Ads in ChatGPT Are Coming. What B2B Marketers Should Do Right Now | Keith Delany, CEO Primer

1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,160 SPEAKER_01: CPMs over the last 18 months have gone from like$20 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,720 on average to as high as like 800 we've seen with some of our 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,400 customers, which is insane. 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,519 SPEAKER_00: Keith Putnam Delaney, co-founder and CEO of 5 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:14,080 Primer. 6 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,879 SPEAKER_01: I really want a dev tool basically built on an 7 00:00:16,879 --> 00:00:20,160 agentic platform to make producing integrations way 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:20,559 faster. 9 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,280 Nobody creates an account on Reddit or Meta with a work 10 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,320 email, you get like a 2%, 10% hatch rate. 11 00:00:26,399 --> 00:00:31,679 We get incredibly high, like 80% on Meta, 50% on Google, like 70% 12 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,920 on Reddit match rates for our customers. 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,320 And then that kind of unlocks a lot of interesting 14 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:36,880 possibilities. 15 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:39,200 SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of talk about ads in Elements. 16 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,359 What is your perspective on all this does? 17 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,039 SPEAKER_01: OpenAI just launched theirs from my perspective. 18 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,159 I'm excited for it. 19 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,880 SPEAKER_00: What other kind of tactical tips would you give 20 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,520 somebody if they were thinking about running or they are 21 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,280 running paid advertising? 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,239 Keith, welcome to GTM Now. 23 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:15,920 SPEAKER_01: Hey Sophie, thanks for having me. 24 00:01:16,239 --> 00:01:17,439 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great to have you here. 25 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:20,640 We're gonna cover everything paid, and there's a lot to 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,879 cover, but let's start off with the high-level structural 27 00:01:24,879 --> 00:01:28,319 changes because we always say, you know, with AI, there's a lot 28 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,760 changing in terms of from the investment lens, where value 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:32,239 accrues. 30 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,640 With product being easier to build, that value shifts over to 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,200 distribution. 32 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:41,280 We're seeing the same kind of structural changes happen to 33 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:42,640 specific areas. 34 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:44,480 What's happening with paid? 35 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,519 SPEAKER_01: I think the the really interesting thing about 36 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:52,319 paid is in the wake of all these incredible changes in AI, is 37 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:56,719 that there's actually a limited number of channels to capture 38 00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:58,000 people's attention, right? 39 00:01:58,239 --> 00:02:00,959 AI has not produced a new social network. 40 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,280 It hasn't produced something that people are sort of 41 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,879 scrolling through for content. 42 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,680 What AI has instead done is it's sort of glutted the existing 43 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,439 channels with more content. 44 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Um, so you have essentially a supply and demand problem. 45 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:22,159 You have oodles and oodles of demand and limited supply. 46 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:28,800 And that's causing a crazy increase in costs on a lot of 47 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:30,800 digital advertising channels. 48 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:37,520 Um and yeah, I I think it's one of the unsung stories of the AI 49 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,280 sort of revolution we're going through. 50 00:02:40,159 --> 00:02:42,719 SPEAKER_00: And with these rising costs, how should people 51 00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:45,439 be thinking about their acquisition motions? 52 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:46,000 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 53 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:49,919 Well, what's really interesting, you know, if you again think 54 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,439 about AI and go to market more broadly, it's also created a 55 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:54,960 glut on outbound. 56 00:02:55,039 --> 00:02:57,759 Uh, and everybody's talking about the decrease in 57 00:02:57,759 --> 00:02:59,599 effectiveness on outbound these days. 58 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:02,159 Um, so it's sort of like, all right, what do you turn to? 59 00:03:02,319 --> 00:03:06,800 Um, I think a lot of people are looking at community and kind of 60 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,639 event field of field marketing and events again, which is cool. 61 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,879 And then on paid, I think a lot of people are left kind of 62 00:03:14,879 --> 00:03:19,120 scratching their heads a bit, um, uh, which is too bad because 63 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,360 there definitely are opportunities. 64 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:27,120 Um, you know, Reddit is seeing a surge in B2B demand lately. 65 00:03:27,199 --> 00:03:31,360 Uh, we are seeing more and more uh brands interested in trying 66 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:32,960 to get Meta to work for them. 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,439 Um, some very brave B2B brands are exploring TikTok. 68 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:39,360 So there's definitely opportunity there. 69 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:44,080 It's just that LinkedIn and search have diminishing returns 70 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,360 at the moment, it seems like for most of the data that we look 71 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:47,520 at. 72 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:47,919 Yeah. 73 00:03:48,159 --> 00:03:48,800 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 74 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,159 You nailed on the head where a lot of people are scratching 75 00:03:52,159 --> 00:03:54,400 their heads and you named a few channels there. 76 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:58,240 Can we actually go through each of the channels and kind of 77 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,960 break down what has changed now with AI and what people should 78 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:02,319 be thinking about with each channel? 79 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:03,919 Like what's effective, what's not. 80 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:04,240 Yeah. 81 00:04:04,479 --> 00:04:05,919 Where should people be spending their dollars? 82 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:06,719 SPEAKER_01: Totally. 83 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:10,080 Um, so with AI, let's let's talk search because it's always kind 84 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,080 of like the bread and butter default channel that marketers 85 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:15,840 go to because it's high intent, right? 86 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,319 Somebody's searching for something, they want that thing. 87 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,720 Um, the AI overview is sort of killing search, um, slowly but 88 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,639 surely, especially unbranded search. 89 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,560 Um, AI answers are popping up the majority of time uh in 90 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,040 something like Google and more and more in Bing, too. 91 00:04:31,199 --> 00:04:33,040 Um, so what are people doing? 92 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,079 What's still working? 93 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,439 They're investing the money in competitor keywords, right? 94 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,759 So they're bidding on anybody and everybody that that's a 95 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:43,920 brand name that might be related to them. 96 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:44,959 That's working. 97 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,680 It's still actually proven to be quite effective. 98 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,839 Um, it may continue to work for a while, but it also will suffer 99 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,040 from diminishing returns as everybody else starts doing it. 100 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:58,399 SPEAKER_00: I have to say, yeah, I can't tell you every time I 101 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:01,920 search for a brand, I'm scrolling down six different ads 102 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,079 before I actually get to the organity of that brand. 103 00:05:04,399 --> 00:05:05,199 SPEAKER_01: And it's really interesting. 104 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,319 Google's like, no, we're not gonna do like when people are 105 00:05:08,319 --> 00:05:10,959 searching for brands, we're not gonna do AI answers because they 106 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:14,240 need to still make money to fund all those CPU costs. 107 00:05:14,399 --> 00:05:18,560 Uh so that's that's search kind of in a nutshell on LinkedIn. 108 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:19,839 Uh wow. 109 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,879 I mean, LinkedIn is just like CPMs over the last 18 months 110 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,480 have gone from like$20 on average to as high as like 800 111 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,079 we've seen with some of our customers, which is insane. 112 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:37,839 Um, so a lot of people are looking for efficiencies there. 113 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,639 There's still really cool um uh kind of ad formats that LinkedIn 114 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:43,439 is playing with. 115 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,480 Uh Thought Leadership, probably being the one that's getting the 116 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:47,279 most attention right now. 117 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:51,360 Their CTV placements are actually still pretty effective. 118 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:56,480 Um, from a uh and the neat thing about C CTV is you can't skip 119 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,160 it, uh, which is kind of fun. 120 00:05:58,399 --> 00:06:01,920 Um so those are those are the kind of the two default channels 121 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,439 I would say for B2B marketers. 122 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,839 I think one of the things that a lot of uh folks don't realize is 123 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,360 that there is the opportunity and possibility of unlocking 124 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,279 more traditionally B2C channels. 125 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:16,959 Um I think Clay just rolled out their ads product. 126 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:22,560 I think it's a really interesting sort of um signal 127 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:27,920 that uh that they see opportunity in helping users 128 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,639 kind of stitch together, helping their customers stitch together 129 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:34,879 identity between kind of like the LinkedIn level and that, you 130 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:39,120 know, B2C Instagram, you know, me at night sort of doom 131 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:39,439 scrolling. 