Wolfgang Bremer - Trust, Teams, and Tangible Impact

What my wife always tells me is that I'm a nice person at the office, but I'm not a nice person at home. And she's right. I have it in me to be nice and friendly to actually everybody. But I think life usually gets in the way. Stressful situations and things on your mind and being impatient. One of the major things I learned by becoming a dad. It's really counterproductive to be impatient even at home. Because being impatient with a child, it doesn't help you, it just makes things worse. Foreign. Hello and welcome to another episode of Brave ux. I'm Brendan Jarvis, Managing Founder of the Space in Between, the behavior based UX research partner for enterprise leaders who want an independent perspective to align hearts and minds. You can find out more about me and what we do at the Space In Between. Co NZ Here on Brave UX though, it's my job to help you to keep on top of the latest thinking and important issues affecting our field of of design. I do that by unpacking the stories, learnings and expert advice of a diverse range of world class leaders. My guest today is Wolfgang Bremer. Wolfgang is a seasoned design leader who spent the past two decades shaping products, teams and organizations at scale while never losing sight of the human side of design. Until recently, he was the Vice President of Design at Ali, a brand of the Volkswagen Group focused on electric mobility. There he helped grow a cross functional design team, embed design more deeply into the business and navigate the complexities of working inside one of the world's largest automotive companies. Before Volkswagen, Wolfgang held senior design leadership roles at SAP and Hair Technologies. Earlier in his career he designed user interfaces at Nokia, experiences that gave him a front row seat to the evolution of mobile design. He's also a sought after speaker with keynotes and panels delivered across Europe, North America and Asia from Singapore to Vienna. Known for his thoughtful people first approach to leadership, Wolfgang speaks candidly about the emotional and organizational realities of design at scale, from building shared ownership to setting the stage for teams to thrive. And now he's here with me for this conversation on Brave ux. Wolfgang, a very warm welcome to the show. Thank you so much Brandon. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. It is a pleasure to have you here and I know this has been some time in the making, so I'm glad that we're finally here. And speaking of long time in the making, I mentioned in your intro that you've been in design for over two decades, but if we were to wind back the clock now and think about your design when you were a teenager. Because I understand you started designing then and we found an old hard drive of yours and we booted that up from those years. What design projects would we discover? So I guess the first thing that comes to mind is I helped a friend back in the days, like way too long ago to design the booklet of a CD he was producing with local bands from the school and the area. And yeah, he approached me or he told me about it and I was really interested in the project and the idea to make something out of nothing, basically just make it happen somehow. And he had no knowledge in it and I didn't have much ideas about how to do it or how to approach it. And then we just sat together and we figured things out. And yeah, I think this is probably one of the most interesting things I did. And especially if I remember, I don't remember which tools I used. I'm very sure it wasn't Photoshop. It must have been something else. And I want to say that it did not support layers. So it was insane because everything you did, you really had to do really carefully and make a lot of extra copies of whatever you did. So you will be able to roll it back and try again, I guess. And the other thing I remember is it was not. I didn't use vectors really. Everything in the end was yeah, a graphic, a big graphic file, you know, so you had to work in high resolution for the printing later. And it just took ages, you know, on an old computer, whatever I had back then, I was like, wow. But there was zero complaints, you know, it was just like we didn't complain about it. It was so exciting and something new and we were trying it out and figuring out somehow, yeah, it was just like, sure, it takes whatever, 10 minutes to save something, no problem. You know, we already work on the next thing somehow, you know, sketch something out. There was no lost, it was just excitement, no complaints. We often forget that whenever we are in the timeline we were at the forefront of the technology. Whether it's the design tooling or the underlying computer or Mac or PC that's running the software. We certainly take for granted just how polished our tools and our cloud based experiences are now. So it's interesting to hear you share that early memory. I want to fast forward quite a bit now and that is to around about, I think nine years ago. And that's when you first became a father. And I've heard you talk about how fatherhood has helped you to Realize the importance of how you explain things to others. How would you describe to others how parenthood becoming a father has changed the way that you communicate and what influence, if any, that's had on the kind of leader that you've become? That's a really good question, and I'm sure the answer could fill books, and it probably does. It's complicated. Let me start by saying that what my wife always tells me is that I'm a nice person at the office, but I'm not a nice person at home, you know, and I can. And she's right. I'm not blaming her at all. And I guess it's somehow related my assumption that with, let's say, strangers or people you don't know so well, you're always trying to be friendly with or polite, whereas with family, apparently not, you know, and so there's always like these two sides, I guess. Maybe not always, but for me. And I remember I had a friend whose mother used to be a doctor, and when she would pick up her work phone, he would already tell me, and now you can hear her work voice, you know, and she sounds different than talking at home to everybody else. It's apparently just a thing many people seem to do. Why am I saying this? For me, I. I think I. I have it in me to be nice and friendly to actually everybody, of course. But I think life usually gets in the way, you know, like stressful situations and things on your mind and being impatient. And I, I don't know, like, it's a stressful world these days. And one of the major things I learned by becoming a dad is it's really counterproductive to be impatient even at home, because being impatient with a child is basically impossible. It doesn't help you, it just makes things worse. And I guess that's why parents usually recommend. It's like, try also leave 10, 15, what have you minutes earlier than you actually have to. Because whatever might will go wrong and you will simply need more time. Time, which probably also explains why parents are usually late. But I think what's important for me is that I try to remind myself. And it's not always easy to be honest to be a patient person at home and with my kids and to actually take the time to explain things instead of just saying do this, but really try to explain why do this, or more specifically, why do something in a certain way, you know, like really the reasoning. Because I know from my childhood sometimes, and from friends, you know, who are saying, yeah, I don't know, my mom Kept saying, do it because I'm your mother or because I tell you to. Like these kind of