Boring is the Destination: Why Stablecoins Will Win When Nobody Notices Them

Mainstream means my mum can use it and she doesn't care about gas fees or networks or anything like that. She just wants to move money from point A to point B and make that as simple as possible. So stablecoins will win when they're literally as boring as a card payment. Welcome to the Issua Academy, paymentology's podcast to innovate, scale and provide impact. I'm your host, Miru Shenaidu. If you're a fintech professional banking leader or an innovator in the digital payment space, you're in the right place. Here we deep dive into the challenges and triumphs of launching next generation card programs. From virtual cards and digital wallets to cross border FX solutions. Let's get started. Welcome back to the ISHO Academy. Today we're talking about a part of the payments industry that's generating huge amounts of conversation right now. Stablecoins, digital wallets, and what all of this could mean for the future of payments. Because for years the industry has talked about blockchain and traditional payments almost like they were competing worlds. But increasingly that's changing. Cards, bank transfers, wallets, stablecoins, they're all starting to connect together in ways that could completely reshape how money moves globally. So what does this actually mean in practice? To unpack all of this, I am joined by two brilliant guests. Firstly, we have Stefan Collins, COO and Head of Strategy and Product at Venly, who's been deeply involved in building infrastructure around stablecoin settlements, wallets and card issuance. Welcome, Stefan. Thank you for having me. And alongside him we have our very own Tim Justin, CTO at Paymentology, who spends his time thinking about the infrastructure powering the next generation of global payment. Welcome, Tim. Thank you, Stefan. Tim, welcome to the Issue Academy. Tim, you're a veteran. Stefan, welcome. We're excited to have you. This is the hot topic. Let's start with a little icebreaker. What was the moment where each of you realized that stablecoins were becoming something the wider payments industry actually needed to take seriously? Stefan, I'm going to start with you. Yeah. So for us, it was after 2022, so we were a blockchain tech company providing wallets, APIs, SDKs, serv, gaming platforms and NFT platforms. But suddenly treasury companies start calling us, asking for how can we actually move our stablecoin Treasury USD to our bank account? And that's the first time that we saw like, okay, has nothing to do with NFTs anymore, has nothing to do with tokens. It was all about value. How can they move value from the chain to the traditional world? Has nothing to do with the hype, was nothing to do with crypto. So that was the first time that when the CFO is calling, asking you to move the money that we had an ideal, okay, the market is moving, the narrative is changing and the market finding a practical use case for it. Right? Yeah, we were looking for that for a long time. Like in 2022 it was all about NFTs. There was a big hype. Suddenly the market collapsed and then you were asking what is now really the narrative and use case of blockchain. AI took over. So blockchain was pushed away and now you see again it's coming all together. So we're very happy to see what's happening here. Absolutely. The hype is real now I should say it's not really a hype, it's a hype on stablecoins as a word, but the technology is actually delivering what it always promised to do. So I think it's a very, very good way forward here. Absolutely. And Tim, from your perspective, I agree with a lot of that. I mean, I think for me it wasn't a single headline moment, it was watching the flows. So if, you know, we process in over 60 countries and a few years back stablecoins were just a kind of a crypto curiosity. And the shift is when you started to see them being used as plumbing rather than as an asset. So it was just, you know, businesses moving money, cross border paying out in markets where the kind of the banking rails are maybe broken the other end. And so the moment it clicked is when you realize that people using stablecoins weren't trading anything, they were just simply trying to move money. And that, you know, at that point that's not speculation, that's actually, that's a problem, a payments problem that's being solved. And I think that's really interesting because when we look at the use cases like cross border payments to pay for goods and services, but without that currency volatility. So it's real time use case or real life use cases, but just different rails and different mechanisms of making them. Right, let's look at the shift happening across payments. So we've touched on it a little bit. But Stefan, one of the things you said in your presentation today is the rails aren't competing, they're converging. And I thought that was a really interesting way of framing what's happening right now. So Stefan, what does this actually mean in simple terms? Yeah, so in simple terms it means like when a customer sitting here in Amsterdam holding stablecoin in his wallet, he wants to pay for at a restaurant, he pays with a card or he wants to play a supplier via sepa or he is sending money to a contractor in the Philippines. It's the same wallet, it's the same customer, but they're actually using three different rails. And in the old system, the old model, you had to pick your rail and that was the rail that was sending money over today. What I mean with converging, it's the platform that decides actually the optimal route based on the use case of the user. So if I want to send money to the Philippines, the system will detect what's the best optimal route based on the