132 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:39,839 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 133 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:40,240 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 134 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:40,879 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 135 00:06:41,199 --> 00:06:42,399 SPEAKER_00: All humans at the end of the day. 136 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:43,040 SPEAKER_01: Totally. 137 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:43,600 Totally. 138 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:48,319 SPEAKER_00: And human behavior may look different B2B to B B2C, 139 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:50,240 but truly it's just humans. 140 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:50,879 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 141 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:51,439 Yeah. 142 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:53,839 SPEAKER_00: Now I'm asking you all these questions about 143 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,560 channels specific to paid because you are yourself an 144 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:57,439 expert in the area. 145 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,000 For anyone unfamiliar with primer, can you give a little 146 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,279 bit of context to what you're building? 147 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:02,240 SPEAKER_01: Sure. 148 00:07:02,399 --> 00:07:04,959 So um my background wasn't always in paid. 149 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,040 Um I uh I used to be more of a kind of a brand marketer. 150 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,040 Uh, and then I got really intrigued by data and targeting, 151 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,360 because at the end of the day, marketing doesn't really work if 152 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,439 you can't get it in front of the right audience. 153 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,839 Um, and what we've built essentially at primer is uh a 154 00:07:21,839 --> 00:07:23,040 targeting layer. 155 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:27,519 Um, so one of the main problems with kind of trying to tar 156 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:31,680 target people on Meta or Google or TikTok or Reddit is they 157 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,879 don't have those B2B sort of filters built in natively, 158 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:35,360 right? 159 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,279 Um, so most folks try to upload a list of work emails, right? 160 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:39,519 Right. 161 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,879 And because nobody creates an account on Reddit or Meta with a 162 00:07:42,879 --> 00:07:46,639 work email, you get like a 2%, 10% match rate. 163 00:07:46,879 --> 00:07:48,399 Um, we can change that. 164 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:49,040 And we do. 165 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:55,360 We get um incredibly high, like 80% on Meta, uh 50% on Google, 166 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:58,560 like 70% on Reddit match rates for our customers. 167 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,600 Um and then that kind of unlocks a lot of interesting 168 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,199 possibilities, a lot of not only cheaper inventory, but still 169 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:06,720 really effective channels. 170 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:10,000 Um then we're doing some cool things on the measurement front. 171 00:08:10,079 --> 00:08:13,759 Um, but yeah, I think what we're really excited about is nobody 172 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:18,560 really owns the B2B paid acquisition space uh right now. 173 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,319 Um, and we see an opportunity to build something powerful there. 174 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:25,680 SPEAKER_00: Well, and definitely not across D2C channels, like 175 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,319 you mentioned, and being able to actually bring the identity of 176 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:30,720 the B2B person over to those channels. 177 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:32,639 That's a huge gap. 178 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:34,399 Um, a huge gap right now. 179 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:35,279 SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Totally. 180 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,480 Um but people are let like I said, Clay's moving into the 181 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:39,519 space, we're in the space. 182 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:39,840 Yeah. 183 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:46,559 Um I think people see that the economics of these sort of two 184 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,759 default channels aren't really working and they're looking for 185 00:08:49,759 --> 00:08:50,559 new opportunities. 186 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,159 And where the money goes is where the startups will go. 187 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,440 SPEAKER_00: And what what does that actually do for any kind of 188 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:57,840 measurement? 189 00:08:57,919 --> 00:09:00,320 Because I think that's a huge constraint for a lot of people 190 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,120 that are, you know, behind the concept of, okay, we're humans, 191 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:04,720 we spend time on all these different platforms. 192 00:09:04,799 --> 00:09:08,000 We're all scrolling different various things um at night. 193 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:08,559 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 194 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,159 SPEAKER_00: But it's so hard to measure. 195 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:10,480 I know. 196 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,440 It's so hard to measure. 197 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:13,759 And especially because, you know, we might scroll something 198 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:17,120 on Instagram tonight, but a lot of the time a demo, for example, 199 00:09:17,279 --> 00:09:19,120 might be booked on desktop in the daytime. 200 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,279 So that you've kind of got the the channel fragmentation and 201 00:09:23,279 --> 00:09:25,919 expansion, uh, whichever is more suitable there. 202 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,000 And then you've also got, it sounds like the device 203 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,039 fragmentation too. 204 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:29,600 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 205 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:34,000 And the device fragmentation is sort of uh not something I think 206 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,120 marketers give enough credit to. 207 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,919 Um, you know, even on LinkedIn, the majority of your engagement 208 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:44,960 on LinkedIn is on mobile these days, not on desktop. 209 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,519 Um, so LinkedIn is the easiest to attribute because it's still 210 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,399 you still people click go on desktop, they're at work, they 211 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,200 scroll through LinkedIn, they click on the ad, they go all the 212 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,679 way through and they sign up, which is great, ideal. 213 00:09:57,759 --> 00:09:59,360 I wish everybody did that. 214 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,200 Um but they don't. 215 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,159 Um so the challenge, and there is no easy answer. 216 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,320 If somebody had nailed attribution, I mean, attribution 217 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,200 is where so many startups have gone to die. 218 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,399 Um so attribution is tricky, um, but I do think like it's just a 219 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:20,559 process of triangulation ultimately. 220 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:25,279 Um uh my friend Pranav over at Paramark uh is doing some cool 221 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:28,480 things on the incrementality and media mix modeling side of 222 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:28,879 things. 223 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,240 Um, I think that's where a lot of the future lays for the 224 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,759 sophisticated paid teams and for earlier stage marketers. 225 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,799 Um, you really have to kind of not just look at first touch, 226 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:41,759 last touch. 227 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,840 You really have to sort of embrace um causality. 228 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,879 Like you have to do holdout groups, you have to even 229 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:49,679 something simple. 230 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:52,480 Like, hey, we turned up the dial on Meta. 231 00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:56,639 Um, we saw a ton of leads come in in May. 232 00:10:56,799 --> 00:10:58,000 We turned it off in June. 233 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,240 We saw you know uh a significant drop. 234 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,679 That's that there's a strong correlation there. 235 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:08,240 Is you know, let's all right, meta works for us. 236 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:09,039 Let's keep investing. 237 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,519 It doesn't tell you how much to invest, but at least it gives 238 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:12,000 you signal. 239 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:13,519 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, directional data. 240 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,080 Is holdout groups the best way for people to do that? 241 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:16,799 SPEAKER_01: 100%. 242 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:17,360 Yeah. 243 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:20,320 Hold out groups are the statistically proven way to do 244 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:20,799 it, right? 245 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:24,720 Um, you basically have a control population, doesn't see this ad 246 00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:28,399 campaign and exposed population that does. 247 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,279 You compare the conversion rates, all other marketing touch 248 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:34,320 points being equal between the two groups, and you see if 249 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,759 there's a statistical lift. 250 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,720 And like honestly, it's sort of uh going back to the good old 251 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,799 days of like madmen advertising. 252 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:43,440 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 253 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,600 SPEAKER_01: That's what they that's what they do, you know. 254 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:51,360 Yeah, um, Zoom is super famous for their uh they never did any 255 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:52,799 digital advertising, right? 256 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,080 Only out of home and kind of sponsorships, and they would 257 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,919 just compare markets. 258 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:58,799 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right. 259 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,360 SPEAKER_01: And they would look in Google Analytics and just 260 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,080 compare Nashville versus Louisville, you know. 261 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:04,639 SPEAKER_00: 100%. 262 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:05,200 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 263 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,440 SPEAKER_00: And a lot of companies are doing that now and 264 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:09,759 and for out of home, just as it's grown, right? 