and everything was very sort of, there was a very prescribed methodology. Everybody had sort of prescribed roles. Everybody kind of knew what they needed to do and when they needed to do it. And of course that's all being disrupted and like, so how do teams collaborate together now is a little less well defined for most teams that I speak to. So that's really the challenge. I feel like people right now are kind of wrestling with, they want to know what is collaboration in the age of AI look like and how, how can we find new ways of working that are, you know, not just individually, you know, turbocharged by AI, but as a team, how can we come together and use AI collectively and make sure that we're, you know, we're building the right thing at the right time and getting it out the door for the right, uh, for the right audience?

Speaker A: So. Well, that makes sense in the ages of AI. Yes, but actually one of the questions I had, how the teams, in your opinion, are handling this collaboration? Because if it is a question, what have you seen, what are extreme cases you can see of really good adaptation to this new age and some teams who failed in your opinion, or are failing up until now and cannot make this transition, what do you see?

Speaker B: Yeah, so, um, there's kind of like this divide. I see a lot of teams who, like, individually, they're using AI. They're using AI to do their specific role very well, but they're not necessarily using AI collectively to um, to make decisions and to ideate and to gain insights as a team. The teams that I find are, that are really kind of future forward now in the product space is that they, they are finding that way to use AI as a thought partner and for that AI to help them gain insights collectively as a team. And then itself is partnering with AI in a collective way to understand the problem, come up with, with creative solutions for it, informed with, by a, uh, coming up with some sets of requirements. Again, collectively as a team. It's not a siloed kind of motion, it's a team motion together with AI and everybody's collaborating together in the same space in the same tool many times. And it's not just, you know, the engineer working in their AI coding and it's not the product person working away in their tool sets. They're all coming together in kind of one space and working collectively together. So that's sort of the difference that I see. There are many sort of interesting ways of working that we are kind of developing here at Miro as well. Internally, like we're no different than anyone else. Everybody is being disrupted. And um, one of the things that I find that helps us be successful and kind of stay on top of this wave of disruption is that not being afraid to throw out old ways of working and just rebuild and then do it again and then do it again. You know, it happens over and over and over again. Uh, I've worked at Miro for three years and I feel like I've worked for three different companies over that span of time because our ways of working have changed so drastically over time. We learn, we experiment, we try and we learn something and then we kind of keep what works, but we throw out what doesn't and we readapt come up with a new idea. Um, and not we never get it perfect by the way. We're always constantly learning and coming up with new ideas on how to make that sort of collective team/AI collaboration happen on our side. So we're no different than anybody else.

Speaker A: Yeah, I say it's kind of we're all on the same boat and yes, in the rapids. So the river is quite fast and we are trying to out pedal it or at least stay in afloat and find our way to balance the boat. Um, you mentioned the team effort, but for instance, for product leaders, uh, from product leaders perspective, what kind of product leadership is expected nowadays in order to live within this constant reinvention of the ways of working? Because if you ideally you will have a plan or a vision, you communicate it to your team in all days and they build the specific stories and their own specific plans for their small products or chunks of the product. But nowadays when you build faster than you can even learn what is the role of the successful product leader?

Speaker B: Well, so product leaders have to lead from the front and in order to do that, that means that they just can't sign the checks and get all the licenses for tools that people, um, need to use. They have to demonstrate and show through actual hands on use of the tools to lead from the front. Um, and that's really what I see a lot of very successful product leaders do, is they're not just sort of stepping back and telling their teams, well, you know, I'm going to get you a co pilot license or I'm going to get you this license or whatever the case might be. We're going to figure this out together and I am going to be part of that change as well. So, you know, a good example, for example, uh, that, that I've seen at Miro and also at other companies is that they do internal hackathons and everybody's participating, everybody from leaders, including leaders.

Speaker A: Including leaders.

Speaker B: Even the leaders, they have to come up with an original idea. They have to do, uh, they have to actually build and then they have to actually pitch, uh, what they've built and show what they've done. That's what leading from the front is. It's using the same tools, going through the same motions, figuring it out and being um, a builder and having sort of like that product mindset, um, demonstrated in real time. It's things like that that I feel like you have to do these days to really stay on top of it and demonstrate to your teams the kinds of skills and the kinds of things that you expect from them has to be demonstrated, not just talked about.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Actually, you're talking about this just today before this, before recording this podcast. I was at the hackathon I needed to live for earlier. And I can confirm firsthand that what I saw in the room is that the leaders were also interested in building. They, they were not necessarily the best on using specific tool because sometimes you have surprises within the team, but they were in the room trying to give an example. So we are also using it. Even if after they leave the room they will answer to 250 emails, they still are giving them, um, the example. And actually you touched upon a topic which is quite interesting because nowadays with vibe coding and everything, everybody is building. So everybody is launching new tools, new features. And what I see is that the speed of learning with these tools, MHM is actually, and not only learning, but being customer centric, having this iteration that will whatever we are launching, whatever we are building, is it creating actual value? Because what we have discussed up until now is that yes, people are collaborating, they are being more efficient, but actually, uh, do you, do you see people being more effective in this new world? Um, or maybe you have different opinion?

