Black Mirror: USS Callister Graphic Novel Kickstarter | Interview with Neil Gibson - Go Fund This

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We're gonna start out by talking about the Kickstarter he has going right now that I know you are going to be extremely interested in. And then we're going to get into a regular Alley Chats type interview. We're going to mash them together and put it on both feeds. And I'm going to say it up front, you're gonna love it. You're gonna want to support it. You're going to. Even if you go, I can't, you're going to want to share it with your friends because there are so many people that you know that are going to be into this project that are going to want to support it. You want to make them aware of it because we want this to succeed. So here's what the project is. Oh, by the way, Neil, welcome to the shows. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. This, the Kickstarter is for the comic book. Comic adaptation, not adaptation. It's an original. Correct. It's based. No, it is not. It's what? It's. It's an adaptation of the show. It is an adaptation of that episode, the USS Callister episode of Black Mirror. Yes. Okay, now I got it. See, I'm learning as well, right along with the audience here. So it's the Black Mirror, USS Callister. You know, I always love it when I come on shows when the host has done preparation. But I did, I read all this. It's early and I have very little coffee in me right now. So we've got the Black Mirror, USS Callister. It's a graphic novel. Right now, as of this Moment, it has 500 backers. You have crushed your goal already. The goal was 2164. You're at 40,075. You are going to go so much further because we still have 24 days to go. So that's wonderful news, but you want to get in on this Kickstarter. So, Neil, like I said, we're gonna. We're gonna sidestep the whole gofundme this thing because you've already hit the goal. But I want people to do it. But I want to hear about you. So why don't you tell people about the Black Mirror graphic novels a little bit about what this project is? So, look, There's. That's a very interesting question. I love it when my guests come on and they're prepared for a question like that. Because the thing is, my favorite books are the ones I reread. Okay. And there are a few television shows I've rewatched, but not many. And Black Mirror is why I love it, is because what I try to do with my comics is to entertain, educate, surprise, and leave people thinking. And Black Mirror always does that, right? It sticks to the days afterwards, some episodes. And doing it in a different format lends a different spin on things. So if you imagine you see a play, but you see a play with a different actor doing it, and it's totally different. Like how many different versions of the same Shakespeare plays, but just it's with a different director, with different cast. It is different. And that's what I'm doing. A different flavor of the same story. And it is the same story because it's a great story, but having a different format. It's a different medium. The difference between seeing a play versus seeing a film, like A Few. A Few Good Men, phenomenal film, but originally was a stage play. And this is just a different interpretation of a great story. You know what, we've talked about this a lot on this show. You haven't been aware of this, but I. I bring up a particular thing absolutely related to this. With comic creators, with writers all the time, there's a. There's a great thing. If you read the Game of Thrones graphic novel, the first one, it came out before the TV show, but it was after the first book obviously, was published. And George R.R. martin writes a thing at the beginning, and he says, I love that they're doing all these things because each one affects people differently. It's a different take and brings you into the world differently. And he said, he said reading the comic, the graphic novel of Game of Thrones, to him, it felt like the first time he was hearing the story. He loved it, even though he wrote it. And he said, you know, it does have that effect. I'm a firm believer in that. Every format you can go in. Like, think about when you first heard. I don't know if I might. You're gonna go, I don't know what you're talking about. When I was a kid, obviously, Star wars was a big thing, Right. I think you've heard of Star wars, right? Star what? Yeah. Okay. There's this thing called Star Wars. And I remember when I was a kid, Christmas, I got all these Star wars toys. And that night a big thing happened. Npr, the National Public Radio here, played the Star wars audio drama for the first time. And it was six hours long, I believe. And it was an audio interpretation of Star wars, which I knew inside and out. And I had read the book and I had the comics, and then I heard the audio version, and it was like hitting it brand new for me all over again. That's what you're doing with this graphic novel. You're bringing it to us in another way, hitting us a different way. And I think the graphic novel is a beautiful way to do this. So that's why I said, everybody's going to be interested. They're going to be into this because what a great idea. Thank you. I like the approach that the art has done with this. Because I asked him, like, how are we going to do this? Because at the start of the. If you watch the episode right at the start, it's like 1960s. It's got black lines down the sides of the TV screen. Right? Right. And it's filter. And then it goes to the real world and it's drab. And then it goes back into the game, but it's still dated. But not as dated as the opening scene. Right? Right. And then it changes again in the game right at the end. I don't have spoilers, so how to do that? So with the. I thought about using multiple artists, but my main artist said, actually, Neil, I'd like to give it a shot. So I said, well, how are we going to do it then? Well, let's. Let's. How about this? And his pitch was, for the original scenes, we'll do Jack Kirby and just four colors. And then we'll have a drab for going into real world. And going back, we'll move into Neil Adams 1970s rather than 1960s. So it's still data, but not quite the same. We have those bendy pixels. And then for the end, we'll go for current Marvel style. And I said, well, for the coloring, then I want to have a lot of J.J. abrams flair on it. And this is just some of the small details