Episode 60 - Leading From The Front Row with Amy Turner

Welcome to the Centre for Army Leadership podcast. I'm your host, Lieutenant Colonel David Faulkner, heading up the British Army Centre for Army Leadership. And today's guest is Amy Turner, a former England Red Roses Rugby Union player representing England 59 times across three World Cups and seven Six Nation Grand Slam victories. Domestically, Amy has spent over 35 years playing rugby before joining the national team coaching set up in 2018 as England Women's Under 20s head coach. Between 2022 and 2025, Amy joined the Harlequins coaching staff having played there all her professional career, first as women's head coach and then as the Men's academy pathway coach. Following Harlequins, Amy has taken up a role with Rosalind park as their attack coach and, and she also coaches Hampton School and she remains linked to high performance coaching and leadership in her daily career. It's a great pleasure to have Amy on the podcast who will talk about her leadership journey as a player and a coach and some of the challenges she has faced as a woman into the world of rugby, a very male dominated sport. We very much look forward to hearing what Amy has to say. Good morning Amy. Great to have you on the Centre for Army Leadership podcast. I suppose my first question is relating to your role as an England player with 59 caps and as a coach. And I just want to sort of, if you could expand on how your understanding of leadership has evolved across the roles as a player and then a coach. Hello. It's a really good question. As a player I was so instinctive, passionate, wore my heart on my sleeve and as you saw me, is how I came. And I had a lot, a lot of internal drive that didn't need a lot of external support. I was very focused on wanting, wanting to be the best that I could be as a player. But I was obsessed by the game. So for me it came very naturally as a player, just to be at the top of my game, working hard to continue to be at the top of my game as a coach, that completely flipped on its head. I think I was naively sort of confident in my ability to coach and my ability to be at the top of the game very quickly. And with that comes a real realization of your pitfalls, your self awareness, your ability to understand others and how that impacts you. But also again, seeing the game from lots of different perspective and being able to think more on a broader space rather than what my role is as a player. You've got to think of the bigger picture and those were huge areas for me of learning through My first couple of years as a coach, and it's definitely shaped how I want to progress, where I want to progress as a coach and. And essentially take what I've done as a player, but also evolve that into something different as a coach. Did you have, like, any role models that you, you know, leadership role models in either the sort of playing or the coaching roles that you sort of looked up to, to sort of learn from in terms of. Particularly in terms of leadership, but also the sort of coaching side of things as well? Yeah, there was an easy one for me and I think about. And they were both captains and they were both international captains that I heavily looked up to as a player. One was with me at Wasps when I was a young player at Wasps, and that was Sude, who has, you know, progressed professionally within the rfu, was the CFO and now moved over to football and doing some incredible things within sport. Um, so she was being a huge role model as a player and as a captain of how she conducted herself was. Was huge. And then there's Jo Yapp. She was the England captain and a scrum half when I came into the England squad, which obviously was my position also. And I was just really happy to sit on the bench and just watch her, learn from her. And she was so supportive. There was never any competition. It was all about her showing me, you know, how to conduct yourself, how to be as an individual, and not by telling me, just by doing Joe. And I found that really fascinating because it was very different for other players in that environment who were threatened by younger players coming through. And I took a lot from her, and I still take a lot from her every day as a, you know, as a coach and what she's doing within the game. So, yeah, two females that have hugely impacted me over the years. That's great. I mean, a lot of that comes to a framework that we have that we've talked about, the leader compensy framework, which is what leaders are, their character, what leaders know their knowledge, and what leaders do, their action. And I wonder whether you in your coaching guys have taken some of that sort of knowledge and experience from your playing days and that, and look to identify leaders in any of the setups you've been coaching to sort of follow on from what you really benefited from, whether that be at Harlequins or your current role in. With Roslyn park or Hampton School. Yeah. So as a coach, you want to be able to impact people that you meet and work with, whether they're players or staff that Work alongside you. Well, for me, my, my ambition is to impact positively someone that I've worked with to either take a little golden nugget that they've learned from me or we've worked out together and they've moved on and progressed that knowledge, as have I. So that that fundamentally is my passion, is to be able to impact positively everywhere I go and leave and leave that space or that individual in a better place as a result and to identify when coming into Harlequins, I thought that I could do that just by me being me and what the experiences I had had and it was vastly different and, and I thought I had the knowledge to impact and deliver at the highest level. But what I didn't realize, there are so many other factors that impact your ability. A to stay current with the current game, but also B, deliver it to a group that engaged by you and trust you. And the real impacts around that were my ability to understand the differences between leadership coaching and management. And as a head coach, you've got to split your time between the three and you've got to work your, your working week or your priority list around what's the most important. Do I need to be on the ground with the girls or with the boys to make sure that we're impacting game model to impact performance on the Saturday or do I need to be thinking about a management element of the role? You know, are our staff where they need to be? Do we, do we have gaps in where we need to have more resource in that area? Does that have an impact on the weekend or will that have an impact longer term? Is that a priority that I need to handle now and again into leadership? How you create a culture, how you galvanize a group, how you make everyone feel valued and on the same page and aligned. And that for me was something I went in completely naive to thinking that being a really good technical coach or what I thought at the time was a really good technical coach and being able to manage all of those different things as I go and it just wasn't the case. And that huge had a huge impact in my ability of what I felt I know as a technical coach to deliver. And that was my biggest learning point