reasons, which might make sense to the parent in that moment, you know, because again, it's a stressful world. They might be in a rush and have a million other things on their minds they still have to tackle somehow, but it doesn't work with a child. You need to have some kind of explanation for things. And if you think about it, that's also totally fair. I mean, none of us would want to do something personally or professionally just because somebody else tells you because I told you so or because I'm telling you so. Do it because I say so. Especially for designers, right? I mean, we love asking the why and the why and the whys. So just saying because I tell you so, that's not really going to fly, I guess. And it's very similar with children. So you actually have to take the time to explain literally how the world works and how to best do things, and then not only explain why to do it in this specific way, but also giving a reason for these kind of things. And I think if I bring this over to, from a personal life and into the professional life, actually, that should be very similar, right? Again, I guess nobody wants to have a boss who, as I just said, just says, do this because I tell you so, but you as a person, you want to be involved, you want to understand backgrounds of things, reasons for decisions and all these kind of things. And if these are not given, then it's just really hard for people to buy into something. And I think that's totally logical because in our personal lives, it's exactly the same way. Why would you buy into something if you don't understand the full picture or if you don't see the background or you don't have a good reason for doing anything? However, and maybe I'm just unlucky here, I used to have, I would say, a lot of not so good bosses, and there was very often these kind of situations where things were not being explained properly, let's say, or backgrounds not really given. And maybe that extended sometimes into the. The culture of the company was just the way it was. And I feel nowadays, at least for some companies, it seems to, or some managers, it seems to become better. They actually want to involve the people and they want to give them background. And so I think my children and a lot of bad bosses have taught me how to do things hopefully better in a more reasonable way. Taking the time to explain things, even backgrounds, trying to explain my view on things and why I see things like that and why a decision is based on, I don't know, the information I might have at hand, which somebody else might not, these kind of things. And it might seem trivial at times, but I think it's really important for people to see the full picture and bring this back to the family side of things again. I think this is the most important thing you can do, right? You want to take the time to explain your children how everything works, why the world works, or sometimes, like these days, not really the way it should be working to help them understand what's going on around them. Because for them, the world is their family to begin with. And then maybe a daycare, a school, a circle of friends, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, right? But I think it's important, especially early on, to really be there for them, Help them explain and explore in a safe way everything around them and be able to assist them in growing into good human beings who hopefully make the right decisions at the right point in time. Which then again reflects on the professional life, which is what leaders and managers actually want from their teams and their people they support. They want them to be successful. They want to be there for them and help them, at least the good managers, I guess. And yeah, that should be the goal, I think, to really be there for them and make them the best person they can be. It's interesting to come back to what your wife told you, that you're a nice person at work and perhaps not the nicest person at home. I think it's often easier at home. It's more permissible anyway to fall into that dictatorial role than it is at work. I think we're much more conscious at work of the dynamics with our colleagues or even our team members that may report to us where it's often easier at home to fall into the just do this because I told you to do this mentality. Interesting. I've certainly observed that because you're under time pressure and all these other factors that you've spoken about. But then the same is often true at work. You are under time pressure as well. I've just found it personally more difficult at home to be the kind of rational, explanatory, patient, always kind figure. I feel it's easy to do that at work than it has at home. Of course there's learnings in there and reasons and all these other things, but I do definitely connect with that difference. And I think it's also just while I'm on this, I'm kind Of just following my train of thought here, but there was that analogy for a while that companies were like families, but I'm actually not. And I know this has been talked about elsewhere. I don't think that holds true. And I'm not sure we would want our companies to run like families. Given how I have observed most families run. I think they're probably a little bit looser and a little bit more dictatorial than people would perhaps want for their professional life as well. Absolutely. I mean, I of course heard this as well as families. You know, the latest term I heard is like more like a sports team, you know. Sure, there's terms you can relate it to. But I think coming back to the family topic, I was actually speaking to a coach a couple of times about family life and how we behave at home as a person and about my struggles and all these kind of things. And it was really interesting to actually have. And again, the same as at work. I have a coach, have a mentor to have somebody to talk to and listen who then gives honest, like, I don't say, yeah, I guess, feedback, but really shares their point of view on things, you know, and there's, there's really no good reason to be, let's say as an example, short with something with somebody at home when we can avoid being short with somebody at work, you know, because as I said, work is busy, you know, that's stressful. Many people have like, I don't know, back to back, meetings, five days a week kind of thing, you know, but still we are able to be polite most of the times and friendly most of the times and reasonable most of the times. But at home, that often is just very easily thrown overboard and I just feel it shouldn't be. And I think at least talking for me, speaking about myself is I really want to be better at these kind of things because we are, we are, my wife and I, we are raising two wonderful girls and we want them to be the best humans they can be. And we want them to like, like the one thing, the one thing my wife and I agree on, I mean, that sounds wrong. We agree a lot of things. But the one important thing about bringing up our children, which is very or most important for both of us, is that we want to raise happy children like happy human beings. You know, I don't need to have the smartest or the richest or the most successful or I don't know what kind of person as a child, but we really want our children to be happy, you know, and if I, as the Father am shot with them all the time. Wow. That is totally the opposite of what our goal or my goal actually is, you know, so how can I do this kind of stuff or behave this way if you know it's counterproductive? It just doesn't make sense. So this is one of the things I'm really trying to work on, you know, to be more like the fun