How Private Equity CMOs Reduce Churn and Drive Revenue Growth

But the first thing I do with clients is figure out segments of your existing customer base. Looking at three ratios initially, win loss ratio, which shows which customer which prospects are easiest to get, gross revenue retention, which prospects are easiest to keep and net revenue retention, which prospects are easiest to grow, which customers are easiest to grow. Hi everyone. Welcome back to the business of success. You hear me talk a lot about customer success and the importance of really defining customer experiences post sale. I have the pleasure of talking to someone who actually thinks beyond post sale to pre sale and really as an advocate for the customer in the marketing stage. And so welcome Allan Gonsenhauser. I am so glad to have met you kind of peripherally but you were doing a talk on how folks like us fractionals consultants can best work with PE firms and I was really interested in that work. But subsequently I joined your newsletter and that's when I really started to understand how you think. Which is wonderful to have you know you here to talk more about that. So official welcome and please introduce. My pleasure. Thank you for the invite. Good afternoon. I'm Alan Gunsenhauser. I'm in the Boston metropolitan area. Boston west of Boston, Massachusetts. I started by getting my due degrees in finance and then I got into marketing very early in my career. So I've been a chief Marketing officer seven times at full time companies P and L, general manager at three companies. Then I spent six years with serious decisions in Forrester mentoring and coaching CMOs and marketing leaders. And I in my time there and then also in my own business which I'll tell you about the last decade I've mentored and coached over 150 Chief Marketing Officers and Marketing VPs I love doing. And then so I stayed with Serious Decisions two years after Forrester acquired them. After two years I left and I started my own company. My company is demandrevenue. Com. It's just how it sounds. And for the last five years I just had my fifth anniversary on April 1st. So for five years now I've been doing three things. So I coach and mentor. I continue coaching and mentoring CMOs and marketing leaders. I've come on as an interim CMO four times in the past five years for private equity portfolio companies. And I do go to market advisory. So I help companies with go to market alignment, fixing churn issues, getting marketing and sales on the same page, go to Market Transformations and net promoter score 3.0 is kind of instead of using NPS as a vanity metric, what do you do with what customers are telling you to improve the customer Experience lower churn creating a, an awesome and remarkable customer experience which drives future financial results. So I love also bringing finance and marketing together. I don't think there's enough of that. And so I, I've always gotten along well with CFOs and most of my work is either with private equity portfolio companies or CMOs at those companies and other companies that I coach and mentor or help with projects. So that's, that's what I do. Wow. Such a rich journey. And how, I mean you're a seven time CMO before you even launched your own business. So you definitely have the deep knowledge and I do love that tie back to finance. I think many functions are sort of sometimes missing financial core basics. Right. That you have a really strong kind of root in. I mean we can talk about that all day, so we'll get into a little bit more. But actually you kind of do refer to yourself as a customer capitalist. I do for that terminology used and elaborate a bit on that. What does that mean in practice and how does this shift how people typically think about, you know, the customer or even just marketing traditional forms of marketing. So revenue and profitability and all those things are in the rearview mirror. How do you plan for future revenue and profitability? And I will say that is based on the quality of your customer relationships. It's based on your ability to define your ideal customer profile in a way that says okay, what prospects are the easiest to get that would be win loss ratio on the front end, easiest to keep, that would be gross revenue retention and easiest to grow net revenue retention. And if you look at companies that have a net revenue retention of 120% or more and bring in new customers from advocates, those are really, really healthy companies. I, you know, I say that if you do the right things by customers and yes, you mentioned, you know, pre sales, post sale. So the customer experience really begins when, when before someone is a prospect, when they're not even in a buying mode but they hear about you and they're developing, you know, which companies they want to do business with that have brand gravity for them, you know, before they, they come in market. And then when they come in market they have a list of four to five vendors they're interested in because they've been consuming their content. And 95% of the time one of those vendors wins. So brand gravity is important on the front end. And then when people become customers, the process and then the onboarding for 60 days, all that's really critical to beginning a, a leadership customer experience. And Everything that comes after that. But if you look at bringing on new clients that stay with you and grow with you, that's the best way to predict your future financial performance. Yeah, well, you, you're speaking the language that I love to hear. And I mean, I've heard it truly at, you know, I've heard like VCs at a venture conference tell early stage companies, right. Like, you really need to think about retaining the cost, you know, even if they're freemiums that you start with, like retain. I guess. How do you. What's your methodology for actually convincing early sales marketers? Right. Like you're working with these portfolio companies. People are just focused so heavily on point