Why Culture is Key to AI Transformation in CX with Eric Mistry of Zapier | Episode 106

1 00:00:16,769 --> 00:00:19,490 SPEAKER_00: Getting really good at just switching tools and 2 00:00:19,490 --> 00:00:20,690 adapting and learning it. 3 00:00:20,769 --> 00:00:20,929 Yeah. 4 00:00:21,089 --> 00:00:22,530 That's the number one skill set right now. 5 00:00:22,609 --> 00:00:26,050 It's not, oh, I'm really good at this one tool because I said 6 00:00:26,210 --> 00:00:27,410 sleepfrogging. 7 00:00:28,130 --> 00:00:30,369 SPEAKER_01: Once again, welcome to the Digital Customer 8 00:00:30,369 --> 00:00:33,090 Experience Podcast with me, Alex Turkovich. 9 00:00:33,410 --> 00:00:36,210 So glad you could join us here today and every week as we 10 00:00:36,210 --> 00:00:39,570 explore how digital can help enhance the customer and 11 00:00:39,570 --> 00:00:40,770 employee experience. 12 00:00:41,009 --> 00:00:43,649 My goal is to share what my guests and I have learned over 13 00:00:43,649 --> 00:00:46,210 the years so that you can get the insights that you need to 14 00:00:46,210 --> 00:00:48,210 evolve your own digital programs. 15 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:51,810 If you'd like more info, need to get in touch, or sign up for the 16 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:54,850 weekly companion newsletter that has additional articles and 17 00:00:54,850 --> 00:00:58,370 resources in it, go to digitalcustomer success.com for 18 00:00:58,370 --> 00:00:58,530 now. 19 00:00:58,690 --> 00:00:59,969 Let's get started. 20 00:01:01,330 --> 00:01:05,010 Hello and welcome back to the Digital CX Podcast episode 106. 21 00:01:05,409 --> 00:01:10,450 And I am pleased to welcome back this week Eric Mystery, who, 22 00:01:10,689 --> 00:01:15,409 since he was on last, maybe a year or two ago, has joined 23 00:01:15,409 --> 00:01:16,049 Zapier. 24 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:20,850 And if you listen to the last Eric Mystery show, um he's very 25 00:01:20,850 --> 00:01:24,370 much involved in customer education. 26 00:01:24,769 --> 00:01:28,930 But he's also been just deeply entrenched in artificial 27 00:01:28,930 --> 00:01:32,850 intelligence basically from day one, and has a lot of kind of 28 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:36,850 that background of the evolution of AI and continues to play, 29 00:01:36,930 --> 00:01:41,890 especially in his new role at Zapier, where he's basically 30 00:01:41,890 --> 00:01:48,850 combining all of his worlds from customer education to playing 31 00:01:48,850 --> 00:01:53,329 around with AI and uh just really helping bolster you know 32 00:01:53,490 --> 00:01:59,409 Zapier customers' ability to use the tool sure, but then also to 33 00:01:59,409 --> 00:02:02,450 use the ecosystem of tools around them. 34 00:02:02,769 --> 00:02:06,210 Pretty fascinating conversation if you're interested in where AI 35 00:02:06,210 --> 00:02:10,370 is, but specifically in the lens of customer experience and 36 00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:11,490 customer education. 37 00:02:11,650 --> 00:02:13,569 This is gonna be a great episode for you. 38 00:02:13,810 --> 00:02:18,289 One quick housekeeping note uh registration is still open for 39 00:02:18,289 --> 00:02:21,169 the first cohort of the Digital CX masterclass. 40 00:02:21,250 --> 00:02:25,890 It's a six-week cohort program that I'm gonna be teaching all 41 00:02:25,890 --> 00:02:30,129 about Digital CX from inception and strategy all the way through 42 00:02:30,129 --> 00:02:32,770 to execution and maintenance and all that kind of stuff. 43 00:02:32,849 --> 00:02:35,729 We talk about org design, we talk about tools, we talk about 44 00:02:35,729 --> 00:02:39,170 artificial intelligence, we talk about all kinds of fun stuff. 45 00:02:39,330 --> 00:02:40,849 So um check it out. 46 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:44,610 Digital Customer Success forward slash masterclass. 47 00:02:44,849 --> 00:02:48,129 All right, let's get into the show with Eric Mystery. 48 00:02:48,849 --> 00:02:54,289 Eric, you are, I think, one of I want to say seven or eight 49 00:02:54,289 --> 00:02:56,370 people that have returned to the show. 50 00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:58,370 So you're in an elite club. 51 00:02:58,610 --> 00:03:00,849 SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say that's uh how it company right 52 00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:01,090 there. 53 00:03:01,330 --> 00:03:02,050 SPEAKER_01: So welcome back. 54 00:03:02,289 --> 00:03:04,449 SPEAKER_00: Got an invite back, and yeah, you weren't like, wow, 55 00:03:04,530 --> 00:03:06,210 that guy said some weird stuff. 56 00:03:06,370 --> 00:03:06,689 Yeah, no. 57 00:03:06,930 --> 00:03:07,890 Never gonna talk to him again. 58 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:09,569 SPEAKER_01: Well, it's interesting because we've been 59 00:03:09,569 --> 00:03:13,009 talking on and off here and there, and um, you've had a lot 60 00:03:13,009 --> 00:03:17,090 of changes over the past year or so, and so I figured we'd talk 61 00:03:17,090 --> 00:03:17,729 about that a little bit. 62 00:03:17,890 --> 00:03:21,170 But when we first chatted, you were part of the Content Square 63 00:03:21,170 --> 00:03:21,409 team. 64 00:03:21,569 --> 00:03:26,050 There's been a few Content Square people on, and uh, you 65 00:03:26,050 --> 00:03:29,569 know, deeply focused on customer education and stuff like that, 66 00:03:29,729 --> 00:03:35,330 but you had already solidly um explored and been part of the AI 67 00:03:35,330 --> 00:03:38,770 fund that was emerging like two years ago when you were on. 68 00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:42,289 And so fast forward to today, do you want to talk a little bit 69 00:03:42,289 --> 00:03:44,129 about what your journey has been? 70 00:03:44,449 --> 00:03:46,689 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it has certainly been a tumultuous 71 00:03:46,689 --> 00:03:47,009 journey. 72 00:03:47,170 --> 00:03:51,250 Uh yeah, just last Friday was my uh my 34th birthday. 73 00:03:51,330 --> 00:03:53,890 So I was like, oh, what has happened over the past year? 74 00:03:54,050 --> 00:03:55,409 And man, it's been a lot. 75 00:03:55,490 --> 00:03:59,810 So uh Content Square, my role and team kind of got eliminated 76 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:01,810 as kind of post-merger things happen. 77 00:04:02,210 --> 00:04:06,610 Um and then from there I went briefly to a company called 78 00:04:06,610 --> 00:04:09,729 SmartCat, which was AI translation to help launch their 79 00:04:09,729 --> 00:04:12,530 customer education function, basically. 80 00:04:12,770 --> 00:04:13,090 Right. 81 00:04:13,330 --> 00:04:18,529 Uh and then in September I got invited by Zapier to basically 82 00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:22,769 do my dream job, which is AI transformation, yeah, but also 83 00:04:22,769 --> 00:04:25,490 through a teaching and learning lens. 84 00:04:25,569 --> 00:04:30,209 Like, how do we actually move people from wanting to be AI 85 00:04:30,209 --> 00:04:32,050 transformed to actually AI transformed? 86 00:04:32,129 --> 00:04:36,209 So that's been an incredible journey in like getting to 87 00:04:36,209 --> 00:04:38,530 basically work at my dream company into Zapier. 88 00:04:38,769 --> 00:04:39,250 Zapier. 89 00:04:39,410 --> 00:04:39,730 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 90 00:04:39,970 --> 00:04:43,649 Um, it I was so excited when I first saw that you were moving 91 00:04:43,649 --> 00:04:43,970 over there. 92 00:04:44,129 --> 00:04:47,889 I was like, yeah, that yeah, you know, the the shoe fits. 93 00:04:48,129 --> 00:04:50,850 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think someone said, Oh, the kid got 94 00:04:50,850 --> 00:04:54,290 led into the candy shop, and that was pretty much accurate. 95 00:04:54,610 --> 00:04:58,129 SPEAKER_01: Um so talk to me a little bit about your role 96 00:04:58,129 --> 00:04:58,769 specifically. 97 00:04:59,089 --> 00:05:02,370 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so day to day I'm doing a lot of different 98 00:05:02,370 --> 00:05:02,769 things. 99 00:05:02,930 --> 00:05:06,769 Um, one part of my job is working directly with clients, 100 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:10,449 like actually sitting in with their company, talking to them 101 00:05:10,610 --> 00:05:15,730 and understanding like one, what do you want to do with AI? 102 00:05:15,970 --> 00:05:19,009 And two, how do we weave that into your culture? 103 00:05:19,250 --> 00:05:22,370 Because I think the biggest thing I've seen a lot of people, 104 00:05:22,449 --> 00:05:25,490 especially on LinkedIn, get wrong is it's not about the 105 00:05:25,490 --> 00:05:25,970 technology. 106 00:05:26,129 --> 00:05:32,850 Like this whole AI revolution is about culture change, it's about 107 00:05:32,850 --> 00:05:34,689 getting people comfortable with it. 108 00:05:35,009 --> 00:05:37,730 You're always gonna have people like early adopters, like, I'm 109 00:05:37,730 --> 00:05:39,649 always gonna look for that weird tool. 110 00:05:39,810 --> 00:05:40,129 Yeah. 111 00:05:40,530 --> 00:05:43,730 But one, you're not gonna have a company of a bunch of people 112 00:05:43,730 --> 00:05:46,050 like me, two, you don't want a company of a bunch of people 113 00:05:46,050 --> 00:05:46,530 like me. 114 00:05:46,769 --> 00:05:50,530 You need to get everyone on board, everyone using the same 115 00:05:50,530 --> 00:05:52,850 shared language, the same shared goals. 116 00:05:53,009 --> 00:05:58,050 Like, how should someone in 2026 be using AI tools? 117 00:05:58,129 --> 00:06:00,370 Um, yeah, and that's a lot of what I explored day today. 118 00:06:00,689 --> 00:06:01,250 SPEAKER_01: That's cool. 119 00:06:01,410 --> 00:06:06,930 So your remit is essentially AI education for Zapier customers. 120 00:06:07,089 --> 00:06:10,050 But then there's, I'm guessing it's a big big part of this is 121 00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:13,569 just thought leadership and and being on shows like this and 122 00:06:13,569 --> 00:06:13,810 stuff. 123 00:06:14,449 --> 00:06:16,530 SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, and it's it's also just you know, 124 00:06:16,769 --> 00:06:19,329 internally, we're really trying to push that envelope. 