dad and really take the time to help them, be there for them, just have fun with them, you know, and not always be the one, oh, you're late already, or let's get moving, come on. You know, it's like, I don't need to be the pacemaker the whole time. It's like, come on, we have to run, we have to run kind of thing. You know, I think that is. That is not fun for anybody. In the end, while we're traveling down this road. It's a delightful detour, but let's just keep going down it for. For another minute or two. When you were describing that, I couldn't help but think that willpower, if you. If we accept that willpower is finite and our human energy is finite in any given day, you've only got so much to spend. I feel that for a long while, I've over indexed on the amount of energy that I've expended on my career, and that left less energy to expend at home. And there's a number of factors, right, like the family environment's different. People aren't necessarily stuck with you for life, but it's certainly more so the case than people at work. So there's perhaps a few sort of boundaries that are not quite the same as at work in terms of behavior. And the penalties aren't as obvious, at least immediately. You might pay a downstream price for being a grumpy, grumpy dad in terms of kids that don't necessarily want to spend that much time with you when you're older. But it's not like having a team member who reports to you that could take you to HR if you overstep a boundary in terms of how you behave with them professionally. So there's a whole bunch of stuff going on. But I've certainly found that reevaluating the amount of energy I expend professionally has freed up the energy and headspace and perhaps a little bit of patience at home. And I feel like we have a expectation generally that we should be excellent in all areas of our life all of the time. And I'm not sure how grounded in reality that Expectation is I certainly have had to relax some of my expectations and. And to do that in a way that I can free up more time and space for family matters. That's such a good point. You know, it's like the finite amount of energy you actually have what to spend it on, the finite time you have with your children. How do you actually want to spend that time with them? Do you want to be the grumpy dad who always tells them what to do? You want to be the fun dad who plays with them games and makes them learn cool stuff and these kind of things? And the answer is easy, but doing it in the moment, that's sometimes really difficult. Let's go down the professional path now. I'm sure we can perhaps find ways to parallel it back to family as we go if we see fit. But one of the things, I understand that you believe when you're leading your team, and it's a starting point that you take with your team and your team members, and that starting point is, I trust you. And that seems to be your default, or it has been in the past. Now, that's quite a bold position to take with people, particularly because, well, trust is a very precious and very rare commodity. So I'm curious to understand, where did that I trust you position come from? And how do you maintain that stance, particularly when things have gone or start to go wrong? Yeah, I think trust is a very interesting concept. Right. I mean, often it's like you have to gain somebody's trust, right? To be able to be, I guess, trustworthy, which is just so odd and weird, I find. Of course, it's a different story if you meet a stranger for the first time. I wouldn't trust him with my life right away. I don't know them. But why do we assume right away the opposite kind of thing? Why do we want to have people climb ladders step by step by step, gaining more trust? It's just a really interesting concept which seems flawed if you think about it more. And honestly, years ago, I didn't think about it much. Trust was. I mean, for me, it's like I know myself. I know I can be impatient. I know I can be grumpy. I know I can be wrong. I can be right as well, of course, many times. But I was not a person who, I don't know, who felt that other people wouldn't, I don't know, do their job or, you know, wouldn't deliver or would not be answering the phone when I would call them. Like in personal life, as well as professionally, you know, so why would I have this need for a concept of trust, you know. And I think it changed significantly or for me was a bit of a wake up call during my time at Nokia when the new VP during a town hall, he mentioned this actually explicitly. He had a slide and the slide says something along the lines of like, I trust you, you do not have to gain my trust. You know, and people were, I want to say, wondering about it, you know, there was a bit of a like murmur going through the town hall, you know, people like, what does that mean? You know, it's like. And I had the feeling it was because people have this, or many people have this concept of like you have to gain trust, you cannot just trust somebody, you know. And it's really interesting if this is like, it seems to be a global thing, not just like the Germans think like this. And to me this moment was eye opening, was like, huh, that's actually an interesting statement. So it made me think, I trust you, you do not have to gain my trust. And that stuck with me and it made me think more. So whenever I thought talking to people, it was constantly in the back of my mind and I was trying to figure out what can I actually do with this in the sense of how can I show people that I trust them, how can I be there for people, how can I build their trust in me as their manager, for example? It always depends on certain situations. But years ago I took over a team. The team was not in the best place and they used to have a handful of different managers over a handful of years. So very regular change, which of course is not helpful for the team or the product or projects. Right. But it was really hard in the beginning to actually gain their trust, you know, it's like there's another new manager coming, you know, what does he now want, you know, what will his thoughts be on whatever these kind of topics, you know, and it took a while, you know, to actually break through to people via one on one conversations, via like team meetings, discussing topics, but really trying to understand the people, like the people themselves, you know, it's like not just like you are a researcher, you are a designer, you are a writer, you know, but who's the person behind this position? Who's the person behind this title? Why are you here? Why did you join the company in the first place? What intrigues you about the stuff you do day in and day out? What works well for you, what doesn't? Like, how can I get to know you as a Person like these kind of things, you know, And I just feel like making this kind of connection helps to connect with people better, understand them better, and therefore be able to work with them better and help them. Because I don't know, I guess everybody has had things to do at work which they didn't like to do or they were maybe not good at, or I don't know what. Like these kind of things, right? And often I feel, at least in my experience, that this was nothing I felt I should discuss as my manager kind of thing. But I want to be that person you can discuss things with. I want to be the person who actually wants to make your work life easier and nicer and more fun and for yourself, more successful and these kind of things. So I actually want to be there for you, but I can only be there for you if we trust each other, if we have connection somehow, if he can tell us things, things we don't like, things