we're talking about, just for the. Let alone the coloring, the lettering and the paneling, how we change things. But it's just fun to think how much thought has gone into this by each of the team members. I think you're approaching it just the right way. Even looking at the Kickstarter and looking at the different graphics that are showing here, seeing the different styles, I'm already so infatuated with it, and what a great way to do it. So, like I said, support this. Get in on this. Here's what I want you to do. Since. Since we've already kind of blown it, here's where we're at. It's already funded, but you're going to want it. Let's just talk about a couple of the different tiers. What are. What do you think are the most popular tiers? Oddly, it was the most expensive ones. They went like that, really. And so you can't get them anymore because they're one of a kind. You know, like in Star Trek, we had the different color. Three different colors, so we had one of a kind each of those. And they all went instantly like a thousand dollars. A thousand pounds, actually. Thousand pounds. It's a little more than $1,000. Yeah. And then so we've had to introduce a new tier. I think that's going to go pretty quickly, too, but in my opinion, because we're doing a weird thing on this, because normally with Kickstarter, it's right at the start, and at the end you get those kicks. We've deliberately staged our PR marketing to actually try and do it through the run, to actually have spikes here and there. And interesting new things are happening. And I personally think that if you're not, maybe Black Mirror is not for you. Some people see the first episode and they just go, no, it's too much. Yeah. Are you talking about the pig episode, by chance? Because. Yes, I am. You know what? You said something that doesn't leave you. That does not leave me. That it doesn't. Unbelievable. Yes. And that was a risky move in there. They didn't know how big it would be. So in some ways it grabs attention, but it does alienate people as well. So that's a trade off. Interestingly enough, we're reprinting My. This is a side issue, but my biggest seller is called Twisted Dark. And the opening story is only four pages long. It's four sides, and it's a shocking twist. Because all my stories, again, I try to entertain, educate, surprise, if you're thinking. And it's dramatic. But we changed it because of some reactions since it first came out, we've noticed that sometimes it triggers people. In fact, we've had people cry at our booth when they read the first story because it's emotional. I love that. Well, okay, there's not. The stories are all dark with twist endings that sense twisted dark. And I remember at New York Comic Con, this woman's. Because the stories all connect together, but they also work standalone. And this woman was skeptical, so I'll prove it. Pick a volume at random. Okay, pick. And she picked volume three. Pick a story random. She picked one and she read it. She's turned the last page. She saw the twist. She screamed and showed me her arm. All her hairs were standing up. Wow. So I was really pleased with that. But I'm not pleased with people crying because it hits them. So emotionally, I think if they've read a few stories and then one hits them, that's okay. But the first one, they don't know what this is. And that sort of. I didn't want to have that effect again because it was more than one person started doing this. So we changed the story. Now, having that initial story means you get the shock factor. People go, wow. People are interested, are more interested. But I changed it for a different story in the reprinting because I just didn't want to upset people. And that's a risky to take. So with the black mirror thing, you maybe Netflix might want to change the order for new people trying it for the first time because they won't be as traumatized by the first. Right. Because that big one is a barrier to entry for some people. Exactly. That's a risky take for some people. But it's. It's done its purpose because it's got not people interested in it and talked about. I told you I'd go off topic, by the way. So there you go. We're good. We're good. In fact, I'm going to just steer us back to go fund this for just one more thing here. You said you do have essentially stretch goals. You have things that you're going to be adding in. I don't want to blow anything, but have you got some really good ones that we should be looking forward to? Yes, but you could have Just said yes. Well, yes. The thing is I'm. I'm not good at these public. Look, look, this is not my property, right? So I have to be careful what I say because if it's something that I make my stuff, I can say whatever I like, I can mess up or shout at me, but ultimately I own it. So it's okay, right? In this case, it's not my product. So I have to have other people to figure in. So I have to be very careful about things. So yes, we have a stretch goal plan. That's all you need to say. Marketing department, Happy PR people. Yes, you chum to the water. We're good. What I will say though is like, if you have friends who like Black Mirror, this would be a wonderful surprise gift for them because it is a great story told in a different way. And that's. So you ask my question. What is the most popular tier? Most popular tier is actually the higher end ones. But if I was you and you had a friend who loves Black Mirror, I get the cheapest one. But get this because it's something special and different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's. The cheapest1 is 25 pounds in the US dollar right now. It's $33 for it, but it is absolutely worth it. Absolutely gorgeous. So yes, yes, I agree with you. In fact, as I'm leafing through these, it's funny because yes, that one is amazing. But then I get to like the crew editions and things and I'm like, wow, these are really, really cool. And you are right, that thousand pound tier is spectacular. And it's gone. So you know, when we were kids, we used to take, we'd go to school and at the beginning of school they'd make us put covers on our books. Like I remember like taking bags from the grocery store and you'd cut them up and you'd make a cover for your book to protect the covers. So those of you that can't get this special edition, go get some, you know, red, yellow, blue, green wrapping paper, make your own covers for it. It won't be as cool. You'll be the, the, you