125 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:23,490 Like AI fluency is a major tenet of like how does Zapier work? 126 00:06:23,649 --> 00:06:26,129 Um, because if we're gonna be building those products, if 127 00:06:26,129 --> 00:06:28,769 we're gonna be saying, you know, we're AI transformed, we want to 128 00:06:28,769 --> 00:06:29,649 be on that cutting edge. 129 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:33,089 And so those of us who are early adopters who are willing to 130 00:06:33,089 --> 00:06:36,610 experiment, then we also get brought in to show the rest of 131 00:06:36,610 --> 00:06:39,490 the folks at Zapier who like, you know, they might be pushing 132 00:06:39,490 --> 00:06:42,290 the edge in some areas, but may not know exactly how to use 133 00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:43,170 these AI tools. 134 00:06:43,329 --> 00:06:45,730 We're all teaching each other, yeah, and also trying to like 135 00:06:45,730 --> 00:06:46,769 raise that level. 136 00:06:47,170 --> 00:06:50,129 Um, and then also I'm doing a lot of work with getting uh 137 00:06:50,129 --> 00:06:52,530 Zapier Academy kind of back up and running. 138 00:06:52,689 --> 00:06:52,930 Cool. 139 00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:56,449 So yeah, how do we turn, you know, I work individually with 140 00:06:56,449 --> 00:06:56,769 companies. 141 00:06:56,850 --> 00:06:59,730 Yeah, how do I turn parts of that into something scalable 142 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:00,930 that everyone can use? 143 00:07:01,089 --> 00:07:05,970 Because I also think that AI, while it's simultaneously like 144 00:07:05,970 --> 00:07:08,930 an equalizer, it's also one of those things where the future is 145 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:09,810 not equally distributed. 146 00:07:09,889 --> 00:07:13,810 Yeah, if you have access to the tools and access to advanced 147 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:16,209 models, you can do more. 148 00:07:16,530 --> 00:07:21,490 And so I don't want to have like knowledge be the gap that keeps 149 00:07:21,490 --> 00:07:22,530 folks from doing with it. 150 00:07:22,769 --> 00:07:23,329 SPEAKER_01: For sure. 151 00:07:23,490 --> 00:07:27,329 Um, I was talking to somebody else today actually about this 152 00:07:27,329 --> 00:07:33,970 on a call, and we were talking about the fact that um it almost 153 00:07:33,970 --> 00:07:38,449 doesn't matter what if you're in the Gemini camp or the Claude 154 00:07:38,449 --> 00:07:44,050 camp or you know the OpenAI camp or whatever camp you're in, like 155 00:07:44,209 --> 00:07:47,329 it kind of does if you're in the minutiae, but really if you're 156 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:52,370 um if you're analyzing a heap load of data or you're just you 157 00:07:52,370 --> 00:07:55,889 know trying to automate your life or whatever, all of these 158 00:07:55,889 --> 00:07:58,370 tools are just kind of leapfrogging each other. 159 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:03,329 And and so I like your approach of like you're not teaching like 160 00:08:03,649 --> 00:08:07,569 this thing, like you're not going hard on Claude or OpenAI 161 00:08:07,889 --> 00:08:11,329 or OpenAI or whatever, but you're it's more about the skill 162 00:08:11,329 --> 00:08:15,569 involved and the the the way of thinking, sure, prompt, you 163 00:08:15,569 --> 00:08:17,250 know, prompt engineering or whatever. 164 00:08:17,410 --> 00:08:19,089 Even that's scary to a lot of people, yeah. 165 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:23,170 But it's more about like how are we using this on a day-to-day 166 00:08:23,170 --> 00:08:27,009 basis, and what are the habits to get into, and how do you 167 00:08:27,009 --> 00:08:29,490 think about your daily routine? 168 00:08:29,730 --> 00:08:32,689 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'll and a lot more of it is like more 169 00:08:32,689 --> 00:08:34,209 transferable than people think. 170 00:08:34,289 --> 00:08:38,929 I I think I've switched camps like many times, and yeah, I 171 00:08:38,929 --> 00:08:41,809 think day-to-day I switch between models, I switch between 172 00:08:41,809 --> 00:08:44,289 products, like I'm using cursor, I'm using cowork, I'm using 173 00:08:44,289 --> 00:08:47,729 clawed code, I'm using codecs, I'm also playing like Google's 174 00:08:47,729 --> 00:08:48,529 AI Studio. 175 00:08:49,649 --> 00:08:53,649 It doesn't really matter what tool you're using in the end, 176 00:08:53,729 --> 00:08:57,569 because right now we're still in such a fluxy mode that it is one 177 00:08:57,569 --> 00:09:02,609 of those things where if you can understand almost, we call them 178 00:09:02,609 --> 00:09:04,529 like the base principles, like the primitives. 179 00:09:04,609 --> 00:09:06,529 Like, what are those AI primitives? 180 00:09:06,689 --> 00:09:08,289 And they're all gonna call them different things. 181 00:09:08,449 --> 00:09:12,849 Like I use cursor, they call a chat an agent, which means it's 182 00:09:12,849 --> 00:09:14,529 a thing in all these different products. 183 00:09:14,689 --> 00:09:18,289 It's like, okay, I know I'm gonna have a conversation with a 184 00:09:18,289 --> 00:09:18,609 model. 185 00:09:19,569 --> 00:09:21,569 I know I can bring context in. 186 00:09:21,729 --> 00:09:24,049 Some places they call that skills, other time places they 187 00:09:24,049 --> 00:09:24,769 call it other things. 188 00:09:24,849 --> 00:09:28,289 It's like understanding those building blocks I have available 189 00:09:28,289 --> 00:09:32,369 and how I bring them along is the main thing I think about. 190 00:09:32,449 --> 00:09:36,849 And also just because things are moving so fast, getting really 191 00:09:36,849 --> 00:09:39,969 good at just switching tools and adapting and learning it. 192 00:09:40,049 --> 00:09:41,889 Yeah, that's the number one skill set right now. 193 00:09:41,969 --> 00:09:45,409 It's not, oh, I'm really good at this one tool because you said 194 00:09:45,569 --> 00:09:46,209 sleepfrogging. 195 00:09:46,369 --> 00:09:46,689 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 196 00:09:47,089 --> 00:09:49,969 And you know, just because you're a master at Claude code 197 00:09:50,049 --> 00:09:54,369 doesn't mean, you know, your next client that you advise or 198 00:09:54,369 --> 00:09:57,569 your next company is gonna have Claude even, you know, they 199 00:09:57,649 --> 00:10:01,089 might they might be in an entirely different data security 200 00:10:01,250 --> 00:10:02,369 privacy ecosystem. 201 00:10:03,089 --> 00:10:04,849 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's the other really interesting thing, 202 00:10:05,009 --> 00:10:09,009 seeing all these different companies, because my first like 203 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:12,129 job out of college was working in healthcare software. 204 00:10:12,289 --> 00:10:12,769 Oh, yeah. 205 00:10:13,009 --> 00:10:17,569 And it's one of those places I'm like, how do you manage that? 206 00:10:17,729 --> 00:10:20,689 How do you manage the privacy and you know, dealing with 207 00:10:20,689 --> 00:10:23,329 healthcare data, the consistency you need with that data? 208 00:10:23,409 --> 00:10:27,809 It's so it's one industry is also another huge factor that's 209 00:10:27,809 --> 00:10:28,929 playing into all of this. 210 00:10:29,250 --> 00:10:31,969 And you know, some of us jump between industries. 211 00:10:32,209 --> 00:10:35,409 If I'm working in the healthcare industry right now, and I'm not 212 00:10:35,569 --> 00:10:38,369 in my work able to use these tools by virtue of you know 213 00:10:38,529 --> 00:10:41,729 privacy problems that haven't been solved or a company culture 214 00:10:41,809 --> 00:10:45,729 where it's like we're gonna value privacy, which I'm pretty 215 00:10:45,729 --> 00:10:47,969 happy about as someone who has healthcare data. 216 00:10:48,129 --> 00:10:48,369 Sure. 217 00:10:48,529 --> 00:10:51,250 Um, you know, where does that put you when you're trying to 218 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:52,209 move to your next role? 219 00:10:52,449 --> 00:10:54,689 Like how and where are you supposed to learn these things? 220 00:10:54,929 --> 00:10:55,169 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 221 00:10:55,250 --> 00:10:59,329 So let's talk about that for a second because um uh a few weeks 222 00:10:59,329 --> 00:11:03,089 ago at the customer success summit, we did in Austin, we did 223 00:11:03,169 --> 00:11:05,329 um, you know, a couple of different things. 224 00:11:05,489 --> 00:11:10,289 One of them was like a live vibe coding session where you know we 225 00:11:10,289 --> 00:11:15,889 solicited ideas from the audience, you voted on one, uh, 226 00:11:15,969 --> 00:11:19,969 we got some feature requests in, and the next day we went to 227 00:11:19,969 --> 00:11:20,209 town. 228 00:11:20,289 --> 00:11:24,129 And that one of the one of the rules, so to speak, of that 229 00:11:24,129 --> 00:11:29,809 exercise was we're creating a tool that doesn't rely on a data 230 00:11:29,809 --> 00:11:30,689 source, right? 231 00:11:30,849 --> 00:11:33,489 That doesn't rely on being integrated anywhere, that 232 00:11:33,489 --> 00:11:38,129 doesn't really rely on like you know specific customer 233 00:11:38,129 --> 00:11:41,489 information, mainly because I wanted to demonstrate the fact 234 00:11:41,489 --> 00:11:46,129 that you can still do this stuff without having all of the 235 00:11:46,129 --> 00:11:50,049 connectors and you know, insight into your CRM and stuff like 236 00:11:50,049 --> 00:11:50,129 that. 237 00:11:50,289 --> 00:11:53,250 So for folks who are in a restricted environment like 238 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:56,929 that, yeah, what's what what would you say to them in terms 239 00:11:56,929 --> 00:12:00,129 of like, you know, I know you can't do this, but do this. 240 00:12:00,449 --> 00:12:02,929 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean I kind of do this on my own. 241 00:12:03,009 --> 00:12:06,209 I was doing this also before I joined Zapier because at Zapier 242 00:12:06,289 --> 00:12:10,049 I've basically been given this gift basket of here's every AI 243 00:12:10,049 --> 00:12:11,569 tool you could want to use. 244 00:12:11,649 --> 00:12:11,969 Yeah. 245 00:12:12,129 --> 00:12:14,209 Please go push the limits. 246 00:12:14,369 --> 00:12:17,969 Uh before that was basically, hey, you are on your own if you 247 00:12:17,969 --> 00:12:19,569 want to experiment on this on your own. 248 00:12:19,809 --> 00:12:23,089 Um, the things I like to do when I'm looking at that problem is 249 00:12:23,409 --> 00:12:25,649 one, I just give myself little puzzles to solve. 250 00:12:25,889 --> 00:12:28,289 So I'm like, how could I make something like this? 251 00:12:28,449 --> 00:12:30,209 Like, how can I keep track of my plants? 252 00:12:30,449 --> 00:12:34,289 How can I, you know, build a little app for like my kids' 253 00:12:34,449 --> 00:12:35,569 daycare schedule? 