of sale. Right. That initial sale. How are you bringing NRR into the conversation at these stages and helping them to understand the value? The companies I work with tend to be over 100 million into a billion. Okay. And so they have a customer base. So one of the first questions I ask is, is there a churn issue? Are we losing customers and what's the impact of that? You know, one point in churn is huge financially. Yes. So oftentimes I find companies haven't focused on that enough, you know. Oh, we're worried about current quarter. Well, you know, what about next, what about next year? What about next quarter? You know, you know, you know, and if you can't keep, if you bring on customers and you have heroics at the end of the quarter to make your plan, it may look good from a pipeline standpoint. But if those customers churn and they don't grow, you're not bringing on growth, you're bringing on debt. May look like growth on the front end, but you're bringing on debt. So I think it's all about having a balanced perspective on short versus long term growth, and you need to consider both. And that's where a lot of things factor into it. And many companies lose sight of it because they're just, you know, they're focused on the next quarter and making the plan. And that can be myopic, especially if you're bringing on customers you can't keep. Yeah. It's not good for your sales, your financial performance or your brand. Yeah, absolutely. And I, so I, on the flip side, work with a lot of earlier stage companies. Right. So probably before I would say zero to 100 million. Okay. So kind of the other side of the spectrum. But what you're speaking to. Right. Becomes a problem often at these later stages. Right. This turn issue. Oh, now I got to call somebody in to Help me fix it. That turnipulator is costly. You can. And what I'm kind of doing with this podcast too is trying to help people understand the things that you correct. At a hundred million, you can start to build towards with the right mentality. Right. And early. Let's talk about. Okay, so you've talked about this, right? Like the right customer, the icp. So we all know this language. Not everyone understands ideal customer profile. Talk a little bit about that and what are some of the fundamentals that are important that everyone has to kind of do together to make this effort towards ideal customer profile work? Yes. And can I say something else first, because you mentioned startups. So because you work a lot with startups and smaller companies, I would say companies go through three inflection points or two when they start off as a startup. You want to get problem market fit. You want to know that you can fix problems people care about and they're willing to pay for. I love that. I've heard that before, so that's cool. Thank you. At that stage, you're going to be doing a lot of experimenting. You're going to try a lot of things. You'll probably bring on customers that will churn because you're trying to figure it out, you know. So the questions you ask and what you're trying to achieve at that point naturally is you've got a laboratory, you're trying to find what the right formula is. If you're successful there, you go into the next pivot point, which is product market fit. That's where you need to begin to scale and create processes to grow and scale your business, which is different than the first phase. And that's where you can get into some of these issues with churn and, you know, not keeping customers and looking at retention and all that. If you're very successful there for a while with, you know, and you build more products, then you get into something called platform market fit. And with platform market fit, most of your sales are with current customers and not all, but a very high percent tend to be with current customers. You tend to have a more complex organization. You're doing more things. So the questions you ask and the competencies you need at each of those three stages are different. So understanding that and how the business changes through those deflection points is different. So, sorry, I just, I just thought that would be helpful since you mentioned startups. No, I didn't think about. In terms of your question on icp. Yeah, so that's probably the biggest problem I see companies have they think they know their icp, but it's not aligned and it's not aligned cross functionally. That's the biggest issue I see with companies is lack of alignment and their stats. You know, companies that are well aligned and stay aligned grow 19% F faster and are 15% more profitable. A lot of companies may figure out their icp. Well, we want to be in this business. The CEO likes that business. Or you know, our, most of our sales last year came from this segment, you know, or a lot of other ways. I've got a presentation I'm going to give next month that talks about the eight ways that a lot of companies are figuring out icp. They should change. So I, and what I recommend is two, two important things to figure out your icp. First is, and this is when you have customers and you've got customer cohorts you can look at. But the first thing I do with clients is figure out segments of your existing customer base. Looking at three ratios initially. Win loss ratio, which shows which customer, which prospects are easiest to get, gross revenue retention, which prospects are easiest to keep and net revenue retention, which prospects are easiest to grow, which customers are easiest to grow. So if you can triangulate those customers that you can get keep and grow better than other segments, that's a really good start of what, you know, what some of your ICPs might be. That's like step one, step two is to do a qualitative analysis of different potential segments and the market. Economic headwinds and tailwinds. Is the segment growing? Are they spending money? Do they have needs? You can, you can deliver on which segments are the most attractive of an external market capability and then look at your