from Harlequin. So if I had my time again identifying individuals that can help me and, and help the group through natural characteristics that I see within them would be something hugely that I'd look at, look at again. And that might be staffing group around, you know, getting information or understanding where the feel of the group is you know, a lot gets said in the physio room, so probably tapping into that resource a little bit more. But also senior players, their expertise, their, their experiences, their know of the, the club and the dynamic of the team, probably didn't tap into that as much as I could have. That would have helped me deliver what I wanted to deliver. So huge learnings and as a result has taken me to the journey in which I'm on now around, you know, doing my 10,000 hours of coaching, like being technically and tactically at the best, watching every element of rugby from international six nations men's to domestic men's to Dom women's to international sevens. Like watching an awful lot of rugby and digesting an awful lot of technical, tactical. Because I'm in a space now where I'm, I'm representing myself but also female coaches in a male dominated space with male players. And that I think is really important, but as a leader in a different way. And I'm excited by that. I mean you're, you're very much a trailblazer in the sort of coaching world, you know, you know, as a, as a female coach in the men's game in a similar way to, you know, Holly, Holly Davidson, which is who is now refereeing six nations games. What, what are the, what are those challenges, you know, of, of acceptance you faced as you've gone through that sort of journey? Well, I was really fortunate at Harlequins to be, to move across into the men's environment. And that was very much championed by Danny Wilson, the head coach at the time. I had known Danny from previously being coached by him and we had a good rapport. So I was championed by someone that knew me individually, trusted me as a coach and was willing to help me develop in a high performance setting. And that is, you know, that's a golden ticket. That's a lottery win for a coach wanting an opportunity and I do feel being given that opportunity, that I actually impacted the environment more so than what they expected and perhaps what I expected. You felt empowered, you know, you were given that license and support, I suppose. Well, yeah, you know, Danny got me doing a lot of little side projects around the breakdown and collision area and that really helped me technically around my development of that area as an attack coach. You look at, you know, you look at defense, so you look at the personality you got and the X factor you got and you, you create an attack around that. You probably what gets left behind is the collision element and the breakdown element. So working with Danny and Danny giving Me a lot of scope to do his analysis alongside with him and, and give me that sort of side project of learning. But also it gave, it gave me real confidence to, to know that I actually know a lot about the game technically and tactically. And I felt comfortable in conversations. I felt empowered to say what I felt was needed to say. My opinion was heard. And again, I think that's really important not only for players, but staff because they're all, you know, they're all male. It's a male group of players, it's male staff group unless you're, you know, I was the only performance female member of staff. Like there's no female coaching in that area at all in the country and the only other females are logistics or medical or lifestyle management, things like that. So for me it was huge and I think it was really important for the club to experience a female coach in that space. And I think it was a good thing. And as a result of that, I think I've now got the trust of being an attack coach alongside Stephen Neville at Roslyn park under Kieran Power, which is, you know, an opportunity again, I think that's afforded me knowing that I've had that experience in the men's program, I've had that experience in the women's program and I've got some successes in those areas. So that has been, it's been a huge process for me and I love the challenge of changing perception in the male space because I think if policy isn't going to do it, if there's no policy to make it fair for females to be in that space, then we need females going in there and changing it on the ground. Changing it by doing. Yeah, and being really good at your job. And that's what I talk about that 10,000 hours. And I talk about striving to know myself, have self awareness, but also have a real excellence and confidence and curiosity. And I'm in a really in a good space to be able to do that and pave the way for ambitious young or, you know, just female coaches in general. Wanting to be in that male space I think is important. And you know, Giselle mather did it 10, 15 years ago, London Irish as an academy coach and Louise Meadows did it as a London Scottish championship coach. But that was 2009, 10. You know, it's a lot of time passed with minimal females are in that men's space. And I think it's important, you know, that we need females in that space not only to change perspective but also to know the cutting edge of the modern game. Yeah, I mean, we've only sort of met really for the last 30 minutes. But your passion. Yeah, I know. And your drive sort of comes through and I think that's really sort of inspiring to hear and hopefully, you know, you know, female coaches out there will listen to this and take sort of heed from what you've said. I mean, you know, one of the things that struck me just by sort of, you know, in some of the questions we spoke about, you've talked about culture and the setting of culture, which is really important, you know, for the army. The bedrock of our leadership is based on foundations or pillars of values and standards. And you've mentioned trust a lot. Did you instill in your coaching or playing career a set of values and standards that you all agreed on and followed on and what were they and how fundamental were they to your success? I think as a player, I think I held myself to a standard and I think as a result of that, you organically inspire other players to hold themselves at that standard. And I was very fortunate to be in a group of players that are very talented but also very driven. And as a result, we didn't necessarily need to talk about culture or have to instill a set of principles around culture. It was very much there. We were work driven, we were ambitious and committed. And I think that in my playing career, saw the successes at the time, you know, the 2014 World cup, getting to two World cup finals consecutively before that, that was through an ethic and a culture set by players. Even as they left and new players came in, they understood what it means to be a international player and an international player alongside being a worker of some sort. It wasn't professional, so you had, you had balance, you had commitment because you needed to commit to it whilst you're doing a full time job or full time study. And that just created a natural culture that I was in. I just, you know, you act and behave in that way because it's, it was. There