know, dollar store version of it. But the inside is go glorious. So I, you've actually, I've never been speechless before. In one of interviews, you're taking off top tier one and making it so cheap by putting wrapping paper on it. Okay, so going to move out of Gofund this one more thing, you can go to Kickstarter. You can look up Neil Gibson comics. You can look up Black Mirror. Either of these things are going to get you right there. I will put it in the show notes and I'm going to say it one more time, what I say on every one of these episodes. You want to support it? This is a super cool project. It is 100% happening because we've already hit the goal. We've doubled the goal almost right now at this moment. So you know it's happening. It's a safe bet. But if you have a Star Trek fan, if you have a Black Mirror fan, if you have a comic, graphic novel fan, this is all a home run for them. Makes great gifts. Get it now before the holidays. Boom. Okay. I'm not going to self permission, but what I actually will say though is if you're interested in how things are made, like behind the scenes. So I actually own the Black Mirror book of like how they made the TV show. This is before I'm a fan of the show. Yeah, sure. There's one tier which shows the script book, which the actual script I wrote for the show and how it's done in comic book format. And also it's the art book and how we made the art and the choices behind everything. So if you are interested in how comics are actually made, if you're like just either just out of curiosity because you want to make them yourselves, that's the tier to get. So frankly, when I fund things on Kickstarter, I just care about the book normally. But if it was someone like Alan Moore or someone about their stuff and there was an option for the script book and this other stuff, I'd be backing that because I'm just curious about that stuff. Yeah, I think it comes down to what you can afford because some people can only afford the lowest tier. They want in on it. But if you have the funds. Yeah, that's the tier. Well, only, only if that's what interests you because people just know the story. So if you're not interested in that stuff, then it's not for you, even if you have the money. But there's a reason I buy Criterion versions of movies because they have all those glorious extras. And the extras on the Criterion are the best. Right. So if you're that person, there's the tier. If you just want the DVD version, you want to see the story, that's here too. And if you're, you're a retailer, there's a retailer tier too, which is something I always encourage, which is really good. Okay, now we're going to move into the other part of this, ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, who knows who's listening? We've got Neil Gibson with us today. I've already introduced you. Don't think that I'm going to cut this up, but Neil actually has twisted comics, which I want to talk about that. So, Neil, give us, give us a lowdown on twisted comics and what's the philosophy behind it and let's get into it. Do you want to know how I got into it? Yeah, yeah. Whatever you want to start with. This is just a conversation now. Everyone's already backed your thing. I'm even going to change the graphic on the video. So now we're just talking. All right. Okay. It's my mission in. With my. In the business to get more people reading and creating comics because I've lectured at six universities about this, lectures at Google about it. I've done talk at Apple. I know I can if you. I'll go. The psychology of comics and the advantages it has for memory retention. Like, if you have brain scans of someone watching a film, reading a book, reading a comic, the blood flow is the highest of the comic book. The memory retention is the pictorial superiority effect. There's so much, so many advantages to it. I won't stop talking about it. But the reason is I felt prejudiced against it because in the UK, if you read comics at age 14, you are old to be reading comics is considered juvenile. Yeah. And that's just, it's just. It's bigoted viewpoints and they don't realize it. And thing is, I felt the same way. I started to read Spider man and then I grew out of it because all the stories felt the same to me. And then in my 20s, I read Watchmen. I was backpacking around the world and I read the book. I was like, wow. I couldn't believe how intelligent it was, how much made me think. And the visual metaphors, it was just. It was beautiful. And then I became. I became hooked. And I resent the fact that people, my friends, I go back to the UK because I was working abroad and they'd see me reading a comic. And you can't keep reading that forever. Like, why not? Have you ever read one yourself? And I get annoyed. And Brian Michael Bendis, he told me once that he'd read it and he'd read it on the subway and felt like he was reading porn or something. Like hiding the fact that he's reading a comic book because he wanted people to see that he's reading it. And I understood him. And I hate that. I want to get more people reading comics because there is a comic out there for everyone. Maybe you like historical fiction, like read mouse and emotional content. Maybe you just want to switch your brain off and you can read some superhero stuff or maybe you want political commentary and you can Joe Sacco. Whatever. There's a comic out there for everyone. Clearly you can see my passion for this stuff. Anyway, to answer your question, sorry if I'm rabbiting on here. Not at all, not at all. So I was working as a management consultant. I'd fly around the world helping companies and I was stuck on a project in Qatar in the Middle east and my friends and family back in the UK. So normally you work till past 10 every night. And on this project I was done by seven. So I thought I'd try making a comic book in my free time. And I did. And from having the first idea of the story to having the book in my hands was 200 pages, graphic novel was nine months. And I put the book out and incredibly went to number one on Amazon in the uk. And I was like, what? I'm not a creative guy, I'm an engineer. But people seem to like my writing. So I, I gave myself two years, I quit my job. If it didn't work I could go back. But I'm still doing it 12 years later. Was this Twisted Dark? Is that where you started? That's why I started Twisted Dark, yes. The first story idea was actually because I was