254 00:12:35,729 --> 00:12:38,369 Um, how can I like our gym's schedule is terrible? 255 00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:40,609 It's like this random PDF that's impossible to read. 256 00:12:41,649 --> 00:12:44,849 How can I build something that just parses that site and makes 257 00:12:44,849 --> 00:12:46,449 it like Eric readable? 258 00:12:46,529 --> 00:12:49,089 I only care about lab swimming when four lanes is open. 259 00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:49,409 Yeah. 260 00:12:49,569 --> 00:12:50,929 That's all I need from the website. 261 00:12:51,089 --> 00:12:51,329 Yeah. 262 00:12:51,489 --> 00:12:54,529 How can I build tools that help me solve those like little 263 00:12:54,529 --> 00:12:55,009 puzzles? 264 00:12:55,169 --> 00:12:55,489 Yeah. 265 00:12:55,809 --> 00:12:57,969 Because then again, it comes back to those core principles. 266 00:12:58,049 --> 00:12:59,169 How can I use those tools? 267 00:12:59,569 --> 00:13:03,809 Um, and I think every one of these um tools is also starting 268 00:13:03,809 --> 00:13:05,489 to put out really good documentation because 269 00:13:05,729 --> 00:13:08,929 documentation is a much lighter lift for them these days. 270 00:13:09,169 --> 00:13:14,449 And like Anthropic's new academy of things is incredible. 271 00:13:14,689 --> 00:13:19,009 Um, and it's like the knowledge is there and it's taking the 272 00:13:19,009 --> 00:13:21,809 time to solve it and you know apply it to problems. 273 00:13:21,969 --> 00:13:25,250 Uh, my wife also has like a bakery as a business, so I'm 274 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,089 like, oh great, perfect use case. 275 00:13:27,250 --> 00:13:30,369 Anytime I want to test out like a website design tool, yeah, and 276 00:13:30,449 --> 00:13:35,089 she's like, hey, let me let me just try building a version of 277 00:13:35,089 --> 00:13:35,409 your site. 278 00:13:35,489 --> 00:13:37,009 Like, we haven't pushed any of them live yet. 279 00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:39,489 I was gonna say, like, it's it's still Do you need another new 280 00:13:39,489 --> 00:13:39,729 website? 281 00:13:39,969 --> 00:13:43,089 Oh no, it's yeah, I mean, the old website is still on 282 00:13:43,089 --> 00:13:43,569 WordPress. 283 00:13:43,809 --> 00:13:44,129 SPEAKER_02: Yep. 284 00:13:44,289 --> 00:13:47,250 SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm like, I really just gotta swap it over. 285 00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:50,449 I've built like three variations on Lovable, they're all better 286 00:13:50,449 --> 00:13:52,449 than the site I hand coded. 287 00:13:52,529 --> 00:13:55,089 Yeah, like yeah, so much better. 288 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:55,889 Yeah. 289 00:13:56,289 --> 00:13:58,689 And I think that's the other thing that's really interesting. 290 00:13:58,769 --> 00:14:01,569 It's like, yeah, when I was using Chat GPT, like three when 291 00:14:01,569 --> 00:14:05,250 it like the earlier days, the biggest thing everyone pointed 292 00:14:05,250 --> 00:14:07,969 out was like, oh, it has flaws here and here and here. 293 00:14:08,049 --> 00:14:13,329 And it's like, it does, absolutely we know where this is 294 00:14:13,329 --> 00:14:13,649 going. 295 00:14:13,809 --> 00:14:16,369 It is going to get better, it's going to get to a point where 296 00:14:16,369 --> 00:14:18,849 it's better than the lay person making websites. 297 00:14:19,009 --> 00:14:19,329 Yeah. 298 00:14:19,649 --> 00:14:24,209 And I think soon it's going to be on par with really good 299 00:14:24,209 --> 00:14:24,929 designers. 300 00:14:25,089 --> 00:14:27,649 And then when you factor in really good designers using 301 00:14:27,649 --> 00:14:30,849 these powerful tools, you're going to hit even more like next 302 00:14:30,849 --> 00:14:31,169 level. 303 00:14:31,329 --> 00:14:31,569 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 304 00:14:31,969 --> 00:14:34,129 SPEAKER_00: And that's I think the other really interesting 305 00:14:34,129 --> 00:14:38,369 thing in watching this AI space is what happens when you give 306 00:14:38,529 --> 00:14:42,209 like a subject matter expert with like really deep expertise 307 00:14:42,209 --> 00:14:45,089 and really deep language access to these tools. 308 00:14:45,489 --> 00:14:48,129 Like our marketing team is amazing. 309 00:14:48,289 --> 00:14:51,729 And just seeing like what happens when you give a marketer 310 00:14:52,369 --> 00:14:56,049 really powerful AI tools to solve marketing problems with 311 00:14:56,049 --> 00:16:56,479 marketing specific language, yeah. 312 00:16:56,959 --> 00:16:59,039 It blows anything I could write out of the water. 313 00:16:59,199 --> 00:17:00,799 Like they're building websites. 314 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:04,159 I'm like, wow, I want to go in and do whatever this website is 315 00:17:04,159 --> 00:17:04,720 telling me to. 316 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,639 I couldn't build that because I don't have that marketing brain 317 00:17:08,639 --> 00:17:09,200 expertise. 318 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:10,559 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 319 00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:14,399 And it that's where the context comes in, right? 320 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:19,440 Because I mean, anyone can go sign up for a you know,$20 plan 321 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:20,319 of whatever it is. 322 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:20,799 Yeah. 323 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,159 Um, but it's not going to do what you want it to do unless 324 00:17:24,159 --> 00:17:25,920 you give it that context. 325 00:17:26,159 --> 00:17:30,480 So in the in your example of the marketing function, there's 326 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,039 probably a lot of stuff that they're working with that has 327 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,839 that context of like marketing experience and that language and 328 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:39,680 being able to, you know, walk that walk. 329 00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:40,319 Yeah. 330 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:43,839 But I think that's true for just about everything because you're 331 00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:48,399 not going to go, you know, to a you know, a blank slate and just 332 00:17:48,399 --> 00:17:51,279 expect it to do exactly what you want it to do. 333 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,159 There's a little bit of work that goes into, you know, 334 00:17:54,319 --> 00:17:57,599 upfront work to provide that context or the skills or 335 00:17:57,599 --> 00:17:58,799 whatever we want to call it, you know? 336 00:17:59,039 --> 00:17:59,200 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 337 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,920 I'm blanking on exactly who wrote about it on LinkedIn. 338 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,559 I'll it's my saves, I'll send it to you later, put in the show 339 00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:10,480 notes, but it was a brilliant post on how like the work has 340 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:11,039 shifted. 341 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,519 Like I have always thought of myself as someone who makes 342 00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:13,759 things. 343 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,639 Like I make websites, I make automations, like I am a maker. 344 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,440 And so the value of my work comes from like the making and 345 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:27,119 like the art and time I spend in making. 346 00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:32,720 And now and I fully recognize this, most of my work, like 60, 347 00:18:32,879 --> 00:18:37,519 70%, is in the planning and the setup and like crafting the 348 00:18:37,519 --> 00:18:39,920 framework to make the work happen. 349 00:18:40,159 --> 00:18:43,920 And then the work happens, and then I spend probably 20% of my 350 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,599 time reviewing the output of the work. 351 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,000 So it's like I assign work almost like a director level, I 352 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,000 watch it happen for like 10% of my IC level, and I have 20% like 353 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,359 the manager who's checking off. 354 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,879 Like, yeah, does this pass? 355 00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,319 Did my team produce the works that I can trust and push up to 356 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:01,920 the rest of the world? 357 00:19:02,399 --> 00:19:05,920 And that shift, I think, is also really uncomfortable for a lot 358 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,240 of people. 359 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:09,920 And getting past that personally was very uncomfortable. 360 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:14,800 I am still a maker, but I'm a different kind of maker. 361 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,240 And separating the time I spend making stuff from what I produce 362 00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:23,839 was a very interesting like brain conundrum. 363 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,759 It's like a trust thing, yeah. 364 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,319 SPEAKER_01: A little bit. 365 00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:30,240 It I feel like we're getting into an era of communication. 366 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:38,559 Like I don't know, maker of old, who maybe is I'm not I'm not 367 00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:41,519 labeling you as antisocial, but maybe you know, I think of a 368 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:44,400 traditional maker and it's somebody in a workshop building 369 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,720 stuff, it's somebody in a home office in their space, in their 370 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,559 head, realizing something that they have a vision for. 371 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:53,120 Yeah. 372 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,960 And it feels like we're doing that more with communication 373 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,440 now, and but we're communicating with you know whatever tool is 374 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,160 in front of us, which is just um yeah, it mindfuck. 