was no other option. You wanted to be an international player, that's what you needed to do as a coach. I think it's important to understand the team dynamic and who are, who are the, who are the individuals that keep. Are the glue to that group and utilizing them by building relationships and building trust to be able to help organically grow that within the group. Yes, you have to have a set of standards as a high performance environment, you have to have a set of standards that you adhere to. And when you get into that sort of professional sphere, you have to formalize that and that's really, really important. But I also think the, the organic culture of a group has to come from identifying players that are positive impacts to the group and empowering them and giving them confidence, but also recognizing that the individuals that take away from that energy and how to manage them support them to grow their self awareness, to work with them around the challenges to why that might be the case or if it's just a natural characteristic to, to manage that. And that's been. You also have to, as a coach have a huge amount of self awareness in what triggers you and what invigorates you and what empowers you. So that when there are clashes or, or differences of generational opinion, for argument's sake, you have to understand that's not what it was when you were a player. And this is how it is. And this is really important to accept, grow and be open with. And you have to have self awareness around that as a, as a coach, because otherwise you don't get the best out of the group, especially the youngsters coming through. It's fascinating because everything you're saying, and I'm sort of looking at the, the sort of leader compensy framework as you were talking through or looking at it, you know, your people so know the team, know their strengths and weaknesses, how to develop those, build on their, build on their strengths, develop their, develop their weaknesses. But also as part of that process, you know, managing yourself and reflecting on, you know, could I have done that slightly better with this in this particular interaction, you know, how do I improve that engagement next time? I mean, it very much fits with that sort of leader compensy framework. So in terms of like a team code or team set of values, at the start it was a sort of, you know, people were working, people were coming into training, it was, you know, the commitment and wanting to be there. But in terms of when you then move to the sort of Harlequins coaching setup, did you get yourselves around a bespoke set of values and standards? So for the army, it's courage, physical and moral courage, discipline, it's respect for others, integrity, loyalty and selfless commitment. Did you have a set of values as a club? Harlequins have a really huge set of values and as you walk through the door, it is smack in your face and it's true tempo, relationships, unconventional and enjoyment. Those are the values of the club and everyone within it will work within those values. So if you're a commercial department or you're the women's program, you work within those and they might mean something slightly different in context of your role and responsibility, but you 100% have to work within those values and make them contextual to your environment. And that was definitely something that was really, really strong within the club and very, very important to the players. So it was something that we needed to engage with to get the best out of the players, especially around the relationships, having the adaptability and the courage and creativity to be unconventional, especially on the pitch and the enjoyment element of it. You know, allowing players time to breathe and connect and also allowing yourself as a coach and a high performance staffing group to connect with group. Hugely important for success and hugely important to the club that you do that as a, as a leader within their organization. It was really, really important. Can I just sort of now take us to sort of on the pitch? So you know you're 20, 18 and prior and prior and you've already mentioned the role of trust, but can you just expand on trust in a high performing team? How you build it quickly in that sort of elite environment? You know, on a rugby field one to 15, you've got to trust everyone to the left and to the right of you. Whether it be at the breakdown, whether it be, you know, in a scrum, you have that trust. How do you build that trust on and off the pitch? Quite simply is building trust is about what you say marries up to what you do. And I think as a player what you say, if you're going to say something, does it marry up with how you do it? I think is hugely important. And as a coach I still think that's incredibly important. Trust is what you are saying is backed up by your actions and it's done consistently and that's in its most simplest form. You also have then to take into account if you don't have the trust as a coach and you want to have a performance conversation with a player, you don't have that trust. And you need to have a conversation that has hard truths, it has potential performance conflict or differences of opinion. If you don't have that relationship and that trust by your actions you slowly erode the engagement and the belief in the group. And I think it's huge. And I've been in situations where I felt like coaches having conversations with me were emissive or avoided hard conversations rather than just saying it how it was, which eventually eroded the trust of what they say and what they do was completely two different things. And that for me has stuck with me as A player for trying to be at my best with that as a coach. I know you can't always say every single truth in its crasses form, but you have to give honesty and context around honesty consistently to sustain that trust. And that, that's huge. And it's a huge challenge and I think it's an underestimated challenge. But firstly, you've got to build relationships and you've got to give time to players to enable that. And that takes time. And that, I mean, that's the same in a military context as well. You know, if you have a completely new team and you go out into a operational environment, you know, trust has built over time through personal connections, that very human element of leadership. And I think, you know, I suppose beauty that you have in a. In an England setup, generally speaking, you're working with the same players on a regular basis and, you know, high performing teams generally know that they know each other extremely well, they know how to play to people's strengths and weaknesses. And that's. That is. But the critical bit that you mentioned there is built up over time and I think that's really, I think that's really key. I think it underpins everything. If you, if you behave in a certain way that is different to what you talk about as a coach and even as a player, you lose your ability to have that trust within the group. And again, I've definitely got it wrong at moments of pressure. I've definitely got it wrong through moments of blind spots and you don't recognise the impact of decisions and you haven't considered things, which is a natural blind spot that you might