The shift from selling to strategic partner with John La Vecchia

Speaker A: Welcome to if Prices Could Talk, a podcast where we explore how pricing, sales and negotiation drive growth. Brought to you by Holden Advisors.

Speaker B: Let's dive in.

Speaker A: So, yeah, to start us off, first of all, uh, thanks, uh, to everybody who's watching and participating in this podcast today. Uh, we really want to focus on building sales teams that are more than sellers. They really become strategic partners for our customers and, uh, help us to negotiate and defend the value that we create for our customers. So with us today we have John Levecki. Uh, John Lavecchia is the Chief Revenue Officer for Equifax Canada, where He has over 30 years experience building Equifax into the premier business partner in Canada for credit solutions, data verification, digital commerce, and more. In my work with him, it is evident that John is dedicated to building sales teams that understand customer value. Uh, and that growth comes from, from being a true strategic partner. So, John, thanks for being here with us today. Good morning.

Speaker C: Good morning. Good morning, Travis. Good morning, Brian. How are you today?

Speaker B: We're great. Good to see you, man.

Speaker C: Awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker A: We also have, as you see with us, Brian Doyle. He is the president and CEO of Holden Advisors, and he works closely with clients and teams on pricing and value focused initiatives like John Lavecchia and his team. Um, as an executive coach, he has helped organizations across the Globe earn over 2 billion in new business. So we're always glad to have Brian Doyle with us.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me, Travis.

Speaker A: Yeah. So to start us off, I think one of the things that would be interesting to hear and it's always kind of fun to share those war stories, uh, John, is maybe start us off with some of the negotiation challenges or challenges that you have, uh, in that negotiation space with your teams.

Speaker C: Well, you know what, I don't know if it's challenges, but I think it's just an evolution of how the world has gone, uh, with professional negotiators, uh, we, uh, call them procurement officers. Uh, you know, the changes in how businesses are structured. Um, you know, like, uh, it depends on, are you dealing with a global organization, a local organization? Are, uh, you dealing with a local regional player in the state or a province like here in Canada? Uh, so you know, who you, who you're working with and how you are trying to collaborate your value with that partner is, uh, something that you have to be, you know, it's not just one way all the time. There's nothing regular about the world today. Um, um, and you have to be prepared for that. So I try to bring in the professionals. Uh, because I do believe in my heart of hearts that the sales profession is a profession made up of professionals. Um, you tune up your team with the right Personas, uh, that can walk into those environments that I talked about and can execute in understanding what the main objective of that opportunity you're talking about will provide to that business, what the real value is. And not just a statement. We try to make it like material, like you know, what is the number? Okay, what does time cost you not to act? And you know, having those conversations not with the procurement officer, but you know, the business line leaders or the president of that regional bank or the chief executive officer of that division in which you are, you're interacting with. So you know, uh, it really is a fun time here, uh, in the world. And I think um, what I'm seeing now is more and more businesses are really relying on pros. Uh, and um, it's getting, and it's getting to be um, a really um, exciting time to be, to be working in business, uh, in North America, uh, and around the world, to be honest with you. We can, we can lead um, our, our countries, we can leave our value in North America, around the world by taking different approaches. And uh, you see now with world uh, trade, you see it with global trade and we see how uh, the importance of collaborating even with other countries. And you're seeing it being played out, um, uh, on the news every day. And you know, you laugh, you laugh. It's like, oh my God, like he actually showed his card or like, you know, what he, you know, what somebody, somebody you know made up, uh, uh, you know, uh, what their limit is or what their walking away point is like. It's crazy, but they do it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It is amazing to see it play out, negotiations play out, international relations, um, uh, cross country businesses within country businesses. It's amazing. And um, John, you made a really important point where you said, hey, we're going to express our value, we're going to quantify our value, get to the numbers like you said. How um, does that differ when it's talking to a business line leader like you're referring to, versus a uh, procurement person. Like how does what you talk about is different and then the timing is different too, right?