375 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,720 Pardon the pardon the pardon the uh the phrase. 376 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,440 SPEAKER_00: No, I I've never heard that word before, but uh 377 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,880 because like the other thing I'm like, what makes this feel 378 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:17,519 different? 379 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:19,200 Like what is it in this era? 380 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,160 And I think where I'm seeing a lot of folks have success is 381 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,079 that entrepreneurial mindset, like even if they are not an 382 00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:32,799 entrepreneur, that idea of like I'm gonna go and like make 383 00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:36,880 something and do something, like I'm going to solve my own 384 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,519 problem in a way that others might also want. 385 00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:42,319 Um, I think when we look like a cross LinkedIn, it's like, oh, 386 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,360 like I've seen like what you're doing, the that whole set of 387 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,759 guides, like it's a very entrepreneurial thing. 388 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,160 And everyone who I've seen who's kind of done that dive in there 389 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,200 and is doing really well, they have an entrepreneurial mindset 390 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,079 somewhere in there. 391 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:58,559 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 392 00:20:59,120 --> 00:20:59,440 Yeah. 393 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:00,400 It's true. 394 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:05,279 Cause I mean, um, you know, there's so much like niche 395 00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:08,960 specificity that we're that's where the opportunity really 396 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:09,920 lies, you know. 397 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:14,720 Um I just I I mean, I often there's so much there's so many 398 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,319 layoffs happening right now, yeah, especially among big 399 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:18,720 firms. 400 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,000 I mean, I was chatting with somebody from Atlassian the 401 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,039 other day, and they're massive layoff there. 402 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:34,319 Um and if you are one of those people and I hope you've been 403 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:40,559 given a lovely severance package, this is like your time 404 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,400 to go build stuff. 405 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,480 Like, and I think the problem that we all encounter when we go 406 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,440 to do this stuff is we get to the keyboard and we're like, you 407 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,799 know, like we're really limited by our creativity, and it's 408 00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:01,039 forced us to kind of reconnect with this creative uh element of 409 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:01,200 it. 410 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:04,400 And sure, I go through my day now and I'm like, okay, what 411 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,640 element, you know, I I almost flag things like this is a thing 412 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,160 that I can probably go automate that I won't have to do, won't 413 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,960 have to spend as much time on next week or next month or 414 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,519 whatever, right? 415 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,440 Yeah, so I naturally do that, but we all encounter those 416 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,799 situations where either we run into this all the time and we 417 00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:28,880 want to do something about it, or everyone is talking about it, 418 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:33,440 like everyone is talking about this one problem, and we're in a 419 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,799 place now to where literally anyone can go and solve for 420 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:41,360 those niche problems and productize it. 421 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,120 And whether you're in it to make you know a million bucks, or 422 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,519 whether you're in it just to be a good member of the community 423 00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:48,559 is almost irrelevant. 424 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,559 Yeah, we can do that, yeah. 425 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,240 SPEAKER_00: The the the friction from oh, I have an idea to I I 426 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,160 can produce an output is just it's nothing now, yeah. 427 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,599 Which I I think is is freeing in a way, but it's also like, oh, I 428 00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:05,759 I don't even know where to get started, I can do anything. 429 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,160 And whenever I found myself in that, it's just you know, when I 430 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,240 was trying to learn first for the first week, I was like, I 431 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,000 don't even know where to start. 432 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,120 But then the principle I come back to is like just build 433 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:22,400 something because whatever you build first, and this goes for 434 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,079 any tool, it's gonna be terrible. 435 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,000 You're gonna come back to it like a week later and be like, 436 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:30,799 who was who was the moment that did this? 437 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,559 Like, what were they thinking? 438 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,279 This is messy, like who wrote this terrible code? 439 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:36,880 Yeah, oh signed by me. 440 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,519 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 441 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:39,360 Uh it's in my GitHub review. 442 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:39,839 Yeah, okay. 443 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,480 SPEAKER_00: But then the I think the other thing is like the 444 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,759 learning loop is accelerated. 445 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:50,160 Like, I started learning cursor about a month ago, and then you 446 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,599 know, started building some skills. 447 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,839 I went back last week and I was like, let me take what I've 448 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:57,599 learned and build those fresh. 449 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,000 Yeah. 450 00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:00,960 And it's not like anything else where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna 451 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,920 rebuild this from scratch, where I have to put that same time 452 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,240 again. 453 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,599 It's like, oh, let me take this rough thing and like turn it 454 00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:10,880 into a relative diamond. 455 00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:11,279 Yeah. 456 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:14,480 Um And that I think is a really interesting piece too. 457 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:18,079 It's like learning doesn't not really cost you anything because 458 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,200 you can just learn and iterate, learn and iterate, learn and 459 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,559 iterate, because that's that's where you're gonna actually 460 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:25,200 learn. 461 00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:26,480 Like, yeah, courses are great. 462 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:30,720 Like take all the courses you can, but build, build them 463 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,480 perfectly and come back and fix it. 464 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,480 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I totally agree. 465 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,440 Interesting. 466 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,680 Um I do want to caveat that a little bit. 467 00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:43,279 Like, you know, if you're if you're out there and you're 468 00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:46,160 going and building a product and you're vibe coding and all that 469 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,360 kind of stuff, I mean, unless you we're not at that stage now 470 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:56,640 where you can just like build it in lovable, put it out there, 471 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,079 and like be a SaaS founder. 