265 00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:11,279 That is the best way. 266 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,000 And it's funny, we've just calm overcomplicated things with 267 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,759 attribution when in reality it's more the directional side, like 268 00:12:17,759 --> 00:12:18,080 you said. 269 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:18,799 SPEAKER_01: Totally. 270 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:19,279 Yeah. 271 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,559 And and it's just it's hard to build a mod everybody wants a 272 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:23,840 model that's perfect. 273 00:12:23,919 --> 00:12:24,320 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 274 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:25,919 SPEAKER_01: And it just doesn't exist. 275 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,120 SPEAKER_00: Yes, 100%. 276 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,399 Well, you mentioned something that's super important, 277 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,679 statistical significance, even if you're doing holdout groups. 278 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,600 What kind of size of company does this make sense to actually 279 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,720 scale towards to have that kind of end that you are hitting 280 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:41,679 statistical significance? 281 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:42,000 Yeah. 282 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,480 Who is this for if I've been kind of listening to this? 283 00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:45,440 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally. 284 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:49,120 Um, I mean, for the marketer who's trying to, you know, run a 285 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,840 campaign to 500 companies or people, it's not going to be for 286 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:54,000 you. 287 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,440 Um, but uh you can do it with relatively small sample sizes 288 00:12:59,440 --> 00:12:59,840 these days. 289 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,240 Like even uh, you know, a 5,000 person audience given enough 290 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,720 time, um, you can get to StatsIg. 291 00:13:06,879 --> 00:13:07,200 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 292 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,159 That's yeah, pretty doable for a lot of companies. 293 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:10,960 SPEAKER_01: Totally. 294 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:14,320 SPEAKER_00: And what about um channel? 295 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,159 Let's say you said the starting place is 5,000 people. 296 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:20,320 What about a channel starting place? 297 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:24,080 If you're you know advising any kind of companies and marketers 298 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,720 building, is there a channel that they should be starting 299 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,440 with, or is that perhaps nuance to each company? 300 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,240 SPEAKER_01: Um I still think the easiest place to test is 301 00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:35,039 LinkedIn. 302 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:35,440 Right. 303 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,480 Yeah, just because they've got the filters built into their 304 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:39,039 product, right? 305 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,519 You can define your ideal customers right there and and 306 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:44,799 try to go after them. 307 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,440 Um so it's it's definitely the easiest place to test. 308 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,919 One of the things that I'm I'm really hoping that we'll we'll 309 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:57,919 we'll get into as a as a company in the next year or so is the 310 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,679 the barrier to entry to testing advertising is just very high, 311 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:02,080 right? 312 00:14:02,159 --> 00:14:05,519 Because the the cost of experimentation is really high. 313 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:05,919 Yeah. 314 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,360 Um that's one of the things I think about a lot is if I was a 315 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,519 a you know kind of solo founder or seed stage startup, how could 316 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:19,120 I how could I be comfortable making this investment um uh and 317 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,799 expecting that it won't just be, yeah, it won't just be lighting 318 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:26,000 $20,000 on fire, which to me might be a lot of money at that, 319 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:26,639 at that stage. 320 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:27,519 For sure. 321 00:14:27,759 --> 00:14:31,759 Um it's something that I think we we're gonna have some cool 322 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:33,600 features around at some point. 323 00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:34,960 SPEAKER_00: Ooh, very cool. 324 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:37,120 We'll have to revisit this when it comes out. 325 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:38,159 Super exciting. 326 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,559 And but you're right, it is a hard barrier, kind of higher 327 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:41,360 barrier to entry. 328 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,080 And totally maybe just as we talked about at the beginning, 329 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,120 certain areas become a little bit more commoditized, if you 330 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:47,360 will. 331 00:14:47,679 --> 00:14:51,600 That is one area that kind of retains that uh barrier to 332 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,200 entry, is paid. 333 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:53,679 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 334 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,480 SPEAKER_00: So when we think about it at the macro level, you 335 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,960 know, where are those areas and gaps and opportunities, and you 336 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,120 call that a few different channels, including community, 337 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:02,159 including paid. 338 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,000 Like where does paid sit in terms of kind of where people 339 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:06,480 are going? 340 00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:07,679 Are you seeing an uptick? 341 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:09,360 Are you seeing people pull spend out? 342 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,320 SPEAKER_01: No, I think I think we're seeing people double down 343 00:15:12,559 --> 00:15:16,399 on paid, um, just be in part because outbound is, I mean, 344 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,639 paid is the is the top channel for for most companies. 345 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:26,159 Um it takes a lot of from and I should say for most um marketing 346 00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:29,279 teams and and kind of you know go-to-market teams. 347 00:15:29,519 --> 00:15:33,039 You know, products, obviously you have you, I mean, there's 348 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,840 there's product growth loops that are really powerful. 349 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,000 Um, but uh I think you know, paid is basically outside of 350 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,879 product growth loops, the the biggest area of investment. 351 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:46,799 Um and as outbound really decreases in effectiveness, um, 352 00:15:47,039 --> 00:15:50,799 people are turning money into pouring more money into paid 353 00:15:51,039 --> 00:15:54,960 because they can still make the their ROI pencil, even though it 354 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,480 is getting more expensive. 355 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,799 Um yeah, it's and what I think as a result though of that 356 00:16:00,799 --> 00:16:04,080 increase in cost is they're turning to the channels where 357 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,279 it's cheaper to advertise and where they can still get that 358 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:08,000 ROI. 359 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,320 SPEAKER_00: Um that's which are the Reddits, like you said. 360 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:13,039 SPEAKER_01: The Reddits, the meta, you know, the Instagrams. 361 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,919 So people the places where people like where they're at and 362 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:19,519 then and it's sort of kind of an obvious thing, but it's like 363 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,600 people that's where people are spending their time. 364 00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:23,919 You should be where they are uh to begin with. 365 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,360 Even if um even if LinkedIn wasn't so expensive, you should 366 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,000 probably still be on Instagram because that's where your 367 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,279 audience hangs out. 368 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:32,320 Yeah. 369 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:33,200 SPEAKER_00: Definitely. 370 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:34,480 No, it it makes sense. 371 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,159 Are you seeing a certain kind of split between channels that 372 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:40,720 people diversify across, or is that quite variable from 373 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:41,120 company? 374 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,240 Just as you know, marketers are thinking about their channel 375 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,039 diversification. 376 00:16:45,279 --> 00:16:48,879 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um it's somewhat persona dependent. 377 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:49,200 Yeah. 378 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,559 Um, so Reddit, right, isn't for everyone. 379 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:56,399 Um, you know, we've seen match rates on Reddit as high as 70%, 380 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,000 80% for IT and engineers, and then four percent for legal or 381 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:02,799 procurement, right? 382 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,160 Um, because it's a smaller community uh and and not 383 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,279 everybody's on there. 384 00:17:07,519 --> 00:17:10,559 Um I think the same go like it's actually really interesting to 385 00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:13,279 think about the channels where people aren't on LinkedIn, you 386 00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:13,359 know. 387 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:14,400 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%. 388 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,079 SPEAKER_01: Like doctors, not on LinkedIn, educate you know, 389 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,319 people in education, not on LinkedIn. 390 00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:24,079 Um so those are some of the things that I think are are 391 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:26,960 actually like kind of quite interesting as it really varies 392 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,920 by persona. 393 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:34,240 Um, but the majority, for better or for worse, and I think it's 394 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,000 for worse, um, the the place where we see people continuing 395 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,039 to dial up investment is on search. 396 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,000 And I just think it's kind of foolish. 