cost, the speed and the corridor is. And if I want to pay something here in Europe, it will be via sepa. So maybe there's no fix happening here. So it all depends on how smart the engine, the routing engine is. And this is, I think, what. Yeah. What makes it simple for us. Yeah. What I really love about that is you're taking that kind of, you're providing the customer with options, but it's embedded options. So not having to make a real time decision or what do I use, it's embedded in the service which is creating a much better customer experience. Yeah. And I think today if you pay with a card, you don't think about what protocol is sending my money from my bank account to another one. It's the same what's now happening with the stablecoins, but now it's on a global scale. It's nothing to do on a domestic one. It's now global, which is block was always global in its DNA. And that's why it's quite interesting to see how you now can connect different jurisdictions based on technology. Absolutely. And Tim, are you seeing the same shift happening from the issue processing side as well? Yeah, absolutely. And I'll go further as well. I think from my perspective, convergence isn't a prediction. It's already happening today. It's operational. A card transaction in a stablecoin settlement increasingly are hitting the same back end. So you know, the authorization, the ledger entry, the compliance check, the reconciliation, it's all the same kind of backend systems, the same machinery, whether the value started life as a bank balance or a stablecoin. But what's changed is now the funding source has just become abstracted. So the cardholder taps, they don't know and shouldn't need to know whether that's drawing on a fiat balance or it's drawing on stablecoin Wallet. Our job as a processor is to make that distinction invisible at the point of interaction, but completely auditable behind it. So yes, I completely agree with Stefan. The Rails are converging and the place they do converge more so is at the processing layer. Yeah, absolutely. What's great about this is that abstraction layer. Customers still have full access, but the process is actually enabling all of the different Rails and routing. So again, customers don't have to worry about it, it just happens seamlessly in the background, which I think is what customers want, because most people don't understand what stablecoins are, which is why we're going to look at stablecoins beyond the buzzwords. There's obviously a lot of hype around stablecoins. I think we're at Money20 20 this week and everyone's talking about it. So what is interesting is that many of the real use cases seem a lot more practical than what people actually expect when they hear stablecoin. They're thinking things like NFTs. Right. Stefan, where are you seeing stablecoins genuinely solving problems today? Yeah, there are a few, but I can think about at least three of them and one is a very common one is cross border settlement. So imagine you want to move Euro to the United States. It's slow. Like if you now use the traditional way, it's via Swift, it's very slow, it's expensive. But imagine, and it's not imagined anymore if you can send out on chain money, so you convert fiat into stablecoins. So imagine I convert euro into stablecoin, I use stablecoin Rails to send it over to the United States and in the United States I can convert it back to fiat Fiat. So and this is actually how what they call stablecoin sandwich, the stablecoin sandwich is quite interesting because it's still fiat to fiat, but then in between you use stablecoin as a layer. A second one is on and off ramping for crypto native businesses, because there are still crypto native businesses, foundations, Daos protocol, they sit on a big stack of stablecoins, but they also need to pay salaries, they need to settle invoices. So how can they on and off ramp on a very compliant way? And this is a second very interesting use case that the space now can serve them with compliant Rails. Right. And the third one is the card spending. So card funded spending is if a user has a wallet, he wants to spend the balance on the wallet just by tapping his card on the terminal. So, and this is also Quite interesting that the card program is converting the stablecoin at the moment of spending and this is very, very interesting. And again, there are a lot of other ones in treasury and depositing and tokenization and all this stuff of onchain. But I think these are three very interesting use cases we see today in Stablecoin world. I must say I do love stablecoin sandwich because I think most people who listen to the podcast are going to actually understand what that means because the fact that you're able to wrap around two fiat payments using stablecoin Rails is so powerful. Right? Tim, from your perspective, what needs to happen before this truly becomes mainstream? Because we're hearing from Stefan that it's being practically used, but it's not mainstream yet. What's your perspective? There's three things and ironically none of it's the technology. I think that bit largely actually works today. I think we need regulatory clarity across borders. So, you know, if a payment starts in one place, in one regulatory regime, but ends up in a different place with a different regulatory regime, that that causes issues or no regulation at all. And then you're in a gray area. So, you know, we've had regulation in Europe, we've seen the US moving with the Genius act and actually that's been the biggest unlock and you know, we've seen volumes explode since, you know, since that came into force. I think secondly, the experience has to just disappear. So mainstream means my mum can use it and you know, she doesn't