have as a new leader. And it's been the biggest learning for me, a. For what I believe I am as a character to what I've shown. And are they marrying up? If not, why not? How do I fix it? And that's been a huge learning experience for me as a leader. Yeah, I mean, we have a saying in the arm, the standards you walk past the standards you accept. You know, essentially it's, you know, talking the talk and, you know, doing the talk, doing the. Doing the doing of what you're actually saying as opposed to sort of saying one thing but, you know, doing it, doing a slightly different thing. I want to take us now to, whether it be a key part of a match or changing room, but, you know, in that high performance team, you know, the England Red Roses, thinking you're toying back to that particular point in your career, the emotional intensity, how do you balance that emotional intensity? With composure when leading on the field. Just going back to like halftime talks. When I played, analysis wasn't a thing. It was, you might have a few, you'd listen to a few points of the coaches observations but that could be complete rose tinted glasses of their expertise of what they look at at the game versus actually what the priority and need is. So everything was really emotive. Everything was about energy, driving sort of passion, driving hunger to perform better. And within the key leaders of the group a couple of snapshots from what has been observed or what has been a constant within that performance. Very little came from the coaches from a objective point of view because they're going through a huge emotional state as well. So it was very much reliant on the, the players within the group and the thinkers within the group that could keep that sort of calm space when critically under pressure. And it was all emotive. So that's all I knew as a player and I am very emotive as an individual. So I, I like and I, I fuel myself through other people's emotion or passion and my own and I, I want to give that to others. But also as you come to then being a leader and times moved on, analysis is very sophisticated. You've got the ability tools that look through data points within your, your performance so far and you've then got to as a head coach decipher what's really important, what's not important and on what space do you need to give that playing group? What do they need? Do they need actually a little bit of emotion because they're flat? Actually technically and tactically we're doing everything right, but the energy's not there. Or conversely we're so hyped up we're giving penalties away at the breakdown, we're not executing our set piece and we're dropping the ball. So actually there are a few things that we technically could look at to improve that that will settle us into the game and get a foothold into the game. So big learning for me as a coach, coming from a real sort of old school, you know, spit and sawdust, emotive changing room, lots of deep heat, lots of shouting into the opportunity to have handheld table looking at stats and looking at clips that have been deemed important that need to be shown to the group, but also managing that alongside the natural, good old fashioned. What is the playing group feeling, what the senior players feeling and how do we need to give them that space to do that in that time? Because the high pressure environment that you talk about Whether it be particularly on the pitch is very similar to combat and our commanders taking that sort of pause moment to work out the next steps. How do you, in that moment of pressure, moment of heat and the similar sort of battlefield moment, do you get the leaders on the pitch to come to the fore? And if I reflect on my time at Twickenham last Saturday, taking my six year old son to watch his first game of English rugby, getting the leaders of that England team to come to the before, how as a coach do you prepare them for that moment to, to provide that calmness, that decision making under pressure? I think that's a, it's a million dollar question, right? In some weeks you get it really right and some weeks it just doesn't, doesn't function. For me and my experience as a coach, I need those individuals. I am in nature, passionate in nature, creative and emotive in the moment, whereas I need that. And my ability to pause has to be very conscious. I lead sort of with my heart on my sleeve at points. So recognizing that and having the self awareness of that but also utilizing people within the group that A have a feel for the performance on the ground and B have that real presence of calmness, I think it's then really important to marry that up. And it could be as basic as you know, having a conversation prior to the game. Key points going into the game of this. Is there anything that you feel we need to add or take away? Having that conversation with the senior players on the pitch and then as you walking into the changing room having a check in. Look, we've got three points, X, Y and Z. Do we need to address it or are the players very aware that these need to be fixed up or we need to address X, Y and Z. You're going to have a certain amount of time to then feedback what you feel is really necessary so you can, you can push it and pull it how you need. But I think you're missing an opportunity to get a real 360 of the group if you don't utilize those individuals on the pitch. But also in your staff group if you've got an analyst that's very good within the game and can see points that are really, really, you know, themes throughout that half that actually we probably need to address this because it's, it's not happened once, it's happened six times and it's the same offense or it's the same issue. We're going up at 2 and actually forced the space from a lineup, whatever it may be and you're not necessarily seeing that because you, you've just seen your team give six penalties away or miss a conversion and that's. You put you sort of going in the wrong side of the scoreboard or whatever it may be. So utilizing your staff group as well to feedback. And again, you don't need to have all the answers as a leader, but what you do need to do is recognize where are the power points within your group and how do you utilize them to enable you to have those pause moments and to enable you to make decisions that are informed rather than in the moment. And again, that's probably something that leaders consistency wise can really let them down. And I suppose it's, you know, you talked about the video analysis, but it's learning from past mistakes and, you know, recognizing that last time we did this. But, you know, and players hopefully reflecting on that. In the army particularly, we train for certain moments where we put people through battlefield scenarios, put them under pressure that way, you know, with, with, with some of the rugby experience I've had, you can sort of recreate those, but it is a little bit more difficult on the pitch. Did you, did you do anything to create those high pressure moments from a, in the coaching side of things to prepare, to prepare the units, the teams for those situations? Or is that quite, I can imagine that's quite difficult to recreate is having an awareness. So, for example, compounded errors are