472 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,440 I mean, kind of, but yeah, but that's your prototype. 473 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,160 I think we you know, people talk about engineering being dead or 474 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:08,480 whatever. 475 00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:10,720 It's it's not, it's like it's shifting. 476 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,120 You still need security, you still need like all this stuff 477 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:19,200 on the back end to really manage, you know, uh an app and 478 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,160 all that kind of stuff. 479 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,599 But when it comes to like building yourself tools and 480 00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:26,160 building yourself stuff, like that's a no-brainer. 481 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:27,920 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, a lot of what I build 482 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,920 is individual tool tools or team tools, or uh like the rough 483 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,880 prototype too is a great thing where it's like, hey, instead of 484 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,440 me trying to describe this feature, let me build what it 485 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,319 could look like. 486 00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:45,599 Because then I think folks are also much better at reacting to 487 00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:48,640 something they can see and interact with than something 488 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,400 that they just have to like imagine in their head. 489 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,200 SPEAKER_01: How cool would it be if you um were putting in a 490 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,920 feature request for your product team and you like vive-coded a 491 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,160 prototype or even some screens. 492 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,839 SPEAKER_00: I I could tell you how cool it is because that 493 00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:02,640 happens regularly. 494 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,640 Like I see some a lot of like a lot of folks just do that, and 495 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,880 they're like, here's how it could look and feel. 496 00:26:09,039 --> 00:26:09,440 Yeah. 497 00:26:09,599 --> 00:26:13,920 Um, and you you you see the build teams also react to that, 498 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,319 and they are also doing exactly the same thing, too. 499 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,680 So um, it is a whole new language of communicating for 500 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:19,759 us. 501 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:20,160 Right. 502 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,279 I don't just have to tell, I can show. 503 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:25,440 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally. 504 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,360 Um, one of the things that you were talking about earlier is 505 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,599 just like learning stuff, and um I don't know if you've had this 506 00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:38,880 same experience, but Notebook LM has been a huge thing for me 507 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:44,799 because if you're not hip to this, like you just put anything 508 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:08,789 and everything about a topic into it, you know, YouTube 509 00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:15,190 videos, PDFs, docs, copied and pasted something, you give it a 510 00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:18,310 bunch of sources, and you can output these really rich 511 00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:20,870 learning materials for yourself. 512 00:29:21,509 --> 00:29:24,630 Like videos and the infographics and all this kind of stuff. 513 00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:26,549 It's unbelievable. 514 00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:29,110 SPEAKER_00: It it I think it is the most slept-on tool. 515 00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:29,670 Yeah. 516 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:31,670 SPEAKER_01: Like it should be the one it's the most 517 00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:33,110 talked-about and slept-on tool. 518 00:29:33,509 --> 00:29:36,310 Like everybody talks about it, but then we quickly forget about 519 00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:37,830 it, and so it's still slept on. 520 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:38,150 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 521 00:29:38,390 --> 00:29:40,710 And it's one of those things, too, what I what I find myself 522 00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:45,110 doing with it is I have a lot of these projects where I'm like 523 00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:48,470 trying to bring a ton of stuff together that usually it's 524 00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:51,670 coming from a little bit of like ADHD, like disparate fields. 525 00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:55,350 Like, oh, I got some stuff from like my NBA field, some stuff 526 00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:58,549 from like technology, some stuff from just you know, books and 527 00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:59,670 stuff I've read. 528 00:29:59,910 --> 00:30:03,029 And I bring it all into there, and I'm like, I know there's 529 00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:04,230 threats here connecting this. 530 00:30:04,390 --> 00:30:06,070 Let's talk about how this is connected. 531 00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:09,590 The other thing I really like with that is when they make the 532 00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:15,029 podcasts and when they make the videos, they use really 533 00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:17,910 interesting combinations of words that are not in the source 534 00:30:17,910 --> 00:30:18,549 material. 535 00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:24,070 That I'm like, oh, you took that concept and like gave me the 536 00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:25,430 language to talk about it. 537 00:30:25,910 --> 00:30:30,230 And when you also start tweaking the outputs of particularly the 538 00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:33,350 podcasts, yeah, um, like make them a little bit more 539 00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:37,830 argumentative, or try to use really good catchy language in 540 00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:42,710 here, you start to see uh things emerge. 541 00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:47,350 And I think it's another kind of trend in there where uh voice 542 00:30:48,150 --> 00:30:54,150 and like uh voice as a context tool is becoming really uh even 543 00:30:54,150 --> 00:30:56,630 more recognized and powerful in this AI space. 544 00:30:56,870 --> 00:31:00,470 And those little podcasts are like I I pull out transcripts 545 00:31:00,470 --> 00:31:03,350 from them too, and I'm like, how can I bring that into the rest 546 00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:03,830 of this? 547 00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:08,789 Um because there's a lot of unlock in there, like bringing 548 00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:09,990 my ideas together, right? 549 00:31:10,150 --> 00:31:10,549 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 550 00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:13,910 And it's a cool way of summarizing something and then 551 00:31:13,910 --> 00:31:17,509 using that output as context for something else, yeah. 552 00:31:17,990 --> 00:31:21,029 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it it's wild, and it's one of those 553 00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:21,509 things too. 554 00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:25,590 I'm um thinking about like, oh, what is what is gonna look like 555 00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:26,390 for education? 556 00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:31,190 Like if I had this set of tools available to me when I was in 557 00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:34,630 high school or college, one, I'm really glad I didn't because I 558 00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:36,950 feel like I would just never get anything done. 559 00:31:37,509 --> 00:31:41,509 Um and two, I don't think that the schools and universities 560 00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:47,350 have quite figured out how to give them the right power 561 00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:49,430 without letting them run the whole thing. 562 00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:49,750 Right. 563 00:31:49,910 --> 00:31:52,549 I think that like the best example I've seen is like we're 564 00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:54,070 gonna evaluate the AI's output. 565 00:31:54,150 --> 00:31:58,870 I'm like, that's the way to do it, but the rest of school is 566 00:31:58,870 --> 00:32:01,430 still around knowledge regurgitation. 567 00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:05,590 SPEAKER_01: I actually wanted to ask you about customer education 568 00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:07,990 specifically because that's your wheelhouse. 569 00:32:08,230 --> 00:32:15,029 Um and we've had, you know, I think it's probably been a 570 00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:18,710 couple years since I saw the first neat trick of Hey Gen 571 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:21,590 being able to translate videos on the fly. 572 00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:24,870 And you know, we've had these little things here and there 573 00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:29,990 that have helped with you know accessibility and all of that. 574 00:32:30,710 --> 00:32:34,870 Um LMSs are a dime a dozen. 