internal market capabilities today to be successful. Can we reach the market? Do we know who they are? Do we have lists of people in that market? Do we have the right value proposition? Do we have the right sales channels of distribution to reach that market? Do we have the right products and services? Are our products and services what they need and other internal factors. And then you look at the external attractiveness by segment to your current capabilities to be successful. If the two match great market segments and you're, you can hit it out of the park. Now invest in that segment. If it's a great market opportunity given segment, but you're not quite ready, wait until you are ready until you go after it. If the market isn't growing that much but you're really doing well, you're very well set up, then you farm the base and if neither are true if it's a market segment that's not growing, that, you know, doesn't, you know, doesn't have real tailwinds and you're not set up to be successful anyway, you don't put any resources towards them. And so if you put those two things together, you know, take a look at customer cohorts that are easiest to get, keep and grow and then look at market forces and your internal capabilities. That's how I would say you develop the right icp. And most companies aren't doing it that way and should. And then the second thing is how do once you do that and it's not a marketing exercise, it's a cross functional exercise. Everybody has to be bought in marketing, sales, product, customer success, the cfo, the CEO. It's really a corporate, you know, strategy that's important. And then, and then it's how you govern that. When you're getting to the end of the quarter and you need sales to, you know, make the quarter, is the sales organization going to, you know, make heroic efforts to just make the plan. But with non ICP customers and you have a couple of options on how to handle that. You know, it could be a, you know, kind of a Machiavellian option. You don't comp them anything if it's not ICP or you know, you, you bonus them a lot more if it is in the ICP or something. But, but there are ways of dealing with that and that's, I sometimes work with clients that way, but I find that is one of the biggest issues that companies don't even realize they have an ICP issue. But they do. Yeah, it's like, you know, ready, aim, fire a lot, fire before they're really aiming properly and targeting. Ready, fire, aim. It's actually, it's funny because in another sense I've spoken to somebody who says that was what their strategy was. But when it comes to, you know, trying out things personally, but not the best strategy in a business. No, you, you leaned into incentives because actually I was going to follow into that question of what's the best way to, you know, communicate with or share with a marketing organization. Right. Or a sales organization. Here's why it's important to care about X and customer value and long term growth. So anecdotally I, I worked at a company where we did actually move some of the sales incentives around. They took some of the short term incentives and made long term incentives. Right. But like you get X part of the bonus when somebody stays a year and like people were up in arms, right. A bunch of people left during that period because they're like, no, no, no. But incentives drive behavior. So have you, I, I'm just curious, what. Have you seen other. I know you named a couple tactics maybe that haven't worked. I'd love to hear if you've seen anything that just went awry. Well, I think if you just say, you know, hey, if it's not icp, you're not going to get anything. I think that that'll create a lot of turnover. But, but you can, you know, if you do bring on accounts that are in the icp, you'll be bonused more and you'll have, you know, qualifiers and you'll make more. I think that, I mean any good sales rep understands a comp plan and that's how they're, they react. So the creation of the comp plan is really important because it drives behavior. I think the organization needs to agree on what kind of behaviors they want to engender and I think they should drive things towards making a remarkable customer experience. Getting retention, getting growth, getting advocates. And those should be, you know, and long term growth, lifetime value to customer acquisition cost and you know, and there should be both metrics that are tracked that define what good looks like consistently across the organization, across the functions and a comp plan that reflects that, that reflects the values of the organization. So, so do you know Fred Reichelt, who he is? Fred Reichelt is 20 years ago he created Net Promoter Score. Yes, yes, yes. Familiar. He's been at Bain for more than 40 years. Great thinker in the area, in the customer success and customer area. And he wrote a book that I think you would love. It's called Winning on Purpose. And there he has a lot of examples of organizations that get customer success and that are, that are really customer centric. And the conclusion it comes down to is 95% of organizations pay lip service to being customer centric. Oh yeah, we're customer centric. We put them first, but they don't act that way. And he's actually invested in the stock market in companies that, that he perceived in and made money. It's in his book, a lot of great examples. But I think, I think it's important to have cultures from the CEO on down, her or him have to model, you know, the kind of culture they want. And the reason I call myself a customer capitalist, I think there's nothing more important than that. If you treat your customers right and they know it, anyone from the, you know, sales rep to the CEO to the cfo, you know, need to make them feel special and that they're important and you care about what they say and you act. I mean, a lot of people have NPS as kind of a vanny metric or NPS is. This doesn't matter what the NPS is. It matters that you listen to their feedback and what they're telling you. You take action on it and then you communicate back to them that you listened. Yeah. Or other, you know, metrics like that should be, should be a way to drive continuous improvement in the organization or what are the metrics for any metric? Should be. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, well, I obviously agree with you. I've worked at organizations that got it wrong. Right. And I'm sure many people have seen a lot of those. Yeah. And you know, when you aren't investing in that, in that customer or even in, you know, a customer centric organization, you're building up and I think you call it long term debts. Right. You're essentially building up customer debt. Right. Essentially negative brand perceptions. Right. So what if you walk into an org fresh, what are some red flags that there that you see based on, you know, your initial assessments? What are red flags that someone has doing it the wrong way. Right. Building up debt, meaning customers that aren't really ICP that are likely going to churn at some point, maybe just hanging on with the contract. Curious what you've seen. One of the first things I look at is churn. Yep, churn. If there's a customer churn issue, I try to get behind it and see how serious the organization is about measuring it, improving it, understanding, you know, what the controllable elements of CHURN are, what they're doing. And I find very large organizations that, you know, kind of suck at that, unfortunately. And that's really important. So I mean, you know, when I come into an organization, I don't come in like I have any answer at all. First thing I do is talk to a lot of people and find out what they feel their successes are, their biggest successes, and, you know, where they think the gaps are, both the C suite and the marketing group. And then I give everybody three magic wishes and I ask them, what if you could do anything, what would they be? And I, I get a lot of information that way. I don't come in saying, you know, I know an answer or problems, but I come in to learn at first and not make assumptions. But one of the things I really like to learn is, you know, what's the level of churn and why and how much of it is controllable and what are the reasons, you know, and you can learn a lot. And what is the method for assessing customer satisfaction? Whether it's NPS or something, or something else. And okay, we do that. How often do we do it? How do we do it? What kind of feedback do we get from customers? Who acts on it? Is it acted on cross functionally? Who's responsible for it? I've helped a lot of organizations, leading them through that process and to really improve customer sat significantly. Lot of case studies doing that. I enjoy doing that. I think it's, you know, focusing on the customer is never a bad thing. Never. Yeah, no, I, I fully agree. But I like how you get into really influencing the organization in the, you know, kind of the pre sale stage. This is where we, in customer success, I think we often are sitting there grumbling about what happened. You have all the downstream. We have the downstream effects. Right. We inherit a lot of the problems. Which is a shame. Yeah. Which is kind of true. But, you know, but where you are thinking about building this cross functional process upfront, this is where you really are starting to drive, I think true results. And that can also be measured in customer advocacy. So I actually, I think I was just talking about this on LinkedIn the other day. Like, I actually think the best sales people are your customers. Right. So yes, where you build advocates, you've created now organic revenue. Right. That isn't even, doesn't even require a person to sell. Are there ways that you can either, you know, kind of operationalize this sort of thinking? Like, I know with customer success we often have to feed into marketing. Right. Like we have to be able to say, like, this is an advocate, let's go talk to them for a referral. So like, have you built those processes? Have you actually gone back and talked to the post sales teams and come back and said, let's now connect? Yes. In fact, if you look at Fred Reichelt's book Winning on Purpose, he comes out with a new metric. That's why I call it all NPS 3.0. His new metric is called earned growth. And earned growth is equal to net revenue retention plus the new business you get from customer referrals. Oh, I love this. Okay, very cool. I think you'd love that book. Yeah, no, I definitely, I think every CEO and CFO should read that book. And I'm not, you know, this is not a time for us to debate nps, but a lot of CS people have actually gone into the world of feeling that NPS has not driven success because it is a point in time metric. Right. It measures how somebody's feeling at that moment. But I love this concept of actually tying it to earned growth. Right. As a long term measure because we do need more of that longevity in our playbooks too, in customer success. And you should do NPS periodically quarterly or at least twice a year. But I think the reason sometimes NPS has gotten a bad name is a lot of people bastardize it. They just use it as a vanity metric, not as a plank to improve the customer experience and relationship, which is what Fred intended it to be, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. No, I mean, it's just funny, I, I remember a couple companies back that, you know, we had this really stellar nps, right. Because the only people that responded were the people that, that liked us. So those are also, you know, kind of problems, right? Of like, yeah, you have to not have bias in the sampling process or it doesn't mean anything. I'll give you a story. So I was buying, I was buying a, a car, an Audi. And, and I was in, talking to their head of sales, SVP of sales, whatever, and decided to buy the car. You know, we closed the deal and he said, oh, would you please fill out the survey? And you're going to give us a 10, aren't you? And I said, you're really