care about gas fees or networks or anything like that. She just wants to move money from point A to point B and make that as simple as possible. So they need, you know, stablecoins will win when they're literally as boring as a card payment. I think that's, you know, that's how I see it. And then thirdly, I think, and this is one that people underestimate, is it's just the boring infrastructure that we take for granted that we have around other payments. So reconciliation, dispute handling, chargebacks, consumer expects that if something goes wrong, someone will fix it. And you know, crypto rails largely have been built without safety nets. You know, it's just, you know, you move something from point A to point B, you end up with the, with the sender taking all of the risk, regardless of the situation. So until we get kind of industrial grade kind of safety nets and, you know, for want of a better word, schemes around some of these things, we won't get mass consumer adoption. That's a fantastic point. Firstly, becoming boring is a Good thing in this case, right? But you're absolutely right. Customers are still nervous about around the risk when it comes to stablecoin. And until chargebacks is a fantastic example of that, there's still no direct way to initiate a chargeback from a customer perspective. Especially if you're looking at a stablecoin sandwich. How would that work? What does that look like? So definitely key areas for both regulators and schemes to start considering around how we manage stablecoins in a. In a better way to both of you, what do you think people outside the industry still misunderstand most about stablecoins? Stefan, I'll go to you first. I think most people think that stablecoins are still something to do with crypto volatility, that this is for investing, that it has something to do with bitcoin. It's scam, it's not real money. And based on the previous question, which is interesting, people trust banks to take custody of their fiat money. A wallet is actually doing the same, but for the digital asset. So a stablecoin is spec'd, you have different stablecoins, it's pegged by the dollar. You have European stablecoins backed by the euro. A stablecoin as how I see it, is actually not only cryptocurrency, it's not a currency, it's also an infrastructure that helps moving value on chain. And I think if you have the combination of a currency when you do trading, because it's always from a currency back to a stablecoin to be stable to not being affected to the stable or the volatile market. And secondly it's technology that helps moving money globally. So I think that is a misperception that I see and it's our job here around the table to educate people that stablecoin is secure. It's the infrastructure that is moving money and it's just the way how we educate people and make them more comfortable and using stablecoins to move money along. Absolutely. I think using that, you know that terminology to say, look, stablecoin is the new infrastructure of new payment rails that I think makes it clearer and not as makes it sound less scary, let's put it that way. Tim, over to you, what do you think? I mean, I'd agree with that. I think that's still probably the number one misconception is that people think stablecoins equals crypto volatility. So they think bitcoin price swings and things like that. And as you say, it's infrastructure they need to understand and we need to kind of help People understand that they're a. Don't think of them as a currency or don't think of them as a bet. They're just a settlement instrument. They're just the way that the money ends up moving. And I think secondly, people, I think, and I hear this in the industry as well as kind of, you know, with kind of people on the street, is that they think that stable coins replace the existing system and they don't, they're, they're going to be additive. They're not going to, you know, be a replacement. The future isn't stable coins versus cards or versus banks. It's stablecoins as another funding rail underneath the same cards and wallets that people are already using today. So it's not, you know, it's, it's going to be this additive thing. It's not going to be the revolution that throws everything out. Yeah, absolutely. That is so important to double click on because the reality is it's adding additional options and creating optionality for customers to service the use cases, which have traditionally been very difficult and like you said, slow and expensive. Right. So that's what customers should really take away from it. Stefan, something to add? Yeah. I think here in Europe it's maybe hard to understand how stablecoins can work because we have the luxury of SEPA and SEPA instance. If you want to send money it's quite instant most of the time. But if you look to exotic corridors, it's very hard on the currency volatility and also they are unbanked or underbanked. So and I think this is where the power is and this is where we are referring to cross border and remittance use cases. This is one of the use cases that it makes sense that I'm capable of sending money to whatever country, to Mexico, the Philippines and other people there, they get the money and they keep the value that I was sending to them. So I think this is the beautiful part of the technology that enables underbanked and unbanked people to have access now to the global finance financial system. And I used to think the same as that until. Same as you until last week when in the UK we're used to having faster payments. So you make a payment, it appears instantly. And I had to send an amount of money to Sweden and because it was over a certain amount, suddenly it took three days. And like for me that was a very alien kind of experience. And you suddenly think, okay, we've got two countries that are, you know, normally within the same continent. Actually a stable Coin kind of rails underneath would have made that instant. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. We see the same in use cases like if you want to send money, suddenly it's slow down and it's maybe also the amount or, or the, the risk appetite of the bank. And if you send money there are different banks in between. So this is where you don't know how, where you don't have any control over. And with stablecoins it's quite straightforward from fiat to stablecoin, you send it, it's public on the ledger and it's going back to the fiat and the destination. So yeah, I actually do agree on that. So it's a global solution to a worldwide problem. And I think what's really important what you said Stefan, is domestically we have solutions. It's when you want to go cross border right with a cheaper route, but also fast. Everybody wants money instantly so it does solve those problems. I want to look now at why infrastructure still matters in this case. A lot of payments innovations right now looks customer facing but underneath it all, the infrastructure layer still determines whether something can still actually grow. Tim, what becomes harder behind the scenes as payments ecosystems become more connected and real time? Yeah, I think quite a lot changes. I think when everything was batch settled, you had time to do things, so you had time to reconcile overnight. You have time to catch errors, you have time to reverse things. Real time removes all that buffer. So you know, suddenly a payment that's settling in seconds is a fraud decision you have to make in milliseconds and there's no takebacks. So you know, I think, and then you've got state across systems, everything's talking to each other. Live wallets, cards, stablecoin ledgers, you know, everything has to be in real time sync with each other. Your single source of truth becomes harder to maintain because you, you have to, you know, make sure that is 100% accurate. If those systems disagree for even a moment, you get a reconciliation break or worse, you get money in two places at once. You know, so there's, there's a lot of challenges and as, as your failure handling gets an exponentially harder. One component going down can't be allowed to take down the payment. So you know, everything becomes kind of more critical. You, you've got a design for partial failure. But yeah, you, you really, everything has to kind of be apple end to end because you have no time to, you know, let's put it in a card way. If you capture the authorization, you can generally make sure that the cardholder has the transaction approved and then you can settle what hasn't happened in the back end. You can sort out in the next minutes or hours. With a stablecoin transaction, you don't have the option to do that because unless that money is received at the other end, that transaction is not going to process. So it's those guardrails around this real time process and that becomes key. Yeah, yeah. 100% brilliant. Stefan, what have been the biggest operational or infrastructure challenges in bringing together wallets, cards and stablecoin settlements? Yeah, we of course come from the stablecoin side of the industry, but I can think about three things that look that are harder than they look and it's about finality, it's about multi entity compliance and it's about real time effects. So let me explain about finality. The scheme expects that we settle within a specific frame. So when we integrate your stack into or settlement layer, when someone is stopping his card at the terminal, we have around four or five seconds to do the full settlement. We do settlement on chain. So we need to deduct the stablecoin from the wallet, bring it to a Treasury wallet and then confirm it back via you to the scheme that the settlement can have. So having the right chain, a fast chain, one you can rely on without network congestions, is quite important. And it's hard, it seems very simple, but people don't understand like if you swap a card, what's happening all behind the scenes. And honestly, before I tapped into the payment world and the card world, I wasn't aware of all the complexity behind the scenes. The second one is multi entity. Like I already explained this morning in my presentation, we have a company in Belgium, Poland, Latvia, Canada and opening El Salvador. Every country has its own regime, so regulatory regime. They all have the way you need to report, they all have the way you need to do aml. So it's a lot of work and we really want to help the customer here that they can rely on our rails and it's a compliant system that is giving Rails to fintechs and companies that just can depend on what we offer them. But it's hard, hard for the compliance team, hard for the tech team. And also we need to be regulated with everything we do. Right. And the last one is a real time effect. So I was already saying we have 4000 milliseconds to do the settlement, but we also need to do the conversion, we need to do everything on chain. And yeah, this is quite hard. And you as being the cto, you know exactly how hard it is. And this is like more technical, but yeah, real time effects within the entire flow is even harder. And yeah, I see more 2am call outs. Yes. But you know, from a processing side, right, we're sending off the transaction to venue. We're waiting that 4,000 milliseconds, 4 seconds. But it's amazing to see how many things you're doing just to complete that transaction with us so that we can complete it with the schemes you think, you know, for a card, we're only doing the first 30% of that