575 00:32:36,390 --> 00:32:40,789 And I I wonder what you think the future is for customer 576 00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:44,630 education, whether it's still this kind of siloed, you put 577 00:32:44,630 --> 00:32:48,150 these videos in the course and then you do a thing, and then or 578 00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:54,150 is it like we're building this stuff from scratch in a in a in 579 00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:57,750 in more of a web-based experience, or like what does 580 00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:58,470 that look like? 581 00:32:58,870 --> 00:33:01,670 SPEAKER_00: I I think, and I'm gonna hedge a little bit here, 582 00:33:01,750 --> 00:33:05,190 uh-huh, because predicting the future is sort of messy, but I 583 00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:09,110 think it's gonna be a little bit of everything, and I think 584 00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:11,750 you're gonna see a whole spectrum of things where it's 585 00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:16,230 like when it needs to be 100% right, or there's a really high 586 00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:19,910 value, you'll probably still have a fairly like concentrated 587 00:33:19,910 --> 00:33:21,990 human producing or compliance, for instance. 588 00:33:22,390 --> 00:33:25,190 Compliance, it's like it's still gonna be pretty tight on the 589 00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:29,750 human rails, but I think you're also gonna see things where, and 590 00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:34,870 we're already seeing this, where the AI has been fed the content 591 00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:37,190 in a way it can understand and put together. 592 00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:40,150 And then you're gonna see maybe like you know, embedded chatbots 593 00:33:40,150 --> 00:33:43,350 where you can just chat about it, or almost like an ambient 594 00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:46,230 watching where it's like, it looks like you're struggling. 595 00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:48,150 Here's some just in time education. 596 00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:51,110 I think that's a really exciting way to think about it. 597 00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:54,390 But then I think the other piece, too, with customer 598 00:33:54,390 --> 00:34:01,830 education is having folks with expertise in customer education 599 00:34:01,830 --> 00:34:04,549 be the ones designing and working with the interfaces to 600 00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:08,309 make it so the learning is embedded within it. 601 00:34:08,469 --> 00:34:10,630 So UX design meets customer education. 602 00:34:11,429 --> 00:34:14,070 I think that's gonna be a lot of emerging. 603 00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:16,949 And I think there's still a lot of need for people who can 604 00:34:16,949 --> 00:34:19,750 explain this is how you teach a concept. 605 00:34:20,070 --> 00:34:21,909 Um, because it comes back to that same, you know, 606 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:26,710 craftsperson idea of a really, really skilled instructional 607 00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:30,630 designer is going to get a better course out of course 608 00:34:30,630 --> 00:34:31,349 creation tools. 609 00:34:31,429 --> 00:34:31,750 Yeah. 610 00:34:31,989 --> 00:34:35,509 Um, and one thing I really like, uh, I've tried a lot with PARTA, 611 00:34:35,670 --> 00:34:38,309 which is you know, course creator uh tool. 612 00:34:38,469 --> 00:34:41,029 Um, for those who are unfamiliar, it's basically like 613 00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:43,110 Rise, but it's better. 614 00:34:43,590 --> 00:34:48,309 Um But we we talked a lot about their AI course creator tool. 615 00:34:48,469 --> 00:34:51,590 Um, and one thing I really like with the language in all these 616 00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:55,029 discussions is they landed on calling the output a draft. 617 00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:55,909 Cool. 618 00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:59,590 And it's like that is a very interesting thing, one because 619 00:34:59,590 --> 00:35:01,509 it just shows like respect for the craft. 620 00:35:01,989 --> 00:35:06,869 It's like it knows it's not going to be ready to publish. 621 00:35:06,949 --> 00:35:08,789 Yeah, it's not promising that, right? 622 00:35:09,029 --> 00:35:11,670 And I think that's where I'm I think that's where education is 623 00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:15,670 gonna be is these tools are gonna create drafts, and then 624 00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:17,989 the job of the customer education professional is to put 625 00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:19,269 in that last mile. 626 00:35:19,509 --> 00:35:21,590 Where, which surfaces do we put it on? 627 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:23,110 What formats do we do? 628 00:35:23,429 --> 00:35:24,710 What do we have to record? 629 00:35:24,869 --> 00:35:27,190 Like, what do we have to make a human video on? 630 00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:28,949 How do I teach this live? 631 00:35:29,429 --> 00:35:31,590 I think that's the other frontier of customer education. 632 00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:37,029 I think as good as any asynchronous tool can be, uh, 633 00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:42,150 like I still sometimes fly out to a company and do like I'm in 634 00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:42,710 the same room with you. 635 00:35:42,949 --> 00:35:44,949 In-person training, we're going to look at the computer together 636 00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:45,509 for sure. 637 00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:52,469 And it's like that seems silly in some ways, but also there's 638 00:35:52,469 --> 00:35:56,070 such a value of it where we're in that same space, we're 639 00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:57,429 solving the same problem. 640 00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:59,829 That's where I see a lot of customer education dog. 641 00:36:00,309 --> 00:36:04,630 SPEAKER_01: But it's like it's like superpowering the Khan 642 00:36:04,789 --> 00:36:08,789 Academy thing where you know we have all these tools where 643 00:36:08,789 --> 00:36:12,789 instructional designers can throw these things together very 644 00:36:12,789 --> 00:36:17,750 quickly and efficiently, and then but that then leaves more 645 00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:21,429 time for actual customer face time, you know. 646 00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:25,909 Um, and I'm I'm all I'm with you on the on-site. 647 00:36:26,070 --> 00:36:29,909 Like face-to-face time is so important, and that's not going 648 00:36:29,909 --> 00:36:30,309 anywhere. 649 00:36:30,549 --> 00:36:30,869 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 650 00:36:31,029 --> 00:36:35,829 I mean, the other major factor with all this is uh okay, we've 651 00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:40,069 got developers with all these tools are developing at an 652 00:36:40,069 --> 00:36:40,869 absurd rate. 653 00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:43,829 I mean, product changes, product features are coming out super 654 00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:44,069 fast. 655 00:36:44,149 --> 00:36:46,469 Yeah, the existing issue already for customer success, customer 656 00:36:46,469 --> 00:36:48,549 education is we can't keep up with it. 657 00:36:48,629 --> 00:36:53,109 Yeah, these tools are gonna let you keep up with it and build 658 00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:54,229 high quality content. 659 00:36:54,309 --> 00:36:58,069 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is there a good I mean, it you you don't 660 00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:58,949 have to name names. 661 00:36:59,029 --> 00:37:02,389 Okay, we'll talk about later, but if you don't want to, but 662 00:37:02,469 --> 00:37:10,549 like that specific problem of you have version whatever of 663 00:37:10,549 --> 00:37:14,389 your SaaS app, and then a week later you're like, you know, 664 00:37:14,629 --> 00:37:18,069 three micro versions later, and a bunch of stuff has changed. 665 00:37:18,149 --> 00:37:22,709 Like, is there something good off the shelf right now that 666 00:37:22,709 --> 00:37:25,749 tracks that and helps you create the content, whether it be 667 00:37:25,749 --> 00:37:29,509 knowledge-based articles or courses to or updating, you 668 00:37:29,509 --> 00:37:33,429 know, courseware, or is that still kind of I haven't seen 669 00:37:33,429 --> 00:37:34,309 anything off the shelf. 670 00:37:34,389 --> 00:37:37,429 SPEAKER_00: What I've done before and what I've seen done, 671 00:37:37,509 --> 00:37:42,709 and it's actually pretty doable at most companies, is you look 672 00:37:42,709 --> 00:37:47,509 where your developers are pushing their commits and have 673 00:37:47,509 --> 00:37:51,509 an AI agent or something tracking that because then you 674 00:37:51,509 --> 00:37:55,269 are getting what is different, whether they've told you or not. 675 00:37:55,669 --> 00:37:59,429 Um, and also like where are the designers putting their PRDs? 676 00:37:59,589 --> 00:38:04,149 Like you have all that context, and with these AI tools, like 677 00:38:04,229 --> 00:38:07,189 you don't have to be actively watching it yourself. 678 00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:10,949 Like set up where it should be, set up like understand how 679 00:38:10,949 --> 00:38:14,309 engineering a product builds things, watch what the 680 00:38:14,309 --> 00:38:17,749 engineering managers are watching, and then apply your 681 00:38:17,749 --> 00:38:18,629 own filter to it. 682 00:38:18,789 --> 00:38:22,869 So, hey, every time you know a commit gets pushed through, 683 00:38:23,189 --> 00:38:25,669 check to see which surfaces it touches. 684 00:38:25,749 --> 00:38:30,549 And I also would map okay, which surfaces do my courses cover? 