telling me that? Then what value would anybody get from the survey if you're trying to bias the result? You know, it's like that's why it's gotten a bad name, things like that. And I think going back to what you said earlier, if you did in fact enable somebody to give you tens, right. Or guilt trip them into it, what you're doing also is you're ignoring the problems, right? So the problems are just going to stay there on this. Understanding the problem and negative feedback is like gold. Yeah, it's like gold. Because then if you do, if. Well, it's gold if you do something with it. Yeah. That's the whole point though. You need to take action where you can on what's controllable. Yeah. It's interesting because in early stage work where I tend to be spending a lot of my time, earlier stage, I should say, you know, it's not always very early. Sometimes you don't have a lot of churn and, and people are like, yay, we're celebrating this. I'm like, but here's the problem. We don't have enough to learn when something could go Wrong. Yeah, it's like a double edged sword with churn. It's, it's a wonderful tool. You don't want too much of it, of course, but it's a wonderful tool to also teach you how to. Yeah. And when you're early, stage some is okay. I mean, you know, because you're, you're still, you have a laboratory, you're trying to figure out what the right ICPs are. You don't know it yet, so there's obviously going to be some churn. But, but, but once you go from problem to products and you're trying to scale your business, that's where you need to pay a lot more attention to it. Yep, definitely. So, you know we're talking about different stages of businesses, right. Like I kind of like to be in the zero to a hundred million. You're at a hundred million and up. My whole purpose with this podcast is really to educate people on what building blocks can be put into place to better, you know, plan for your future. Right. Essentially. I mean not, not in a true way, but to make the job that you do obsolete. Right. Well, are there any trends that you notice amongst your, your customers that you go, oh gosh, if they fixed that, you know, five years ago, this would, I wouldn't be here doing this today. I mean, are you talking about career development or what companies do? Well, you know, companies overall. Right. Like across the board, you can talk organizationally, you can talk customers, whatever you've seen, it's, it's some of the stuff we've been talking about. You know, understanding getting your ICP down really well, making sure it's cross functional and everybody buys into it and they operate that way. And the organization, it becomes part of the culture of how the organization operates and what kind of customers you bring on and don't. And the other thing is, is getting aligned cross functionally on how you operate, how you work together, support each other, that you're in the same, you know, on the same page. And that also should extend into annual planning where you've got sales, marketing, product plans that are consistent, moving in the same direction, corporate direction that the ELT has and, and your three year long term plan, and that each annual plan gets you closer to that where you want to be three years from now and that you do that in a very aligned way. So I, I think, and I've seen it over alignment is really important. Having the right ICP and governing it is really important. And also picking the top three things you really want to hit out of the park, the top three. You know, you'll do 10 things, you'll be really busy, but pick the three that you want to absolutely do well and make sure you focus on them first. How does this play out? Because, you know, I'm going to kind of flip it a little bit. How does this play out with employee development as well? So obviously you're thinking long term. What are some things that you've seen at the companies that do it right that are also thinking about how they staff and considering AI today. Right. Like I think especially well. I'm glad we've had a conversation for half an hour and AI hasn't come up yet because usually comes up in the first five minutes. I had to throw it in just because I think it's disrupting how people think about people. Right? It is, it's disrupting everything, you know, and I kind of live on AI, Love cloud, cowork and all that. I've got all the models. I, you know, I don't get me started on that, but I don't want to get started on that. I think it's important that you know, it is disruptive. It's, it's not going anywhere and I think the employees need to be trained and you need to, you may want to bring on, you know, an AI specialist in marketing organizations also. But the biggest issue is change management. You have to give the people, give your folks the ability to experiment and see successes and create followership. So, so that's really important in people development. I think a couple of other things are really important. One is to give people cross functional experience. Look, I think I told you I started in finance. Then from finance I went into, I was in customer administration and internal consulting. Then I went into marketing, product marketing and channel marketing. Then I went into sales. I carried it back for Xerox for a few years. Then I was recruited by Panasonic and I was in higher level marketing positions working up to CMOs. I've had operations and my. I've been a general manager a couple times, three times. So my multifunction experience has always helped me appreciate the other functions and be a general, more of a business general manager, which has really helped me in marketing. My finance and sales experience has really helped me in marketing. So I think that's important. Important to give people the opportunity for cross functional experience. The other thing is maybe more of a cultural thing. So when you look at AI, AI is very good at convergent thinking, at summarizing data and assuming what happened in the past will happen. In the