huge. So you have momentum, you have a discipline issue or there's a skill error and then it's compounded by another error which is then compounded by another error which then gives the momentum to the opposition. And points come of it, you lose points or you lose opportunities to score as a result of it. So there's definitely been scenarios within my experience where we've had to make players aware of that. And we're actually with Roslyn park at the moment having a really big chat about that because we're compounded errors which is taking the momentum away from us and as a result we're hemorrhaging points on the pitch and then we're having to try and find that momentum back and then, and try and win performances as a result. So how can you overcome compounded errors? Because it, there might be different, completely different thing. It's not just we keep not rolling away in a tackle and then going for the ball. So there's a discipline issue there. It's completely different things. So how do you train that? So it wasn't necessarily, and it isn't always necessarily about the subject matter of the, the issue, the skill error, the discipline error or whatever it may be. It's the compounding of the errors. And you can train that, you can scenario base, you can get refs into the game looking for different things and making it a challenge in that way. Scenario based, take a yellow card, take your biggest player or your best player or one of your most influential players off and how that impacts the thought process. There's loads of stuff you can do around that which can transfer and has transferred but also when you're reviewing games, not not only is it important to review images of where we need to technically get better, but also trends within the game. So we did a bit at Harlequins around our compounded of errors and what that resulted in. So okay, we, we were 15, 10 up, up, momentum shifted, we didn't have possession, we gave away a penalty, we gave away 50 meters, we gave away another penalty. They score and then you look at the, the trends off the back of that. Okay, so now they've got the momentum, their tails are up, they're, they've continued possession plus 10 phases, they've created a set piece pressure in RN22, they've turned it over and they've scored as a result. There are trends that show you stuff through the game and actually so you don't, you can train it by making it scenario based, you can observe it by looking at trends and how it's impacting the game and the narrative of the game and then you can back that up by visuals. So it's important, it's not all about the technical, tactical, it's about the narrative of the game and why that that's happened and contextually how we need to fix that. And it might be a call like you've given away two penalties on the bounce. Okay, action, no one's competing. Everything is, you know, we are, we're not passive but we are not even risking bad body position rucks or non competes at the line out, whatever it may be that you need to do to, to get you back to just. Okay, now we think about the next five minutes of our process. Yeah, I mean you hear whether you've bought the ref mic or not, you know, next job, next job constantly. And it's that mental resilience that if mistakes have been made, it's that ability for the team, team but also personal mindset to move on to that next thing. I suppose, you know, that links nicely to my sort of next question about the physical, the mental demands of rugby are probably the most. You know, rugby is probably a sport that's most similar to, you know, high intensity combat. You have that physical fatigue, that mental pressure, you know, standards, decision making, split second, decision making needing to be done. How have you as a player and then also as a coach maintain standards and decision making when physically stretched, you know, fatigued? How do you have that clarity of thought when, you know, you've had sort of 16, 17 phases and you're, you know, you're, you're done sort of physically? I think it's again really challenging. I think as a player having policing alongside it. So being a police officer alongside it and having a different type of pressure and critical thinking, whether it's physically or mentally in a situation helped me prepare for that as a player and vice versa. My experiences as a player definitely fed into my decision making process as a police officer. So I was very fortunate to have the two because they married well and they complemented each other in different scenarios. What I did learn and what I think is really important again for players is knowing what, what makes you tick, so what frustrates you, what energizes you and really having a comprehensive understanding of that, but also recognizing when you are, you're going to be dysregulated on the pitch. So what do we need as a group to bring that regulation back? And now you see it, you know, this two breath where everyone gets together, they take a couple of deep breaths and it is the leader or a couple of senior players saying one or two things and then we move on. I think that's really important. And something as I've developed as a coach, seen the value in it, working with psychologists and sports psychologists specifically around regulation, how do you get that consistently is creating self awareness. And again that visual feedback when we've lost our heads within the game or where we've lost our composure, where is that switch point and that ability for someone to rein it in and get the group back and centered? And if that's not happening, show, show it's not happening and show the repercussions of it as an analysis. But in the moment it's really tough. It's really tough because also not only do your decisions get impaired, but your ability to listen and take things on get impaired. So it's really tough. You can tell you can motor down or you can get everyone in. And the worst thing you can say to a group of irate players is calm down, we need to think about next job because they'd probably tell you where to go. It's enforcing and creating awareness for senior players around the moments where they need to intervene and they need to have that. And you've got to work with sports psychologists, you've got to work with behaviorists, you've got to visually have a drive as a coach to show that and recognize the impact and the narrative as a result of not addressing that in the moment. And linked to a lot of what you said there, you know, is there any, you know, we've got a lot of listeners on this podcast, you know, a wide ranging from within the military and out the military. But I'm sure they would sort of benefit from any routines or habits that have helped you sustain sort of high performance and that resilience, whether it be physical resilience or mental resilience in that moment. Is there anything that you, you know, have been useful for you in your time? Yeah, hugely. Like. Like I having a routine. So knowing what my week looks like, how much reps I've got in as a player really impacted my confidence on the day. So routine had to be really, really regimented for me and then having real understanding that I've hit everything that I could this week without impacting me physically in terms of reps. And then I'd