685 00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:33,829 Like my basics course covers this surface, this surface, and 686 00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:34,389 this surface. 687 00:38:34,549 --> 00:38:38,389 If anything changes there, depending on the level of it, I 688 00:38:38,389 --> 00:38:39,349 have to change it out. 689 00:38:39,429 --> 00:38:42,309 Yeah, and I think also just building your courses to be more 690 00:38:42,309 --> 00:38:43,109 resilient to that. 691 00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:45,829 Um, and this is again another principle. 692 00:38:45,909 --> 00:38:47,750 It's what's not going to change. 693 00:38:48,069 --> 00:38:48,629 Exactly. 694 00:38:48,869 --> 00:38:52,949 Uh, because it's like, okay, I know I'm gonna have a home page 695 00:38:52,949 --> 00:38:53,269 image. 696 00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:55,429 Yeah, like this is what the homepage looks like. 697 00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:58,149 I know I need to keep that up to date, yep. 698 00:38:58,309 --> 00:39:00,710 But I know there's always a consistent spot I can get it. 699 00:39:00,789 --> 00:39:05,669 So like that's the other thing is like be as lazy in a way as 700 00:39:05,669 --> 00:39:08,949 you can't anticipate like this is going to change, this is not 701 00:39:08,949 --> 00:39:09,589 going to change. 702 00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:12,389 If it changes, this is where I'm gonna take care of it and 703 00:39:12,389 --> 00:39:12,869 automate that. 704 00:39:13,109 --> 00:39:18,389 SPEAKER_01: It's that age-old thing where you consciously have 705 00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:24,069 the voiceover omit the bit about the button being in the top 706 00:39:24,069 --> 00:39:27,509 right, because if you do that, I guarantee you the button's gonna 707 00:39:27,509 --> 00:39:28,869 move to the bottom right, you know. 708 00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:30,069 Oh, yeah, exactly. 709 00:39:30,309 --> 00:39:31,989 SPEAKER_00: Well, and and I think the other thing we're 710 00:39:31,989 --> 00:39:35,829 seeing though is like tools like uh Cluso and Descript and all 711 00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:38,789 these video editors, even like a huge Clueso user. 712 00:39:38,869 --> 00:39:40,549 Yeah, they're so good, they're so good. 713 00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:43,190 They're like, yeah, also just the nicest. 714 00:39:45,029 --> 00:39:49,109 Yeah, but it's like you just see, oh, I don't have to worry 715 00:39:49,109 --> 00:39:52,629 about getting it exactly right because if it changes, yeah, 716 00:39:52,789 --> 00:39:55,989 it's not like I have to spend 10 hours in the like recording 717 00:39:55,989 --> 00:39:58,230 booth again and the edit it just to change like one thing. 718 00:39:58,309 --> 00:40:00,309 It's like, oh, we can change it. 719 00:40:00,389 --> 00:40:03,589 Yeah, and as even playing with a few like video production APIs 720 00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:07,509 over the weekend, it's like, oh, I can programmatically just tell 721 00:40:07,509 --> 00:40:10,949 Claude to tell me to change it, to tell my video editor to 722 00:40:10,949 --> 00:40:11,349 change it. 723 00:40:11,429 --> 00:40:14,710 Yeah, it's like that's just feels like the future. 724 00:40:14,869 --> 00:40:16,149 It's mind-boggling, yeah. 725 00:40:16,309 --> 00:40:17,509 Mind boggling. 726 00:40:17,909 --> 00:40:20,789 SPEAKER_01: Well, um, we're gonna start rounding out the 727 00:40:20,789 --> 00:40:23,429 convo, although I think we could probably stay here for like 728 00:40:23,669 --> 00:40:24,629 freaking hours. 729 00:40:24,789 --> 00:40:27,909 I mean, I mean, yeah, every time you and I talk, it's just like, 730 00:40:27,989 --> 00:40:29,029 well, have you seen whatever? 731 00:40:29,669 --> 00:40:32,309 Yeah, we haven't even opened the laptops yet. 732 00:40:34,149 --> 00:40:37,750 Um I I would love this, might be putting you on the spot a little 733 00:40:37,750 --> 00:40:43,669 bit, but um there's like I I'm a fan of good better best. 734 00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:50,549 And for someone who's uh, you know, who's into wanting to make 735 00:40:50,549 --> 00:40:54,949 their own tools, you know, I I kind of have my own ecosystem of 736 00:40:54,949 --> 00:40:57,669 good, better, best or whatever, but I would love to hear from 737 00:40:57,669 --> 00:41:02,549 you, like, okay, you're a your basic, you're you're kicking the 738 00:41:02,549 --> 00:41:05,429 tires on vibe coding stuff and trying to get into it. 739 00:41:05,509 --> 00:41:06,789 Like, what does that look like? 740 00:41:07,029 --> 00:41:09,829 What is level two and what does level three look like? 741 00:41:10,149 --> 00:41:13,909 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think the good is actually something we 742 00:41:13,989 --> 00:41:15,349 tried for the first time this weekend. 743 00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:18,629 Uh Google just released this new thing, I think it's called 744 00:41:18,629 --> 00:41:19,269 Sketch. 745 00:41:19,429 --> 00:41:22,230 Yeah, it's it's it's really good. 746 00:41:22,389 --> 00:41:27,109 It lets you prototype apps and websites, like web apps. 747 00:41:27,269 --> 00:41:30,230 It's like that's very, very well done. 748 00:41:30,389 --> 00:41:33,269 And their documentation is also really good. 749 00:41:33,509 --> 00:41:35,909 And what I like about that documentation in particular is 750 00:41:36,149 --> 00:41:37,109 it's opinionated. 751 00:41:37,269 --> 00:41:41,029 It tells you this is what we actually recommend and do, and 752 00:41:41,029 --> 00:41:41,909 here's other ways to do it. 753 00:41:41,989 --> 00:41:44,230 But like here's a golden path, which I think if you're just 754 00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:46,149 getting started out, like what a great way to do it. 755 00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:48,389 Yeah, and then they also have their AI studio, which is kind 756 00:41:48,389 --> 00:41:50,230 of that like next step up. 757 00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:53,029 Yeah, but there's a ton of like free credits with that, which 758 00:41:53,029 --> 00:41:55,109 I'm like, okay, if you're dipping your toe in and you like 759 00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:57,589 you could try it without really having any sort of commit. 760 00:41:57,750 --> 00:42:00,629 SPEAKER_01: And like the Google ecosystem is so good for 761 00:42:00,629 --> 00:42:02,149 beginners, it's so good. 762 00:42:02,389 --> 00:42:04,389 SPEAKER_00: And also like notebook on, like we talked 763 00:42:04,389 --> 00:42:08,309 about earlier, like use that because you can build pseudo 764 00:42:08,469 --> 00:42:12,230 apps with that kind of uh piece there. 765 00:42:12,549 --> 00:42:16,710 Um I would also be remiss to not say Zapier because I'm like and 766 00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:18,389 I'm not trying to sell Zapier, I just love Zapier. 767 00:42:18,549 --> 00:42:18,710 Totally. 768 00:42:18,789 --> 00:42:20,149 So it's like yeah, that that's there. 769 00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:23,109 Like there's so many cool things that I like, I spend most of my 770 00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:24,469 day just building with Zapier based. 771 00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:27,589 So I'm like, okay, I'm not trying to show, but I also love 772 00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:27,750 it. 773 00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:28,069 Yeah. 774 00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:34,469 Um, and then I think the kind of the next level up is even just 775 00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:37,269 using like those chat-based tools, like just using plain 776 00:42:37,269 --> 00:42:41,509 clot or plain chat to D or Plain Gemini to say, help me design 777 00:42:41,509 --> 00:42:41,829 this. 778 00:42:42,069 --> 00:42:45,829 Um, so like before they started building, it's like, help me 779 00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:46,789 code a website. 780 00:42:46,869 --> 00:42:49,349 I'm gonna have to put those pieces together and push them up 781 00:42:49,349 --> 00:42:49,989 to my GitHub. 782 00:42:50,869 --> 00:42:54,789 But like help me understand how to build these things and using 783 00:42:54,789 --> 00:42:55,349 that language. 784 00:42:55,509 --> 00:42:56,309 It's like, cool. 785 00:42:56,389 --> 00:42:58,230 Now I'm gonna get into a little bit more of the mechanics, 786 00:42:58,549 --> 00:42:58,629 right? 787 00:42:58,949 --> 00:43:01,989 Yeah, and then I think the kind of the premiere, and I can be 788 00:43:02,069 --> 00:43:03,109 seeing it, you know where this is going. 789 00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:06,549 It's it's clawed code, it's codex, it's cursor, it's that 790 00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:06,949 ilk. 791 00:43:07,429 --> 00:43:09,029 Antigravity, antigravity, yeah. 792 00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:16,309 Where you are taking that powerful brain of the AI tool of 793 00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:16,789 your choice. 794 00:43:16,869 --> 00:43:20,149 Yeah, you're giving it files in context. 795 00:43:20,389 --> 00:43:24,469 Um, another trick I'm doing this with cursors, MCPs. 796 00:43:24,549 --> 00:43:29,989 If you are not using MCPs, it they are the most slept-on thing 797 00:43:29,989 --> 00:43:30,549 out there. 798 00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:34,469 Uh again, Zapier, I'm biased on it, but it's like, oh, cool. 799 00:43:34,549 --> 00:43:36,549 Yeah, like that's 90% of my tools. 800 00:43:36,629 --> 00:43:37,509 I just connect with that. 801 00:43:37,909 --> 00:43:41,349 Um, but then like I connected the Chrome DevTools MCP. 802 00:43:41,989 --> 00:43:45,669 My cursor is able to browse the web, pull down websites, and do 803 00:43:45,669 --> 00:43:46,149 things for me. 804 00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:51,109 So it's like that whole set of tools together lets you output 805 00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:53,109 things that are unthinkable. 