we like, things which are not working well as well as things which are working well and all these kind of things. And that's really interesting because as I mentioned earlier, this one VP would say this, and then a couple of years later, there was somebody who was so happy about showing me a quote they wanted to use in some kind of a presentation. It was something along the lines of trust is built in drops but lost in buckets, or something like that, you know, and it made me think again, you know, it's like again, this trust topic, you know, and why is it so easy to lose trust like in buckets? But it's so hard to build up the trust again once you've lost it, you know, I mean, I understand it, but it's like the whole concept for me is just strange. Especially, I mean, maybe especially as a designer, you know, because we keep saying, oh, you need to make mistakes, you know, fail early, fail often, blah, blah, blah, you know, only if you see that you did something wrong, you can make it right and, you know, like do the testing, the research before that you can find the faults or the flaws and make things better, you know. So it's really interesting, like the whole topic of trust. I don't know, it's just intriguing and at times just doesn't sit well with me, I must say. Well, you mentioned one on ones and I understand that as part of your management practice, one on ones are one of those meaningful opportunities that you have with your team members that you can use to, I suppose, inject some energy into the relationship or at least some enthusiasm for what it is that they've been doing as people. Now, the quality of one on ones, given what you've just described there about trust and some of the difficulties that people experience in relation to others, whether it's establishing trust or perhaps it's how quickly trust can be lost if it's, if it's breached. What have you found works for you to lay the ground for a meaningful one on one? Like is it for example, like that executive just declaring at the beginning when you start to work with people, hey, you have my trust and that's enough to get people across the line to trust you? I feel like there's some nuance here perhaps and what you have discovered as a leader that works effectively for you in those one on ones and I'm keen to understand what that is. I think one on ones are really interesting. So I have to say that I as an employee almost never had one on ones with a manager. You know, I was only exposed to this concept, I want to say like eight or 10 years ago or so, you know, and it was really eye opening to me. It's like, wait, what? My mentor wants to talk to me. What about? Did I do something wrong? Kind of thing. And I feel sometimes this is still the case for people nowadays, maybe because we are all so busy and stressed that we don't have the time to actually spend time in one on ones with people. But for me it's just really important to not only as I mentioned earlier, to get to know the person and really figuring them out and what motivates them and how I can help them, but also really to give them the time and the chance to actually spend time with me. Because I think everybody's busy and it's really difficult to make time in some situations or in many situations actually. So I find it really helpful to have these one on one conversations. And here again I'm talking about my experience with my past bad managers where this did not happen, that they did not make the time to actually have one on ones and give me background or help me grow or all these kind of things you might want to handle during a one on one. And for me it's then like, well, they didn't do it. But I strongly feel I should be doing this. I need to talk to my people, of course. I mean, how can I lead a team if I don't communicate with them? You know, it seems impossible. It probably is. It's really interesting. So when I started having, having one on ones, it was really interesting to see the reaction of people because it was at least twofold. One was unexpected, like, why does my manager want to spend time with me? I have no idea what I should say now. And what topics, like what happens sometimes during one on ones is people update me on their current tasks. You know, it's like, oh, I'm working on this and this and this and this and this, you know, and that's it, you know, which is really interesting because to me, it's like, but this is not really why I want, like, why I'm trying to spend time with you. You know, I want to see, like, how are things going for you? How are you doing? You know, is there anything I can help with? You know, and it's really interesting. And maybe it's a personality thing, which is totally fine. You know, some people are just maybe not so happy in these kind of conversations. But to me, the important aspect is, and I think it's very important to make this clear. Like in the beginning, it's like, this meeting is not really for me. I mean, it is, but this is the employees meeting, you know, like. Like the people who report to me. This is your meeting, you know, you should use this, I don't know, 30, 45, 60 minutes of time with me the way you want to actually use it and spend the time with me. What topics do you have for me? What do you want to talk about with me? What would you like to complain about? What have I done wrong? What could I have done better? Or the team or the organization or a neighboring organization or any of these kind of things. So it's really a meeting for the team member, I would say. And I'm kind of supporting and listening and taking notes and asking questions and trying to bring the meeting to a good, I don't want to say conclusion, but I want to be helpful in this kind of meeting, you know, and it's not always or rarely actually that during that one meeting things are being, I don't know, like, decided or done. But there can be things which will take a few, maybe sometimes even many one on ones, you know, because if somebody is not happy at work, then how can I help? It's not a fix like this, but how can we make things right? And then of course, we have to check in over time to see are we adjusting it the right way, did we find a good approach? Do we have to go back and make other changes? Or if it's about things like, I don't know, like promotions, for example, you know, it's not just something that happens, but how Can I be promoted? If I want to talk to my manager, this would be potentially be a topic, you know, and what can I do to actually get that kind of promotion and these kind of things. So can we make a plan? You know, it's like what do I have to fulfill? What do I have to get better at? What do I have to prove? I don't know, what do I have to do to get a promotion? And when would that be? You know, and then let's make a plan, let's talk about it. And then we check in during the one on ones how we mutually feel that person is doing. And if you're getting closer to the promotion kind of thing, you know, and of course there's other things then, you know, it's like, oh, the promotion, even the budget, all these company things which seem to be often out of the hands of the managers. But I think it's really important to spend that time to really understand the people and get them on the right path and really be helpful for them. And if that's not the case and if people are not willing to, or managers are not willing to spend time with their direct reports, I think it's just, just sad and wrong. You mentioned in there the different responses that individuals have to being put in that environment with their manager. Or I suppose you can relate to your own personal experience being with you