in Qatar. I, I was in this. Like this whole city didn't exist eight years ago. Like it was all reclaimed land in the sea. There's, I was in the skyscrapers, brand new. I was wearing a suit. I pressed a button on the phone there, a fancy phone. And someone come and take my drinks, order for tea. And I look out the window, it's 50 degrees Celsius outside. And then the Indian laborers working in slave like conditions. And I just thought the only difference between us is just where I was born. I thought that was, it was so unfair. And that was the idea for the first story. And anyway, so. And I was terrified of being boring. So I thought if I wrote stories that were quite dark with a twist, it wouldn't be boring. Right. Intense was Twisted Dark. And it's. And the thing is because I said earlier I like stories I reread. Twisted Dark is designed to be reread. It's, there's, there's 120 recurring characters and they all interconnect every story but not in the right time sequence. So it's a puzzle. I've known people. There's eight volumes so far. I know a few people read the whole thing 10 times and they figure out the connections, so. But not everyone will do so every story should work on its own. But if you want to reread it, then you. Oh, that's the guy. Actually, this is a fun point. In the office, there was a guy. This is back on volume four came out and I saw him and he read one story and I saw him like think. And he went across the library and took out volume two and referenced the story and he pointed like he figured out the connection. I was delighted. I was like, yeah, that's fantastic. Well, it reminds me like you mentioned Watchmen, which, especially if you go back and you start reading those before Watchmen, you start seeing threads that. That's a series that I know gets a little bit of heat. I actually loved before Watchmen, adding that into the Watchmen universe. But what you're talking about here is the, the feeling I had reading the Sandman series the first time because I was. I was reading before it had ended. I'm reading it and I'm seeing like recurring characters, but they're standalone stories. Each graphic novel is its own and. And by the end, you're so invested in the overarching story that all of it becomes one big, you know, Charcuterie of Sandman, you know, and you get to the end, you're like, oh, wow. Like it's such a satisfying experience. Now do you see an end game for Twisted Dark? Oh yeah. I've written the last story. You have? Okay, great. How many volumes is it going to end up being, or can you tell us? Probably 18. But the thing is, the problem is, honestly, I don't. George R.R. martin IT ideas are not a problem for me. I have so many story ideas, but so many of them are just okay, this character, like this sub thread, is that. That where the main plot line. I love to think some people don't care about the story. They may be good stories. But why is the main plot going? Yeah, so it's a balance between. So what I think I have to do, I'm actually being sneaky about it. So I have to focus more on the main plot line and then I have spin off characters. So the next volume actually is not Twisted Dog Volume 9. It's one of my. It's my favorite character called Amy and it's called Twisted Amy. And it's all stories about her as she gets two years older each time because she. Someone like I think Hussein Bolt was the fastest man who's ever lived, in my opinion. Probably right. Someone would have been the strongest man who ever lived. Someone probably Da Vinci. The most multi platform intelligent person. Right. She is the most selfish person who's ever lived. Oh, wow, that's saying something. Yeah. So. And she's a monster at age six. And every story is two years as she gets age and what she does and it's, it's. Anyway, so that's. But then the thing is, those stories are interesting to me, but they don't advance the main plot line. Right. Except for one of them. So it's a balance you have to do. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me once again of Sandman or if you were an X Files fan, how they had the Monster of the week episodes. They had things that. But they put little things in that were advancing the main theme or the main story point. The problem there is it lost its way. You're not losing your way now. You obviously are a plotter, then you're not going by the seat of your pants. You have this plotted out. You should see my matrix. I've got 120 characters across here. I've got all the stories here and it fits through and I show people at maximum zoom and people are like, wow. So I wrote three stories, I had to add it into matrix and to make sure the timeline's all sort out. Takes me an hour to add three stories. And just to fix it, you have to move everything around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I own a huge podcast network, believe it or not. Trying to, trying to. Not even putting plots together, trying to fit the schedule and the way these. It was. I was executive producing 150 different podcasts and I know it seems like. Yeah, but they're just podcasts. It. It's not impossible. You're looking at the person who did it. And we. And this is our 14th year, but I'm not doing that many shows any longer. But wait, wait, wait. You were doing this? Oh, no, no, I was, I was, I was executive producing all of it. I was, I was editing. Roughly. I. I think at the height I was doing 36 shows a week that I was editing, plus doing all the social media, all the marketing, all of it. I bent time. I'd step into my TARDIS and change things around and every once in a while something would break and I'd end up with a TARDIS that hated me. But I did bend time, so. So anyway, I get that though. I had a matrix there and you'd have to go, I have to put this here. I have to say this at this time, we have to make this work. And it. It is so complicated. In the beginning, you can be a pantser. By the end, you cannot. And what you're describing here is you cannot. But you also said you were an engineer, correct? Yeah. That type of brain is not a pantser type brain. Usually. No. But I have a weird. So first of all, geeky. I don't write in Word. I write in Excel. Interesting. I actually do because I have. I can just put. I put a one in one column, and then that means it's a new page and it numbers all the other panels. So it's 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4. Then there's one 2.1. So you know, instantly