397 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,400 Like, I I really do. 398 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,200 I don't think I they they're like, oh, well, we're paying 399 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,519 $8,000 for it, you know, for a good for an opportunity, you 400 00:17:55,519 --> 00:17:55,680 know. 401 00:17:55,839 --> 00:17:58,400 And it's like we can still afford that, but it's like sh 402 00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:01,200 but is that the right question to be asking yourself? 403 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,480 Like, is there not something a much better, more cheaper, 404 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,319 higher volume way to get that? 405 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:06,799 Yeah. 406 00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:07,440 Mm-hmm. 407 00:18:08,559 --> 00:18:10,240 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, why why are people spending more and 408 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,319 doubling down then if it's only getting more expensive? 409 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,720 SPEAKER_01: Um, oof, that's a great question. 410 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,400 Uh fear, I think. 411 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:17,680 I'm trying something new. 412 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:20,720 The the cost of falling on your face, you know. 413 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:21,039 Yeah. 414 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,640 Um, you know, sp like again, that lighting money on fire. 415 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:25,839 It's hard to know. 416 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,079 Paid typically takes a fair amount of experimentation to get 417 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:30,400 right. 418 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,839 Um I'll just I'll just say where I uh I I sort of teased it 419 00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:39,519 earlier, but I'm just saying like what I think is hugely 420 00:18:39,519 --> 00:18:43,039 missing in uh in paid is benchmark data. 421 00:18:43,279 --> 00:18:43,599 Right. 422 00:18:43,759 --> 00:18:49,200 It's like understand like no why it it boggles my mind that there 423 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,559 isn't uh a company out there that doesn't aggregate and 424 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,640 anonymize segment by persona and then say, okay, here's what's 425 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,680 working if you're going after cybersecurity companies. 426 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:02,640 Here's what, or you know, uh here's what's working if you're 427 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,000 going after HR. 428 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,319 Um, and sort of helping like provide that data to help steer. 429 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,119 Now, does it lead to like a reversion to the mean? 430 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:14,480 Yes, but yeah, like and then do will the best marketers always 431 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,640 kind of still take a first principles approach? 432 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,960 But I think it de-risks a lot of the the investment if you can 433 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:26,400 learn from your peers in a way that's uh that's uh not 434 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,799 compromising, I guess is the right word. 435 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:29,359 Yeah. 436 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:32,160 SPEAKER_00: I mean, it would be hugely beneficial, and there's 437 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,359 benchmarks for so many things. 438 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,039 So what's the barrier to creating paid benchmarks? 439 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,960 I can immediately what pops in my head is the fragmentation 440 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,279 we've been talking about and people not actually having the 441 00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:46,960 data around what is effective because of the B2B event. 442 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:51,039 SPEAKER_01: If we keep growing, we'll have the we're starting to 443 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:51,839 produce the data. 444 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:52,160 Yeah. 445 00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:56,400 Yeah, we're we're working on kind of our first set of those. 446 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,119 Um we're just kicking off some fun data science around that. 447 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,720 We've finally kind of hit the scale around certain personas uh 448 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,720 where we can we can produce that. 449 00:20:04,799 --> 00:20:06,960 Um, and we want to build that into the product. 450 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:11,039 And that is what I think helps that maybe the marketer who's 451 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:14,640 spending a million dollars a month on Google actually decide 452 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,319 to put some of that money into Meta. 453 00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:20,079 Maybe that founder who's trying out marketing for the first time 454 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,240 to like, you know, press the on button. 455 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:22,880 SPEAKER_00: I guess. 456 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:23,119 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 457 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:24,160 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely. 458 00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:24,880 I love it. 459 00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:28,319 Well, we're excited to see that um and then for companies that 460 00:20:28,319 --> 00:20:31,680 you're working with as you're growing and scaling, what we 461 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,279 talked about generally what size of company or stage of company 462 00:20:35,279 --> 00:20:36,880 makes sense to do paid advertising. 463 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:40,960 What stage of company does it make sense for uh them to look 464 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:41,519 at primer? 465 00:20:42,319 --> 00:20:46,480 SPEAKER_01: Typically um we currently, right? 466 00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:47,759 I think it's gonna change. 467 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,559 Um but currently we serve companies with you know that are 468 00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:54,720 already investing about$10,000 a month on average in in ad spend. 469 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,839 Um it's sort of that's sort of the litmus test we found for 470 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,640 like, all right, we've got emotion, it's working, how do we 471 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:03,359 and it's enough where it's we can make it more efficient, 472 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:04,160 basically. 473 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:09,039 Um I think at that point, what we've found is anybody spending 474 00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:12,720 under that is gonna turn it off, turn it back on, turn it off, 475 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:13,599 turn it back on. 476 00:21:13,759 --> 00:21:16,319 And as a software business, we don't like that. 477 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,160 SPEAKER_00: So certainly not ideal. 478 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:18,640 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 479 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,519 Uh uh, so that's kind of what yeah, that's a short answer to 480 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:23,839 your question. 481 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:24,000 Yeah. 482 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:24,880 Or maybe a long answer. 483 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,519 SPEAKER_00: People that have always on paid systems at that 484 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:27,759 scale. 485 00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:28,319 SPEAKER_01: Exactly. 486 00:21:28,559 --> 00:21:28,720 SPEAKER_00: Cool. 487 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,680 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, typically around 150 to 100 employees as 488 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,799 well is kind of what we find. 489 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:33,279 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 490 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,799 That's a really helpful benchmark. 491 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:35,039 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 492 00:21:35,279 --> 00:21:38,000 SPEAKER_00: And Keith, you know, a lot of people think about paid 493 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,200 as just direct pipeline generation, but there's so many 494 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,400 other outcomes that come from anything that gives you data 495 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,359 from the customer. 496 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:45,839 Yeah. 497 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,200 How do you think about the actual utility of paid? 498 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:51,839 Like, how should people be thinking about their programs 499 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:54,720 and what quantitative and qualitative information that 500 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:55,359 they're gathering? 501 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:55,920 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 502 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,759 I think one of the coolest things about paid. 503 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,680 Is that if you think about it, right, it's it's the thing 504 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,519 that's furthest up your funnel, right? 505 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,480 Impressions are the thing that's furthest up your funnel. 506 00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:11,119 So if you're if you feel confident you're reaching your 507 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,359 ideal customers, you can get a lot of eyeballs on a lot of 508 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,359 messages in a really short time frame. 509 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,599 Um, so it's incredibly powerful, not just obviously like message 510 00:22:21,599 --> 00:22:25,519 testing, not just to drive those, you know, form submits 511 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,720 and leads, um, but message testing that can help inform 512 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,319 your strategy more generally, like what your website should 513 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,119 should say. 514 00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:38,319 Um you can really iterate with messaging at a much faster pace 515 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:39,519 than you can anywhere else. 516 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,200 And it and that is one of the huge benefits that obviously AI 517 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,000 unlocks as well. 518 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,039 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it sounds like the the actual learning loop 519 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:48,240 itself from it. 520 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:48,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 521 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:49,359 SPEAKER_00: Brilliant. 522 00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:49,839 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 523 00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:52,880 SPEAKER_00: And what other kind of tactical tips would you give 524 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,920 somebody if they were thinking about running or they are 525 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,440 running paid advertising and they're trying to kind of get 526 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:00,799 more juice from the squeeze? 527 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,519 Like what are the kind of the tried and true tips that you 528 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:03,680 have? 529 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,119 SPEAKER_01: Ooh, tips. 530 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,920 Um It's a great question. 