Speaker C: Well, a procurement officer, you really get. You're, you know, you're talking with trained pros, you're talking with people whose jobs are to cut costs is to you know, try uh, to throw you in the corner of uh, you know, uh, that word that I don't even want to use. You know, are you a X? Um, you know, a utility? Uh, you know, are you just something that, that doesn't have as much value or, you know, can I compare you with five other. Other suppliers? I guess you separate the person from the problem all the time. I mean, but you got to walk in with your best. When you're with the procurement officer, and it is a different setup, uh, and it is a different meeting. Okay. And maybe you're not walking in with the entourage, talking about some of the value you're providing to the business

Speaker B: in

Speaker C: the same way in which you're talking to the business about that same value. So maybe with procurement officers, you are talking about time and trying to put a, Put a, Put a value on time and what this. Doing and encourage them to go talk to the business. Um, you know, sometimes it's not answering and not reacting. Silence is the, Is the. You know what sometimes we say, you know, doing nothing is powerful. Um, you know, uh, but I think what we have to always remember, and I tell this to my kids who play sports, is when you're in a battle, when you're interacting with an opponent, um, they're not your friends, but you still have to respect how you interact and how you talk to them. And, uh, you know, you see that. You can see that on the procurement floors, in the negotiation rooms in which we walk in. I think there's a, There's a, There's a, There's a way in which we can be humble. Uh, there's a way in which we can be respectful. Um, there's a way in which we can walk the procurement officer through the experience that we have. But you, it's. But, you know, you go back to, is it a poker game, is it a sports game, is it something that we're watching on TV as a highlight and people commenting on it? And we have these great, great, great evening, uh, roundtables on TV where you see people debating, you know, uh, you know, how, uh, how a leader in the world either negotiated something or opened up negotiations or something. You know, um, but what you really boils down to is you got to be clear. I always say we got to try to be humble and respectful, and you have to have courage and you have to keep your confidence. Uh, they're going to try to, they're going to try to hit you on all those things. But you know what? They're human. And when you walk out of that room, you just want them to represent or ask the questions, uh, to that business line. And um, so there's another technique that I like to use. It's like, what can I leave that procurement officer with to go and ask that right question to the business? What question do I want to leave this meeting in the mind of that procurement officer that after he met my team or met me or met uh, whoever was in the meeting with our, uh, with Equifax, it's how, what would we imagine the next conversation would be? Sometimes we just think about, oh, we're going to this meeting with the procurement officer. There is always a follow up meeting about the meeting. So, um, you know, think about that a little bit.

Speaker A: John, I really like that analogy you're talking about. Even in sports or poker, whatever it is, whatever that game analogy is, everyone's good people, but they have opposing goals, right? And so you need to go into that knowing that, hey, we got to handle this. But there are definitely opposing goals here. And the recommendation to man, encourage procurement to go talk to people within the business is really smart. Um, how do you make sure, or what are recommendations that you would have to make sure that when you send procurement out that they're going to get a response that's favorable, that those people understand what you're trying to do. Other people in the business around procurement,