there's four panels on page one. I don't have to write page one is for. And if I need to change number of pages, it's instant. And it gives me data. It tells me you've got this Flags color. But we've got three pages in a row with the same number of panels or. Oh, that's a great way to do it because you can keep changing up your visuals. I get it. This is wonderful. What a great tip. Now, but you write it initially in. I write it in word to get the ideas out. But it's for the script format, because then I have a column here. This is what I want to be drawn. This is what the dialogue is. This is what the colors are for this panel. Each panel goes along that way. Sometimes I don't fill in what's to be drawn because let the artist figure it out. But I go, it's important that this clothing is this color because the love interest introduced later will have the same color clothing. So this person's tie will be her color shoes or handbag. And I. Or the mood here. Now the background here, don't be realistic. Make it red, because this is dramatic. Those sort of notes for the colors or whatever. That's fantastic. And what a great tool for your artists, too, to be able to go back and see all of that as opposed to like, okay, here's my. It's almost like having a show bible, but it's a running show bible. So here's the interesting thing. Artists love it. Colorists like it. You know who hates it? Investors. Oh, okay. Because they can't understand the format. It's not used. It's not a traditional format. Sure, yeah. And actors. I'm working with some famous actors on certain titles. And they, they struggle to read it. So I have to like put it into screenplay format. I'm like, that's, yeah. But yeah, even that I've written screenplays and even that when you're talking actors, well, that's not the format that I'm used to. It's like, no, this is the traditional format of blah, blah, blah. No, no, I, I read this Sid, whatever and it Dr. Crazy. Drives you crazy. So yeah, actors, I already knew you were going to say they were a problem. By the way, I was a professional actor for 12 years. So you know, I'm a problem too. I already knew that. But that was just, that was from our first conversation. That was from the first moment we spoke. You went, yeah, I got this guy. I want to talk about something on your website that I find really intriguing too. If you go to twisted comics.co.uk this is the Twisted Comics webpage. And I was looking around looking, you've got all these different, you know, styles of books and love it, right? Love it, love the artwork, love everything going on here. And then I saw something now, now we're going to get into marketing. Rob for a second. You have courses on here? Yeah. I am now a huge fan, Neil. Like I wasn't before, but now I'm a huge fan. I think this is a brilliant marketing tactic. Those of you that are comic creators have a comic company or individual having an educational section to what you do is critical for SEO. It is critical. See, I told you marketing guy. I have a show that's one of the few shows I still have is all about marketing. This is so brilliant. I love. I went to it right away. I saw comic making course free. I'm like, well that's a no brainer. You got to sign up for that. How to make comics. Now you're getting into something deeper. It's something people are going to pay for. You've got to. Yeah, I mean it well worth it. I think this is fantastic. Now you teach these courses, correct? I do. It's fun. I gave a guest lecture at a university in the UK that specializes in comics. And afterwards two people came up to me and said I learned more in that one hour than I have in the last year of this course. Y because I'm just teaching practically what I do and what it makes sense. And I, because like, like I write, I build models for everything. So I believe. And I built models because I have to. When I first started, artists would send stuff to me and I didn't like it. But if you If I send a script to someone, they say, I don't like it. Well, that's not useful. Neither is saying, I loved it, right? Like, I loved it because of this, or I didn't like it because of that. Okay. Now I can work with something I understand. Okay, that's good. So I built models to explain all the elements I see to writing, to art, to coloring, to lettering. And then each of those components, you break it down even further. So very quickly, I'll explain just which one do you want? Do you want artists, or do you want colors? Or do you want writing? Let's do writing. Okay, so they ignore the premise, right? Say you're watching TV and ignoring the visual elements. If you're switching channels before Netflix, just clicking through, the first thing you notice is the dialogue. If the dialogue is boring or stupid, you'll just change channel, right? The next is the plot or genre. Because, like, oh, it's a western, I'm in. Okay. Or it's a horror film, or I don't watch it, or it's action, it's a romance, it's comedy. And then is it interesting? Is it good? Is it a good form of that genre? I want to see what happens next. What keeps going back week after week are the characters. This character's hot, but this character is fascinating. I hate this character. But you have an emotional reaction to them, and what gets you going, what gets you fully invested? What people dress up as stormtroopers or. The Night's Watch is the universe that's been built, right? Where is it all set? And that can just be in a police station. It can be in hospital. It could be an expensive medieval world, whatever. But it's where it's set. And how rich is that? And then even if you have all those four, it's like having a great joke. Someone can tell it really well, other people can't. They'll butcher it. So you need to know how to tell it. So those are the five elements to writing for me. Dialogue, plot, character, universe, and storytelling. And I rank everything when I work with other writers on a scale of minus one to plus two. Minus one is bad, zero is average. One is good, two is excellent. So if you take Game of Thrones, the first couple of seasons, which I loved, right? Dialogue, excellent. Plus two for sure. Like, winter is coming, I drink and I know things. You put on a T shirt, everyone knows it, right? That's dialogue, plot, wow. Stuff that happens, and you really want what happens next. Okay, then characters so complex, so interesting, so varied, and the Universe, the heraldry. It's