future. It's not really good at divergent thinking, thinking differently, breakthrough thinking. And you need humans for that and humans that can train the AI models and prompt them really well. For that, you probably want to bring in your organization some divergent thinkers. Divergent thinkers may not fit into your culture as well, but they're really, they, they may question a lot of things and, and why do we do this and why do we do that? Why don't we do it this way? But those, that's the kind of thinking organizations need, you know, to sometimes obviate themselves. Sometimes they have to, you know, think of Eastman Kodak or Blockbuster or, you know, that were killed by market changes, disruptive market changes. And some divergent thinkers may be autistic or, you know, neurodiverse may not be a good fit in the organization, but these people can be really, really valuable. And I think leaders need to recognize that diversity in the workforce is a really healthy thing, especially in the a. In the age of AI, when so many things are changing. Does that, does that make sense? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's a great answer. I wasn't expecting it, but I think you're absolutely spot on. And you know, even before true like AI, I was doing machine learning. My companies that I worked at, we had AI. We called it machine learning because nobody wanted to call it AI back in like, you know, 2018, 2019. How we got that was because there were individuals that didn't, you know, perfectly fit the mold of the regular day to day that was okay. They found research and experience and they brought these really cool technologies to us that we would have never known about. And so that is such a wonderful answer to hear, you know, for any organization, especially today, people are navigating a lot of change and quickly want to just go back to the point you mentioned about cross functional learning A lot of times and I hear this like people are using AI recruiting tools. They're like, I need someone with this exact experience to come into my role. You might actually sell yourself a little short. Right. On some of your, some of your opportunities. If you're only looking for people with the exact experience that you think that you need. Right. Sometimes it's learning. You're looking for Cinderella. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where the glass slipper flits. It's like, you know, recruiters generally are paid to get a perfect fit, but you know, that's not always the best thing. Yeah. And I found there's some leaders are strategic and understand that that sub diversity and different thinking. I Mean, I've been in different industries. I've been in healthcare. I've been in financial services, leasing and, you know, technology and health. Tech, medical, dental device. And I found because I've been in different industries, I've been able to bring things from one industry to another. People that would never work in our industry. Well, it did. Financing to dental implants. Oh, no, no. We would never finance though. Yeah. Grew sales. I proved that it worked because I, I knew how it worked, you know, because I'd seen it in different environments. So I just think diversity is a really good thing. I fully agree. Yeah. It's thinking outside the box. You know, it's something that we aren't going to solve with the modern AI tools. Like there might be, you know, future. But they're not going to be the out of the box thinkers just yet because they're consuming their database. Right. They assume what happened in the past will happen in the future unless they're really well prompted. I mean, there are ways to prompt them to help you with your strategic analysis, but it's got to be led by humans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much. Okay. We covered a lot of wonderful ground here, but you know, you, it's fun to meet somebody that at face value, I would have just thought, you know, marketing. Okay. Not somebody that I can fully relate to, but a. I know the breadth of your experience is, is leading to your, your journey and the way you think. But I love that advocating for this way of thinking early in the process of a company's customer journey can really help make the jobs that I do easier but also help retain more customers, grow organically. Right. So financial results. Yeah. Financially. Exactly. So thank you so much for sharing all this. We're going to share the links for your business. I know you've shared it as well, but we'll let everyone know in the show notes that is available and where can people find you talking about what you. I know. I followed your newsletter, so that's one I would recommend. Any other? I have a newsletter on LinkedIn called the. The PE CMO advisor, the private equity CMO advisor, which I try to do something every week, haven't done this week yet, so I'll have to do that. But my website is demandrevenue.com just how it sounds and my email is agrevenue. Com, so you don't have to remember to spell my last name, which I know is difficult. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Alan. I have enjoyed this conversation so much and I'm sure It'll help several other folks listening. And for all of you there, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Business of the thank you for inviting me. Great meeting you, Pero. Take care. Bye bye bye. Thanks for listening to the Business of Success. If today's conversation sparked a new way of thinking about growth, value, talent, leadership, don't forget to follow along and share this episode with someone who is building something meaningful. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Customer X Success, which is helping organizations design customer value, build better and higher impact teams, and turn success into a growth strategy. You can learn more about Customer xsuccess@www.customerxsuccess.com. i'm Parul Bindari and this is the Business of Success, where success is built, not just chased. Until next time. See you.