Speaker B: Um, yes and no. Again, because of all this disruption that's going on it's, it's, it's hard to remember to be customer centric. It's hard to remember to be getting that feedback and making sure that you're building for people, right? Like you're building for your users or your audience or whoever you're building for making sure that you're getting that really tight feed, feedback loop. But that's actually one of the opportunities that I see for product people in the age of AI is uh, we've always been told talk to users, get insights, build off of those insights, find the pain and come up with creative solutions to, to satisfy that pain. And historically that feedback loop has been long, right? It takes, it takes weeks, it takes months sometimes to get that, that feedback. Well now everybody can build a prototype in hours. You can build multiple prototypes in a couple of days and you can actually put a fully fledged working prototype in the hands of users and say, use this, tell me what you think. I want to see you use it and I want to understand what's working for you and what doesn't. Being able to do that these days, that's the massive opportunity that I see for product people is that really tight feedback loop and that iterative feedback loop that you can get versus oh, I will do some user interviews and you know, uh, I'll build a business case. Well now you can short circuit that process significantly. So that's what I really like about building today is that you can get that you know, sort of almost immediate feedback. Now um, that's so helpful.

Speaker A: You know actually you sort of flipping this challenge of people who are builders by nature, engineers, even designers are by nature usually more customer centric. But uh, engineers and product people, they just want to build something valuable. And sometimes I see myself forgetting the customer. Especially if you are so excited because you have this tool that can build overnight while you are sleeping all your creative ideas and suddenly you are saying, hey, this is an opportunity to actually not forgetting this feedback cycle but uh, accelerating it and also speak to the customer with like prototype and in your hands workable prototype, almost an MVP or beta version quite quickly and get them um, and receive their feedback quickly as well. And one other thing I actually wanted to, to ask you about because Agile Manifesto says individuals and interactions over processes and tools. And here what I see is that you are being given a tool, ah, or powerful set of tools.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And do you believe that? Does Vibe coding actually deliver on that intent or does it break it?

Speaker B: I think it delivers on it personally. Like again, um, just because we say people and Processes over. Sorry, sorry. People and interactions over tools and processes. Um, it doesn't mean that you forget about the tooling and you forget about the process. It just means you need to value the people in the interactions more. And so I see the tooling now and the ability to do vibe coding as an enabler of facilitating those interactions and those conversations that people should be having. Um, there's, I don't know how much in Europe, but here in North America anyway, we hear a lot about build in public, right? So people build things and then they post it on LinkedIn or they post it to a GitHub repo and they share it out to the world and they, they say, hey, you know, be ruthless, tell me what you think, give me that feedback. Well, they're using those vibe coding tools to do that, to actually create the thing that they want feedback on. But then they're inviting in the people and the interactions and the conversations about how valuable it is to them. Your build sucks. You'll hear that sometimes and that's valuable feedback. I want to know if it sucks. But if it's really, if there's things about it that you do think are helpful, or if you have suggestions on how to improve it, bring that along for the ride too. So it's that, uh, whole vibe coding culture and the whole vibe coding tool sets that you can use only facilitate and make those interactions between people and the feedback richer. And so I really feel like, again, this is one of the hugest opportunities that we have in the age of AI today is to get people talking, get people giving feedback, get people seeing in real life an idea. An idea that before only existed on paper or only existed, you know, um, in a document with a description, but now it's a living, breathing, manipul, manipulable product that you can see, feel, touch and, uh, talk about.

Speaker A: Okay, I see your angle, I see your angle. Coming back to one, one of the things that you mentioned, when we are moving from fragmented AI usage to something more intentional, what I see is that most product teams now are using AI as collection of individual tools. So someone has, I don't know, chatgpt, Claude, of course, the, uh, star of the day, Miro Copilot. All the tools with embedded, um, AI, uh, features, whisper flow to talk to your AI. But what does it actually look like when team decides to treat AI differently? I would say not the tools, but, um, what kind of conversation do you see teams are having, product teams are having in order to collaborate on this AI vibe coding building? Uh, Environment.