so well thought out, and they told it well. That gets a 10 out of 10. Now, me, if I'm judging myself on my best day, I give myself 5 out of 10 because I've average universe, I have average characters, I have excellent plot, I have excellent storytelling, and I've good dialogue. So I get 5 out of 10. But. So I like to work with other writers for. I'm doing long stories where their focus is the characters. They can't make a story to save their lives, but they have interesting characters or someone else who's like, world building. And that's being honest about where my strengths and weaknesses are. So I build models for everything. So when I judge artists for people, I give feedback. I explain why I have a problem with it, and I think it wants to know why the character is bad or why the plot is bad. Well, I break that down even further. I love it. I love it. Once again, your engineer brain is trying to create art. And I love it because it obviously is. When you. When you work with artists, do you find that they appreciate that as much? It depends on the artist. So I actually have a friend of mine. I wouldn't say his name. Amrit Birdie. And I think some of his art's fantastic. His storytelling is awful, awful, awful. Good thing he didn't say his name. It's terrible. But, like. And I worked in a story with him, and he. There was a. The character the woman was supposed to be backing away from, the man is here. He's protecting his girlfriend because the bad guy's there, and the guy's saying, stay back, stay back. And the girlfriend's on this side. Why did she just move? Neil, the composition looks better this way. Yeah. Okay. It may look better artistically, but not in a storytelling fashion. Right. And then that's a problem. And he goes. But it looks. And so if he's left his own devices, his stuff would look amazing, but doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense. And so he. And he doesn't like taking feedback from me. But when I first met him, I was actually at New York Comic Con, and he asked for feedback on his art. So I told him the truth, and he was pissed off for three years. And after three years, actually. Actually, you're right. But he does not like feedback. And to be fair to him, he is brilliant at what he does. So, you know, it's like. I don't know. It's like Michael Bay or Zack Snyder. They're visually brilliant, but their stories yeah, they. They don't know how to. How to write a complex story, that is for sure. But visually, my God, some of the stuff is astounding. Yeah, exactly so. And some people don't care about stories. This is important. Some people don't want. They just want to switch their brain offs and be entertained with respect. Why do you think the Transformer movies have been so big? I mean, there's. It's just visuals. There's. What I mean, what is really going on there? You know what I mean? I can't watch them. I've never watched this thing. I've only managed. I couldn't finish any of them. So there's only one. There's only one that I would recommend because I. I thought that Bumblebee was different. It was like it's in its own universe. And I was like, okay, now this is an interesting story. I don't know who directed it. It wasn't Michael Bay. It's the one where after the series had pretty much gone off the rails, incredibly, they did this one shot about Bumblebee, different director. I think it's like Selena Gomez or somebody stars in it. And it's. It's got heart. It's got great characters. There's an interesting story. There's all this visual stuff that I'm like. It's not over circuiting my brain like the other ones did. So that's the only one I recommend. And that's the one. If we go with your matrix, that's the only one that. That gets closer to a 10, whereas the other ones might be closer to a 4. Well, you see, but, you see, I wouldn't even give them that highest score. But on the visual side, the artistic side, that's different. So they'd scored excellent on that. That's where I was giving them the extra points. Yeah. Oh, but you've got the negatives. I forgot. You have the negative one. Oh, boy. Things just got real ugly there for poor Michael Bay. Sorry, Michael Bay. Yeah. You get somebody like. Like Matt Reeves, who everything I see from him, I watch his plan of the ape stuff. I watch his Batman stuff. I'm like, I. I'm drawn in. He's taking characters that he's. This is an ape. How do I. All of a sudden. How am I crying over an ape? That is literally just ape number six in the story. And I'm like, wait a minute. I just attached to this thing. It's crazy. Now, also, that scene with the car chase in Batman was phenomenal. Phenomenal. Yeah. So you take. Okay. I did have some plot issues with the Batman. I did. Oh, sure. And there's some pacing issues, too. Yes, I agree. But visually, like, man, he also knocked out the park and the way he's taken the Riddler, I thought was. Was so good. Yeah, that was a different take. That was really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so enough about the Batman. This is not. Sorry, I go off topic. I just. This is. I like having fun conversations. So you do love. Obviously you're drawn to. I'm going to throw an umbrella over it. But I'm not crazy about the umbrella. You are drawn to horror. And the reason I'm not crazy about that as an umbrella is you're doing sci fi. You're doing all these things. And I think that, that, like, I interview a lot of authors, right? And I've been interviewing a lot of horror authors. And when I ask them about horror mixing into other genres, some of them are like, no, no, it's all horror. And a lot of them are like, well, yeah, horror elements are in romance and horror elements are in this and horror. It's like, it's. I like when there's the cross genre, and I hate when everything is pigeonholed. What I see in your stuff is not pigeonholed. You're dealing in maybe fantastical, maybe troubling. I think there is horror there. But would you consider yourself a horror guy or are you thinking, no, it's because, like, Black Mirror, I wouldn't call that horror either. I wouldn't call it sci fi, that's for sure. So I call myself a psychological thriller writer. I think that's accurate. But it's interesting. I was on a panel at Comic Con London just a couple of weeks ago, and there was a horror panel and I was asked to talk. I told, look, guys, I had to look up definition of horror because I don't. Because I don't actually. I don't watch