and some people, it almost sounded like you were slightly disappointed or you felt that some individuals weren't maximizing that opportunity that they have to spend with you in that meeting. What approach have you taken to encouraging individuals to make the most out of that time? Do you, for example, give some thought starters beforehand or some guidance before they meet with you, or do you just feel your way through? And I think you mentioned you ask questions as you go, which is probably fairly sensible and hopefully fairly standard. Like what approach have you taken to the different responses that people can have when they come to meet with you for your one on ones? I think I would distinguish at least between like a structured and an unstructured approach. You know, like in some situations or in many. I would say the unstructured approach works quite well when you have a conversation about, yeah, I guess, topics you might not be aware of yet you kind of go, I don't want to say unprepared in the meeting, but you don't have many points you actually want to talk about because you're very happy with the person. You have the feeling that things are going well. Of course you will find out soon, but you Go in with these feelings, like things seem to be going okay, so I maybe have one, two kind of questions, but I let the person handle the meeting and I will just listen and reply, basically think and reply. And then I think there's the structured approach where you really go in with something like, okay, I think we need some structure here for certain reasons. It might be, as I mentioned, for like the promotional path kind of thing or a certain, let's say, unhappiness about something or concern or problem or whatever. It might be where you feel like, okay, how can we structure this? What can the next steps be? What questions do I want to ask to find out more about the current situation? Or did I go in with certain proposals already that I prep obviously for the meeting beforehand and speak with other people about the situation. What could be done to make it better basically? Or what options do we actually have? Right. So I would go in with in a very structured manner and then most likely take it like over several one on ones to trying to alleviate the problem. I guess I think what's important to me is that especially at the beginning, I don't know if I'm new at a company or I take over a new team or there's a new team member or something. I think it's very important for me to set the base somehow. It's like how I'm doing things. Why I think this one on one is a great opportunity to talk to each other, that I actually see this as their meeting. You know, I feel very happy if they want to lead the meeting and like approach or talk about anything they really want to do, you know. And I at the same time say, look, if there's not really nothing, you know, we also don't have to have the meeting or we can, we can move it, you know, I don't want to take up your time if you're like in a very tight spot currently or whatever, you know, I don't want to make it worse for you, obviously. So there's flexibility, there's trust. I'm here to listen, I'm here to help wherever I can help. So just really trying to be open and honest about what I think the meeting could be for or about or what it could be used for or useful for the employee. And yeah, I guess sometimes if it's not so the conversation may be not flowing so well, then I would have certain questions maybe about certain things going on about this person who might be connected to this kind of topic and these kind of things to at least try to get the conversation rolling. Or I would also ask for the next one on one if they would be willing to prepare something or have maybe a topic they want to talk about next time. Or sometimes even some people, I had it that they actually wanted to have less one on ones saying, I think nothing really happened since, I don't know, last week or 10 days ago, whenever we spoke last, you know, so today I would really like to focus on this kind of thing, you know, let's talk next week. Of course, no problem. You know, again, I'm just trying to be helpful. I'm not trying to get in people's way in that sense, like in a negative way, but I'm just trying to make the workspace and the workplace be a better place for them, you know, just trying to be helpful, I guess. I'm hearing that there's quite a focus on calibrating your individual approach to various individuals in a way that works for them. And also I'm picking up this idea of listening to what people are saying based on how they're responding in those meetings or to even the idea of those meetings, and perhaps also trying to infer what might not be being said in those meetings or about those meetings as well and adjusting accordingly. And you also mentioned just at the very end there, that you're not trying to get in people's way with these meetings. And I've heard you previously reflect on a time where you had to remind yourself to stop doing or stop being so hands on, on the design work from your position as the design leader and to let others take ownership of that work. And I think this is also following along this thread of calibration. Right. And the calibration here that I'm touching on is how much and when to lean in and provide more structured hands on guidance and conversely, how and when to lean out and let people take more control and ownership of what it is that they've been trusted to deliver. So I'm curious to understand, Wolfgang, from your perspective. How do you know when it's time to lean in more versus when it's time to lean out more? It can be really difficult, I would say, as designers love to say. It depends, right? So often it's, it's a feeling or you notice something if things are going well or not. Like if I take a step back. Overall, I'm, I'm a very big fan and proponent of giving people space and freedom, you know, and you know, I trust you. You run this project, you know, you got this, you know, what you're doing. If you need anything, I'm here, you know, I'm here to back you up. I'm here to open doors for you. I'm here to shield you from distractions. All these kind of things. I think this is for me the baseline kind of thing to have people be and not only feel, but be independent and really be able to tackle things and move things forward. I think it's just also really rewarding, right. I guess none of us wants to be micromanaged, so why would I micromanage somebody? I think what's important to me, I guess throughout, but especially early on in the sense of if I just got to know a new person, like a new team member or a new team or a project just has freshly started, I would like to have, I guess check ins more regularly to see the status of things. If things are being tackled in a way I would think makes sense, I guess, you know, or what I would expect. And also if, you know, like makes sense on the timeline, you know, like milestones are being hit in time and all these kind of things. And I think the further along I would say the more I would then step back, you know. And I guess during these kind of check ins then I'm the kind of person who asks questions. But like open ended questions, you know, if somebody, I don't know presents something or shows a mock up or a demo or any of these kind of things, I would ask questions, I would notice something maybe strikes me as odd or I'm not sure why something would be solved that way. And then I would basically phrase a question in that direction, trying to find out what's the reasoning for that decision basically. And in many cases it helps me to understand something better. Maybe