531 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,160 Like I'm trying to think, ah, God, I could go in so many 532 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:12,799 different directions. 533 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,000 SPEAKER_00: We can go in all of them. 534 00:23:16,559 --> 00:23:18,160 SPEAKER_01: Um Well, okay. 535 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:21,440 I'll I'll talk about some like some things that I believe to be 536 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:21,680 true. 537 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:28,559 Um more like philosophically, um you should the hardest thing for 538 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:30,640 a competitor to copy is your targeting. 539 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:32,240 They can copy everything else. 540 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,319 They can figure out what channels you're on, they can 541 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:36,799 figure out your creative, they can figure out your messaging. 542 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,079 Um, all of that is is is easy for them to look up and and 543 00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:42,480 imitate. 544 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:44,319 They can't figure out your targeting. 545 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,880 Um so that can be a unique competitive advantage. 546 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,279 Brandon Cammy, the former head of growth at Rippling, uh, he 547 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,119 and I used to talk about that all the time. 548 00:23:53,359 --> 00:24:00,960 Um uh the second thing is um go where your competitors aren't, I 549 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:01,119 think. 550 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,119 Channel wise, channel-wise. 551 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:09,200 Um I always think that's that's uh really helpful is um uh, you 552 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,440 know, or go where the the market generally is. 553 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:13,599 It's sort of take like that first principles approach. 554 00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:16,559 I I think it's like fun when, you know, out of home, I feel 555 00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:17,920 like is having a resurgence. 556 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:18,319 Yeah. 557 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,640 Um, because like it was like I I think, I mean, these these 558 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,000 channels or these tactics are cyclical, right? 559 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,279 Everybody rushes in to do field marketing, that's gonna decrease 560 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:30,000 in effectiveness. 561 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:32,079 So what's the thing they're not doing right now? 562 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,640 Um the other, the other tip I have is um, or kind of more 563 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,079 philosophically, I guess it'll be my third point, is I think 564 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:47,039 these days, um buying credibility is a huge, has to be 565 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,599 a huge piece of your marketing strategy. 566 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,440 Um what I mean by that is you look look at what's happened in 567 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:58,000 uh B2C marketing, uh, influencer is uh it and it's already 568 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,920 happening in B2B, but I really do think that that we're only at 569 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,400 the beginning of what that really looks like. 570 00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:09,920 Um, and one of the fastest ways you can grow is buying that 571 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,480 credibility from people who already have the audience, as 572 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,480 opposed to trying to create it yourself. 573 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,799 And I think also be because of some trends in B2C, people don't 574 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,000 seem to really want to hear from brands very much these days. 575 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,880 They want to hear from trusted people, yeah, that they feel 576 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:27,759 connection to. 577 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,079 unknown: Yeah. 578 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,839 SPEAKER_00: What influence does that last point have? 579 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,680 And those are all fantastic points. 580 00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:35,200 Yeah, what influence does that last point have on companies' 581 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,960 approaches to more programmatized platform paid 582 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:39,440 spend? 583 00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:41,599 Like you're talking about meta, we're talking about LinkedIn. 584 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:42,160 Yeah, totally. 585 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,559 When we talk about the creator space, which you're right, I 586 00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:46,799 think is like the early days of B2B. 587 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:49,759 Yeah, what does that actually do to somebody sitting in the seat 588 00:25:49,839 --> 00:25:51,359 being like, where do I allocate my money? 589 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,079 SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's vehicles for accelerating that 590 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:56,880 with paid. 591 00:25:57,039 --> 00:25:58,799 Like those those tools exist. 592 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,839 Um, for example, on Meta, this has happened for a long time, 593 00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:07,440 where if you get a an influencer can share their uh basically 594 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:10,240 give you access to their brand, and then you can promote their 595 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:10,640 content. 596 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:13,200 You can basically boost their their content. 597 00:26:13,599 --> 00:26:14,319 Which you can do on LinkedIn. 598 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,759 And you can do that on LinkedIn, and then LinkedIn came out with 599 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:20,640 that uh six to 12 months ago. 600 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:21,039 Yeah. 601 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,880 Um, and I don't I honestly don't know, don't see many brands 602 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:25,440 doing that yet. 603 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:28,400 And I that promoted thought leadership, that's not from 604 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,000 someone within your own company, that's from someone outside your 605 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,640 company. 606 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,279 Um, I think that that is probably that's good, that's a 607 00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:39,440 hugely undervalued tactic. 608 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:40,559 Yeah. 609 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:41,519 SPEAKER_00: I like it. 610 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,319 I like it. 611 00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:45,039 That's interesting about meta too, because I know a lot of 612 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,400 marketers are working that on the LinkedIn side or wanting to 613 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,960 do more of that on the LinkedIn side, but haven't, you know, 614 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,160 dumbled down enough on LinkedIn itself if that's where they want 615 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:54,400 to start. 616 00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:54,640 Right. 617 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,720 But certainly haven't crossed the chasm to Meta. 618 00:26:57,039 --> 00:26:58,799 SPEAKER_01: No, and I I don't think like I don't think many 619 00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:01,039 B2B marketers are doing it on Meta at all. 620 00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:04,480 Um I do think that's just a big opportunity though. 621 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:04,880 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 622 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:05,279 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 623 00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:05,680 Yeah. 624 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,119 SPEAKER_00: So one thing you mentioned, Keith, was the actual 625 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,839 targeting is something that your competitors can't copy. 626 00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:15,200 So if we talk about defensibility overall and paid, 627 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,680 what happens to the creative side? 628 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:25,440 SPEAKER_01: Man, well, I think a lot of creative um LinkedIn is 629 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,599 just so bad, but uh at at this, like they don't have nearly any 630 00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:32,079 of the tools that that Meta Meta's probably the best, 631 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,279 Google's second best. 632 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,920 Um uh LinkedIn and Reddit are the worst. 633 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:40,319 Um uh on on Reddit, though, I'll actually give like quick aside. 634 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,880 The key for Reddit is just um making your con making your ad 635 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,279 content appear native, um, which is very which is actually easy 636 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:50,960 to do if you're thoughtful about it. 637 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,720 Um I think the the where where ad content on Reddit fails is 638 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,200 when it just it's like you're in the middle of a subreddit and 639 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,920 it's just like ad, you know, people just glaze over it. 640 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,559 But if it looks like it's actually a thought, a thoughtful 641 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:05,039 post, um, people will engage with it. 642 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,799 Um shout out to Jason Laritzin at Confluent for kind of that 643 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:09,680 playbook. 644 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,279 Um in general, though, uh I think what's happening with 645 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:23,279 Creative is um you're unlike on Meta and Google, is uh the the 646 00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,519 dynamic optimization is is huge. 647 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,480 So you just basically have to feed the algorithm enough 648 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,160 variance and enough mix of different formats and messages, 649 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:34,960 and it will it will end up picking the winner. 650 00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:37,440 Um and it's getting better and better at that. 651 00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:38,079 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 652 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,079 SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn's got a long way to go though. 653 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,319 SPEAKER_00: So would that be almost that kind of moat in a 654 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:47,039 way is your variant? 655 00:28:47,599 --> 00:28:49,440 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean your variants of it. 656 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,359 Your ability to iterate variant and produce variants, 657 00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:58,640 particularly uh video, um uh is really, really important. 658 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,359 Um that that is a moat uh or or it's something that it's a it's 659 00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:06,799 a muscle, I would say, that is important to develop. 