horror. I get terror. I saw the Ring when I was living in Houston with friends in the daytime. If I saw that in the countryside in England at night, on my own, I would have died. Well, this conversation isn't so good. I'm glad you didn't see it that way. I'm glad you're not dead. I don't like being scared. I don't like. I don't get it. Like, it stays with you afterwards. And like, I don't. I don't like it. I don't like horror, but I love horror in books and comics. It's not visceral. The only comic that ever actually made me feel creeped out was Uzumaki by Junji Ito. Brilliant by the way, if you like horror. So. But I looked up what horror meant and it's like a sense of unease and dread about what's gonna happen next. And yes, I do do that. So technically I guess I'm a horror writer. I just don't consider myself one because I don't do my stuff is all very realistic. It could be happening next door to you, you realizing it. Sure. Although you do play in some sci fi too. Well yeah, but all my sci fi is hard sci fi. Not, not. I don't do Star Wars, I do Star Trek. Right. Wouldn't you say it's just a different sandbox. But you're still a psychological thriller writer. You're just playing in different sandboxes. Well, yeah. So, okay, I wrote once, I don't get cancelled, but so I wrote one story which this woman is. Her husband keeps going to other planets in the sci fi thing for work and she's convinced he's having affairs. That's why he goes. And so she has a temporary surgery thing to change herself to be male. And the first thing she tries to do is pee because she wants to see what it's like and she misses and everything, it's funny. And then, then she wants to try and masturbate but then she realizes, well, she's still straight so she, it doesn't work. What she was trying to watch, she was trying to watch her husband's porn, whatever. And then she goes out and she meets her husband and he's there in the hotel lobby of this other bar and she goes and says hi, can I buy a drink? And then there are two female, two females that are quite attractive and they start talking and he says they're, you know, having a good time and then the girls go to the loon and she says as a man to him, why don't you, you know. No, no, I'm married. I love my wife. And her heart just melts. She went to a lot of effort for that to happen. Well, it gets worse because though happens then is they carry on drinking and she has so much fun with her husband and he's like. Has more fun with her and he's not going to hook up with these girls and they end up getting drunk together and he's actually physically bigger, she's physically bigger than him as the body she's got helps into his room. And then she loves her husband so much and they Kiss and end up having sex together. Oh. In the morning, he freaks out like, I, A, I'm straight. B, I'm married. And oh, oh, God, I have to tell my wife. Oh, my God, she'll leave me. Oh, God. And she's like, gonna be okay. No, no. And he calls her and then his. Her phone goes off. It's. He's. What the. And then she does the worst thing possible. She tells him the truth. Oh, boy. And then what happens next? I'm not going to tell you, but there's a twist and it's quite dramatic. So that's. That's sci fi, but it's psychological. It's like. Yeah, right, right. You actually remind me. Your writing reminds me of my favorite type of science fiction or fantasy or. I mean, I read a lot of these genres and take somebody like a Theodore Sturgeon or Philip K. Dick. Yeah, they're sci fi, but they're doing the same thing. They're giving you the psychological, the like. I remember reading Case and Dreamer, and on the surface it's a Star Trek episode. When you get to the end of it, you're like, that. That was not. Sorry, are you rage quitting? Is that what's going on here? No, no, no, no. You gave me a name I hadn't heard of. Philip K. Dick. I like his work. So what's the other name? Theodore Sturgeon. I've never heard of that. Oh, we just became best friends. When you read Theodore Sturgeon, you're going to go, oh, he wrote for Star Trek as well back in the 60s. He is one of, like, Philip K. Dick's contemporaries. This is great. Great. Filing is worth. This interview is worth it. Maybe. I do wish you would watch the Ring. During the day or at night? At night. Yeah. No, you're gonna love Theater Surgeon. A lot of. A lot of paperbacks out there. The one that I just mentioned, start there. It's called Case and Dreamer. And it's a. It's a science fiction story, takes place on another planet. But you'll read it and go, oh, I get what you're talking about. I get why you. I mean, it stayed with me. It's staying with me in the moment. That's. That's what I look for. Stays with you. Okay, so let's cover a couple more things real quickly here because we're running out of time, but. Oh, my God, do I want to talk to you more. Neil Gibson, you can find his website@ twisted comics.cu.uk I stumbled through it. It's a different letter comics.co.uk what we say in the UK is.co.uk right? But if I don't spell it, people go, did he say.com.uk did he say, with Google, just type in Twisted Comics. You'll find us. You'll find it. There you go. And you can also support the Kickstarter that we mentioned. Go to the Kickstarter. Look up Black Mirror Comic. Look up Black Mirror. Look up Twisted Comics. I bet you could even type in Neil Gibson and it might pop up there as well. But you want to get in on that and support, support the, the Kickstarter for the Black Mirror. Absolutely. It's fantastic. I've had such a great time talking to you now here. I got. I got one more question for you, and this is going to be a rough one. This is one that I ask people on alley chats. But you're like me. You've been to all the cons. You speak at all the cons. Here's the question. Who is the number one person that you would love, no restrictors, dead or alive, would love to sit down and have a conversation with. From a comic Con. From a Comic Con, or that you would meet at a Comic Con, because that's a particular type of person. This is a tough one. So are you talking about creators? Well, whatever you think. I've had. I mean, I've had names. Somebody could say your name. I want to hear. Who is it that you would most want to meet at a convention, sit down and have a conversation with you? See, I'm off the theory of don't never meet your heroes. Okay. So I was once offered to meet Graham Norton. I don't know if you know