go into the game feeling really confident prior to the game or during the game. The biggest thing for me was controlling the controllables, which is a cliche thing that everyone sort of throws around these days. But not fixating on the things that I had no control over was a huge benefit for me as an emotional player and probably one of the most basic things that you is spoken about now. But back then it was the one thing that sort of kept me grounded and as a result I was able to bring myself back to a mindset that thought about the next thing. A mindset that created engagement in the moment and a self drive. I can't control the rest. I can't control the weather. I can't control how those three players on the opposition are playing, whether they're informal or not. What I can do is control how I act and behave and the decisions I make around those around that information. And as a tactical player, I love that challenge. So I actually looked forward to understanding what I could and couldn't control and how it can impact me for the better or impact the team for the better. I think, I think being a natural optimistic as well. There's opportunity in everything. If you look at it with the right lens and understand your limitations, but also your opportunities and having the confidence to deliver on that I think is huge. I really like that phrase of control, the controllables. And I'm sure people here could relate to with that in terms of the way that the army is moving now. It's taking a lot of things from elite sport where it can, we're evolving training where we can. And obviously being in the military, there are times when sleep deprivation is just part of the job. But when we're not training the importance of sleep, you've been brought into a place where we are today. In Santas, we don't need to necessarily deprive people of sleep if, if we don't need to because NEW sleep aids Recovery, physical recovery, mental recovery. How important has sleep been for you as a player to recover mentally and physically as a player? Huge recovery and balance in your lifestyle gives you the best opportunity to perform at your best. If you get that wrong, it impacts you whether that's physically through, over, train, under, train, you miss out on performances, you miss out at being your best. And from a recovery point of view, yeah, from a recovery point of view, you tend to not reach your potential. But from a mental point of view, it's huge. Like how can you mentally be at your best and take on information, whether objective or emotional, and deal with it appropriately if you haven't got that proper rest and recovery in and you hear and Johnny Wilkinson's story is really well documented on how he probably didn't get that balance right. He was at the highest of his career pinnacle and probably why he sustained a dozen or so injuries over the latter point of his career because he was so obsessed with being the best and doing everything and depriving himself of the recovery and depriving himself of the decompression to be his best. And as a result his body broke down. I think there's a huge lesson in that and it's really, really important. But also those who are, are not professional and have to commit to. So we harlequins two years ago, you know, there's still players that full time job and that might be, you know, plumbing or teaching mentally or physically draining your battery. And you're coming into an environment where you need to train, you need to be in the high performance mindset and you physically need to be where you need to be for to execute what you need to execute on the pitch or in the gym or if you're a senior player, how you speak, how you act. And it's, you know, that was huge for us at Quinn's. We, you know, we had a real we had a reporting system that asked you about your sleep, asked you about how you're feeling mentally, where you were on your menstrual cycle, you know, and also just how are you feeling in yourself? Those were huge. Because if you're at Your best is 20% of 100, but you can't give any more then understanding that. And knowing that as a group and as a coaching group is really important because you can still get something worthwhile out of that 20% even if it's taken away some of responsibility or some of the load to ensure that you get the best out of that 20%. And that was a huge challenge, but something that was, was hugely valuable to make sure we got everything out the resource, whether depleted or not. And if someone's at 100%, okay, let's put them all in, they're fresh, they've had two days off, they're raring to go, they're fit, they're feeling good, let's put loads into them and we can take some of that off them. The other individual, and I think you've touched on it with the Johnny Wilkinson piece. But amongst all of this, the physical and the mental preparation, you've also got to be able to find those moments, those activities, those little things that you enjoy as well as you know, you've got to enjoy what you're doing and find those moments to separate away, whether it be from the rugby field, the coaching element or for the military audience from that day to day military action. And just for that, however long the time period is, sort of just provide a sort of firewall and a bit of a break. But you need to enjoy it to really get the most from it as well. Well, yeah, and as an individual you need to enjoy it and enjoy the, the challenges of it, but you also need to recognize what you need to do back a house to make your front of house as impactful as possible. Because as a coach I think it's really important, you've got to present yourself in a certain way every day. So what do you need to do behind the scenes to make sure that's really consistent? I think it's the same for players, what really drives them as an individual that that impacts how they deliver and what they give to the group. And there's a big example of that. You look at Ellie Kildun, sports personality nominee and has done really well in the spotlight, but actually as a performer on the pitch, you have to give a lot of scope for that individual to thrive and feel comfortable to thrive and she's hugely important to the success of the team. And at Quinn's, you know, she wanted to have a camera with her and take, you know, taking little snaps and really being. Having access to photography and being creative and. Because it drove her to be her best on the pitch, because you give that comfort and confidence off the pitch and you allow them to express themselves in a way on the pitch, in a gilded cage. So you say, so they can fly, but they're definitely within parameters. You untap a performance that you didn't necessarily foresee. And I think it's important to understand that as well. So I just want to move on now because it was International Women's Day on Sunday and we often talk about visibility and opportunity. How has women's rugby leadership evolved during your career, do you think? Unrecognisable. Absolutely unrecognisable. There's still work to be done, don't get me wrong. And I think change is afoot, but it will take time and it will take individuals like me to sort of keep pushing and paving the way, and it will take players that come out of the game and want to go into