Speaker B: You almost need a shared space, right? You need a shared workspace for people to come together and have those conversations, no matter what tool they're using. You know, if you have your designer using Figma and you have your engineers using Claude, and you have your product person maybe building out a roadmap in Aha or Jira or something like that, where can they all come together and get an understanding of what those tools are? Of course, selfishly, I, I like to think Miro is that spot for many people because you can bring in all of those tool into that canvas. Everybody can see that information. It's sort of one central source of truth. I think that's really the important part there is having a shared understanding and building that shared understanding. No matter how you do it, if you do it on Miro or if you do it somewhere else, you have to build that shared understanding. Otherwise you're just going to continue to be siloed and kind of work in different directions and that's all that's going to do is accelerate, uh, you know, the, the disconnect between the teams and you're going to be coming up with disjointed ideas that aren't necessarily feeding off of one another, but rather kind of almost building in isolation. So that's kind of what I would encourage most teams to do. Again, it all goes back to that people and interactions discussion that we had earlier. People need to be talking and um, and, and not just relying on AI to kind of turbocharge their individual work. You all have to come together with your individual ideas and individual perspectives, um, and do that in a single shared

Speaker A: uh, workspace when they come together. Well, where do you see, or did you see up until now, where the team stall the most when they are coming from this individual usage of AI to boost their productivity into collaborative conversations. So what, uh, what are uh, still the bottlenecks? Because apparently we have all the tools available and we can even vibe code new features to some tools. But uh, where I seen the team stalling, actually what is breaking what's still not, uh, allowing them to be perfect in perfect collaboration?

Speaker B: Yeah, well, the tools, ideally the tools can talk to each other, so you can move information from one tool to another kind of seamlessly and effortlessly. You're seeing a lot of particularly AI tooling. You're seeing things like model context protocol, MCP integrations. Claude has a million connectors now to all kinds of different tools. There's, you know, cli, the command line interface, type of interfaces that you can use Teams are a little bit afraid. I feel like, you know, to step outside of their comfort zone. And like, I'm a designer, I live in Figma, I'm, I don't want to leave kind of thing, or I'm an engineer and I don't want to leave my ide. I don't. You have to be willing to kind of bridge the gap a little bit and it doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to be an expert. I'm, I'm an engineer, I don't want to be an expert in Figma. I get that you don't need to be, but you do kind of have to understand the perspective of where the designer is coming from. And if you can share that information kind of seamlessly across your tools and bring it into again that shared workspace that I was talking about, everybody can see it, everybody can comment on it. The designer has built this beautiful design, but the engineer comes back and says, well, technically this isn't possible. Let's talk about how the technical implementation side of what you've built and we'll come up with a good, uh, a good sort of middle ground or compromise and then that's when the collaboration is really happening. I feel like in a more value added kind of way. And then the product people, of course you have a responsibility in that collaboration mix to sort of help be the orchestrator. Right? You need to be, not again, an expert in all of those domains. But I feel like it's very important these days for product managers of any description to um, understand the process under the hood and also be not afraid to sit with someone in engineering, sit with someone in design, sit with someone on the architecture team as well, talk about the possibilities, talk about kind of how all of the pieces of the puzzle are going to fit together at the end of the day and know just enough to be dangerous, know enough just to be able to speak intelligently to all of these different domains and learn from your teammates. That's really important at the end of the day, is that you're all learning from each other on what, what's possible on your side and kind of what the constraints might be. So that's kind of how I see it, you know.

Speaker A: You know what I found funny is that the product management role in this, speaking beyond the tools, it was always this kind of orchestration and speaking to different kind of professionals and uh, teammates and speaking their language so you can translate when you come and you speak to a designer and he says, oh, this is going to be a Beautiful flow. You click over here, something happens.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then you need to speak to an engineer. How are we going to deploy it, what's the back end of that, et cetera, for all those beautiful features. And it's still the same role. You just uh, evolved into a different um, a different tool set.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And actually now giving. Coming specifically to Miro, you mentioned before that you shifted internally inside of the company, how you worked. You have been through this transformation through at least throughout the last three years since you joined the company. How does it actually look like from the inside? So not from the outside because of course we see the new features being promoted and we're opening the new office, etc. But from the inside, what did you feel? Is there any specific moment, kind of recalibration moment that you felt like now we change the gear?