Speaker C: well, what I'll tell you is make sure you don't talk about numbers to them. Let them talk about the numbers. Okay? Uh, so don't. It's not about presenting the numbers, it's presenting them with, asking them. Do you, do you understand what delaying this decision would mean to the business? Do you understand how that relates to a critical success of the executive team or of um, a priority within that business? And when we talk about how is AI transforming our world, it's making it so much easier. You can AI who you're meeting with, what their priorities are, and you can bring it right down to the amount of clients they're interacting with. And you can start, uh, your calculations on throwing out not a pricing number, but hey, Delaying this by 30 days, by 2 weeks equals X to your business. And it means that, you know, Travis or Brian are not going to have the success that their objectives were set out to be, you know, four months ago, five months ago. And you know, as much as you can relate it to the business. Remember the procurement officers representing a business, so enable them to come back with some of the business objectives. So you're mixing some of the business objectives into that conversation when you can, uh, try to relate it to a person, not a business line. If you can. And, uh, that's where the professionalism of the sales goes. Like, imagine you have a sales professional that has a professional procurement team, uh, in front of your opportunity. Well, you got to start thinking about that at the top of the pipeline and at the bottom of the pipeline, and you got to start creating your procurement plan and then you're starting on, you know, what's the business line talking about? What are the priorities of the business and how we, how are we developing this and really procurement. I look at it now as one of the biggest influences of, uh, time to revenue from my business. And you, uh, want that expertise to be, uh, to be really prepared. So we spend a lot of time preparing to engage clients, to prepare to define our value. You got to spend the same amount of time preparing to, to deal with that procurement officer. The worst thing you can have is, oh, I talked to the procurement officer for five minutes. He gave me a checkpoint. You know, he's shopping us. Like, you talk to the procurement officer for five minutes and Holly told you is. And you let him go or you let her go, you know, and, uh, it's, uh, you know, it's a fun world.

Speaker A: Brian, I know you talk about this all the time too. How do we get past procurement? Um, share with us some of your experience in helping people connect deeper into that organization.

Speaker B: Yeah, so John and I have worked together over the years, and so, you know, I've got to see him do this really well. Um, and it's something that applies to Equifax, to, applies to data, applies to, um, everything else, all the other different, uh, industries that we work with as well. And, and um, he's saying it in, in, in that you need to be having quality conversations with not, um, only procurement, but the business people need to get in front of the business folks. You need to talk to them about what matters to them so you can reflect it back into procurement. You can, as John said, tee up procurement to, uh, hey, well, why don't you go ask so and so what's important to them? And like any court case, anytime you see the lawyers on tv, they're always saying, don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to. That's what John's doing. He already knows the answer. He knows how critical his product and service are to this business line leader because he's had those conversations well in advance of any kind of, um, RFP or any kind of detailed conversation with procurement. And so he's going to have those conversations, uh, and we see that John and I have worked together with some big banks, um, with other financial services institutions. And um, when you can get to those leaders first and you know what's important to them, that makes everything downstream so much easier. And sometimes you come back around to them and say, this is what I'm hearing from procurement. Procurement is telling me they don't need the high quality, better solution that I provide. They're telling me they just want the low cost one. And so I just want to make sure you, business M line leader, are okay with us sliding down that quality scale. And of course they're like, no, we've talked about this and I've seen it, I've seen it before where they say, give me five minutes. They hang up the phone, they make a phone call to the procurement professional. They get back on the phone with somebody like John and they go, I took care of it. We're going with the premium version of this. Sorry for the confusion. Let's keep going.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: We, um, you know, uh, one of the best stories was, um, we were negotiating, uh, with a bank in Canada. Um, they're a global player and um, they had talked to us in other countries and they started saying, hey, you know, we look at you here in this region of the world as this, we look at you at this region of the world. As I said, that's, that's great how you look at us, you know, um, so John, you know what? And the preeminent officer goes, what's your perspective? Well, you know what, I've known Mark for five years, had the same account team, account lead rep on him for two years. Um, we know all of the analysts on that team and we've done seven studies, uh, with that group. You should go talk to them about, you know, who we are and what we're trying to do with your business. And um, you know, those about five or six big things and they're a really big advanced, they're very successful and they're, they know data is like, you know, they'll say, we know data is better. As good as Equifax knows data. And um, you know, their whole strategy is, you know, the best information makes the best decisions to make. You know, bring in the best clients, but they don't want to pay. Uh, well, that's what the procurement officer says.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: The best call was we've booked a hotel with two negotiate with um, uh, three rooms. We want to meet you and go through your proposal. And then we're going to have two breakout rooms and we Want to lock down the negotiations. We were in month six of the negotiation. Um, we were the primary supplier, so we were always providing them data. So the delays wasn't. But in that case we just use patience, you know, and we used every. And then we got to a point where the conversations became so transparent and that's why they had to bring us to this hotel to do it. Because we had, uh, inside supporters calling us and saying, hey, take this approach. And then we're like, you know what, you go back to your procurement officer and tell them this is what the answer. And as soon as he heard that they were mortified. That team was mortified. And it wasn't just one procurement officer, they were a team. They were a team of three. So, you know, um, and there's a lot of angst whenever that happens. Like, you know, imagine what happens in the Equifax world. You know, you might get a call from the United States, the Mothership, or, or Europe and say, I heard you're like going off site to like, it's really tough negotiations. Oh yeah, it's very, very incredible negotiations. Yeah. Like, are you worried? Uh, not that worried today because I think more people that we're doing business with today understand our value at that business. So it's going to be interesting on, uh, what priorities we're going to find and define in that negotiation today. So, you know, what I always try to do is when we have one of those big days, meet with my team before and then have that like 10 minutes of, okay, let's forget about everything, let's get our priorities straight and let's go in there with a clean mind. That day I told him, I said, I'm going to be very, very directive. I want to walk away with three business priorities, meaning I want to know what the orders are and when we're going to launch them. By one o' clock that afternoon, we had the deal signed and we were talking about, okay, let's talk about the business priorities. What are we going to move forward? What's what, what really is our priority. And you know what? You find out some things at that time. It, it's uh, a never ending interaction with people, with relationships and understanding where every Persona is at that point in time. And it can change with a promotion, it could change with a leadership team, and uh, it could change with the last negotiation that wasn't as successful.