660 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,440 Uh and there's lots of cool tools out there to help with 661 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,200 this, like Opus Pro, you know, something I use a lot. 662 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,079 Um Riverside and yeah, there's tons. 663 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:16,559 There's tons. 664 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:17,920 Cap cut, all of it. 665 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:20,480 And that that's only going to get better and better and better 666 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:21,039 with AI. 667 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:21,359 Yeah. 668 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:23,200 And easier and easier and easier. 669 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:30,319 Um the uh the key is that that uh that can be a very big 670 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,640 competitive advantage and then um yeah, and then targeting. 671 00:29:35,359 --> 00:29:35,839 Yeah. 672 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,680 SPEAKER_00: How do you feel uh about AI videos? 673 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:43,200 You know, you work with so many different companies that are 674 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,240 iterating on all their different video variations. 675 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:47,920 What's happening there? 676 00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,480 Have any like really doned into pure AI um variations? 677 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:53,759 SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen much of it yet. 678 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:54,319 SPEAKER_00: Okay. 679 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:54,880 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 680 00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:56,240 I really haven't. 681 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:58,880 Um I don't know. 682 00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:01,759 I feel like it has to happen at some point. 683 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,880 Um I s I see a lot more like kind of AI edited, like, you 684 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,519 know, AI B roll mixed in. 685 00:30:09,759 --> 00:30:11,599 Um yeah. 686 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:16,559 But I haven't really seen a ton of like purely AI output 687 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:17,759 content. 688 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:18,240 Yeah. 689 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,119 SPEAKER_00: I'm curious what that does for paid, both on the 690 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,799 the video and the image side. 691 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,559 Uh just as we see a flood and maybe a flood of different 692 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:31,599 variants that algorithms can run and test, if that will take away 693 00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:34,319 maybe the targeting does remain that final mode. 694 00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:35,359 SPEAKER_01: Could be. 695 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:36,400 Um, it could be. 696 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:40,160 And and that being said, I mean, I I do think the the algorithms 697 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,200 are also trying to take away aspects of targeting. 698 00:30:43,279 --> 00:30:47,039 Um, but it is still something you you have some power over in 699 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:48,319 addition to the messaging. 700 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,440 The the last thing I'll say is like if you're not pushing 701 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,799 conversion data back into these platforms, um uh you're really 702 00:30:56,799 --> 00:30:58,319 in trouble to get success. 703 00:30:58,640 --> 00:30:59,680 SPEAKER_00: Tell us more about that. 704 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:00,640 SPEAKER_01: Well, all right. 705 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,519 So if if the out if ultimately if all these ad platforms are 706 00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:07,599 basically saying trust the algorithm, trust the algorithm, 707 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:11,200 trust the algorithm, uh, what is the algorithm gonna optimize 708 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:11,359 for? 709 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,400 It's gonna optimize for whatever signal you feed it, right? 710 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,880 So it's gonna say, all right, um you want form submits, great. 711 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,759 I don't care how good those form submits are, though, right? 712 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:23,039 Because I'm just the algorithm. 713 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:25,519 I wanna, I wanna serve your ads as much as possible. 714 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,279 Um so you have to feed it basically CRM conversion data 715 00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:32,640 back into the ad platform in order to say, hey, no, no, no, 716 00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:35,519 no, you have to optimize for this, this thing that's actually 717 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:37,839 valuable to me, not the junk. 718 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:42,799 Um, and the Andromeda algorithm is actually getting the the meta 719 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,480 out ad algorithm is getting better and better and better at 720 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,480 that, at a crazy clip. 721 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,400 For as much as meta seems to be uh losing in some spaces, it's 722 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,240 still really fucking good at at their uh the yeah. 723 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,000 And I think a lot of people, a lot of B2B marketers like dip 724 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,359 their toe into meta, test it, oh, it doesn't work, then they 725 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:05,759 come back. 726 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,960 But like if you haven't tested it in a while, it's worth 727 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:09,599 another try. 728 00:32:09,839 --> 00:32:10,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 729 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,799 And that's one thing I want to double down on because you 730 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,519 mentioned earlier, it's really hard to get it right initially. 731 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:16,480 It takes time. 732 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:16,799 Yeah. 733 00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:19,839 So for companies, marketers, founders that are trying to 734 00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:22,559 scale to new channels, like what should they expect? 735 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,480 What kind of like time horizon does it take to actually get 736 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,920 that right and it to click? 737 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,839 And how much money usually does it take to? 738 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:30,720 Oh man. 739 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,839 SPEAKER_01: Um I actually don't know if I have a great answer to 740 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:34,400 that question. 741 00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:37,279 SPEAKER_00: Um can also be super variant. 742 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:38,640 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I mean. 743 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,480 It can really, really it can be really, you know, kind of again, 744 00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:44,480 like target market dependent. 745 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,400 Um I do think that there's uh like probably a floor of 746 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,920 investment that you have to make. 747 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:54,720 Um and then probably more than anything, it's just coming in 748 00:32:54,720 --> 00:33:00,480 with good test design, um, you know, proper A-B tests, um, uh 749 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,079 knowing what metric you're trying to optimize for, um, and 750 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:08,799 then giving yourself actually not not you giving yourself, but 751 00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:14,000 you getting maybe enough rope uh to not hang yourself, to to 752 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,759 basically prove that you um to to run enough experiments. 753 00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:19,200 Um yeah. 754 00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:21,440 SPEAKER_00: Super helpful advice. 755 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,079 What about um I have to ask you, you're remiss if I didn't. 756 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,119 There's a lot of talk about ads in LLMs. 757 00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:31,519 What is your perspective on all this? 758 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,480 SPEAKER_01: Does DVD, right? 759 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,359 I mean, Perplexities had their um their kind of ad program in 760 00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:40,480 beta, obviously. 761 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,839 Open AI just launched uh theirs. 762 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:48,720 Um it's I don't know, from my perspective, I'm excited for it, 763 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,119 but that's because I this is what I do. 764 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:55,279 Um I mean, and if you think about how much money Google has 765 00:33:55,279 --> 00:34:01,599 made off of this for so long, I mean, it's going to it's it's 766 00:34:01,599 --> 00:34:04,640 gonna be really interesting to watch it unfold. 767 00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:11,440 Um and it like I'm I'm really interested in um uh in how well 768 00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:12,800 like actually what it's gonna look like. 769 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,320 I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet. 770 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:14,639 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 771 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,679 When do you think ads will be live in ChatGPT? 772 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:24,079 SPEAKER_01: If you had to give a guess, um we should get uh Tommy 773 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:25,840 Fink in here from OpenAI. 774 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,199 SPEAKER_00: Um that's right. 775 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,960 SPEAKER_01: Text them right now. 776 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,760 Um I don't know. 777 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,000 I would guess I mean s every so much over there seems up in the 778 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,639 air at the moment, but in the next six months seems 779 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:41,280 reasonable. 780 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:41,679 Yeah. 781 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:42,719 SPEAKER_00: That's very soon. 782 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,199 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 783 00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:44,239 SPEAKER_00: That's very soon. 784 00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:46,639 SPEAKER_01: They gotta make some money if they want IIPO, you 785 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:46,719 know. 786 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,320 Yeah, monetize those free users. 787 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:49,039 SPEAKER_00: 100%. 788 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,000 And I I mean I said Chat GPT, but it goes for every LLM 789 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:52,320 Microsoft. 790 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:54,880 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what what the that one platform I haven't 791 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,599 mentioned is X, which is just excuse my language, dog shit. 792 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,039 Um from an advertising kind of infrastructure standpoint. 