Speaker B: Well, besides the sort of internal hackathons that we've done where I've seen a lot of kind of behaviors change and uh, and new skills be developed, Miro has done some interesting things internally as well. We have these rituals internally. One's called the Fail Night. So it's actually ah, you know, once every couple of weeks I think, or one or two times a month where um, we have a Slack channel, but we also have like an in person event where people, it's almost like open mic. You get up and you have a microphone and you talk about a failure. It's a way to get people to understand that hey, here's my learning journey and here's what I learned. And not all learning is pretty and sometimes it's messy, but we are all going to fail at some point in um, in our product journey and in our um, you know, in our careers generally. And here's what I learned and I want to normalize it. I want to normalize failure. And so it's kind of an interesting, like you don't just talk about the positive outcomes all the time, but talk about real failure. So Fail Night is a, um, is, is one kind of interesting internal ritual that we have. Another one that we have is being able to, it's, it's called Over Beers. So it's a way of explaining a uh, feature because like a lot of our features are incredibly technical and they have a lot of dimensions to them. But you, we want people to have the discipline and the ability to be able to explain a new feature or a new idea or a new initiative. Like you were at a pub having a beer and you could explain it to someone in very simple terms and very simple language and make it really, really clear. That takes a lot of discipline. You know, you don't want to take people on the deepest technical dive, but you want to help them understand what it is that you're building or what you're thinking about. Like you were at a pub, um, over beers, talking to them as well.

Speaker A: You know, I love this one because I don't remember who said it, if it was Steve Jobs or someone, someone smarter than me, definitely. And they said that if you cannot explain the concept in like, simple words, you don't dominate the concept yet.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, you don't, you don't understand it yourself. If you can't take it down to that level, you, you definitely don't. And then there's a third one, actually there's the, uh, we have at Miro a third concept that, uh, we call the bad version. So again, bad version, this is usually it's communicated in, uh, in Slack or some other communication channel that we have. But when people are putting out an idea, idea, ah, that's kind of half baked, but they want to get a little bit of feedback from others on it, they'll put the hashtag bad version on it. And that's like giving your. It's a little bit cringy, I get it. But it's really giving yourselves permission to, um, to put an idea out there that you fully admit. I haven't thought this through. What, what do you think? What does the company think? What is. What are other teams thinking about this? And you'll get really good honest feedback about. Oh, you need to think about this, this and this and this. Or we've been thinking about a similar idea. Maybe we need to come together and talk about how these two ideas might be complementary and that we can maybe flesh them both out together, that sort of thing. So the bad version, the hashtag bad version, again, it's just another way to normalize getting honest, open feedback on. Like you don't have to have a 10 page product requirements document in order to get the feedback first. Hey, I've got this crazy idea. Tell me what you think and you'll get that honest feedback.

Speaker A: That way you know it actually, and you mentioned today several times, something about the feedback and the feedback on something imperfect or something that failed. It actually requires a lot of, a lot of courage putting yourself out there.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And also the way I see it, uh, and it's maybe it's cultural because you mentioned something like in the US we do it like this, but in Europe, Europe or Southern Europe, it Might be done differently. And I know that um, Miro is based in between us and it has office in. In the Netherlands. And now you opened also in Southeast Asia. But from what the way how you explain it, is there a like US based culture? Um, building the open. You open to this negative feedback? Because from where I am sitting in the culture that I've seen in corporates, typically in corporates you cannot fail. Your PRD should be perfect. Yeah, you're having the failure night is the opposite of success. How huh? You usually celebrate the successes. Oh, we'll launch this. And now you know, the customer acquisition is just going through the roof two digits every. Every week. We are just jumping out.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And do you by doing this.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Open. Very sincere interactions between the team of getting the feedback. It's basically getting the feedback sooner. Ensuring the learning. Learnings. Positives or negatives? Yeah, independently of what they are positive or negatives. It's a learning. Did you see shift in the company culture somehow or on practice? Did you see some team, maybe you can remember a specific example, some product team or some process that really changed after one of those interactions? One of those moments?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, first of all, uh, Miro is actually the DNA of Miro. It is a European company that's kind of its origin story. Um, our main head office where most of our product teams, not all of them, but most of our product teams are actually based in Amsterdam. We have engineering offices as well there, but also kind of spread out across Europe. Our offices in North America there is some development and some product as well, mostly through acquisitions. When we acquired other companies we, we brought their teams into Miro and they were us based. Um, and so it's a very multicultural, very multilingual uh, company. Which is one of the things I really enjoy about Miro is just sort of the. You're talking with people from all over the world on a constant basis. And we have a very intentional from. From leadership down on what our values need to be, um, in order to collaborate in such a diverse, multinational, multinational, lingual kind of company and what values they expect to see. And then that comes right from our CEO Andre on down. And he's very, very careful and very intentional about culture. The other thing that's interesting to note is that Andre, our CEO is also a kind of a product person by in his heart he is and I keep, as you've noted, keep coming back and talking about sort of feedback. That's Andre's passion is even though he is the CEO and anytime he talks to A customer of uh, Miro, he always asks them so what do you like? What don't you like? What works for you? Tell me more about that. He's always digging deep into getting that feedback himself. And so that's the expectation that he has for all of us. If you're in the product org or not, you should be interested in how our customers are experiencing and using our product. The good, the bad and the ugly. And so that's why he very intentionally and very carefully sort of crafts these sort of cultural moments like I was talking about over beers or fail night or bad version. We have permission, we are giving ourselves permission company wide to be able to build a culture, expecting to have these conversations, uh, and honest conversations on a regular basis. We're corporate, sure. But we still maintain a lot of that uh, sort of you know, smaller startup or scale up DNA. And that's again one of the things that I love the most about Miro is that we sort of live our own values. We talk about collaboration with our customers all the time but we're always questioning and always making sure that we're living that same value that we uh, we're trying to get others to emulate in their own organizations.