Speaker B: Yeah. Hey, uh, John, you're a chief revenue officer, very senior leader. Um, you have this clearly. I'm just based on what you're saying, and in our interactions beforehand, um, you clearly know what you're doing, but you've got layers below you. And so how do you, and maybe if you give us example of how you do it, how do you drive that understanding of value, understanding the game, understanding all these things that you're describing here, down 1, 2, 3 layers in your organization so everybody gets it.

Speaker C: Um, I'm a leader for a long time and I'm not the best at what I do. I try to find professionals that are and I try to hire professionals that are better than I ever was whenever I walked in here and that are better than me. So what I do within my, my teams and I run like um, an auto vertical, I run an insurance vertical, I run a public sector vert vertical. Uh, it could be banking, it could be regional banks. I'll bring teams together about five and I'll encourage the sales professional to say, hey, let's talk about this opportunity for 30 minutes. Let's bring five people together. Let's try to bring people from other sales teams, people from other environments. Present your value proposition, present where you are right now. And it could be at the top of the funnel where you just qualifying and developing opportunities and you want some direction. And what I do is I host a call and it basically goes like this, hey, we're all together, uh, we're going to talk about ABC opportunity. Then what we're going to do is we're going to ask some clarifying questions and then we're going to give some tips to Brian and to Travis who are managing this customer. And all I ask is that this team walks in and we're all equal in the team and in that role, that rep owns the customer. They're ultimately empowered to make that decision, but they get to use us as advisors. So we're working for them to try to find something different. The worst thing that we can do is be directive and go down and say do this without getting three or four other people to think about, hey, is this really the right thing to do? Now we bring, and that's the hardest thing because we bring years of experience. Sometimes we've seen this before. I can tell you that in the last couple of years since I've been doing these uh, workouts, uh, it's not what I've seen before, it's what I could see, what I saw last week or what I'm seeing in front of me at this point in time because things change so fast.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: So you know what? It's trying to get uh, a voice of opinion, uh, trying to get a reason, uh, trying to get in some other experiences that might relate or might correlate to this experience and trying to harvest different point of views because it doesn't matter how big your sales organization is, but even if you plan right internally and have some of these scrums or some of these, um, some of these, what I call them a workout, you can take a smaller organization and make it pretty powerful and empower those people to go in and have a really good interaction as you build and scale your business. And then what I also use it as is for the new folks that enter the business that are client facing and then we'll debate. Is everyone not client facing? If you're a business, we're all here for our customers. But to bring them into those uh, into those uh, scrums and those uh, power, uh, power chats and uh, you're starting to harvest some of the new talent that you're bringing to the company and to get new opinions. I learned something last week that was just crazy, uh, about something that I never realized was existing in our business for a couple of years that could be used, uh, by a new hire. It's about giving people the time.