something I didn't think of, which is great. It was like perfect. I asked a question, somebody explained, makes sense, move on, perfect. And sometimes it's that the person after hearing the question, looks at something, design for example, or a certain choice and realizes actually that might not be the best solution, maybe that we have to look at that again, which is also good because somebody hinted at something and they themselves in that moment figured out that maybe there's a better solution. Great, take note. And then work on it. And during the next check in, probably it's better or totally solved already. And I think these kind of things again show this kind of freedom I think people deserve and making choices and seeing things versus being the person who says I don't know this there doesn't make sense in a very German way. And you should do it like this and then directly give the solution kind of thing. But more of it's like, why? And is there maybe a better way of doing it? What do you think the better way is really giving the people the chance to actually come to their own conclusion and find their own solution or a solution which is, which is solving the problem. And just because in that split second I might have a solution in mind doesn't mean that's the right solution either, right? So why would I say, how about this, you know, when they are taking this project for weeks or months already and I just see something here and there, you know, and then obviously they are the expert by now. They probably find, they will probably find a better solution than my 10 second remark, which is great because that's exactly again the way it should be. So they have the freedom to make the right decisions and they are in a position to get feedback from people around them, including the manager, to get a little bit of feedback, basically. But I think coming back, it's like really, for me it's really important, this kind of freedom and giving people the responsibility of, of moving things forward by themselves. Because I just think it's the right thing to do. It's what I would like or how I would like to be treated. And I guess most people, and it's just really rewarding when you push something through, like end to end, or even if it's just a small thing somewhere, it just feels really good, right? You deliver something, you make something, and this is now being used by somebody else, you know, and it just really works well. So I think people should be proud of what they're doing and I hope that I can enable people to have this feeling more often. You spoke about freedom there in terms of the freedom that the practitioners have over the work that they're presenting and the choices that they make subsequent to any feedback that you might have. But there's also, I think there's an undercurrent here of humility that you're deploying and the way in which you're managing those situations. And it's the humility to make the choice to provide a question. And I don't mean like a weaponized version of a question because you can ask questions that are actually statements like why didn't you do it this way? Or well, that's probably the best one I can come up of on the fly. You're asking genuine questions to better understand why decisions being made because you've got the humility to know that they are closer to the work than you are. And you might not have all of the context that you need to assess something accurately before providing feedback on it. So I think that that's a beautiful takeaway, just the way in which you're deploying questions when you're putting them to practitioners. And I think there's also a deeper humility there that perhaps strikes at the tension that some people can feel when they move from practitioner to manager. And that is to acknowledge with humility that you're no longer the practitioner. And that is something that people who are good at the craft before they become managers can often struggle with. And that is stepping away from the hands on part of the work. Now, you've also, in some previous things that you've shared. I think you mentioned opening doors there a little earlier on in our conversation in terms of the way you frame your philosophy of leadership. So opening doors for others. And I've also heard you talk about comparing leadership to doing the dishes. And what did you mean by that comparison? How is leadership like doing the dishes? So if I take a step back, I used to be a hands on designer. I do designs and I have an outcome in the end, I create something out of nothing, I guess. And I talked with people in the past who said for them it's the hardest to be a hands on designer. And they are sitting to make the first, let's say, brush stroke. They have an empty canvas and there's like, oh dear, how do I start? Where do I start? What do I do? Everything is empty. And for me it's the opposite. It's like, oh, it's great, it's opportunity, everything is right. I can start no matter where. It's like a menu bar, top left, whatever logo, I don't know, you know, So I feel there's opportunity there at the end when I create something and no matter if it's like a small feature or full blown something, you know, in the end there's something there and it comes with this feeling of, you know, being fulfilled, I guess in the sense of like what I mentioned earlier, being proud of something, I created something, it looks good, I like it. Maybe other people, hopefully other people like it and enjoy using it, you know, but this nice feelings, like I accomplished something today, even if it's, I don't know, a small thing, but I did something, this is great. And I feel as a hands on designer, there is more opportunity to actually have that kind of feeling. Because again, you create something and then it's there and you can look at it and people can use it and fantastic. I find as a leader, the leadership that changes dramatically because, I mean, depending on yourself, I guess, the company, the culture and all these kind of things, how hands on you are or not. But I guess in many places a team lead or a manager or leader overall is not very hands on anymore. So there is, or at least for me, often there is this lack of accomplishment in the sense of, well, what did I do today? I spent eight hours in meetings. Fantastic. And yes, I'm sure I did stuff there, not just twiddling my thumbs. I convinced other people to do something. I maybe got more budget for something, I pushed something, maybe I made a new hire, which is great. I got somebody a promotion, I did things, hopefully things went into the right direction for what I plan to do. But still, at the end of the day, like after eight hours, it can often feel not very fulfilling. You know, it's like eight hours of meetings, online meetings, right? And just not having this thing at the end. You can look at like a hands on designers. Like I created this button, you know, like Steve Jobs used to say, the button looks so great you want to lick it great. You know, like I had an eight hour meeting day and, and I don't know what to do with that. I'm sure I nudged things, but it just doesn't feel like I did anything. That's how I feel. And I hear this from other people as well who are in managerial roles or in leadership roles or these kind of things. And what I meant by doing the dishes is literally doing the dishes in the evening, cleaning up the kitchen a bit, take the stuff away from the table, filling the dishwasher, washing a pan. You know, it's actually giving me this kind of feeling of accomplishment, which is really silly if you think about it, right? But in the end, I can see the table downstairs now is clean. I