Speaker A: Yeah. It is interesting that you are saying the way how you explain it because this kind of product mindset inside Miro which is international company as you explained as I also always saw it, uh, but it comes top down uh, which is basically the example comes from uh, their booth and you have a freedom and allowance uh to experiment, sometimes fail, share and learn. I feel it's very important for many organizations that the examples uh, come, come, come from the top because then you, then you are really walking the walk, not just talking.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And looking. Imagine that we are looking forward in a year or two. I know that at least for the last few looking at the last year. So Miri is also making some changes and you continue making uh, changes in the way, how you work but also where you are looking. With the MCP server you also acquired, recently reforged and you uh, you have their international team which is becoming more and more international and you kind of acquire new capabilities. I uh, would say not only uh, the features but uh, capabilities and going to the new markets. Where do you see and what kind of space do you see Miro occupying in the next year or two in the life of tech teams, not only product but everyone who builds.

Speaker B: Yeah man, uh, it's a good question what I would encourage people to do. So we have an annual conference that's called canvas Miro Canvas 2026. There's actually four cities that we're going to be in in May and June, so San Francisco, London, Sydney and Tokyo. You will get a glimpse of the future of what, what our vision for Miro for product teams, um, is going to involve. I would say that some of our existing AI capabilities. You're going to see us go even deeper with some of them. Um, you know, we have what's called the AI Sidekick in Miro, which is like a um, a thought partner and an agent on the Miro Canvas that you can use to you know, uh, brainstorm with or to do all kinds of research if you wanted to do competitive research or to do analysis of customer insights, things like that. Well, that's going to go even deeper and be even more full featured. You've mentioned our MCP already. We launched it in February and it is going to evolve and it's currently one of the products that we're seeing be adopted the fastest and the most. And our customers consequently are pushing us in directions to make it even more full featured and to allow for even more abilities and tools that you can use MCP to build Miro boards and manipulate Miro boards and pull out information from a code base and map out a diagram of what that code base should look like and ah, um, and for the team to discuss and visualize even for the non coders who can't read code, they can actually read a diagram and things like that in Miro. So our ultimate goal, I feel like Artur, is that we're trying to be the sort of like the operating system, the shared space for people across the business, not just tech teams even, but like marketing teams and finance teams and for, for all of these other um, functional areas within a business they all need a place to collaborate and they all need a place that's kind of AI first and that's the vision of Miro eventually is to get entire companies using Miro and reimagining their workflows from end to end using, using the Canvas. So if you want to see the future a little bit, come to one of our conferences. There's an online streaming event as well. I think it's on May 16 or 17. If you just search for the Miro Canvas event, you can sign up, it's of course free. You can watch some of the, some of the feature announcements that we're going to have there. So that's going to be really exciting and I think people are going to be really impressed by the Direction that we're building in. We're never done, but the direction that we're building in.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's always building, always becoming better.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Reiterating yourself, I think it's a, um, it's a right, right mindset for the future. For the future where everything is changing and what you mentioned, I, I'm looking forward also to learn more from your future. But the way how, how I see it from where I am, and I always worked in collaboration and into like demolishing those walls and silos and actually make people speak, uh, to each other. And right now it's not only making people speak to each other, but also tools speaking to each other and to people. It's basically the everyone speaking with everyone. But while tools can speak in mcp, with mcp, people can. Cannot look at MCP and understand what is being, what is being told in there. They need something visual. And I think like, having this visual tool really, really helps. And I know that you are also going to speak at productized, uh, conference in a month from now. So I would like to, I would like for our listeners to know what they can expect, especially those who cannot attend the Miro dedicated event, but who will be in our conference. They expect from your talk. You don't need to tell everything that you, you are going to say, otherwise people aren't coming. Just kidding. But what can they expect? What kind of, uh, topic are you going to touch on and what kind of feeling do you want them to live, uh, with after your talk?