Speaker A: Yeah, John, I really appreciate that. And as we've worked with you, I noticed that, you know, when we work with teams, it's not just the sales guys we have or the salespeople. We have representation, uh, from lots of different uh, arms within the organization and they get to come together, they get to share information and it really helps deepen uh, the conversation that customers have, uh, for. So I'm thinking about for newer SVPs that are out there, people that are working within their own organization, um, maybe some recommendations that you can give. Are there metrics or what things do you look for in your team? Because as you have new guys come on that help you identify. We need a tune up in this area or here's some things where we need help to make sure that we're truly staying a strategic partner. What should other people be looking for in their teams to identify areas where as you said, we need a tune up.

Speaker C: I think we can get lost in salesforce. We can get lost in operating uh, pipelines. I think, uh, I think if you're managing leaders, uh, you know, what are your top 10 opportunities? What are your like, you know, defining what like, you know, every week when you're meeting with your leaders and the leaders are meeting with their teams, you know, at the end of the day, what's the funnel look like, you know, what's closing, what's developing, what's coming in at the top and always, uh, making that, you know, a priority because that is what your business is here for. Like, this is what we are here for. We're here to activate new solutions, to create new value, to allow more wealth for our businesses and more success for our businesses. So what I always try to tell new executives is you're coming in here and you're learning everything. Hey, but on that first meeting with your, and your, your sales leader and it's those, that's your team. You're, you know, just keep it, keep it humble. Ask everybody what are your, what are your top her, what are you working on? And then from there you start honing down on how do I support these opportunities. And then you're starting to learn your value propositions. Then you're starting to get into understanding who the buying Personas are. You're interacting with your clients, you're getting your client meetings and everything else. Some of the biggest mistakes that I've seen in businesses, I want, they walk in and they say, oh, who are the top 10 clients? I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go see them. You know, okay, uh, go see them. What are you gonna talk about? Oh, I'm gonna look at what their business priorities are and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go meet them. Well, why don't we do a couple of opportunity reviews for like a half an hour and you keep your thought on all the stuff that you Learned about those 10 customers and all their excitement there. And once you find about the value proposition, about three or four of those opportunities. And wouldn't it be great if you go and have lunch with Brian, you know, and tell them how excited you are for the role? You know, this is how you understand his priorities. He starts talking about his priorities and then you leave him with two value props for your sales team. You know, a little different. Ah.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah, John, there's uh, here's an understatement for you. There is a lot of, um, uncertainty and turbulence in the world today. It's opportunity. Opportunity. There you go. Um, so when you go speak with your customers and you want to talk to them about a new product or service, or you want to talk to them about price change and it's time for them to pay a little bit more for this great value that you're providing, how do you keep them focused on the value that you provide and how you help them versus all the noise that's in the world and swirling around their brain.