793 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,119 SPEAKER_00: We need that asterisk on there, donate on X 794 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:05,599 otherwise. 795 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,599 SPEAKER_01: But like, yeah, but like like you know, ads and GROC 796 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:10,000 and all of that. 797 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:12,800 I think I think that's a natural extension if they can figure 798 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:13,119 that out. 799 00:35:13,199 --> 00:35:13,440 Yeah. 800 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,719 I know they brought on a new CEO to help with the monetization. 801 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:17,679 SPEAKER_00: So we'll see. 802 00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:19,920 It will be very interesting to see. 803 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:23,440 Well, we'll revisit that once we've got ads and LLMs and 804 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,800 Access uh potentially running more paid opportunities. 805 00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:27,519 SPEAKER_01: Definitely. 806 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:28,239 SPEAKER_00: Well, great. 807 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,280 We've talked a lot about paid advertising itself, but you know 808 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,159 what we haven't yet covered is yourself as a founder. 809 00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:38,639 Love to hear, you know, now you're over six years into 810 00:35:38,639 --> 00:35:42,559 building and you've got incredible operating experience 811 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,039 also. 812 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,960 If you look back in time, what have been some of you know the 813 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,239 biggest lessons that you wish somebody had told you earlier in 814 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,000 your founder journey that you would then pass along to someone 815 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:54,079 else? 816 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,639 SPEAKER_01: I think everybody did tell me that's the problem. 817 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,320 I just didn't listen. 818 00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:02,719 Um, no, I mean I I joke that this is the most expensive MBA 819 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,119 anybody's ever uh paid for. 820 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:05,519 Yeah. 821 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,239 Thank you to my investors, the GTA fund. 822 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:10,400 Um pleasure. 823 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:10,960 Yeah. 824 00:36:11,199 --> 00:36:18,639 Uh I mean, it's been there's so many, you know, statements about 825 00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:19,599 being a founder. 826 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,920 Um you know, one of the ones I love a lot is uh, you know, 827 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,880 failure is a symptom of iteration, right? 828 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:28,880 We have failed so many times. 829 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:33,440 We launched a product, got great traction, you know, pivoted it, 830 00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:36,400 got great, you know, went down to nothing to like make it a you 831 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,840 know subscription product, got it back up, you know, went down 832 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,440 to nothing, and then went into the dark for nine months and 833 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,119 rebuilt and pivoted again. 834 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:51,519 And it it that that many times at bat, um, it takes that, you 835 00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:55,119 know, that grit that people talk about, that um that belief, that 836 00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:58,400 like irrational belief that this thing needs to exist. 837 00:36:58,639 --> 00:37:02,159 Um, which, you know, paid advertising, not everybody would 838 00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:03,679 argue needs to exist. 839 00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:06,400 SPEAKER_00: But uh But I mean, it kind of does. 840 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,039 It kind of if you like it's kind of one of the few things that 841 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:09,840 actually has to exist. 842 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,639 Because if you have these platforms that have advertising 843 00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:14,639 potential, like you need to be winning on them. 844 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:15,360 You need to be winning. 845 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:16,159 SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes. 846 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,519 It does like it, I know. 847 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:20,079 Um I meant more like, you know, existentially. 848 00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:21,440 But uh resent. 849 00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:24,400 But so it's like a weird thing to feel deep, so deeply 850 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:24,960 passionate about. 851 00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:27,679 Like this is something this is something I geek out about. 852 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,400 Um, but I uh yeah, I don't know. 853 00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:32,960 It's just the everybody talks about the roller coaster. 854 00:37:33,039 --> 00:37:36,159 All those things, all the cliches are absolutely true, but 855 00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:39,280 you don't really realize they are until you go through it. 856 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:39,760 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 857 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,679 I guess told yourself at like that hardest nine-month period. 858 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:47,440 SPEAKER_01: Not to take it out on my partner. 859 00:37:47,679 --> 00:37:48,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 860 00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:49,440 SPEAKER_01: That was really important. 861 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,639 Um, it took me a long time to realize that uh I was the one 862 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:56,079 responsible for my own happiness. 863 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,079 I could I couldn't seek affirmation or sort of like, you 864 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:04,559 know, sympathy from somebody where that it was just unfair to 865 00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:05,679 ask it from them, right? 866 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,400 Like I should be able to give that to myself was kind of like 867 00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:08,639 that. 868 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:14,000 It was a big unlock that helped me outside of work, um, uh be a 869 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,559 lot have a healthier relationship with my work. 870 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,800 Um, that was big. 871 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:21,280 Uh it's okay to have panic attacks. 872 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,239 It's normal. 873 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,119 Um, get help, like talk to people, get help. 874 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:26,079 Uh, that's really important. 875 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:27,599 Um, yeah. 876 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,159 I think I and that's one of the things that's changed a lot in 877 00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:33,920 Silicon Valley in the last, you know, five to ten years, is like 878 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,320 the embrace of mental health with found for founders. 879 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,000 I think that's really cool. 880 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:48,079 Um and then yeah, just recognize those moments where um it it can 881 00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:50,559 be just like a a simple fork in the road. 882 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:52,079 You could say, all right, I'm done. 883 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,199 What does that mean for me? 884 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,440 Or I I want to keep going, what does that mean for me? 885 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,159 And just, you know, kind of analyze those two options and 886 00:38:58,159 --> 00:38:59,360 pick the one that's right. 887 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:02,159 I I decided to keep going. 888 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,119 Um and uh for better or for worse, uh, seemingly for better. 889 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:10,800 Um, but it there's costs to keeping going too that you just 890 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,440 have to pay in terms of uh your relationships, your your the 891 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,760 opportunity cost potentially to your career. 892 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,280 Um if it does because there is still no guarantee that if you 893 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,840 even if you do decide to keep going, that it's gonna work out. 894 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:24,320 SPEAKER_00: Right. 895 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,559 So yeah, a lot of things to weigh. 896 00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:27,599 But you're absolutely right. 897 00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:31,360 It's a very kind of beautiful time to see people being so much 898 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,159 more open about their mental health for founders and just for 899 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,039 overall humanity. 900 00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:38,800 It's a cool evolution that we're seeing and we're continuing to 901 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:39,039 see. 902 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:39,519 SPEAKER_01: Amen. 903 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,360 SPEAKER_00: And as you've kind of gone along the founder 904 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,960 journey, have there been any particular books or things that 905 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,679 you've read that have really helped you in whatever capacity 906 00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:50,239 you found? 907 00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:55,280 SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, the books that have helped me the 908 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,440 most, if I'm being totally honest. 909 00:39:57,679 --> 00:39:58,239 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%. 910 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,920 SPEAKER_01: Uh it's kind of like escapism. 911 00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:04,480 Like for me, at the end of the day, it's funny. 912 00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:08,239 I like, I know I should do more business reading, but yeah, but 913 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,039 I just like at some point I just need to unplug and fall into a 914 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:13,679 different world. 915 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,239 So I'm like a big sci-fi fantasy nerd. 916 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,239 Um that's one thing, but that's kind of a BS answer. 917 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,079 SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not a BS answer at all. 918 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,440 Actually, I read um really recently something that was 919 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,760 talking about the cost of actually not reading fiction 920 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,480 anymore, just as people are consuming more short-form videos 921 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:36,079 and reading just pure business books is the imagination and 922 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:38,880 what that does for your actual creativity, for marketing, for 923 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,199 the ad creative, for actually thinking through these 924 00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:44,400 campaigns, because suddenly you're served the experience 925 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,119 visually instead of reading the words and actually envisioning 926 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:49,920 what that sci-fi world looks like to yourself. 