whole thing. And now we're actually saying we need to do the complete cycle, including the settlement, within the same time frame. Yeah. And we need to select the chains that support us. And this is why now we have Base. They have a lot of liquidity, they are very quick and have a good finality. But we are of course also looking into other chains like Tempo and Ark. Why? Because they also have features now based on payments. It's about privacy, it's about settlement, it's about payouts and exotic corridors. So it's a dance that we need to do as a settlement layer, an orchestration layer to connect the dots and also bring in the technical component. But again, I do agree people shouldn't care about the technicality behind the scenes, we should manage it. And yeah, this is what the pavementologies and the venues of this world do. Absolutely. Is seamless payments. One thing both of you touched on is that trust and compliance are becoming incredibly important as this market matures. Stefan, how much has regulation changed the conversation around stablecoins over the last couple of years? Yeah, we slightly touched about Genius X, the Clarity act and mica, but two years ago everybody was asking, hey, stablecoin, is this something legal? Can we do something with this? Is this just for trading? Right. And today they ask, what license do I need? Where can I get one? How fast can I get a license? So it entirely shift. Genius act definitely helped here because suddenly institutions got like trust, like, okay, this is something decent, this is a technology and there are some framework around in the world that we can rely on. And about Mica, like I explained this morning, only 140 companies have a MICA license. Today there are thousand companies out there that are not authorized. And by July 2026, if you're not authorized, you cannot do any operations anymore. So this is an enormous gap. At the other side, MICA is giving a framework for trust and for companies to really start understanding this is something decent. It's amazing that it's only 140 and there's less than a month to go. So what do you think is going to happen come the end of July? Yeah. So we are a bit in the situation that we have or Caspian Poland. So we chose Poland because it was quite hard back in the days to work with the Belgium regulator. But now Poland decided not to open any MICA application. So we were forced into going to another European country. So we are now working with the regulator and lawyers for Latvia and I'm really wondering what's going to happen? Are they going to really close the door for thousand companies? I think 60% of all WASP in Europe are located in Poland. So are they going to close the door or are they going to do another grandfathering period? But how is Europe will respond on that? Because a lot of other countries already stopped the transition period. Seven, eight countries. It's done there. So what's going to happen? I don't know. I only pushed the compliance team and the lawyers with us that they need to do their work and have a chat with the regulators and ensure that people and companies with good intents like us can still operate until we wait for the approval. Because there's a lot of companies waiting. I can imagine MICA regulation. Yeah. The regulator has so much work to do. So they are again late to the show, I guess. Yeah. I think we've got this form on this as well. So like when open banking came in, you know, everybody had deadlines that they had to have their AISP and PISP type infrastructure up and running and very, very, very few banks across Europe met those deadlines. And we got into a similar situation and the intent still becomes the intent, but actually just the timelines get delayed and I think the same will happen here because it's not for want of trying and everyone agrees with the idea. It's just a, it's taking longer to implement and get approved than anyone thought. Yeah. And has it's not only the administration work, also as a company, the monitoring you need to do the ML, the kyt. So people can't imagine what extra. And I think it's a good thing. But what extra things you need to manage as a company has nothing to do anymore with just move a stablecoin from wallet A to wallet B. No, no, it's a full fund flow, it's a full financial product. And I do agree why there's a regulator looking behind to see what's happening. But it's quite some work, right? Absolutely. Well, I guess we'll see in a month's time. We'll have to come back and pick up the conversation. Stefan, another line from your presentation that really stood out was the card is the access point, the wallet is the moat. Can you unpack what you mean by that in practical terms? Yeah. So what I mean is that the cart is not a product, the cart is the access point. So in the past, when you hold stablecoins, you had to go to an exchange, you had to convert your crypto into fiat, send it over to a banking partner and then spend with your cart, you can actually spend the money that is in your bank account. And the exchange, they captured all the margin. Today, there's a closed loop new business model and it happened. So the conversion is happening real time, so. And whoever is owning the wallet will also capture the margin. And I think this is quite interesting to understand. It's not only about doing settlement in stablecoin, which is very good, but as a partner or a platform or whatever type of company you are where stablecoins are involved. You should also be the owner of the wallet because this is where the conversion is happening and this is where the new business, this is where the business will make money. So I think this is a very interesting angle to look towards. Yeah, absolutely. Tim, how