Speaker C: Um, well, you don't avoid that conversation. Um, you, you should be prepared for those conversations. And um, you know, and listen to, listen to. Let's say that this is the business person that you're talking to, that you're informing them that, you know, um, because of whatever valuable, uh, information is out there that you're both agreeing on, this world has changed for them. It could be regulatory, it could be, it could be what's going on in the world today on many fronts. Um, again, it all goes back down to how does this relate to the Persona that you're meeting with? And are you instilling confidence that your business is going to be viable, it's going to be ready? We at Equifax, you know, we have, we have pride that says, you know what, it doesn't matter what the economic condition is, we have tools to remedy, tools to react to it. Uh, it's just the nature of our business. We're in a very, very lucky place. Um, but I would, I would stress that any important sales meeting, that if you're meeting with a, if you're a sales professional, you're meeting with a business leader, that whatever value you're, you have as a business, they're giving you time. So there must be something important that you're meeting with that business for. Um, and, and just always bring it back to what are the goals and opportunities and what is that executive trying to execute and how you're going to do that? Um, I think businesses and sales professionals should never be shy and should know when to talk about what the future looks like with their business, what their roadmaps are.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, shame on you if you're waiting for that. On the price increase conversation, you know, um, you know, we, we talk a little bit about interacting clients on one, on one. And then what's the formal interaction? Either look, presenting scorecards or presenting a business, you know, a business update to the executive team. And our executive team, like in those, there's ways to plant. But again, you know, a year before, six months before that, this top 30 client is in a situation where you want to adjust price. Um, you should be, you should be thinking about that at least six months out and looking at the interactions and then, you know, subtle messages about, hey, we're going to increase some value here for you, but you know what, we're going to win together on this one. Brian, I've kept you here for three years, but you know what the next thing is I'm going to make you X amount millions of dollars on this activation. And um, I'm going to reap some rewards on this side. You don't have that in that first conversation, but what you want to have is when you do have that big formal conversation with Brian that you're able to talk about that and tie it back to either a past success or a success that's coming down the line. Um, I think businesses, uh, need to be really, uh, prepared, uh, to change some of these solutions. When you look at AI and the cost, uh, uh, to implement AI, people will think, hey, AI is great. It's going to replace XYZ processes in the business. Um, and people start realizing how much energy it takes, what the cost is going to be to be the back office for some of these solutions and services. We have to start preparing, uh, businesses for. With every change, um, comes an opportunity to learn more. Um, and I think AI is a real good definition of how we represent AI and how you, uh, either, you know, at Equifax we call it explainable AI. Uh, we have a record amount of patents on how we understand data and we take a lot of pride in that. Um, but you know, we have, we have great partners and who our partners are to help us implement and help us execute on time, on availability, on quality. Um, that means something.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that last little bit there, John, is particularly important because what we're seeing, ah, across the industries that we participate in is that everybody's got some sort of AI solution and customers sometimes can't tell if it's AI driven by the guy living in his mom's basement or is it AI that's really going to make a difference like you're describing? And so all they can tell at first blush is, well, the guy in the basement is 25% of the cost of Equifax. So should I just go with 25%, uh, 25% price? Should I try to get Equifax down? Like, how do I think about this? But when you can frame what you've just described, quality is better, the speed's better, the outcomes are better, then it becomes more clear like, I don't want to deal with the guy in the basement. I want to deal with John Lavecchia because he's going to get me what I need to go make more money or save costs or minimize my risk or whatever it is that you're doing to make that customer more successful.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, and you're hoping that the sales professionals talk a Little bit about. Listen, also going to share with you what the roadmap is for this idea that we have. We're going to scale what we're doing. So you know John, uh, Kite in the basement that's doing xyz. Okay, maybe he's coming out of the hole this way. But you know what, what happens tomorrow if, um, you can't afford to calculate all those things he's doing for you? Or do you want to come to a business that talks about, you know, AI explainable AI that's building an environment to execute, building an environment not for today, but for tomorrow, and has a passion to understand this and to learn, and also has a culture that says, and this is where you start bringing, hey, would you like to work with a company that's patented, in our case over hundreds of AI explainable patents? And do you want to interact with us on a quarterly basis and talk about what we've learned, uh, talk a little bit about, you know, how we're implementing maybe some new techniques, trends we're seeing? Um, it just, it just goes on and on and on and on. And um, again, uh, you know, it's a lot of, uh, it's a lot of an unknown. Okay. So you just got to open up that, that interaction between your customers and your business. And uh, at Equifax, I'm really proud about the value and the expertise I have around AI. It's the best in the world. And uh, it's exciting times. That's all I can say. It's super, super exciting times.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Hey, so thinking back to your early years, right, uh, can you recall either, um, advice you got or recommendation you got, or a lesson that you learned relative to negotiation and how that changed your path going forward?