927 00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:51,679 So it could actually have downstream effects. 928 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,400 SPEAKER_01: You're making me feel good about choices then. 929 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:55,840 SPEAKER_00: 30%, yeah. 930 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,199 Yeah, there's there's uh downfalls to all these or little 931 00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:03,920 trade-offs to all the the evolutions and things that we 932 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:04,239 are doing. 933 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:04,800 Totally. 934 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:05,039 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 935 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,440 Um I will say though, on more of the coming back to the mental 936 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,480 health side, I think uh Untethered Soul was really uh 937 00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:18,719 amazing unlock for me to kind of you know uh let go. 938 00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:22,000 Yeah, anyway, mindful on the mindfulness journey, I'm still 939 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,920 very much on, but um that has helped an enormously. 940 00:41:26,159 --> 00:41:29,360 Um I mean, I could lift I could rattle off business books, but I 941 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,840 actually think that those, if I'm being like really genuine, 942 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:32,639 those are my two answers. 943 00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:34,719 SPEAKER_00: That's the only answer we take is the genuine 944 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:34,800 one. 945 00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:37,039 So those are fantastic answers. 946 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,159 I love it. 947 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,880 And um AI. 948 00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:41,840 Okay. 949 00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:42,880 Yeah. 950 00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:44,719 More of the personal AI side. 951 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,679 But of course, as you're building, you've implemented 952 00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:50,639 some really innovative AI solutions and you're personally 953 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:51,920 using it and your team is using it. 954 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:56,159 I'm curious if there's been any specific use cases that you use, 955 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,639 other than your product, of course, on the paid media side, 956 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,719 but for yourself company building that you know are less 957 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,079 obvious but have been really helpful in your journey. 958 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:06,559 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 959 00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:10,639 I mean, I'm sort of waiting for someone to create. 960 00:42:11,039 --> 00:42:15,599 I I really want a dev tool that's you know, basically built 961 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:19,599 on an agentic platform to make producing integrations way 962 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:20,480 faster. 963 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,599 Um, something that could, for example, look at your, you know, 964 00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:30,079 kind of like a uh a version of cloud code or cursor that um is 965 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:30,719 more specific. 966 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,280 It looks at your code base, understands you know how you 967 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,719 your frameworks for producing integrations, goes off, looks at 968 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,280 API documentation, and turns out like a V1 of an integration, um, 969 00:42:41,519 --> 00:42:44,320 and then helps you with the infrastructure support around 970 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:44,880 that too. 971 00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:48,960 I think that would be fucking awesome because integrations are 972 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,800 such a bottleneck for so many, so many uh companies. 973 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,079 Um, and you don't want to wait, you it they're somewhat 974 00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:58,000 commoditized, but they take effort to build. 975 00:42:58,079 --> 00:42:58,159 Yeah. 976 00:42:58,400 --> 00:42:58,559 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 977 00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,199 Interesting. 978 00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:02,000 Um that's what they're also expected. 979 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:04,639 If you don't have an integration, it's actually a 980 00:43:04,639 --> 00:43:08,000 huge, huge um kind of red flag in the deal process. 981 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:08,960 SPEAKER_01: Totally, totally. 982 00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,440 And it's like 10 years ago you could get people to pay for 983 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:11,920 them, right? 984 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:13,280 Like kind of a premium firm. 985 00:43:13,519 --> 00:43:14,400 Now it's like, no way. 986 00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:16,480 Like I'm just gonna go to your competitor that has them. 987 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:16,880 Yeah. 988 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:17,599 SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 989 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,719 It's a non-negotiable. 990 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:19,280 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 991 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,400 Um it's like the what's the expression, the Big Mac, the 992 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,079 french fries on the uh apple pie. 993 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,880 Like you don't, you don't pay for like nobody's buying a happy 994 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,400 meal for the apple pie, right? 995 00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:29,119 Like, yeah. 996 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,800 SPEAKER_00: No, no, certainly not. 997 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,960 SPEAKER_01: Um and then maybe more on the personal front. 998 00:43:35,039 --> 00:43:37,280 And it's just because I'm dealing with this all the time. 999 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,920 It would actually be a terrible business because they would have 1000 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:40,960 no recurring revenue. 1001 00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:41,280 Yeah. 1002 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,559 But like I would love it. 1003 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,960 I'm going through a home remodel, and I would just love 1004 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,480 if there was some like AI platform to help with all of 1005 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:48,639 that. 1006 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,199 Because the project management is like, I feel like I've got a 1007 00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:53,280 whole nother full-time job on the side. 1008 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:54,239 SPEAKER_00: You probably do. 1009 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:55,440 That sounds like a real task. 1010 00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:57,440 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it just sucks because like I would I would 1011 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,840 happily pay for it, but as soon as the project's over, you know, 1012 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:00,639 I churn out. 1013 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,440 So terrible business, but would be real cool. 1014 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:04,880 SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome. 1015 00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,039 Well, Keith, this has been amazing. 1016 00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,000 If you had to leave listeners with one piece of advice, you've 1017 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,519 shared a ton of really valuable advice, but overall advice or 1018 00:44:13,519 --> 00:44:17,039 some kind of um quote or life motto that you kind of live by 1019 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:18,880 through years of experience. 1020 00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:22,320 SPEAKER_01: Ooh, another deep question. 1021 00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:23,920 Um, I don't know. 1022 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,280 I think what I said I said before, um, failure is a side 1023 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:28,239 effect of iteration. 1024 00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:30,639 I think that's an Elon Musk quote. 1025 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,679 Um, that is something that I it's kind of like I I it 1026 00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:38,400 reassures me about the choices I make. 1027 00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:42,239 Um uh it's like, you know, you don't you don't kind of get to 1028 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,480 that best outcome unless you unless you fail, um, unless you 1029 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:46,800 try. 1030 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,440 Um so that's something that kind of uh makes me feel okay when I 1031 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,159 make the dumb move that I do from time to time, as we all do. 1032 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:55,199 SPEAKER_00: Because they're not dumb. 1033 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:55,599 unknown: Yeah. 1034 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:56,639 SPEAKER_00: Exactly. 1035 00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,960 Yeah, when I always think of it as the same thing, just in 1036 00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:01,039 different wording, but failure is a data point. 1037 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,239 So it's like if you don't have data, you're actually uh in the 1038 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,800 worst possible position that you could be and you'll have data on 1039 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,199 how to the success front and the failure front. 1040 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,239 But um, if it's not statistically significant, how 1041 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:12,800 do you iterate? 1042 00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:14,320 Just like the paid side, truly. 1043 00:45:14,639 --> 00:45:17,599 SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's a weird sort of motto to to take 1044 00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,480 into parenting, kind of like it's a weird way to phrase it in 1045 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,320 parenting, but I do think about that a lot with my kids. 1046 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,000 It's like you gotta you gotta let them fail. 1047 00:45:24,159 --> 00:45:26,639 Yeah, you gotta let 'em you gotta let them try something and 1048 00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:27,519 have it not work out. 1049 00:45:27,679 --> 00:45:28,000 Yeah. 1050 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,400 That's my, I guess, negative wisdom. 1051 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:32,400 SPEAKER_00: Very, very helpful. 1052 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,159 Keith, this has been wonderful. 1053 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:34,639 Thank you. 1054 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,320 Really appreciate the conversation in time. 1055 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:37,519 SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Sophie.