already set it for breakfast tomorrow, which is great. You know, I washed the wok we use for dinner. I cleaned the stovetop, you know, spotless, perfect. And I can see it. I can stand there for like a few seconds in the kitchen after I'm done with this. And I look around, it's like, this looks good. I'm happy with this. You know, I did something as small as it might be or seem, you know, spending, I don't know, 20 minutes, 30 minutes in the kitchen doing this, not even making the meal, just literally cleaning up just gives me this feeling of like I actually did something, something I can see and touch, you know, something somebody else will see tomorrow morning that actually there's a set table and there's not crumbs everywhere and the pan is back in the drawer and these kind of things. It just somehow helps me in the evenings to see like, yes, I did something, I accomplished something. And it's silly, right? When you think about it, I mean if you lead a team of, I don't know, 5, 10, 20, whatever, 60 people, you're obviously doing things, you're obviously accomplishing things. It's just different on different levels from a hands on designer, you know, and maybe it's, it helps to see things more long term. Not just like, yes, I did not design a button now, but I grew a team from I don't know, two to 80 people or something and I set up whole new structures and organization. I enabled people to who actually have design as part of the product development process. I don't know, I created a research studio and have people actually mandatory do research for anything they want to ship or I made connections to other parts of a company to connect our researchers, their researchers or our writers with their writers or I don't know what. But these are often long term things. So yes, usually managers and leaders also accomplish stuff, but it's just on a different level of time. I want to say like timescale, you know, it's not immediate, it's delayed, but usually it's bigger, I guess, I don't know, it's complicated. It's almost like it's a different level of tangibility as well. Right. It's very obvious once you've pushed a few pixels around to go, hey, look at my beautiful layout. Where it might take to your point 6 months to achieve the setup of a new design studio, to build the relationships with the different partners that you need to. And it's, it's perhaps less tangible, perhaps more so now that we're working a lot of us anyway remotely. You don't even have the physical satisfaction of seeing the space that you might have created prior to the pandemic when we were working in a different way. And I also hopefully that this, this is not a erroneous thread to draw here or to pull on and that is that I understand that some of Peter Merholt's work on design Org org design is something that may have helped you to understand better your role as a leader within the design organization and also that the active design is very much alive in designing the environment in which your designers can grow and thrive, if that's correct. And yeah, absolutely. Okay, great. So that I am kind of heading down the right path here. So given that that's true, in your experience, what are some of the most important aspects or perhaps the most consequential aspects that you've found that deserve more energy than say, others do? From your perspective as an executive design leader, where do you choose to invest most of your energy into designing that environment? It probably depends on the company and the org and the people around you and the state of things, I guess the company, the culture, the design team is at. But I think it's important for me to, to get the design team to a stage where it's being recognized within the company that people are actually there to help and make things overall better and not just to make things pretty, that there's much more there, like research and why it's important and all these kind of things to really set something up for the company overall, to hopefully succeed. And that in a shorter time span and by spending less money, I guess. But overall, I think it's really setting up a team in a meaningful way to support everybody else in the company around that team and to free yourself up as the leader of that team to basically already plan the next steps, what has to be done or what should be done to make the team the org, the company more successful, to scale it, to think about what's going on, what the next steps should be. I think a big part of that is also to evangelize within the company what is design, what does it all entail and why is it so important and what do we actually do? You know, and to actually have this conversation with people on every level, you know, like no matter if you're the leader or a team lead or a manager or a hands on designer, designer, researcher, writer, whatever, but to have these conversations and spread the knowledge you have throughout the company and among your peers. I guess it sounds like. Wolfgang, you're still surprised by the sounds like the misconceptions that other organizations within the wider enterprise have about design's purpose and perhaps benefits to them. Absolutely. I mean, I had a couple of years ago, I was in a meeting with somebody and it was about a hardware project and the person was saying something along the lines of, oh yeah, and the design team will deal with the ux. And I asked them like, what do you mean by the UX in this case? And their response really baffled me because they said, oh, everything that's on a screen. And I was like, but we're talking about the hardware project. Yes, it has a screen, but there's more to UX than it happening on a screen. But that person did not know that or did not make the connection to what ux, I guess, actually stands for and how important that is for the end user, especially in a hardware project. So it really took me a second to think how I should react now and what my next steps should be. So it was really like, oh, I'm surprised. And now what can I do about it? I should educate that person, but not in this setting here now. And I should make sure that their peers are also aware of what design and UX actually is and stands for and how we work and why we should be working on these things together to overall have a great user experience in the end and these kind of things. So it drew like the curtains away from my eyes in a certain area of the company, which I wouldn't have been aware of otherwise. So I guess it was a good thing that it happened so I could actually take steps to like, okay, we have to do something here, meaning not design something for somebody, but really help people understand what we actually do and why the stuff we do can be really, really great for them because they want to build something and we of course, all want to build the right thing the first time around and to meet expectations of the user in the end. Right. It can be really baffling sometimes. But I think it's important that we take this with grace and really don't say it's like, oh, we are the designers, we are doing the stuff. But no, let me help you understand why we think this is important. Let me help you overall, as a person, as a team, as an org, to make better decisions through research, for example, early on, to design and produce things via prototypes in a way that you can actually see it and feel it and try it out and then design it in a way that meets the expectations, while over time save time and money, which is your budget, basically. So these kind of things. There was a situation in one place, but I'm sure there's other companies out there where people work in certain positions. They