coaching to do the same, but it's unrecognizable. You know, I went to the World cup final at Twickenham when the Red Roses played Canada, and honestly, I couldn't believe I was at a women's game. I hands down the matchday experience as a fan. The demographic of the group of fans that were watching was huge. It was families, it was dads with their sons, it was mums with their daughters. It was everything in between. And the stadium was packed to see female sport. And it was so. It was incredibly emotional because I'd come from a generation where playing at that, you know, Isha rugby club that has a stand of 400 capacity, and you're not filling that up and you're playing your Autumn internationals against New Zealand or your Six nations fixtures against Ireland on that in that setting, and you're having to pay subsidies for the. The hotel. And I, you know, that was what it was, and we're not there anymore. And it's brilliant, but it's just incredible. And seeing more about female success within sport, globally, I think, will only make it get even better. I think the space where I'm sitting now is how can we then cross borders where we have a legacy of female coaches impacting men's game? And we've got a legacy because now we've got a legacy of men impacting the female game. John Mitchell, Shortlisted to be one of the best coaches in the world. And his first impact in the women's game was with an international Red Roses team. You know, he's gotten abundance of experience, first experience over with women and he's absolutely smashed it out the park and that's kudos to him. But let's, let's see crossover in another way and how do we do that? How do we get there? And that for me is where my passion lies probably right now for where I'm at in my journey. Yeah, I mean you could. I mean, I looked up the previous record crowd for women's rugby was 54,000. And then you talk about the 81,000 at the alliance back in September 2025 and I watched it on the TV and you could sense that atmosphere and that pass. And I think it's a real success story and hopefully it can be built on, I suppose, flipping it the other way and looking at, through a slightly negative lens, what are the barriers that exist for women aspiring to leadership roles now in elite sport? Not necessarily rugby. I just think it's the unknown. So you see, you hear Emma Hayes talking about it within the football environment where there's just a lack of representation with female coaches within the male game and you. It is an unknown and someone. And if organizations and clubs are not going to be brave and do what they believe is right because. Because that individual showcases real potential to make an impact because it's an unknown, then national governing bodies, you know, leagues, the businesses behind football leagues, Premiership, Gallagher, need to create minimum operating standards to enable that. And I think that's the next step. If there are individuals doing it one by one. And we've got a case of a female coach in the American leagues, the MRL or mlr. Sorry, she's doing great things. She's a skills coach, got there on her own accord and making a huge impact. Brilliant. But that's not off the back, that's a one off. Having one offs is great and really positive and good and it's a start point. But policy and financial incentives, let's face it, if the national governing body is going to pay half your salary, clubs, that's an opportunity to have a really good coach that's really qualified in a role for the half the price. There are things that we could do to be better and that for me is, I think there has to be a bit of responsibility now on, on those big corporations or governing bodies to. To enable leadership. Yeah. Because yes, it will happen organically at certain points because you might Have a scenario where someone gets championed like I did, but to make fundamental change and sustainable change and not just a one off potluck up. I think it's really important that governing bodies and organizations do something about it. Minim minimum operating standards. You look at NFL, the Rooney Rule. So NFL put in a policy, did it in 2015, readjusted it in 2022. Making sure that every process of performance, staff or coach, there is two of those sort of characteristics are looked at, whether that's female or from a ethnic background or a minority. There has to be two in every process. And as a result you look at 2022, you've got 15 female coaches within the NFL leagues nationwide making, making really good impacts, contributing. It's not just oh, we have to because it's part of the process. They've been selected and being given the job because they're best for it. It just so happens the policy has afforded them the opportunity to have that interview. And I'm looking. You know, you started your rugby career at Kingston in a mixed under sevens team playing alongside I think your brother's club. I'm a coach of the under sevens team at Minchin Hampton in Gloucestershire and we've got a great mix of boys and girls, probably the girls that actually, you know, have other better players and have the greater potential. But one of the things you've sort of touched on there is the young women coming through a rugby club like my own at Minchin Hampton are surrounded by, you know, all male coaches and I suppose it's really important that we, we try to sort of change that mix and for certainly they see female coaches and female coaches in leadership positions. Do you see that sort of changing much in the sort of next couple of years, the one at community level? I think there is a huge push, and rightly so, for female coaches, for mums to come down with their daughters or their sons and have the confidence, confidence to, to be a coach at their local club. And there is a real incentive to educate and, and build confidence in females doing that. And I know the RFU are getting behind that and backing that and it's part of that legacy, that legacy scheme off the back of the World cup in the summer. So I think there is a lot of investment going into that and rightly so, because if it starts at the bottom, it only then creates opportunity at the top. Permeates up. Yeah, it does, it really does. So I, I know there's a lot of investment going into that and I think that's really important and it's also, it's a, it's a might that changes the mindset of little Timmy who's had his dad, then he's had his, his teacher who is a PE teacher, also a rugby man. And then you've got your academy coach, he wants to be in, in an academy and, and that's a guy and then he's in the first team and that's a guy. So if you can change that, it changes the mindsets of the player as they're coming through as well. And also for the females like Tilly. Timmy and Tilly have probably had the similar sort of coaches going through the same pathway and not had exposure to females within that. So their perception is all skewed as well. So it's really important for the future sustainability of the game. Well, if you're ever in Gloucestershire, near Minchin Hampton on a Sunday at 9 o', clock, Amy, you're more than welcome, welcome to help out with the, with the under sevens. What advice would you give to what advice would you give to young women in sport or all the military audience that