806 00:43:53,269 --> 00:43:57,269 Yeah, I had a project I was working on uh last week where 807 00:43:57,750 --> 00:44:01,429 I've had this idea in my head for probably two years now. 808 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:06,069 I sat down, had a few hours just chatting with it, went, took a 809 00:44:06,069 --> 00:44:09,509 swim, came back, and was like, okay, I thought some more on it. 810 00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:12,789 Here's some more pieces, here's like the web framework I want to 811 00:44:12,789 --> 00:44:12,949 use. 812 00:44:13,029 --> 00:44:15,750 I was like, use Tailwind CSS because I wanted to look pretty. 813 00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:18,469 Here's the color scheme I want it in, and here's how I want it 814 00:44:18,469 --> 00:44:19,109 organized. 815 00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:25,429 It built this entire knowledge base and website and app around 816 00:44:25,429 --> 00:44:27,750 an idea I've had sitting in my head. 817 00:44:27,909 --> 00:44:28,309 Cool. 818 00:44:28,549 --> 00:44:30,710 And like that was impossible. 819 00:44:30,789 --> 00:44:31,109 Yeah. 820 00:44:31,349 --> 00:44:32,230 Like even in December. 821 00:44:33,029 --> 00:44:33,349 Yeah, yeah. 822 00:44:33,429 --> 00:44:34,629 Yeah, in December, it was impossible. 823 00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:37,109 And that's, I think, the other thing too for folks who are 824 00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:39,989 like, Oh, I you know, I tried those things on like my winter 825 00:44:39,989 --> 00:44:40,309 break. 826 00:44:40,389 --> 00:44:43,909 It's the latest generation of models, and I feel like I'm 827 00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:46,949 saying this next year, have changed the game. 828 00:44:47,029 --> 00:44:47,429 Yeah. 829 00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:52,389 Where like things that would have failed, that absolutely did 830 00:44:52,389 --> 00:44:54,710 fail, yeah, with the previous models, right? 831 00:44:54,949 --> 00:44:56,149 Now just get one shot. 832 00:44:56,469 --> 00:44:59,589 Like I was like, I want to build a mobile game that helps me 833 00:44:59,750 --> 00:45:00,789 explain concepts of Zapier. 834 00:45:01,029 --> 00:45:02,069 I'm like, here's the game design. 835 00:45:02,149 --> 00:45:04,710 Like I had that all written out, it was very well written. 836 00:45:04,949 --> 00:45:08,309 Every time I ran it through like the highest end models, I spent 837 00:45:08,389 --> 00:45:11,750 like 20 bucks of credits, which is a lot of credits. 838 00:45:11,989 --> 00:45:13,829 Um failed. 839 00:45:13,989 --> 00:45:14,309 Yeah. 840 00:45:14,549 --> 00:45:17,909 I put it through the new Chat GPT in February. 841 00:45:17,989 --> 00:45:18,389 Yeah. 842 00:45:18,629 --> 00:45:19,269 One shot. 843 00:45:19,429 --> 00:45:19,829 Really? 844 00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:20,389 Yep. 845 00:45:20,469 --> 00:45:20,949 How about that? 846 00:45:21,109 --> 00:45:25,750 And it was like, okay, that is really changing how I think 847 00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:26,389 about these tools. 848 00:45:26,949 --> 00:45:29,109 We have reached kind of that next level. 849 00:45:29,509 --> 00:45:31,509 Um, so that that I think is super exciting. 850 00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:34,069 So that's kind of the good, better, best is I like Google 851 00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:38,309 Google set of tools and then play with the models and have 852 00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:41,109 them tell you how to build stuff manually and then get in these 853 00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:41,509 frameworks. 854 00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:43,509 SPEAKER_01: We're we're gonna close out on that one because 855 00:45:43,669 --> 00:45:51,750 like the the thing that people sleep on is it will tell you in 856 00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:55,269 the conversation, and in fact, by having the conversation about 857 00:45:55,589 --> 00:46:01,349 how should I do this, you are providing more context, and it's 858 00:46:01,349 --> 00:46:04,789 probably gonna lead to some follow-up questions and some 859 00:46:04,789 --> 00:46:08,149 clarifications that come out of that that you wouldn't have had 860 00:46:08,469 --> 00:46:09,429 otherwise. 861 00:46:09,989 --> 00:46:15,669 And if you're actively building stuff or prompting or doing 862 00:46:15,669 --> 00:46:20,710 whatever, like ask it to gut check itself, ask it to gut 863 00:46:20,789 --> 00:46:26,149 check you, because I guarantee you it's gonna come up with oh, 864 00:46:26,389 --> 00:46:29,589 we could probably do it this other way too, or this might be 865 00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:30,309 a little bit better. 866 00:46:30,389 --> 00:46:33,349 You know, the first shot isn't always the right thing to do. 867 00:46:33,429 --> 00:46:35,669 And a lot of people just blindly go through and go, Oh, yeah, 868 00:46:35,750 --> 00:46:35,989 yeah, yeah. 869 00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:37,669 SPEAKER_00: Never never trust it and like never trust your own 870 00:46:37,669 --> 00:46:38,309 outputs, too. 871 00:46:38,389 --> 00:46:40,149 It's like you've got it, you've got this great tool. 872 00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:42,949 Uh there's like that whole Ted Lasso, like be curious, not 873 00:46:42,949 --> 00:46:43,429 judgmental. 874 00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:46,069 Like that is what you have to have in your brain when you're 875 00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:46,710 using AI. 876 00:46:46,869 --> 00:46:49,909 And uh, one last kind of tip for the like anyone who's listening, 877 00:46:49,989 --> 00:46:58,629 it's like it feels wild, but I almost never type to my AI tools 878 00:46:58,629 --> 00:46:58,869 anymore. 879 00:46:59,029 --> 00:47:02,069 I just use like you can use the built-in recorder tool, I use 880 00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:02,789 Whisperflow. 881 00:47:03,509 --> 00:47:07,909 But when you are talking to these AI tools directly, instead 882 00:47:07,909 --> 00:47:11,109 of trying to type it out, you're gonna get so much more context 883 00:47:11,109 --> 00:47:11,349 in. 884 00:47:11,429 --> 00:47:13,829 And they also just handle stream of consciousness. 885 00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:17,829 You you do not have to like prompt engineer anymore because 886 00:47:18,149 --> 00:47:20,469 by telling it exactly what you want, you're putting those 887 00:47:20,469 --> 00:47:21,989 elements of prompt engineering in there. 888 00:47:22,149 --> 00:47:23,589 It will parse it well enough. 889 00:47:23,669 --> 00:47:24,149 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 890 00:47:24,389 --> 00:47:26,629 SPEAKER_00: And it's a game changer. 891 00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:28,309 It's gonna feel super weird for the first month. 892 00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:31,269 Like you will feel like crazy. 893 00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:31,509 Yeah. 894 00:47:31,669 --> 00:47:33,989 When my yeah, my wife walked into my office and she was like, 895 00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:36,869 Who are you talking to in that way? 896 00:47:37,909 --> 00:47:39,589 I was like, Oh, I'm talking to my AI. 897 00:47:39,669 --> 00:47:41,589 She's like, Oh, the robots again. 898 00:47:41,829 --> 00:47:49,349 Uh, but it's like it completely changes how these models work 899 00:47:49,429 --> 00:47:49,669 for me. 900 00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:54,149 Yeah, because it's like I'm having a conversation with a 901 00:47:54,149 --> 00:47:54,789 coworker. 902 00:47:54,869 --> 00:47:58,629 Yeah, I am not typing commands to a computer. 903 00:47:58,789 --> 00:47:59,109 Yeah. 904 00:47:59,349 --> 00:48:02,949 And that that switches the brain in a way that I think is 905 00:48:02,949 --> 00:48:03,269 powerful. 906 00:48:03,509 --> 00:48:04,710 SPEAKER_01: I agree completely. 907 00:48:05,190 --> 00:48:09,589 Well, dude, it's always a uh an unlock for me when I chat with 908 00:48:09,589 --> 00:48:11,589 you, and I super appreciate it. 909 00:48:11,669 --> 00:48:14,949 And I think we should just have a recurring like invite on the 910 00:48:14,949 --> 00:48:17,989 calendar because selfishly I learn a lot when I talk to you. 911 00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:21,109 But um, yeah, it's awesome having you back. 912 00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:22,710 And maybe you'll be our first. 913 00:48:22,949 --> 00:48:24,869 I don't think there's any three timers. 914 00:48:25,029 --> 00:48:25,349 Ooh. 915 00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:26,549 Maybe you'll be our first three. 916 00:48:27,029 --> 00:48:28,710 SPEAKER_00: Do you start getting like the robes like SNL? 917 00:48:28,789 --> 00:48:30,230 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll do a purple jacket for it. 918 00:48:30,389 --> 00:48:30,710 Perfect. 919 00:48:30,789 --> 00:48:31,750 SPEAKER_00: There we go. 920 00:48:33,509 --> 00:48:34,469 Thank you for joining, Eric. 921 00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:35,190 This is great. 922 00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:36,230 I uh appreciate it. 923 00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:38,309 And like, hey, when in texts? 924 00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:39,989 SPEAKER_01: Hey, in person. 925 00:48:40,230 --> 00:48:40,549 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 926 00:48:40,869 --> 00:48:41,269 Amazing. 927 00:48:41,429 --> 00:48:42,069 Thanks, I hope. 928 00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:42,469 SPEAKER_01: Thanks. 929 00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:45,589 Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Digital CX 930 00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:46,069 Podcast. 931 00:48:46,149 --> 00:48:49,429 If you like what we're doing, uh consider leaving us a review on 932 00:48:49,429 --> 00:48:51,190 your podcast platform of choice. 933 00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:53,669 If you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment down below. 934 00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:57,589 It really helps us to grow and provide value to a broader 935 00:48:57,589 --> 00:49:00,469 audience and get more information about the show and 936 00:49:00,469 --> 00:49:02,469 some of the other things that we're doing at 937 00:49:02,469 --> 00:49:04,549 digitalcustomersuccess.com. 938 00:49:04,629 --> 00:49:05,829 I'm Alex Drogovic. 939 00:49:05,989 --> 00:49:06,710 Thanks so much for listening. 940 00:49:06,869 --> 00:49:08,549 We'll talk to you next week.