do you see the role of cards evolving over the next few years? I like Stefan's framing the card as the access point. I describe it as the card becoming the credential rather than the product. For decades, the card has been the thing, but it's been tied to one account, one currency, one issuer. And now what we're starting to see is an unbundling of all of that. So the card becomes the authentication and the authorization token, but it sits on top of whatever's funding it. And that could be a bank account, it could be a stablecoin wallet, a credit line, or all of those at once. And you have intelligent routing that kind of sits behind it, that chooses the cheapest, the fastest source per transaction. And the form factor barely matters anymore, as we know anyway, because it's increasingly tokenized into a phone or into a wearable. So, you know, for me, the card isn't dying. That prediction has been wrong for kind of 20 plus years. It's becoming the universal kind of front end to a much more complex and flexible backend. And that backend exactly is where the sort of processing layer earns its keep. Yeah, and I also think the card and the tokenization of the card with Apple Wallet and Google Play enables mass adoption. Because if I always have to wear my plastic card with me, I actually don't have any physical card. With me it's sometimes a risk. But they're all stored in my wallet or in my phone. So I really agree that the access point is also the way to authenticate and behind the scenes. Yeah, a lot needs to happen there. So. But this is what you all provide. So I mean the one thing you get if you have a card is acceptance. Yes. You know that you can take whatever that card is tied into. You can go and shop pretty much anywhere in the world. So it's ubiquitous. It's basically just the access point. After that anything can happen in the background and customers can choose what account, what wallet. You know, even if you look at mobile wallets. Right. It really just is that initial access. But once you, once you've passed that barrier, or in, in our case, you know, the easiest entry point to a customer, once you pass that, the world is open to customers both domestically and globally. Yes. It's incredible. We've talked about the infrastructure, stablecoins, regulations, wallets and the future of payments. So now let's finish on a simple one. Five years from now, what do you think will feel completely normal in payments that still feels futuristic today. Stefan, starting with you, it's a simple one for me I guess it's paying with stablecoins without knowing that you're paying with stablecoins. So you now already have a wallet holding usdc. I see banks coming with their own wallet. So as a user you will have a fiat balance and a wallet balance or maybe they only going to show you the fiat balance. And behind the scenes it's just stablecoins because it's spec'd one on one. You can show UC or euro or USDC and USD. So I think this is the moment now we are living in and we are happy. I'm happy to be in this moment here to see the shift from something technology wise towards something that will be embedded and embraced by banks and by others. So I think this is the way forward and honestly people don't care about if it's stablecoin or not. The infrastructure will route the transaction the most optimal and the most, the most cost efficient way. And I think this is in this. In five years there will be another hype. But I'm 100% sure that or 99.9% sure that the technology is behind the scenes where it should be. Absolutely. Customers shouldn't have to worry about is it a stablecoin or not. I love that embedded stablecoin usage. Tim, over to you, I agree a lot with Stefan, I think is that money moves instantly anywhere in the world, any time of the, you know, any time of day and any day of the week and nobody will find it remarkable. Yeah. So, you know, today, you know, it'll arrive in three business days is something that people accept. But in five years, I think that will sound like, you know, analog dial up Internet. People, you know, will see that, like, how did we ever survive when that happened? And as you say, I think that the Rails will just become invisible. You'll pay somebody in another country, whether it traveled as a car transaction, a bank transfer, a stablecoin payment. It'll be a decision made by software. It won't be a decision that's made by the, by the end user. They'll never see it, they'll never think about it. The plumbing that we'll do will get more sophisticated precisely. So the experience gets boring. And I think that's the destination. You know, boring is the destination. I love that. Boring is the destination. Quote of the day and Stablecoin sandwich, definitely. Unfortunately, that's all for today. A huge thank you, Stefan and Tim, for joining us on the Issue Academy. And if there's one takeaway from today's conversation, it's that the future of payments may not always be about choosing traditional finance and digital assets, but how all of these systems increasingly work together behind the scenes. Catch you next time on the Issuo Academy. That wraps up today's episode of the Issua Academy Paymentology's podcast to innovate, scale and provide impact. I hope you're leaving with fresh insights and actionable strategies to help you revolutionize your card programs and drive true impact in the world. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please leave a review to help us reach more pioneers like you. Also, be sure to subscribe and follow us for more inspiring episodes and behind the scenes content from Pavementology. Until next time. Next time, I'm Maru and Aidu. Keep innovating, keep scaling and keep striving to make an impact.