Speaker B: Yeah, actually, so what we've been talking about for the last few moments is actually a great preview of what my talk at, uh, um, at product size Lisbon is going to be. So I'm really going to be talking about sort of the, the need for product teams to be what we call multiplayer. And then that multiplayer collaboration is, is you're not just siloed again, you know, you working away on your specific tool, but rather everybody is coming together and collaborating together with AI in a space that's shared, where all of the information and insights can be shared across the team. So that, that sort of multiplayer collaboration element. And then some of the things that I talked about with, uh, the changes that we've made at Miro, we're going to talk specifically about that as well. So just so that, you know, we're not just talking the talk, but we're walking the walk internally, we're doing these things that we're talking about and promoting to our customers as well that multiplayer AI enhanced, uh, collaboration effort is what we see as the future. And so that's really what the, what the thrust of my talk will be about.

Speaker A: Okay. I'm personally looking forward to it and I believe our product society and product managers who are listening to us and everyone who's listening to this podcast will also enjoy your talk during the, in the productized conference. Because the topic of collaboration and it's not, I think it's always beyond the features. The feature is just represents what you are trying to achieve and where do you see things are moving. And for our listeners now, the listeners of this podcast, what kind of the idea would you like to um, incept in their mind, like Inception, the movie, uh, for them to stay with, looking forward, looking into this new, brave new world.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, never stop learning. That's probably like the best advice. We all need to be in periods of disruption, not be content with the ways that we've always done things, but rather be very open to learning and disrupting our own ways of working and thinking about, you know, how that ultimately is going to help our customers and how that's going to help us add, um, value. So don't be afraid to, you know, grab an AI tool here and there and just go deep with it and learn with, on it and then talk about it it with, uh, with people on your team and talk about it with people online and read and learn from what others are doing. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn and I spend a lot of time reading tech blogs, uh, because there's a lot of people doing really interesting things out there that they're willing to share and that you can really benefit from. It's a brand new landscape and I feel like if people just need to show that natural curiosity and willingness to learn, you'll, you'll definitely progress in your career, but you'll also protect yourself a little bit from all of this disruption that's going on because you've brought in a whole new sort of mindset and skill set that um, that it, that is going to be truly valuable in the future.

Speaker A: I see. And I actually can subscribe myself, uh, under this statement then never stop learning. I think learning is more important nowadays than ever.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because basically you need to learn because everything is changing. So you wake up and you are waking up to a whole new world. And we almost see memes online. Speaking also on LinkedIn, you are returning from, I don't know, your paternity leave or holidays and suddenly everything changed and you are entering the new company and your competitive landscape. So I would really incentivize everyone who's listening to us to, uh, well, buy the tickets to the Productized if you don't have them yet. Join us if you want to see Dave, um, sharing his insights and sharing the new features and the new ways of collaborate. More than more, uh, than feature. And this collaborative vision for the builders, for product managers, and for the companies, for businesses. We will be in Lisbon on 18th and 19th of June. Long days, short night, 23 hours of conference. Just kidding. Uh, we're going to have some breaks. It is going to be great. I really want to thank you, Dave, for this moment, for sharing and for staying with us throughout this podcast. I think for me it was super valuable. And uh, I. Your message resonated with me deeply and I believe many of our listeners also find it insightful.

Speaker B: That's great. Well, thanks for having me, Artur. And yes, looking forward to seeing you and everyone else at the Productize conference. Um, looking forward to learning too. I'm not just. Everybody has something to learn and something to teach, right? So I'm looking forward to learning from all the other speakers and the attendees as well. So. So look forward to it.

Speaker A: Thank you, Dave. I think we all going to be there learning something from someone. Great attitude. As you said, walk the walk. Thank you. Awesome.

Speaker B: Um, thank you. Take care.