are listening who aspire to lead in traditionally male dominated environments? One piece of advice, know yourself definitely self awareness, know your worth, so understand what's acceptable and what's unacceptable and have a thick skin to keep persevering because as a result of your perseverance, you're giving people in the future those opportunities. That's a great piece of advice and I suppose linked to sort of questions and advice that our audience could take away. What's the one leadership question you wish more leaders ask themselves when they think about purpose, culture and influence? That's a good question. Am I doing it for the right reasons or am I doing it for myself? I think big question, you think you're doing it for the right reasons, but actually what you're doing is doing it because it feels right to you. And that might not be for the right reasons, right intent, but not for the right reasons. And I think that comes down to self awareness and emotional intelligence. And I know that we've spoken on barriers but some of these barriers are, you know, there are actual barriers and then there's perceived barriers and I suppose, you know, the army is trying to become more representative society. I've come from a university officer training background at Northumbria where the male female split is 50 50. Unfortunately, when it comes to joining Santas to follow a career through as an officer, that 5050 split is certainly reduced from a female perspective. What advice would you offer in terms of females looking at career options, whether that be in the military, into rugby coaching or just any other sort of walks of life to overcome those self imposed barriers to sort of say, you know, they are good enough, you know, there are plenty of females out there that are more than good enough to do a lot of the roles that are out there. But many of the, many of the things or barriers or self imposed or self perceived. One thing that stuck with me when I worked at England Rugby. I got to work with Dr. Kate Hayes who is now working for the Lionesses. And she was sports psychologist with the Red Roses at the time. And I remember quite vividly a debrief around the Red Roses season with the coach at the time. And she talked about a study that had been done within Sport England that she had been a part of. And it was about individual athletes. And they looked at male individual athletes and female individual athletes and the male individual athlete trend was they were internally motivated to continue what they aspired to continue. Whereas for the female the trend was they needed more external, external motivators to keep them aspiring to what they wanted to do. It didn't naturally as a trend come from internal. They needed external support to help them thrive. Now the advice that I would give to females coming through leadership, having heard that information and thought it was really powerful, is try and have the right people around you that help support you but also recognise that might not be possible. And what do you need to do to preserve and continue to have the desire to pursue your leadership role. And you've got to find confidence that there has to be, that has to come from some sort of in inner confidence and internal dialogue that completely, you know, poo poos, the, the, the imposter syndrome stops the doubt and it continues you to grow. And if you haven't got that stop support and you can't get it from the organization that you're looking to pursue your leadership in, you have to find it from somewhere. Because the person next to you, a guy to your left and a guy to your right, they've found that and have been, they've not gone through the adversity that perhaps you have as a female and they know no different except to be internally driven. Your experience and your upbringing and societal pressures are completely different which mean that you need to find a different way to compete at those same levels to stay resilient. So it's just understanding that that's really great advice and I think it's something that we, you know, we all surround ourselves by our friends and our family. But it might be finding someone else that provides you that impetus or that bit of, you know, confidence that you need. When you. When you think about your legacy, Amy, and the one that you want to leave as a, as a player and coach, what does, what does meaningful progress for women in leadership look like for you? It's not gender based and it's just the right person has been given a fair chance for the opportunity to be a leader. Like, that's the North Star, right? And we're so far from that now and that's the reality of where we're at. But let's everyone progress to be in that space moving forward where you don't need to bring gender into it. It is just that individual was the best leader for that role and they were given the opportunity without systematic barriers, without perceived barriers, without anything in between. It's just, they're qualified, they're good, they get the job. Brilliant. Powerful advice. Powerful advice. Best person for the job. I agree. I've got a couple of fast fire leadership one liners, Amy's to finish on. So best leadership advice you've ever received. Oh, my God. This is fast as well. Best leadership advice I've ever. Say what you do and do what you say. Great. And one thing you would change about leadership in rugby, overnight process to get the opportunity to be the leader. Great. And finally, a leadership habit you think everyone should adopt. Self awareness, emotional intelligence, emotional regulation. Amy, thank you so much for generally, I could have gone on and on asking a number of questions. It's been the passion that you have. You know, I can see the emotion in your face. It's just generally been inspiring and hopefully inspiring to our audience. And I generally could have continued this conversation for another hour at least. It's been great to have you on and thank you so much for giving up your time. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Cheers. Thank you. In this episode of the Centre for Army Leadership podcast, Amy Turner, former England Red Roses rugby player and former Harlequins coach, shares insights on leadership drawn from elite rugby and coaching in high performance environments. Amy discusses the importance of having a positive impact on others and recognising the strengths within its team, particularly in high pressure moments. She reflects on maximizing opportunities in both the women's and men's game and how building trust as both a player and a coach has been central to her leadership journey. A key theme for Amy is self awareness, ensuring that actions consistently match words on and off the pitch. She talks openly about some of the barriers she has had to overcome and the need to persevere, know your worth and get support from others to achieve your goal. Amy highlights the value of controlling the controllable factors to sharpen focus and mental preparation and stresses what happens behind the scenes is often what drives performance on the pitch. The conversation concludes by reinforcing the leader compensy framework. Who leaders are, their character, what leaders know, their knowledge on, what leaders do, their actions.