who he is. Of course I love Graham Norton. He's my favorite. Apart from my family, he's given me more joy than anyone else. Right. He's. He's a laugh man. He's great. Yeah. So. And I was offered a chance to meet him and I. This was 10 years ago. I said, no, thank you. Because I enjoy him so much on the tv, in case he wasn't as nice in real life. I don't want to ruin it. Right. Or it changes your. Because now you have that personal connection. You see them slightly differently, even if it's not bad. Yes, exactly. So they're human to you then. Yeah. So I don't know who I'd like to meet from Comic Con. It's probably. Probably be, if I'm honest, not even a comic book creator. It'd be an actor who's famous who goes to comic Cons. I said no restrictors. Who is it? Probably Robert Downey Jr. Because he's just a legend. And I like Chris Hemsworth as well. I mean, I have a feeling they'd be fun to talk to too, right? I think he would, because I think he's also. Yeah, well, he's extremely talented, but also charming as well, so it'd be fun. But also he has some wisdom behind him, I think, to be able to, you know. And he is like the banter they have. Some of these people you can hear, like George Clooney. He's always a character. He has fun doing things. Like there's a scene in Avengers where he offers Mark Ruffalo as Hulk a dried blueberry from a bag. And that wasn't in the script. Just like. Because he just kept hiding snacks around the set. Right. He walk around, just take one there. And just like, that kind of character, there's having fun behind the scenes. Yeah. It's like, this is a fun conversation. Right. You want to have fun with the person as well as be interested in what they've done. Right, Right. Yeah. And I think. I think that's a good one. In fact, believe it or not, that's the first time Robert Downey Jr. Has been brought up. When I asked that question, and I'm surprised by that, because I would think a lot of people would want him. Have a conversation with him. I'd want to ask about that Elton John video he did. Remember what he told me? Why would you want to ask about that? Because it was so weird. It was right after he had all the drug issues and he was kind of on the outs. It was before Iron Man. And then you see this video, and there's so much emotion in it, and he's just so raw. And I'm like, I would love to know. Like, do you look back on that as, like, a pivotal moment? Is that a. Something that meant a lot and still means a lot to you, or is it like. No, I was a hired actor. I did that thing. I would love to know. I. I'm sure. I'm sure there's a lot more depth to that. And he probably has a great story about Elton John. You know, he's that guy that would have that story. Yeah, yeah. That reminds me of Martin Sheen in Apocalypse Now. One of the opening scenes, he gets drunk in a hotel room and he smashes a mirror and he actually cuts his hand. Yeah. Because that's. He actually got drunk and did it. Right. And so Lawrence Olivier said to him, so I heard you actually got drunk and cut your hand. Is that true? Well, she was kind of proud of his method acting. Yes. Yes, that's true. So if he tried acting, There's a. There's a similar story, and I'm going to get it wrong, so I'm only going to put it out there. But there's a similar story when. When. And is it Lawrence Olivier who was in Marathon man with Justin Hoffman? I can't remember. I can't remember. But same thing. Dustin Hoffman is method acting for Marathon man, and he's like, way deep into character, and the. The actor, and I can't remember who it is, just said to him, like. Like he wanted to know, like, what. What's the secret to your great acting? And he said, I memorize the lines. And I say, Good point, because you do. So. Okay, we're gonna end this. Neil, this was a true pleasure. I had so much fun speaking with you. I'm sure we'll encounter each other at a ComicCon at some point. Thank you for being on Alley Chats. Good luck with the Kickstarter. As you have these in the future, let me know. We'll always have you on it as an open door for you. We're gonna do a rewatch of the Ring together. It's gonna. No, no, no. Fabulous. I have one story about the Ring. When we saw it, we saw. We took my nephew way too young to see it. Aunt and uncle, you do that, right? And my. Afterwards, my wife was terrified by this movie, right? We get out, and my little nephew says, aunt Maeve, you said the F word a lot. She did, she did. That is a terrifying movie. So there you go once again. Neil, this was great. Thank you so much. Hey, what's the best place for people to interact with you? So we have a social. The handle is ng. That's for Neil Gibson. Twisted Comics. Ng. Twisted Comics. That's in all the socials. But there's also. Here's my socials, which is twisted, Neil. But I'll be honest with you, I don't do social media. I've never understood it. I don't like it because even when I start doing it, I suddenly have to respond to all these messages. And then I get, oh, that's interesting. I click on this night and an hour is gone. I've done nothing. So I don't want to use social media. But I do email. So I get over 200 emails every day I have to respond to. So that's the best way. If you want to contact me? Yeah. Or go meet him at a Comic Con, go see his panels, and then go up and shake hands. Apparently, people really like my panels, my talks at Comic Con, so they're quite popular. So, yes, do that if you're at NeoComicon. I'll see you there. Are you at Neo Comic Con? No, in fact, I've never been, but my daughter is now going to be going to school in New York, so chances have gotten a lot better. I used to get asked to go, but it just never lined up. But that's what we do is my family and I are really known for doing panels, so I know all the panelists at these things. So New York Comic Con, since she's there, I'll probably be applying or accepting an offer to do panels, so maybe that's how we connect. Well, if you. You. If you invite me to be on your panel, I'd be delighted to do it. I'm probably doing a talk about Black Mirror, in which case you're very welcome to come along and talk about. Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay. It is a date. We don't have a date. You know what? Just go to Twisted Comics Co uk. See UK Man. Come on and follow him. Support the Kickstarter. Neil, this was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. This is great fun. I appreciate it. Thank you.