Speaker C: It was a very directive world. Whenever I started in the business, everybody knew what they were going to do. It was very individual, uh, sales reps, it was very much, what's your quota? You know, how you're going to get from here to there? CRMs, uh, were just coming into play. Um, you know, the, you know, it was all about, hey, you know What? Charlie's got 117 opportunities worth X million dollars versus Sherry, that's got two opportunities this week worth this. Um, one thing is watch out on the CRM. It could be your friend, but it can hurt you big time. And don't get comfortable behind the CRM. Mhm. Remember that what's in that CRM needs to be managed, needs to be coached, needs to be talked about. And if all you're talking about the number in the CRM, that's not a sales professional. So that's the first thing. It's, you know what, understand that CRM and sales and, um, don't use it as a weapon. Uh, the other One is a, AAA personality. I don't work 40 hours a week. I like to work until I'm exhausted. I, uh, love what I do and give, um, people space,

Speaker A: you know, elaborate on that. Give people space.

Speaker C: You know, I, I, I joke around, but, um, I have a mouthpiece. Literally throw in the mouthpiece sometimes just let them talk. Remember when I earlier I was talking about, you know, bringing our teams together and letting them talk about the three, three items, which is, you know, talk about the opportunity, ask clarifying questions, like, you know, what, clarifying questions on what, what the rep talked about. And then the rep, I say, hey, what's your advice? After the rep says, this is what I intended to do in the next two weeks, then you ask, you know, in that first one and two part, just let them talk. So again, and, you know, and open up, uh, customer representation to other stakeholders. And that was unheard of. Like, uh, you know, when I first got, like, you call somebody, hey, hey, Brian, do you want to give me a half an hour to listen to my opportunity to give me some advice on how I'm going to be successful for my client on Friday morning? Okay. Um, for, you know, and, oh, by the way, I'm going to bring Kelly and Brian and Travis on that call. And I know that you and Travis really don't get along, but I want to get their opinion because they have a different point of view. Okay. Like, like 10 years ago would have been like, I don't think I'm going to do that because, you know what? On the ranking report, you're number one and I'm number three and I want to beat you. And you know, now it's, it's a little different. And, um, yeah. And the other, I think I realized, um, if you're going to rank and you're going to rank your. And everybody likes to rank because I like who's number one. I want to know who's number one and who's at the bottom. You know, do it in teams, do it in groups, and do it in squads, because if you just rank at the individual level and not part of that team. So if you have three or four teams, rank them individually and let those teams respond to the other teams. It's more important and more powerful than having an individual react to an individual. So you know, with having like three, four sales leaders always around me, um, you know, talking about their team performance and what they're going to do as a team to perform better than the other team versus in the old days it's like, hey, what's that person doing?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Now actually it's changed so much that if someone is not successful in my organization, I'm asking myself and the manager, how much time are we going to spend with uh, with uh, with Jennifer because we want to get her from uh, from 70% to over 115%. And uh, what are the four or five opportunities we should uh, bring into a conversation, you know, as pale as um, you know, as a CRO in any company, our job is to keep our teams out of potholes and out of the ditch. And part of that is looking at performance and uh, not. And you know what, and getting them the help that they can. And we can't be the hero all the time.

Speaker A: There's one of you and, and many of them, bringing them along will raise, raise all boats. Right? If we can improve their skills, we can raise all boats.

Speaker C: So yeah.

Speaker A: Excellent. Hey John, thanks for your recommendations. Your advice was a lot of good nuggets that came out of this discussion today. Brian as well, your experience is always invaluable. Um, it's great to get together and to have these kinds of conversations and so thank you for being here.

Speaker C: Thank you very much for your time and good luck to everybody in this new world.

Speaker B: Thanks a lot John. It's great having you.

Speaker C: Bye. Bye.