might simply not have had the chance to be exposed to that kind of information or to this kind of organizational setup, let's say. And I think it's really important for us to be the guiding people to say, hey, no problem, let me help you understand it because it's actually for your benefit. Well, there's a lot in that example, I want to zero in on the word grace that you used there in that situation, because I can almost see you sitting in that meeting, when that person is saying that the design team will handle the UX and then you clarifying that they meant that that's the on screen experience, when obviously it sounded like the capability of the design team was much more broad than that and could have been much more valuable. But the key thing I feel in that example, and this is, I think leadership, like a really good insight into your leadership, is it's not just what you can tell people, it's also how and when you tell them that. And you mentioned that you realized that the forum in which you were receiving the information wasn't the right forum for you to then share back exactly how the design team could help and to clarify that sort of incorrect assumption you chose, it sounded like, to have that conversation with them separately. And that to me is a really great example of handling a now evident roadblock to design's ability to serve the organization, the wider organization, and how you manage to make that work. Now, I'm conscious of time and I just want to finish with one final question here for you, if I may. And that is, if we take a reflective lens now and you think back about your career from going from designing flyers to global design leadership in the here and now, what's the belief that's best served your career? I never set out to be a design leader or leading global teams or any of that really. For me it's like, try to do the right things, don't be a jerk. Yeah. And think about what you really want to do. And I guess the things you enjoy doing is probably worth doing more of. I mean, it's very simple. I guess life advice, which can probably be applied again to professional and personal life. But I think it's really about, for me, it's not so much planning the future professionally, but really to think about the now. What situation are we in, how are we handling this? And then, you know, what are the next steps to take and how can we get into the position which would be nice to be in, I don't know, one, three, six months from now, you know, and what are really the steps to take to get there? I must admit I obviously grew into the roles I have been in and I'm in currently, but takes time, you know, and I make mistakes just like everybody else. And also on this, you can ask my wife. And it's just things that we learn over time, you know, and hopefully we learn through role models, you know, maybe some peers of former managers or somebody else you see in a town, town hall, you know, like I Don't know, like some other manager, you, even an executive. I think it's really important to have these kind of role models to learn from and see how things can be done really well, things that can actually inspire you and stay with you for the rest of your life. You have it in the back of your mind, like back then this person said this and this about the trust for example, but also other things. And then you try to apply these things over time and you'll remember them and you'll get better at stuff. And in the beginning it can be scary and frightening to, I don't know, get into leadership role, but it can also be really rewarding. But that not only depends on oneself, but very much on the surrounding. And I think we often talk about, it's like, oh, how successful people are and how amazing everything is. But I think it's also very important to keep in mind that not everything is possible everywhere. You know, I've been in situations and companies where I felt like, no, this is not a good spot to be in and I don't really want to be here. So how do I get out of this? You know, I've also had conversations with other people who said, you know, it's like, oh, I spent so much time trying to, I don't know, get my team or the organization to acknowledge design more and I keep failing. I keep failing and I keep giving advice and like, oh, did you try this? Did you try that? And anything I could think of, the person said, yeah, I tried this already. Then I look at them, that is years ago. And I said, not every company can change. Maybe you're not in the right place. I mean, as sad as that sounds, but it's unfortunately true. It's not just up to you, but it's up to you, your manager, your surroundings, the company, the culture you are in. I love to say everything's possible, but sometimes maybe it's not. And I think we really have to acknowledge that from time to time and then also practice some self care in the sense of okay, what can I do here now? Can I really do something? And if I can do something, within what time frame should I be doing it? And at what time do I really say or at what point do I really say, this is not it, maybe I should look beyond the telerant and do something else instead. I'm also hearing from you in the way that you described that there's an aspect of choosing who do I want to be in those moments where I might realize that I can't achieve everything that I want. And it ties back to something that I heard a long time ago and I'm not sure who originated it, but it's that people in your career, perhaps more broadly in your life, won't remember all the specifics of the things that you did together in terms of the process and the outputs and all the things that we think are really important. The thing that they remember the most is how you made them feel. And I definitely get a strong sense of that from how you've relayed the experiences that you've had as a design leader today. That is so true. I mean, you summed it up perfectly. No notes. Well, on that note, Wolfgang, this has been a thoughtful and thought provoking conversation. It's definitely been a great way for me to start my day and I know it's very late to there for you, so I just wanted to convey my deep thanks for you for being such a great role model today, for so generously sharing your stories and insights with me. Thank you so much, Bren. It was really a pleasure being on the show and yeah, big thank you. You're most welcome. It's definitely my pleasure. And Wolfgang, if people want to connect with you, they want to keep up to date with your career and your contributions to the design field. What, what's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, I used to be on Twitter but I'm not anymore since Facebook over. So people can find me on my website, Bremmer Co or on bluesky, on threads, Instagram, all the other places, I guess. Great, thank you Wolfgang. And to everyone who's tuned in, it's been great having you here with us as well. Everything that we have covered will be in the show notes, including where you can find Wolfgang and all of the things that we've spoken about. If you've enjoyed the show and you want to hear the more great conversations like this with world class leaders in UX research, product management and design. Don't forget to leave a review on the show. Subscribe so it turns up every two weeks and tell someone else, maybe just one other person who you feel would get value from these conversations at depth. If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn. There's a link to my profile at the bottom of the show notes or you can head on over to my website which is TheSpaceInBetween Co NZ. That's TheSpaceInBetween Co NZ. And until next time, keep being brave.